201: Tea, Drugs and Jesus - The Flag Follows Trade

WEBVTT

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Thus among the Chinese, the most ancient and

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from long experience the wisest of nations. Honor

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does not descend, but it ascends. If a man from

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his learning, his wisdom, is promoted by the

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emperor to the rank of Mandarin, his parents

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are immediately entitled to all the same ceremonies

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of respect from the people. This ascending honor

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is useful to the state, as it encourages parents

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to their children a good and useful education.

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Benjamin Franklin 1784. Now, where did Benjamin

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Franklin get these ideas about China from? Well,

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you know, this is the Enlightenment period and

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so people had a tendency when writing and trying

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to promote certain agendas to kind of latch on

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to little factoids about other places far away

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that apparently had a higher culture, cultural

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level, than the West, particularly amongst moral

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issues. So what Franklin's trying to do is he's

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trying to promote an idea of morality using China

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as an example. But as we'll find out, this is

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not exactly what the realities were about China.

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And America would be constantly over the next

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200 years butting its head up against fictions

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about China which they had difficulty reconciling.

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Welcome to the United States of Amnesia. You

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found us. Thank you. We are the podcast that

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reminds us of what we have forgotten. It is often

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said that history repeats itself. Mark Twain

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allegedly said that history doesn't repeat itself,

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but it rhymes. Ecclesiastes probably said it

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best in chapter 1 verse 9, quote, everything

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that has been will be again everything that has

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been done will be done again there is nothing

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new under the Sun close quote but over time many

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topics have become clouded by biases and oversimplifications

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or have become mythologized and now are misunderstood

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misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history perhaps or even learning nothing

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at all and that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. Your hosts are Marshall

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Newman, Mike Mendenhall, and myself, Blake Henke.

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In this podcast, we will cover topics of history,

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politics, and religion, and how they interact,

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and also how they relate to modern day events

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and themes. We will try to cut through the biases

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over simplifications and myths. to learn better

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lessons from the past and to see what they can

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tell us about the present and maybe even the

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future. Today we are beginning a new series involving

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the history we have forgotten in terms of our

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relationship with China from its beginnings all

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the way to Richard Nixon's trip there in the

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early 1970s. We are going to explore the impact

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of tea, opium, God, railroads, eugenics, racism,

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and even the sale of sea cucumbers have had on

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how the U .S. and China have responded to each

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other. Also, the fate of so -called experts when

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they are wrong and the penalties faced by real

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experts when they are right. In the first episode

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here, we set the stage for what is to come by

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exploring the environment in which the United

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States became involved in the China trade in

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the 19th century, including China's isolationism

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and stagnation, Britain and the East India Company,

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tea and silver, silk and porcelain, and of course,

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opium. In the 18th century, Enlightenment figures

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like Franklin frequently employed anecdotes from

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places like China. to promote what we could call

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the Enlightenment agenda. Very little facts were

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known about China and other places around the

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world, places such as Persia and other exotic

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areas. And then so much the better, because these

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imaginary places, because that's essentially

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what they were, promoted the ideals that the

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Enlightenment leaders wanted to promote in Europe

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and America. In Franklin's case, he was promoting

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a more educated citizenry and a meritorious,

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a meritorious agenda for the New Republic. Commendable

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goals, but no one looking at the history of the

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Qing dynasty would assert that education was

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a universal goal for Chinese parents, most of

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whom were were barely getting by as subsistence

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farmers and were lucky to be able to survive.

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much less pay for costly teachings of the Chinese

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classics. This was the moral education that Franklin

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was referring to. We will address in the course

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of this series what happens if one succeeds in

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the process and more importantly what happens

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if someone fails in his attempt to join the civil

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service along with the body count. And again,

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turning to the actual history of China at the

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time, the Mandarins were probably no more moral

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than the other group of officials at the time,

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which is to say they were corrupt and easily

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bribed in most cases. There were of course some

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sections, and we will cover a noteworthy example.

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This is not to insult Franklin for suggesting

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that a higher moral order existed in China, but

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to demonstrate that throughout American history,

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Americans have had ideas about China that have

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had nothing to do with the reality of the place.

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Most impressions of China and what China wanted

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in Franklin's time were derived from popular

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pieces of porcelain, which the Chinese exported

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to the United States and the world. The enlightened

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vision of China would not be the last mis - misconception

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and as we will see in recent history, China is

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not the only place that the United States got

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wrong. We hope to show that there are certain

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common elements associated for these times when

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the United States frankly is more interested

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in a compelling narrative than actual facts.

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I think that in fairness to Franklin and in fairness

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to Americans who are getting China wrong as you're

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describing, right, I think in fairness we have

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to acknowledge though that There is a history,

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a tradition, a culture in China of scholarship.

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Yes. And in fact, thinking back to my 10th grade

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Asian history days and studies since then, there

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was a large and very, I suppose, originally very

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efficient bureaucracy, important bureaucracy

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anyway, that ran the sprawling Chinese empire

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dating back into ancient times. And to become

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a civil servant in this bureaucracy, you had

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to pass a test. And it was a pretty rigorous

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test, right? Scholarship was involved. Three

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days. Three days. And if you stood for the exam

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and if you passed it, you then joined the bureaucracy.

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And this is a status symbol in China to be part

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of that bureaucracy. It doesn't have the negative

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connotation that modern Americans use for the

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term bureaucracy. But I digress. The point just

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is that we have to acknowledge that. China did

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have this aspect of its history, its culture,

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and its traditions. And if you heard about that

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and were aware of it, that would help feed your

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opinion of China as being a place of mandarins

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and these other things that you're bringing up,

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right? Yes. In fact, my understanding too is

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that the bureaucracy, becoming a civil servant,

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was not necessarily a class -based thing. Not

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intrinsically it wasn't but you kind of had to

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have money to pay for classes in order to become

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familiar with these Confucian era classics so

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in effect you had to be I guess at least middle

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-class to be able to afford this kind of thing

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or something right or maybe more you had to be

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kind of more because there's not much of a middle

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-class and there's hardly any middle -class Yeah,

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right. Yeah, so I'm just I'm just trying to put

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it some context there though that There is there

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are some valid reasons to have at least thought

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this about China Yes, it's not like and I mean

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we're gonna see this happen again and again Over

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the time period that we're gonna be dealing with.

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Yes, there is valid fact -based Sources for people's

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impressions. However, what what becomes dangerous

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is people are going to take that and run with

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it and they're going to be attempting to simplify

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what is a very complex and ancient society and

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in the course of that get what is wrong about

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it because they're not necessarily thinking these

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things through. The kind of evidence that they'll

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be using is somewhat questionable. And if you

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kind of like try to turn this around and say,

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well, I'm going to go look at Sevra pottery and

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get my ideas about Rococo France from that, that

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would be ridiculous for anybody to do this. But

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whereas people are familiar with France in the

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18th century, they're not necessarily as familiar

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with what's going on in China. And some of this

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is not necessarily willful ignorance. It's also

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attempts by the Chinese to control any potential

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contamination that they might get from the West

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that would upset the stability of society. And

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that does sound kind of paranoid, but as we're

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going to find out, well, it kind of did. They

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were kind of a little bit right about wanting

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to kind of keep the West at arm's length because

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of what happens when the West intrudes upon the

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Middle Kingdom. There were two compelling fictions

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involving the United States that pre -war isolationists

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clung to. This was that the United States at

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some unspecified time did not venture out into

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the corrupt world and minded its own business

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in its own hemisphere guarded by its two oceans,

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its inhabitants practicing the virtues of yeoman

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farmers and pursuing manifest destiny in line

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with the wishes of both the founding fathers

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and presumably God. As we're hoping to demonstrate,

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the reality is somewhat different. Trade has

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always been a component of the United States.

