204: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - The Harmonious Fists

WEBVTT

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For Julie in England, I need to apologize in

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advance for my voice. I'm suffering from a cold.

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In the end, China went its own way, as if the

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Americans had never come. This quote from Barbara

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Tuckman's Pulitzer Prize -winning book, Still

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Well and the American Experience in China. underscores

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certain messianic tendencies in the way America

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chooses to interact with the world and the ultimate

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and inevitable outcome during the period 1919

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to 1949. The US approach to China during this

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period was by no means the last time the US would

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attempt to impose its vision on an unwilling

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foreign country, and by no means the last time

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a foreign country would seek to use the US as

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a means of enhancing the economic well -being

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of corrupt officials. This is a pattern of behavior

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that we would see happen again and again, and

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not just in Asia. However, the desired outcome

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that Americans hoped to achieve in China would

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be unprecedented, and this was the second coming

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of Jesus. Welcome to the United States of Amnesia.

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You found us. Thank you. We are the podcast that

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reminds us of what we have forgotten. It is often

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said that history repeats itself. Mark Twain

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allegedly said that history doesn't repeat itself.

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but it rhymes. But over time, many topics have

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become clouded by biases and oversimplifications,

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or have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. So in our last episode

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the centuries -old imperial system in China fell

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either in 1911 or 1912 depending on one's preference

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for dates And the reason to mention both years

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is that the Sinhai Revolution of October 1911

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led to the abdication of the last emperor in

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February 1912. So depending on which one you

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want to count as the end of the empire, you can

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pick either 1911 or 1912. This seemed to indicate

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at the time that China would become a functioning

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republic. One was certainly proclaimed. However,

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really what would persist in China would be the

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absence of a fully functioning central government.

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In the wake of the fall of the imperial system,

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new elites, many the products of American missionary

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outreach efforts, rose to try and replace the

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emperors with a vision for the future that would

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find favor in the West, but not necessarily with

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the Chinese. The fall of the imperial system

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was not nearly as neat as initially assumed.

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Yes, China had a republic, but it was internally

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destabilized and it would continue to be internally

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destabilized through wars and revolutions up

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until 1949 when the Chinese communists took over.

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It was only then that it could be said that power

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was consolidated under a single entity within

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the country as a whole. The rise of China's new

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elites in the 1920s involved four big families,

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three of which were related to each other through

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marriage. These were the Chang, the Song, the

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Kung, and the Chen. And this provided a certain

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hope for the continuing influx of American missionaries.

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These were the so -called nationalist elite.

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and we could say that they were thoroughly westernized.

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The first three were related to each other by

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marriage and were strongly influenced by missionary

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culture and some were educated at Methodist liberal

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arts colleges in the U .S. The missionaries assumed

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that with the rise of these families in the upper

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reaches of the nation republic that this would

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provide them with unprecedented support and ultimately

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the Christianization of China. Both Chiang Kai

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-shek and his wife were Christians. His wife,

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Mei Ling, was the daughter of Charlie Song, who

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we met in the previous episode. Mei Ling was

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related by birth or by marriage to other prominent

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Chinese Christians that made up the Song and

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Kong families, and who would ultimately lead

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China through 1949. Before there were all manner

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of notions about Israel and its establishment

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leading to the Second Coming of Christ, American

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fundamentalists entertained similar notions about

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China than is now selectively using certain portions

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of the Bible to make their case. Converting China

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to Christianity was the great undertaking for

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U .S. Protestant churches throughout the 19th

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and 20th centuries. Accompanying the talk about

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the Second Coming of Christ were the beliefs

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that Chiang Kai -shek and his wife were actively

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seeking to promote Christianity throughout China.

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These would form the basis for a significant

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segment of the Chang regime's support within

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the United States. While Americans, with their

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exclusionary immigration policies, were intent

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on prohibiting Chinese from sharing the country

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with them, they had no such compunction about

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sharing a religion, whether the Chinese wanted

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that religion or not. The missionaries, who by

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1919 had been a presence in China beyond just

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the confines of Canton, had emerged as a special

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target of the 1900 Boxer Rebellion. And it's

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worth going back to kind of consider the 1900

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Boxer Rebellion by doing so we can look at how

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this is impacting missionary culture in China

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in the era of the republic. We summarized the

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Boxer Rebellion in the last episode, but let's

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get into the details of it now to explain the

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traumatic effect it had on the missionaries.

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Okay, so Marshall brings up the Boxer Rebellion,

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so we'll rewind about 20 years back in time.

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and consider what happened there. China had 18

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provinces and Manchuria had three. All three

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Manchurian provinces and 13 of the 18 Chinese

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provinces had come under a recognized foreign

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sphere of influence by 1900. France, the German

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Empire, the Kingdom of Italy, the Japanese Empire,

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the Russian Empire, and the United Kingdom, the

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British Empire, all had spheres of influence

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in China by about 1900. And even Belgium had

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a railway concession there. In September 1898,

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the Empress Dowager of China deposed her nephew,

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Huang Shu. He had been engaged in the Hundred

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Days, which was a rather weak and short campaign

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to westernize and reform Chinese government and

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society. She overthrew him. Her government was

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deeply traditional, superstitious. It's been

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characterized as ignorant, corrupt, haughty,

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proud, disdainful, and her governing style was

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viewed as capricious. If she had a whim she would

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she would act on that whim Things started to

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change in 1899 Italy did not have a sphere of

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influence in China and it attempted to gain one

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in something called the Sun men bay Incident

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which turned out to be a fiasco for Italy Italy

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without getting into a lot of details tried to

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get a concession for itself in check yang province

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and the Chinese actually rebuffed them and for

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once the Chinese actually got their way and Italy

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did not get a sphere of influence. This actual

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success against the European power emboldened

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the Empress Dowager's imperial government and

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they thought that they could maybe get away with

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doing more to push out the foreigners than had

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been the case in recent times. Now all this happened

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as the boxer movement arose near Peking which

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is now called Beijing. The Boxers were about

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90 % peasants. They were colorfully dressed.

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They wore red They had no clear leader. They

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had no coherent philosophy What they wanted to

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do is defend their ancient civilization from

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the degradation of foreigners By the simple method

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of killing all foreigners and all Chinese converts

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the Christianity who they viewed as a as a foreign

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influence And their battle cry in fact was sha

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sha which means kill kill and they went into

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combat that way What were they so upset about

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well, they were offended to various degrees by

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foreigners and foreign influence in China And

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what were the issues there? Well, certainly the

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missionaries were a large part of it. The missionaries

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were arrogant They showed little interest in

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Chinese culture or the Chinese language They

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tended to view Chinese customs as pagan and unworthy

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something to be gotten past not respected in

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any way Western businessmen operating in China

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were similarly insensitive and dismissive, and

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they tend to hire bullies as overseers and foremen,

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so that didn't ingratiate them with the Chinese

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population much either. Another thing was the

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construction of churches, Western housing, railways,

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and telegraph lines, as well as Western mining

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operations that began in China, completely foreign

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ideas in China. And in Chinese thinking, these

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desecrated the land and therefore the spirituality

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of Chinese civilization as reflected through

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the concept of Feng Shui. Now, in more recent

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times, we've kind of made Feng Shui silly in

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the West by worrying about, you know, where you

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put your couch in your living room or something

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like that. That's what people think of Feng Shui.