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Trade with Europe, trade with Asia. The need

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to expand United States exports has driven the

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United States to venture abroad and has shaped

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U .S. policy. That's why we're so insistent on

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freedom of the seas and have been since the republic

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was founded. Exactly. Because seas are the main

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avenue of commerce particularly then then and

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now then and now yes i mean there are other ways

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around this but definitely this is this is where

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if we i mean a lot of people dismiss this and

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saying it's just pure uh imperialism it's not

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you know it's not like we're limiting we're insisting

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on this as a as a right for ourselves and nobody

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else it's everybody gets the same right as far

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as it goes here but kind of like uh And this

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is almost part of our inheritance from being

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a colony of Britain and Britain's mercantile

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traditions that were kind of in full flower in

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the 18th century. America was a maritime power

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and this meant it was very much a part of the

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world. And it's not, you know, the idea that

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we were kind of living our own best lives cut

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off from that world is just nonsense. And hopefully

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we'll see what develops and how that fact is

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just proven in this episode. Because while we're

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not seeking overseas territories, not yet, gaining

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control of North America was enough to keep us

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busy in the 19th century. The United States was

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definitely involved in the world despite a lack

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of understanding of various parts of that world.

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In this episode, we are going to be looking at

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how the United States became increasingly involved

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in China, in the China trade, and just what it

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meant for both countries and how some of these

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actions still resonate today. The Chinese, whereas

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we have forgotten What happened in the 19th century

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and we don't I don't think that the average American

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knows much about How the United States interacted

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with China in the 19th century? This is still

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a big deal over in China. This is the century

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of unequal treaties which propelled a revolution

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beginning that overthrew the imperial dynasty

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the imperial Qing dynasty and then led to the

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communist revolution so In the aftermath of the

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American Revolution, the United States found

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itself independent but also excluded from Britain's

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imperial mercantile system. It was cut off from

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the profitable pre -revolutionary trade with

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the West Indies. A lot of people think when looking

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at the United States and the revolution that

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that the 13 colonies were like this this major

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economic powerhouse that Britain mismanaged.

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Well the big economic powerhouse was the West

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Indies because the West Indies produced sugar

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and this was white gold. We had various things

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that we were producing but we were in no way

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in the same class as the West Indies and we were

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part and parcel of the empire with, that was

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an important part of our trade over in the 18th

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century. Now the United States after the Revolution

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was certainly free to buy all the goods it wanted

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to from Britain, but selling items We were kind

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of cut off. Well, we didn't really have a manufacturing

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base of any kind yet. That was very significant.

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We had to import most of the finished goods we

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wanted. Yes, but raw materials is what we are

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exporting at that time. We are exporting raw

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materials, right. You know, and there are things

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like lumber, things like With trade with Russia,

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we were actually exporting some naval stores

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during the 18th and night late 18th and 19th

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century So things for the Navy like sail cloth

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and various other things like that were we were

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exporting But by and large it is raw materials

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is what we're exporting This would pick up and

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change when when cotton becomes king because

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we were a major trade Partner with Britain, but

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this did not happen until after the war of 1812

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and with the Industrial Revolution Well, let

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me ask this after the American Revolution. Yes,

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we were cut off from Trade some of the trade

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with with Britain. Yes, he's selling to me. Yeah.

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Now was was this Were these policies that were

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enacted by yes the British This was a way of

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kind of like saying okay, you think you're independent

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Well, we'll show you that you're not necessarily

00:15:57.639 --> 00:15:59.639
as independent as you'd like to be, and it's

00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:01.659
a way of kind of trying to maintain leverage.

00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.539
You know, there is this notion that, yeah, you're

00:16:05.539 --> 00:16:08.740
independent, but maybe you're not. And in addition,

00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.539
you have to understand the mercantilist mindset

00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:14.279
of the time too, right? I mean, the idea in,

00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:16.100
I know in the British Empire, and presumably

00:16:16.100 --> 00:16:19.039
other empires as well at the time, the idea was

00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.860
that your colonies were important. for extraction

00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:24.860
purposes, right? You wanted raw materials from

00:16:24.860 --> 00:16:27.639
your colonies. You could use those raw materials

00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:29.639
to produce finished goods. You can manufacture

00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:31.440
things like furniture or whatever back in the

00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.600
home country, then export that back to your colonies,

00:16:33.740 --> 00:16:36.379
right? Now we were this upstart colony that had

00:16:36.379 --> 00:16:39.840
broken away, but when you think about the overall

00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.179
mechanicalist idea of the economics of the British

00:16:42.179 --> 00:16:44.460
empire, what they were trying to achieve by having

00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:47.399
an empire economically, it made sense to treat

00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.600
us as an upstart. Calling you that broke away,

00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:51.299
which is what Marshall's describing right, you

00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:54.519
know, so Sell them finished goods and import

00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.080
raw materials from them. That's how I had no

00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:59.259
idea That's how Britain gets wealthy is by doing

00:16:59.259 --> 00:17:01.419
that. Yes, that was the thinking of the time,

00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.620
right? I should be selling you you should be

00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:05.279
sending me the wood I should be making the furniture

00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.640
and selling it back to you at a profit And that

00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.099
was the thinking and this thinking is what is

00:17:10.099 --> 00:17:13.529
gonna drive British policy which is linked with

00:17:13.529 --> 00:17:18.910
US policy in China Because Britain was very sensitive

00:17:18.910 --> 00:17:24.569
as were we to a sort of like imbalance in in

00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:27.869
the in in Trade arrangements we did not want

00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:31.250
to have a trade deficit Where more money was

00:17:31.250 --> 00:17:33.930
flowing over to a country that we were buying

00:17:33.930 --> 00:17:35.670
things from or the British were buying things

00:17:35.670 --> 00:17:39.569
from and so we're constantly both countries are

00:17:39.569 --> 00:17:43.160
looking for ways to avoid that. And it was a

00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.500
hopeless situation just given the trade dynamics

00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:50.200
which we'll get into later on at the time. But

00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:55.720
this is kind of what, this is the economic sureties.