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But in China, it actually has a long history

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of spiritual history of the proper order of things,

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where things should and should not be. Well,

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railways, housing, telegraph lines, etc. ruined

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the Feng Shui. They damaged it. Railways often

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ran through things like burial grounds, which

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are very common in China. Bridges disrupted river

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traffic so that the high -masted junks couldn't

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get through and that disrupted trade. The Chinese

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peasants even felt that the moaning sound of

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wind through telegraph lines was the sound of

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tortured ancestral spirits who had been injured

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by all this disruption of the Feng Shui. So the

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the even the Chinese even believed at least the

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peasants did that the disturbance of feng shui

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led to things like natural disasters So things

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like earthquakes and floods who had been brought

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on by the presence of foreigners Also missionaries

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were protege's of Chinese officials the Chinese

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peasants viewed the Chinese officials as corrupt

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and oppressive and so by extension they viewed

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the missionaries in the same way and interestingly

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the officials that the that the Missionaries

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are going to kind of foster in the Republic They

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are going to be corrupt in their own way that

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is kind of going to, they will enjoy very little

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support amongst Chinese peasants. Forward -looking

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people, a minor middle class, yes, but they're

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not going to, they're going to be violating so

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many taboos with some of the things that they're

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going to be proposing. All of these being things

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that we admire them for doing. It's still gonna

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it's gonna it's gonna cloud the the issue and

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appear to be corruption on top of corruption

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And remember that the boxes were primarily peasantry

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and these were not educated people in remotely

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or worldly in any sense of the word They were

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Chinese peasants who knew nothing. They rarely

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a lot of them had never seen a foreigner But

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they had a lot they were told a lot of things

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about foreigners and had ideas about what the

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foreigners were up to It's also a way of kind

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of you know Since the Empress is is supporting

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this the imperial government has not been doing

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well for itself throughout the 19th century And

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this is a way now I don't like what we see today

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in other parts of the world where they're like

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target foreigners even in our own country When

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things aren't going well for a regime. Well,

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let's just pick on a few foreigners and basically

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say they're the problem they're to blame and

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There's gonna be a lot of that as the missionaries

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are the Somalis of yeah of China in the 19th

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century Yeah It was very easy to propagandize

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the people who became boxers since they they

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knew so little about the world or they knew so

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little about foreigners So another example would

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be things like Christian values and practices

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were propagandized as having dark effects on

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Chinese people when Catholic priests Administered

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last rights to a dying Chinese person This was

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propagandized as them actually engaging in some

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kind of incantation to kill the Chinese person

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The Chinese also couldn't understand why the

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Westerners the missionaries in particular were

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so concerned about saving all these economically

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useless babies and children The proliferation

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proliferation of unnecessary babies and children

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all that did was you know create another mouth

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to feed without giving you any benefit. Remember

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that in China, the practice of infanticide, particularly

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female infanticide, was quite common and well

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established in the culture. They really couldn't

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understand why anybody would want to keep such

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economically useless babies, but what they did

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decide was that they must be keeping them to

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butcher them in order to engage in some kind

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of process of alchemy that would create silver.

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So this is the kind of thinking you're dealing

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with among the boxers. That's pretty out there.

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That's pretty out there, isn't it? Another issue

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is that Chinese converts to Christianity. Tended

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to benefit from the intercession of missionaries

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in Chinese affairs so if they got in some kind

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of trouble the missionaries would would intervene

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on their behalf and They would get away with

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things that they might not have gotten away with

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had they not converted So the Chinese converts

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even became in a way a privileged class Within

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China and a resented one in the eyes of the Chinese

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peasantry and this kind of runs counter to what

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we see, you know when we're looking at some of

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the Westerners who were who were brought before

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Chinese justice. Chinese justice was more about

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punishment than it was about justice. And this

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was how they understand the way of the world.

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If you're brought before, you're probably guilty.