00:17:56.059 --> 00:17:59.319
These are the things that people paid a great

00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.400
deal of attention to and it drove policy throughout

00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.000
the period that we're dealing with. You see what

00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:12.779
happened with America, What we ended up doing

00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:15.720
and this is this might be a topic for another

00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.559
another episode, but we started going and trying

00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:24.940
to get in with trading partners over in Europe

00:18:24.940 --> 00:18:27.759
and in the Middle East particularly the Ottoman

00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.240
Empire This in turn leads to us developing a

00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.529
Navy believe it or not because when you start

00:18:34.529 --> 00:18:36.849
sending ships out you might encounter things

00:18:36.849 --> 00:18:40.710
such as pirates or hostile countries so you need

00:18:40.710 --> 00:18:44.250
something to defend them. That's kind of one

00:18:44.250 --> 00:18:47.069
side of the story but what happens with China,

00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:50.049
China becomes like this little engine that that

00:18:50.049 --> 00:18:55.400
affects maritime technology ultimately. There's

00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:58.220
also a very interesting dynamic about how both

00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:00.599
countries, both Britain and the United States,

00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:07.539
attempted to leverage and run this whole association.

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:11.559
So essentially, we are looking in the aftermath

00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.299
of the revolution, because we're broke, and the

00:19:14.299 --> 00:19:19.259
government is being funded by Tariffs. Tariffs,

00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:23.240
yes. Not so much in the early stages, because

00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.480
there's not much of a government either, but

00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:31.279
this is kind of like a progressive thing that's

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:34.799
happening as far as the United States is going.

00:19:35.180 --> 00:19:37.660
But there is a need for trade. There is a need

00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:40.220
for money. There is a need to kind of rebuild

00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:44.599
the economy. And this is kind of what's going

00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:49.250
to be driving America's relationship with the

00:19:49.250 --> 00:19:53.829
world in an economic sense in the early days

00:19:53.829 --> 00:19:57.869
of, right after the revolution in the early days

00:19:57.869 --> 00:20:05.230
of Republic. So new markets are necessary and

00:20:05.230 --> 00:20:08.589
initially this leads to us going to the Ottoman

00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:13.289
Empire. Why? Because it's close. But in 1784,

00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:16.109
the same year that Franklin is making his remarks

00:20:16.109 --> 00:20:20.329
about mandarins, There is the first voyage of

00:20:20.329 --> 00:20:24.910
a U .S. merchant ship to China. This is the Empress

00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:28.869
of China and it set sail from New York City on

00:20:28.869 --> 00:20:32.569
22 February 1784. This is Washington's birthday

00:20:32.569 --> 00:20:34.589
and it was not by accident that this happened

00:20:34.589 --> 00:20:38.190
on that particular day. It arrived in Canton

00:20:38.190 --> 00:20:42.329
or Guangzhou as we now call it in August six

00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:46.309
months later. For purposes of convenience, I'm

00:20:46.309 --> 00:20:49.609
going to refer to the port as Canton, since that

00:20:49.609 --> 00:20:51.450
is what it would refer to in the time that we

00:20:51.450 --> 00:20:56.970
are talking about. Canton was the only port city

00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:59.549
in Imperial China that was open to the West.

00:21:00.410 --> 00:21:03.150
It was illegal to teach a Westerner Chinese,

00:21:03.609 --> 00:21:06.990
and these two factors ensured that the West remained

00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:12.930
generally ignorant about China, both in big issues

00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:16.470
and small. They knew what they could buy in Canton,

00:21:16.630 --> 00:21:19.769
what they could get in Canton. They didn't know

00:21:19.769 --> 00:21:23.450
much about what life was like there because everyone

00:21:23.450 --> 00:21:26.809
is restricted to this one port city. And that's

00:21:26.809 --> 00:21:29.609
not just, there are something like 16 nations,

00:21:29.609 --> 00:21:32.589
I believe, that were involved actively in the

00:21:32.589 --> 00:21:37.369
China trade, even countries such as Sweden that

00:21:37.369 --> 00:21:39.150
you wouldn't necessarily think were big players

00:21:39.150 --> 00:21:42.869
over in Asia there. But the Empress of China

00:21:42.869 --> 00:21:45.170
was to make its return voyage back to New York

00:21:45.170 --> 00:21:49.910
on 11 May 1785. Just think about how long that

00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:54.410
is, 15 months later. This successful voyage proved

00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:57.869
profitable, earning its investors a profit of

00:21:57.869 --> 00:22:03.819
$30 ,727, a significant sum at the time. It probably

00:22:03.819 --> 00:22:05.720
would not be an overstatement to compare the

00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:08.220
voyage of the Empress of China with the U .S.

00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:10.660
space race to the moon in the 1960s. The voyage

00:22:10.660 --> 00:22:13.039
itself was certainly a source of pride on the

00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:14.839
part of the founding fathers with both Jefferson

00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:18.220
and Madison taking interest in the voyage. Jefferson,

00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:20.880
who is the U .S. ambassador to France at the

00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.740
time, sent a lengthy account to the French foreign

00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:29.700
minister celebrating this American triumph. source

00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:32.460
of pride because it proved we could do something

00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:37.900
difficult like this. This involves sailing down

00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:41.900
the coast of South America, over into the Pacific,

00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:46.180
and then charting a course for Canton, which,

00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.660
Canton is actually the closest port to both Europe

00:22:49.660 --> 00:22:53.789
and the United States in China. So that's also

00:22:53.789 --> 00:22:56.250
a reason why it became popular. No Panama Canal

00:22:56.250 --> 00:22:58.369
yet. No Panama Canal yet. That didn't open until

00:22:58.369 --> 00:23:01.450
1914, I believe, right? Yeah, right on the eve

00:23:01.450 --> 00:23:03.490
of World War I. World War I, yeah. So you had

00:23:03.490 --> 00:23:05.690
to go all the way around Cape Horn, and that's

00:23:05.690 --> 00:23:07.930
dangerous water, so it's actually a dangerous

00:23:07.930 --> 00:23:10.029
voyage as well. Yes. Very stormy waters down

00:23:10.029 --> 00:23:11.430
there. So it's quite an achievement to be able

00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:15.549
to do that. But the profits could be vast if

00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:17.410
you were successful. What year was this again?

00:23:17.609 --> 00:23:20.930
This was 18? So 1784. 1784. Let's see if we can

00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:23.920
get a... idea of how much $30 ,000 was worth.

00:23:24.299 --> 00:23:32.119
There are calculators for that. $30 ,000 in 1780

00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:38.359
is worth about $707 ,000 in 2025. So that shows

00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:44.079
you how profitable that voyage was. This also

00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:51.000
inspires not just voyages out of New York City

00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:55.980
but also the China trade spread to places like

00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:59.339
Boston and also the city of Salem and if anybody's

00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:03.740
ever in Salem a great opportunity to kind of

00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:07.059
look at the China trade is in the Peabody Essex

00:24:07.059 --> 00:24:10.440
Museum. which is located there. It basically

00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.519
features a lot of treasure trove of information

00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.559
about the early days of the China trade and also

00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.839
the history of whaling. So if you're a bit of

00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:23.420
a maritime geek, here is your museum. It's kind

00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:27.400
of funny because they have stuff about, they

00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.700
have like a whole Chinese house that they brought

00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:32.220
over, somebody brought over that you can kind

00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:34.819
of walk through, a merchant's house. But they've

00:24:34.819 --> 00:24:39.460
also got like all sorts of sailing. paraphernalia

00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:41.319
as well. That's interesting because you often

00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:43.000
hear about the whalers from New England, but

00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:45.000
not so much the China trade in my experience.

00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:49.440
It being from New England. Yeah, but there is

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.019
plenty, if you actually go up in Massachusetts,

00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.920
there's plenty of evidence about that up there,

00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.039
particularly in some of these old port cities

00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:20.740
that ran ships over to to China. Let's talk a

00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:24.029
little bit about Canton. which is going to be

00:25:24.029 --> 00:25:27.190
the site of most of the action in this episode.

00:25:27.670 --> 00:25:30.369
So Canton is historically the terminus of the

00:25:30.369 --> 00:25:33.970
old Silk Road, so its association with the West

00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:38.329
goes back centuries. And again, like I said,

00:25:38.609 --> 00:25:43.289
closest port for Europe and America. Canton to

00:25:43.289 --> 00:25:46.450
foreign trade was an attempt by the Qing dynasty

00:25:46.450 --> 00:25:49.869
to prevent the Middle Kingdom from being contaminated

00:25:49.869 --> 00:25:52.970
by Western barbarians. It actually was kind of

00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:57.349
a progressive effort on their part because before

00:25:57.349 --> 00:26:02.130
it was kind of sketchy in terms of what one might

00:26:02.130 --> 00:26:04.569
see, particularly from the Portuguese and others

00:26:04.569 --> 00:26:08.750
coming into China prior to Canton. So here we

00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:13.299
have this legal well -regulated trading posts

00:26:13.299 --> 00:26:17.420
that people can come into, purchase goods from

00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:20.819
China, and go off on their merry way. In this

00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:22.640
period of its long history, the Chinese were

00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.859
more forward -looking than the West and more

00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:28.259
self -sufficient, a virtue that Jefferson found

00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:32.220
as interesting as did Franklin. The Chinese had

00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:34.539
experimented with maritime trade in the 15th

00:26:34.539 --> 00:26:39.859
century prior to it being undertaken. by the

00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:44.740
Europeans. Between 1405 and 1433, the Chinese

00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:47.900
sent literally hundreds of ships, crewed by thousands

00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:50.519
of men to the South China Seas, the Indian Ocean,

00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:55.380
and as far as the east coast of Africa, even

00:26:55.380 --> 00:26:59.339
up to the Red Sea. However, the Ming dynasties,

00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.009
virtuous mandarins, of Franklin's imagination,

00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:05.630
were not comfortable with this level of contact,

00:27:05.809 --> 00:27:08.509
fearing that contact with other cultures could

00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:11.349
undermine the well -defined hierarchical, Confucian

00:27:11.349 --> 00:27:16.410
-based society that China operated under. These

00:27:16.410 --> 00:27:19.250
expeditions were costly, and it was not clear

00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:21.809
that they provided good value for the huge expense

00:27:21.809 --> 00:27:25.069
that was required to fund them. None of these

00:27:25.069 --> 00:27:28.099
expeditions made it as far as Europe. It's tempting

00:27:28.099 --> 00:27:29.960
to wonder what might have happened had Chinese

00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.200
established contact by sea with Europe before

00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.259
Europe actually was able to go out and explore

00:27:36.259 --> 00:27:38.660
the world itself. I'm just going to interject

00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:43.900
something here. There was a book called 1421.

00:27:43.900 --> 00:27:48.200
Yes. By Gavin Menges. Yes. It was later debunked.

00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:53.079
This was referring to the exact same period the

00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:57.559
Zheng he yeah, John John he or John he John he

00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:01.819
yeah Flotilla that he postulated actually made

00:28:01.819 --> 00:28:04.200
it all the way to the Americas, which again has

00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:08.000
been I Don't widely debunked. No, no, I don't

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.640
think it's true anymore. I mean very interesting

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:14.619
read I mean like one of the if we're gonna go

00:28:14.619 --> 00:28:18.000
off on on little things a little tangent here

00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.259
One of the things one of my favorite exhibits

00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:26.920
in the British Museum is There is it's just an

00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.140
ordinary connection of pottery shards and it's

00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:32.640
like they were found in Zanzibar And kind of

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.480
what the Chinese found out is that the Indian

00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:38.819
Ocean has various times in which the current

00:28:38.819 --> 00:28:42.960
flows east -west and west -east, and this facilitated

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.839
trade. But they didn't really do anything with

00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:48.740
it. It's kind of like, okay, we're hitting our

00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:51.359
heads against like, okay, so this is great to

00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:54.940
know, we're sending all these ships out, we're

00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:58.740
providing trade goods, but what is this getting

00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:06.339
us? If they had made it say around to the west

00:29:06.339 --> 00:29:10.400
coast of Africa and up to Europe Just think about

00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:13.119
this. Okay. So China is the one who's basically

00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:17.640
taking the lead in maritime trade right and and

00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:22.079
There is no reason for Spain or Portugal to go

00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.500
out and explore Because and and trade is flowing

00:29:26.500 --> 00:29:32.339
east to west Not ships going west to east And

00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:37.200
when does America get discovered then? You know,

00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.559
because everything's concentrated in the Eastern

00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.140
Hemisphere there. So these kind of voyages during

00:29:45.140 --> 00:29:47.859
the Ming period are kind of like, you know, if

00:29:47.859 --> 00:29:49.480
somebody wanted to do an alternate history, this

00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.059
would be an interesting alternate history, wherein

00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:54.839
China becomes like, almost like the British Empire,

00:29:54.940 --> 00:29:58.900
the workshop of the world, and is trading with

00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.680
you know, whatever they could get from Europe

00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.940
at the time and maybe becomes a little less insular

00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.460
than it actually does because it becomes like

00:30:10.460 --> 00:30:17.099
this huge maritime entity. But this also could

00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:21.140
break apart the whole civilization because it

00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:23.160
kind of undermines the whole hierarchical system

00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:29.450
that kind of drives things there. the Ming emperors

00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:34.130
changed the policies that made Zheng his voyages

00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:39.250
impossible in the future. Apparently, they made

00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:41.750
the construction of ships with more than two

00:30:41.750 --> 00:30:45.630
masts a capital offense, and basically, they

00:30:45.630 --> 00:30:47.710
ordered the destruction of all ocean -going vessels

00:30:47.710 --> 00:30:52.480
by 1525. Right? Right. And they took all the

00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.900
information that was gained in those voyages

00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:57.640
and burned a lot of it. And they turned inward.