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There is the whole judicial process that we take

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for granted, at least in most parts of these

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United States. was just simply not part of the

00:14:15.809 --> 00:14:18.250
culture suffice suffice it to say that westerners

00:14:18.250 --> 00:14:20.070
didn't have much respect for the chinese judicial

00:14:20.070 --> 00:14:22.110
system of the 19th century did they well that's

00:14:22.110 --> 00:14:25.029
why they wanted extraterritoriality extraterritoriality

00:14:25.029 --> 00:14:27.230
yeah um and then finally one last thing to point

00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.870
out is that then there was opium isn't there

00:14:29.870 --> 00:14:32.230
always opium And even though China was actually

00:14:32.230 --> 00:14:34.870
growing opium domestically by the late 19th century,

00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:37.389
there was a significant amount of opium grown

00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:39.070
domestically. There was still a lot of foreign

00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:41.429
trade in opium. And in the eye of the boxers,

00:14:41.509 --> 00:14:43.070
opium, which was understood to have a lot of

00:14:43.070 --> 00:14:45.429
deleterious effects on society, was viewed as

00:14:45.429 --> 00:14:48.389
an entirely foreign influence at that time. So

00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:50.230
they blamed it entirely on foreigners and ignored

00:14:50.230 --> 00:14:51.710
the fact that China was also growing some of

00:14:51.710 --> 00:14:55.629
its own. So based on this, between 1890 and 1899,

00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:59.110
there were anti -missionary actions in all 18

00:14:59.110 --> 00:15:04.070
of the provinces of China proper. So violence

00:15:04.070 --> 00:15:05.509
against missionaries was becoming more and more

00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:08.649
common in the 1890s. And violence against Christians.

00:15:09.149 --> 00:15:11.009
And violence against Chinese Christians as well,

00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:15.370
yes, Chinese converts. So the Boxers themselves,

00:15:16.149 --> 00:15:17.610
against this background, where did they come

00:15:17.610 --> 00:15:20.049
from? Their actual name for themselves in Chinese

00:15:20.049 --> 00:15:22.429
translates as the Fists of Righteous Harmony.

00:15:22.539 --> 00:15:25.480
They became known as the boxers because missionaries

00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:28.899
who observed them engaging in Physical exercises

00:15:28.899 --> 00:15:31.399
they performed in order to they thought would

00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.220
help make them Impervious to western bullets

00:15:34.220 --> 00:15:36.139
and artillery and things that of course it did

00:15:36.139 --> 00:15:38.259
not but that's what they thought Watch them do

00:15:38.259 --> 00:15:39.980
it thought it looked like a western shadow boxer

00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:42.179
And so they started calling them the boxers and

00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:43.700
the name stuck and that's where the name comes

00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:46.120
from in the western world They kind of came out

00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:48.519
of a shadowy pedigree. There are various ideas

00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:51.320
of where the foundation of the Boxers was in

00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.440
terms of previous movements and philosophical

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.340
thoughts and things like that, but there isn't

00:15:55.340 --> 00:15:57.639
really any clear evidence that any of that is

00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:02.360
true. They were first documented in Shandong

00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:06.179
province, which is the peninsula that sticks

00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:10.759
out towards Korea. It separates the Yellow Sea

00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.120
from the East China Sea. They were first documented

00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:16.700
there in May of 1898 and they quickly gained

00:16:16.700 --> 00:16:18.480
the support of at least some provincial governors

00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.779
and at least the tacit support of the imperial

00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:22.419
government, as Marshall has already mentioned.

00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.220
The Empress Dowager knew her army was pretty

00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:26.139
useless against Westerners at this point. They'd

00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:28.480
lost the two opium wars, for example. They'd

00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.759
also lost the war against the Japanese in 1894,

00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.360
1895. So her army was pretty useless and she

00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.279
spent the money allocated to rebuild her navy

00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.299
after the losses in the war against Japan on

00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:41.080
the Summer Palace. So she didn't have any navy

00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.059
either. Think she'd built like a kind of boat

00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:48.019
that was made out of marble with some of that

00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:51.139
money Yes, not not terribly practical for a marble

00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:53.659
a marble Navy. No. Yeah. So what did the Empress

00:16:53.659 --> 00:16:56.360
Dowager do? Well, she was anti -foreign. In fact

00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:58.820
her she hated the foreigners she and her court

00:16:58.820 --> 00:17:01.700
did So she turned to the Boxers to defend China

00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.599
against Western incursions Now it was thought

00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:06.960
that they could summon ancient Chinese spirits,

00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:09.859
which would help defeat the barbarians. So their

00:17:09.859 --> 00:17:12.930
success was almost guaranteed And remember that

00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:15.230
the Chinese Imperial Court was also ridden with

00:17:15.230 --> 00:17:17.170
superstitious beliefs of that kind. It wasn't

00:17:17.170 --> 00:17:20.410
just the Boxers. So these things kind of melded

00:17:20.410 --> 00:17:22.869
together to gain Imperial support for the Boxers.