00:30:57.779 --> 00:31:02.099
Yes. Right. So they were focused on being the

00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:05.180
Middle Kingdom. The rest of the world was ancillary

00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:07.640
around them, whereas the Europeans were voyaging

00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.569
out and finding. The world around them what they

00:31:11.569 --> 00:31:13.569
could exploit in it right and the rest is history

00:31:13.569 --> 00:31:15.009
But that's how we wound up where we are today

00:31:15.009 --> 00:31:18.390
Well, we might be saying seeing them do a China

00:31:18.390 --> 00:31:22.369
first policy China first China first policy in

00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:26.230
which China becomes, you know, everything else

00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:31.069
is corrupt and We need to like squeeze people

00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:34.130
Order to trade with us. We don't need all these

00:31:34.130 --> 00:31:36.549
foreigners here. We don't need all these foreigners

00:31:36.549 --> 00:31:39.450
here They're just coming over here and undermining

00:31:39.450 --> 00:31:44.650
the integrity of our civilization Etc and we

00:31:44.650 --> 00:31:47.930
see and and I just say think about what happens

00:31:47.930 --> 00:31:50.750
when you pursue that policy for a couple of hundred

00:31:50.750 --> 00:31:54.930
years Where does that leave China China? Has

00:31:54.930 --> 00:31:58.609
is kind of like good at what it does and it's

00:31:58.609 --> 00:32:01.930
certainly the history of science that it has

00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:05.710
is second to none During what they were able

00:32:05.710 --> 00:32:10.230
to do. It's just The West leaps ahead because

00:32:10.230 --> 00:32:13.009
it becomes more innovative because they kind

00:32:13.009 --> 00:32:16.220
of have to when you're when you're reaching out

00:32:16.220 --> 00:32:20.299
and you're trying to maintain your status that's

00:32:20.299 --> 00:32:23.700
a powerful incentive to keep on innovating and

00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.359
to create this kind of cultural of innovation

00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:29.519
where we assume there will be innovation over

00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.779
and over again that's part of what we do with

00:32:32.779 --> 00:32:37.619
say under China's Confucian -based society it's

00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:40.400
about stability and it's about hierarchy and

00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.079
if you have something new, you want to integrate

00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:48.339
it so it doesn't produce change. It produces

00:32:48.339 --> 00:32:52.160
positive, there's a positive reaction, but you're

00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:55.779
not going to kind of undermine the basic nature

00:32:55.779 --> 00:32:58.680
of society. We do that all the time. This is

00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:00.660
kind of what people bitch about when they're

00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:04.519
like saying, you know, we're not the society

00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:07.599
that we once were and that things have changed

00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:11.210
and and so forth and I don't like this but you

00:33:11.210 --> 00:33:13.230
know this is kind of the same mentality and so

00:33:13.230 --> 00:33:16.589
I would say that there's a lot of lessons in

00:33:16.589 --> 00:33:18.690
this story about the U .S. and China and one

00:33:18.690 --> 00:33:22.049
of them being don't let this happen to you where

00:33:22.049 --> 00:33:25.150
people where your society becomes calcified because

00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:27.829
that's how you fall behind. Insularity leads

00:33:27.829 --> 00:33:30.809
to calcification. Yes. And you fall behind, yes.

00:33:44.579 --> 00:33:49.160
So we have the Ming dynasty falling in 1644 and

00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.759
we have the rise of the new Manchu or Qing dynasty

00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:58.440
and They did not really have any change in attitudes

00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:02.400
towards the West while China had access to spices

00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.289
silk and porcelain and tea, there was very little

00:34:06.289 --> 00:34:08.630
in the way of Western products the Chinese wanted

00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:12.469
or needed. Apparently clocks were popular in

00:34:12.469 --> 00:34:14.349
say like the 17th century because this was something

00:34:14.349 --> 00:34:17.989
they had never developed in this and maybe some

00:34:17.989 --> 00:34:21.550
equipment for observing the stars which the Jesuits

00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:26.110
brought in. But other, you know, massive shipments

00:34:26.110 --> 00:34:31.099
of Western goods you know, cloth or anything

00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:34.739
of that nature. This was just not needed or wanted.

00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:39.880
The West had to be able to, if they did pick

00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.880
up anything in China, such as tea, they would

00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:48.119
have to pay for the commodities in silver. And

00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:49.960
Chinese like this. I mean, it's kind of like

00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:51.960
interesting to look at this dynamic between the

00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.360
West and China. We're obsessed by things like

00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.639
tea. They're obsessed by getting the silver because

00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:00.019
the silver is actually funding the government,

00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:03.239
funding the army. It's not necessarily funding

00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:06.679
innovation and change, but it is definitely like

00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:08.719
playing a significant role in the revenue of

00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:14.079
the state there. Eventually, in 1757, the emperor

00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.099
opted to restrict trade just to Canton. This

00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:19.820
is when that actually happens. This is when they're

00:35:19.820 --> 00:35:22.940
trying to kind of control what is previously

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:26.820
a kind of chaotic process. And again, people,

00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.320
the city had access to the goods that the West

00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:33.940
wanted from the hinterland and it was removed

00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:37.190
from the capital Beijing. There was a very strong

00:35:37.190 --> 00:35:39.570
desire to avoid having a bunch of Westerners

00:35:39.570 --> 00:35:41.710
running around the capital city and stirring

00:35:41.710 --> 00:35:46.429
the pot up here. The Chinese insisted that relations

00:35:46.429 --> 00:35:50.210
be decidedly unequal and in China's favor, and

00:35:50.210 --> 00:35:52.909
we're going to see how that dynamic kind of shifts

00:35:52.909 --> 00:35:59.010
as time progresses here. Like I said, all transactions

00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:02.949
had to be conducted in silver, and the two countries

00:36:02.949 --> 00:36:06.809
that produced coins that were that were deemed

00:36:06.809 --> 00:36:11.670
to be most desirable were Spain and the United

00:36:11.670 --> 00:36:15.190
States. High quality of silver, high quantity

00:36:15.190 --> 00:36:17.889
of silver in the coinage. At this stage, countries

00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:22.389
like Britain would grant monopoly trading rights

00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:25.409
and it was rare for the government to intervene

00:36:25.409 --> 00:36:28.469
abroad. So you had these companies, in this case

00:36:28.469 --> 00:36:31.429
it's the East India Company, they have monopoly

00:36:31.429 --> 00:36:37.360
on trade there. They really lacked the capacity

00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:41.159
to deploy government forces over vast areas of

00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:44.079
territory. So it's kind of like if you're a merchant

00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.000
operating out of China, you're kind of like on

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:54.079
your own. There is no large area where they can

00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:57.659
deploy assets to be able to defend your rights.

00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.590
This is going to change. No one has colonies

00:37:01.590 --> 00:37:05.110
near China in the 18th century that are operating

00:37:05.110 --> 00:37:10.849
at a high level. And India is also part of the

00:37:10.849 --> 00:37:15.550
East India Company's sphere of influence. Yeah,

00:37:15.550 --> 00:37:17.530
my understanding is the East India Company's

00:37:17.530 --> 00:37:19.389
turf started kind of at the Cape of Good Hope,

00:37:19.630 --> 00:37:21.789
right? Once you rounded Africa, you were on their

00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:26.590
turf. Yep. And there were very strict laws about

00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:30.010
trading anywhere. in the Indian Ocean or East

00:37:30.010 --> 00:37:34.190
Asia. You had to be a licensed ship. There were

00:37:34.190 --> 00:37:37.829
severe penalties for trading if you were not

00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:39.809
a properly licensed ship, licensed to the East

00:37:39.809 --> 00:37:42.929
India Company. Yeah, they were a very powerful

00:37:42.929 --> 00:37:44.769
thing for a couple of hundred years or so, two

00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:46.469
or three hundred years there operating in the

00:37:46.469 --> 00:37:50.190
Far East. Well, they actually had a larger standing

00:37:50.190 --> 00:37:55.670
army than the British did. They had a standing

00:37:55.670 --> 00:37:59.900
army of about a quarter of a million and this

00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:02.980
is deployed all over the place and it you know

00:38:02.980 --> 00:38:06.300
but the British never had that kind of standing

00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:11.440
army to be able to you know unless we're talking

00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:15.900
the need to kind of mobilize during war but the

00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:20.320
East India Company had this all the time they

00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:24.690
also had fleets of ships a navy that would be

00:38:24.690 --> 00:38:30.130
consistent with a somewhat powerful country.

00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:32.309
I mean, it's probably not up there with France

00:38:32.309 --> 00:38:36.429
or the UK, but it's certainly something, and

00:38:36.429 --> 00:38:39.369
particularly in this area of the world, it was

00:38:39.369 --> 00:38:41.190
probably significant. The British government

00:38:41.190 --> 00:38:43.010
granted them a monopoly for that portion of the

00:38:43.010 --> 00:38:46.050
world, and under that they operated as a state

00:38:46.050 --> 00:38:50.869
within a state. Yeah. And this is gonna change.

00:38:52.409 --> 00:38:56.059
So, The two things three things there were three

00:38:56.059 --> 00:39:00.460
products that the Chinese exported very successfully

00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:03.199
silk, you know going back all the way to the

00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:08.039
Silk Road export porcelain these are very popular

00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.500
products and and to the extent that they were

00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:15.480
utilized, the Europeans came up with their own

00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.380
methods for silk production and also their own

00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:23.400
porcelain. This was kind of like a contest, but

00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.320
it was something that the Germans were heavily

00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:27.960
involved in. But there was one thing that they

00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.219
couldn't produce on their own, and that was tea.

00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:34.079
And we kind of take access to tea for granted

00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:38.559
here, but it was a huge thing. Up until the 19th

00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:41.059
century China had monopoly on tea cultivation.

00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:44.139
There was no cultivation of tea in India until

00:39:44.139 --> 00:39:46.920
the middle of the 19th century when the British

00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:49.320
kind of moved in and the state was running things.

00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:53.039
In the British world, which also includes North

00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.579
America, tea drinking was introduced by Catherine

00:39:55.579 --> 00:39:59.300
of Braganza. She was the wife of Charles II,

00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:02.039
and she, being Portuguese, was familiar with

00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:05.320
the product because Portuguese had a lot of trade

00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.079
relations with China at the time. And, of course,

00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:11.179
if you've got a royal behind you, it's going

00:40:11.179 --> 00:40:14.320
to have this snob appeal, and this kind of spreads

00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:17.139
throughout the upper and middle classes to the

00:40:17.139 --> 00:40:20.639
point where tea becomes just an absolute We can

00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.440
also think about America here, where tea arrived

00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:27.019
legally under the auspices of the East India

00:40:27.019 --> 00:40:33.340
Company, but it was also smuggled in, where merchants

00:40:33.340 --> 00:40:35.679
could basically go to other countries that had

00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:38.719
trade with China and get maybe the tea at a lesser

00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:41.739
cost and bring it in, almost the way that liquor

00:40:41.739 --> 00:40:45.130
was brought in during Prohibition. So think about,

00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:47.670
you know, during the early days of the American

00:40:47.670 --> 00:40:50.130
Revolution, tea was being smuggled in by people

00:40:50.130 --> 00:40:55.190
like John Hancock and others in Boston. So the

00:40:55.190 --> 00:40:57.989
U .S. appetite for tea and other commodities

00:40:57.989 --> 00:41:02.449
remain unabated even as a result of the trade

00:41:02.449 --> 00:41:04.809
disruptions during the American Revolutionary

00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:08.750
War. We made something like tea, but it was kind

00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:13.409
of... Nasty. So no one really wanted, they wanted

00:41:13.409 --> 00:41:16.389
the real thing. So dispatching the Empress of

00:41:16.389 --> 00:41:25.329
China in 1784, it was intended to eliminate reliance

00:41:25.329 --> 00:41:27.630
on British sources for goods from the Far East

00:41:27.630 --> 00:41:30.829
and brought a jumpstart U .S. commercial activity.

00:41:31.550 --> 00:41:33.630
which had suffered as a result of the American

00:41:33.630 --> 00:41:36.429
Revolution. China was not the only place the

00:41:36.429 --> 00:41:38.590
U .S. sought to establish trade relations with,

00:41:38.789 --> 00:41:41.590
but it soon emerged as one of the most noteworthy

00:41:41.590 --> 00:41:46.550
and profitable. So once Americans were able to

00:41:46.550 --> 00:41:49.230
make it to China, which was a six -month voyage

00:41:49.230 --> 00:41:52.409
initially, the problem that they faced, and this

00:41:52.409 --> 00:41:53.769
is going to be something that's going to affect

00:41:53.769 --> 00:41:57.409
the British as well, was what do they have to

00:41:57.409 --> 00:42:00.070
trade with China? that would offset the cost

00:42:00.070 --> 00:42:05.809
of goods that was purchasing. And this is kind

00:42:05.809 --> 00:42:08.650
of, if you want to look at the larger history,

00:42:08.849 --> 00:42:11.409
this is kind of what's going to be driving the

00:42:11.409 --> 00:42:15.550
history of U .S.-Chinese relations up until the

00:42:15.550 --> 00:42:21.090
1850s. So the problem that the British had was

00:42:21.090 --> 00:42:23.889
that just as tea drinking continued to be popular,

00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.000
More money is going to China, more hard currency,

00:42:28.099 --> 00:42:31.179
more silver, because that is the only way that

00:42:31.179 --> 00:42:34.780
you can purchase anything in China, is going

00:42:34.780 --> 00:42:36.599
to China than the British were able to offset

00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:39.820
by sales of goods that they produce, such as

00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:44.199
cloth and other manufactured goods. Trade imbalances

00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:49.000
were not tolerated. This ran counter to received

00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:52.420
economic wisdom of the 18th and 19th century.

00:42:53.789 --> 00:42:56.449
demanded that you make a profit off other countries,

00:42:56.630 --> 00:42:59.570
not that you trade with them in a mutually beneficial

00:42:59.570 --> 00:43:02.690
way. Yes, and particularly if you're having to

00:43:02.690 --> 00:43:05.409
pay for this in silver, you know, precious metals

00:43:05.409 --> 00:43:09.070
are leaving. That is used to back up your currency.

00:43:09.530 --> 00:43:11.989
So as precious metals are flowing out, there's

00:43:11.989 --> 00:43:15.619
not the same concept of credit. And it's like

00:43:15.619 --> 00:43:18.860
if you look at the kind of history and the dynamics

00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:22.219
that's going on during this period, you kind

00:43:22.219 --> 00:43:24.480
of like want to say, gosh, if you all could just

00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:26.800
come up with an internationally recognized system

00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:30.039
of credit where we're not having to worry about

00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:32.320
silver leaving Britain or having to come up with

00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:35.320
the silver to pay for it, a lot of problems would

00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:37.099
not have manifested themselves, but it didn't

00:43:37.099 --> 00:43:39.579
occur to them to do this. Well, and it's because

00:43:39.579 --> 00:43:42.619
the thinking of the time was that The wealth

00:43:42.619 --> 00:43:45.820
of the world is a fixed amount. Yes. And you

00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:48.500
get your slice of the pie and you want to make

00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:50.440
your slice of the pie bigger, but that has to

00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:51.980
come at the expense of somebody else because

00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:56.460
you can't make the pie itself bigger. Right.

00:43:56.460 --> 00:43:59.920
You're limited by the resources and overall wealth

00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:03.199
of the world, which always has been fixed and

00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.699
always will be fixed. Yes. And if you think about

00:44:05.699 --> 00:44:07.920
it that way, it really eliminates the idea of

00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:10.420
growing an economy or doing anything like that.

00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:13.579
or a mutually beneficial trade arrangement where

00:44:13.579 --> 00:44:15.539
both sides benefit, because by definition that

00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:17.960
can happen, because one side must be making their

00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:19.619
slice of the pie bigger, and the other, by definition,

00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:21.260
must be making their slice of the pie smaller.

00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:23.519
Yeah. Zero -sum game. Zero -sum game. There's

00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:26.019
no concept of making the pie itself bigger through

00:44:26.019 --> 00:44:29.780
economic growth. That will come later. Yes. And

00:44:29.780 --> 00:44:33.599
that would – this is just a mentality that just

00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:37.119
doesn't exist back then. The idea of growing

00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:59.820
the pie. Growing the pie. What the British solution

00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:04.500
is, is to sell, or as time progresses, smuggle,

00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:08.460
opium into China. This is the one commodity that

00:45:08.460 --> 00:45:10.639
seemed to have no limit on its appeal within

00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.519
China. The East India Company, which operated,

00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:17.719
as Mike had said, almost like a state within

00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:19.739
a state during the period, had a monopoly on

00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:22.940
trade with Asia. And it could get opium from

00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:26.559
India. It had its own fields. And it could also

00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:30.360
acquire additional opium from other traders within

00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:33.840
India. Most of the fields that the East India

00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:37.519
Company operated were out of the Bengal region.

00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:41.659
It's somewhat impossible to imagine the resources

00:45:41.659 --> 00:45:45.519
of the East India Company just in terms of what

00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.800
it was able to do in terms of promoting opium

00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:52.469
as a trading component here. Opium gets sold

00:45:52.469 --> 00:45:55.650
for silver because silver is the means by which

00:45:55.650 --> 00:45:59.469
transactions occur, and so we're practicing the

00:45:59.469 --> 00:46:03.309
British want silver in payment for its commodities

00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:07.510
that spring just like the Chinese are. Silver

00:46:07.510 --> 00:46:09.949
is used to purchase Chinese goods like tea, porcelain,

00:46:09.989 --> 00:46:13.869
and silk, and this kind of gradually cuts into

00:46:13.869 --> 00:46:17.519
China's trade surplus. and continue to create

00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.320
economic, social, and ultimately political problems

00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:24.860
for China. So in a sense, you know, these people

00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:28.920
are kind of doing, engaging in very harmful policies

00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:34.179
that have long -term negative implications mainly

00:46:34.179 --> 00:46:36.780
for China, and China at this stage is calling

00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:40.280
the shots. because we have the tea that you want

00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.820
and we have this one port that we can kick you

00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:45.760
out of anytime we like and you don't really have

00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:50.199
the resources now to respond to this in such

00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:55.039
a way to do that, to undermine our policy here.

00:46:55.820 --> 00:47:00.599
So it's kind of hard to say when you're dealing

00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.539
with something like drug smuggling where you

00:47:03.539 --> 00:47:06.320
don't really have official records, and official

00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:10.619
records are kind of a detriment. It's estimated

00:47:10.619 --> 00:47:13.440
at this point that 90 % of the opium entering

00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:18.139
China came from Britain, and the remaining 10

00:47:18.139 --> 00:47:21.840
% came from the U .S. And we're getting our opium

00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.039
again from the trade with the Middle East, with

00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:29.179
the Ottoman Empire. Our opium is coming all the

00:47:29.179 --> 00:47:32.739
way from Turkey. Britain's opium is coming Just

00:47:32.739 --> 00:47:36.039
from India if that makes sense, but opium was

00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:40.000
legal then Correct in this country and in Britain

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:42.320
it most definitely was that's what I thought

00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:46.460
and so there is this kind of You know with with

00:47:46.460 --> 00:47:51.139
the British it is You know, yeah opium is legal.

00:47:51.139 --> 00:47:53.199
You don't have any right to complain about it

00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:55.519
It's not something that we regard as being a

00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:58.880
harmful commodity here drug laws as we understand

00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:03.210
them today didn't really begin until the beginning

00:48:03.210 --> 00:48:05.730
of the 20th century, maybe the very end of the

00:48:05.730 --> 00:48:11.750
19th. For example, Coca -Cola, it's called that

00:48:11.750 --> 00:48:15.050
because it had cocaine in it until 1903. I didn't

00:48:15.050 --> 00:48:18.050
remember that, yes. And it wasn't actually made

00:48:18.050 --> 00:48:21.449
illegal until the Pure Food and Drug Act in 1906

00:48:21.449 --> 00:48:27.170
made it illegal to include cocaine in food. Now,

00:48:27.449 --> 00:48:29.170
cocaine comes from a different plant, the coca

00:48:29.170 --> 00:48:33.610
plant, right? Poppies. Opium poppies. Well, I

00:48:33.610 --> 00:48:36.170
mean, just to make the point that these things

00:48:36.170 --> 00:48:39.289
were not illegal then. For us, in China though,

00:48:39.570 --> 00:48:43.610
they were illegal. They became illegal. Now I

00:48:43.610 --> 00:48:46.730
understand. Judge's scourge. Well, laudanum,

00:48:46.969 --> 00:48:51.699
which laudanum is something that we see... people

00:48:51.699 --> 00:48:56.519
taking in Victorian novels after a Shock or something

00:48:56.519 --> 00:48:59.480
horrific happens. They'll like give them a spoonful

00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:02.179
of laudanum. Well laudanum is just opium. It's

00:49:02.179 --> 00:49:06.679
liquid opium and You know, it was it was perceived

00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.420
as being like just regular old medicine that

00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:11.539
you'd give somebody who's stressed out It was

00:49:11.539 --> 00:49:13.599
a painkiller. It was a painkiller. If you had

00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:15.780
someone say dying of cancer They were in pain

00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:17.940
you would give them laudanum to relieve the pain,

00:49:17.940 --> 00:49:24.219
right? So or it's Prozac Yeah, I mean you could

00:49:24.219 --> 00:49:27.420
you would you would use this and so I mean, you

00:49:27.420 --> 00:49:29.599
know back in the time period that we're talking

00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:34.860
about here It's kind of You know to take opium.

00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:39.420
It's kind of Adventurous in some degrees if you're

00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:42.539
doing it purely for recreation you have someone

00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:46.679
like Samuel Taylor Coleridge who takes some opium

00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:50.360
and writes Kubla Khan You know in Xanadu did

00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:53.300
Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree all

00:49:53.300 --> 00:49:57.079
about China And then you have in our own country

00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:01.739
you have Poe and Poe used opium Kind of when

00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:05.360
he couldn't get liquor, but he would use opium

00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:09.239
recreationally as well So it's also in all sorts

00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:15.150
of patent medicines and nerve tonics And the

00:50:15.150 --> 00:50:16.969
reason why it probably didn't get the attention

00:50:16.969 --> 00:50:20.690
that it did was that alcohol was far more of

00:50:20.690 --> 00:50:23.989
a problem than opium addiction. You know, people

00:50:23.989 --> 00:50:28.829
were far more likely to be drunks than drug addicts.

00:50:28.929 --> 00:50:33.150
Than as now. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a story for

00:50:33.150 --> 00:50:35.250
another day. That is a story for another day.

00:50:35.409 --> 00:50:37.070
Yeah, we should do something on prohibition.

00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:43.599
We're uniquely qualified to talk to this. And

00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.920
we'll just leave it at that. So opium addiction

00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:53.699
became a problem in China, becoming popular among

00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:57.280
civil servants in the military who actually had

00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:01.099
the greatest access to it. Addiction in China

00:51:01.099 --> 00:51:05.210
though can't be really tracked because The records

00:51:05.210 --> 00:51:08.349
are just incomplete. You've got anecdotes about

00:51:08.349 --> 00:51:11.090
addiction. You don't really have statistics on

00:51:11.090 --> 00:51:13.449
it. It wasn't something that people were actually

00:51:13.449 --> 00:51:16.650
trying to follow. But famously there were opium

00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:20.389
dens. Yes. In China. Yes. Where you would go

00:51:20.389 --> 00:51:23.829
and get your... And elsewhere. Well, and elsewhere.

00:51:24.010 --> 00:51:26.050
Well, we had them too, yeah. We had them too,

00:51:26.050 --> 00:51:29.329
right. You know, and ours were kind of like very

00:51:29.329 --> 00:51:32.190
exotic because it was meant to mimic that kind

00:51:32.190 --> 00:51:35.690
of... orientalist fantasy that was going on,

00:51:36.289 --> 00:51:41.949
but there were opium dens and it becomes difficult

00:51:41.949 --> 00:51:46.530
to be able just to see and track addiction. And

00:51:46.530 --> 00:51:49.530
we can ponder which is worse, criminal activity

00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:54.829
or a trade imbalance. So in future episodes,

00:51:55.050 --> 00:51:57.489
we're going to be looking at some of the mistakes

00:51:57.489 --> 00:52:01.110
the US made in its dealings with China. And these

00:52:01.110 --> 00:52:04.090
are by no means unique to just the Chinese experience.

00:52:04.510 --> 00:52:07.090
We can see parallels with other relationships

00:52:07.090 --> 00:52:11.170
in other areas of the world that these same mistakes

00:52:11.170 --> 00:52:16.750
get repeated over and over again. But with China,

00:52:17.269 --> 00:52:22.239
there is a certain relevancy. just given the

00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:24.440
state and importance of U .S.-China relations

00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:28.360
in the 21st century. The U .S. relationship with

00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:31.079
China, as we'll see, will have a profound effect

00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:35.739
on their respective histories. The U .S. initiated

00:52:35.739 --> 00:52:40.179
contact with China starts out as a means to offset

00:52:40.179 --> 00:52:43.599
post -revolutionary trade imbalances due to the

00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:45.460
exclusion of reciprocal trade with the British

00:52:45.460 --> 00:52:49.699
Empire. Over time, We're going to see China become

00:52:49.699 --> 00:52:53.019
even more important within the U .S., not just

00:52:53.019 --> 00:52:58.820
as an economic source, but also as a featuring

00:52:58.820 --> 00:53:01.179
in a campaign to promote the second coming of

00:53:01.179 --> 00:53:07.820
Christ. And also, in further episodes, see it

00:53:07.820 --> 00:53:10.619
serve as a pillar of global stability throughout

00:53:10.619 --> 00:53:14.860
the world. That China didn't really want to be

00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:18.420
involved in either campaign will lead the United

00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:21.260
States to react in ways that will prove destructive

00:53:21.260 --> 00:53:24.519
to its own best interests both at home and abroad.

00:53:25.500 --> 00:53:29.039
By the 20th and 21st century, Americans would

00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:32.239
advance an argument that China needed to resolve

00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:36.900
its difficulties by emulating the United States,

00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:42.300
a militantly ignorant view of how China of China,

00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:45.500
avoiding all understanding of Chinese history

00:53:45.500 --> 00:53:49.920
and its culture. The solution, as with other

00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:54.599
areas of the world that it was attempted throughout

00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.340
the 20th and 21st century, was something the

00:53:57.340 --> 00:54:00.940
Chinese were disinclined to do more than just

00:54:00.940 --> 00:54:04.440
pay lip service to, mainly as a way of extracting

00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:08.679
money and assistance, particularly in the middle

00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:13.579
of the the early to middle 20th century. The

00:54:13.579 --> 00:54:16.659
U .S. would, as usual, respond to these failures

00:54:16.659 --> 00:54:21.119
by taking a more insular approach to the relationship

00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:24.320
with the world, not really understanding the

00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:29.460
implications of what can only be described as

00:54:29.460 --> 00:54:39.849
insular internationalism. Thank you for listening.

00:54:40.510 --> 00:54:42.610
We hope you learned something, and we hope you

00:54:42.610 --> 00:54:44.730
discovered new ways of looking at things you

00:54:44.730 --> 00:54:47.829
had already heard or thought about, or perhaps

00:54:47.829 --> 00:54:50.869
hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed it, that's

00:54:50.869 --> 00:54:54.949
great. If we made you mad, that's okay too. Either

00:54:54.949 --> 00:54:59.829
way, email us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and

00:54:59.829 --> 00:55:02.989
let us know what you think. Also, let us know

00:55:02.989 --> 00:55:05.250
about anything you think we missed or got wrong.

00:55:05.369 --> 00:55:08.289
We'd like to know about that too. And of course,

00:55:08.730 --> 00:55:11.170
Please like and subscribe and let your friends

00:55:11.170 --> 00:55:14.329
and neighbors know about us. We also have a website.

00:55:14.449 --> 00:55:21.769
It's www .usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike

00:55:21.769 --> 00:55:24.050
and myself, till next time.