00:17:23.049 --> 00:17:25.650
By 1899, because of the Boxers, much of North

00:17:25.650 --> 00:17:28.029
China was in anarchy and marauding Boxers began

00:17:28.029 --> 00:17:30.210
killing Christians first, Chinese Christians

00:17:30.210 --> 00:17:32.569
first. They then spread out to start murdering

00:17:32.569 --> 00:17:34.329
Western missionaries. They murdered their first

00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:38.049
Western missionary on December 31st, 1899. In

00:17:38.049 --> 00:17:39.890
that case, the Chinese authorities executed the

00:17:39.890 --> 00:17:43.029
killers and cooperated in the investigation and

00:17:43.029 --> 00:17:46.769
whatever passed for a judicial process. But after

00:17:46.769 --> 00:17:48.789
that, they ceased cooperating with Westerners

00:17:48.789 --> 00:17:51.369
entirely. And then the mass butchery of Western

00:17:51.369 --> 00:17:53.170
missionaries and their families was well underway

00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:57.730
by the summer of 1900. The boxers and the governors

00:17:57.730 --> 00:17:59.789
who supported them had no compunction against

00:17:59.789 --> 00:18:02.549
killing all missionaries and their families.

00:18:02.930 --> 00:18:04.630
There was a particularly terrible incident in

00:18:04.630 --> 00:18:06.910
the summer of 1900 where in the courtyard of

00:18:06.910 --> 00:18:10.769
one of the imperial governors, they brought in

00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:13.970
men, women, and children and beheaded 45 of them

00:18:13.970 --> 00:18:16.109
in a mass execution in the governor's courtyard.

00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:18.089
And they did it in the most cruel way you could

00:18:18.089 --> 00:18:21.630
imagine. They executed the Protestant missionary

00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:24.130
men first while the women and children watched.

00:18:24.309 --> 00:18:26.509
Then they cut the heads off of the women while

00:18:26.509 --> 00:18:28.420
the children watched and then the children. It

00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:31.460
was really awful. Then they brought in the Catholic

00:18:31.460 --> 00:18:34.079
bishop, priests and nuns and beheaded all of

00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.359
them as well. And all 45 people were killed.

00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:39.599
The Westerners remembered that and insisted that

00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.359
that guy either commit suicide or be executed

00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.299
after the conflict. And yes, he did not live

00:18:44.299 --> 00:18:47.000
long afterwards. The guy who was carrying out

00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:48.299
the executions. The guy who was carrying out

00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:50.339
the executions. I mean, he even got tired of

00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:52.240
waiting. So he told the executioner, he told

00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:53.799
the soldiers, grab your swords and cut some more

00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:55.480
heads off quicker. And they weren't very good

00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.819
at it, which meant it took several hacks. which

00:18:57.819 --> 00:18:59.500
increased the suffering. So it was really just

00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:01.720
a horrible, horrible, horrible event in the summer

00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:18.000
of 1900. Murders were common. Chinese Christians

00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.599
and missionaries and Westerners in general were

00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.099
trying to flee from the boxers who were drawing

00:19:24.099 --> 00:19:26.960
closer and closer to Peking. And in Peking, in

00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:28.759
June, the beginning of June 1900, they murdered

00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.759
a Japanese diplomat as he was on his way conducting

00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:34.900
business in town in Peking. By then, because

00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:37.579
of the outbreak of all this violence, a substantial

00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:39.700
number of foreign warships, including U .S. Navy,

00:19:40.460 --> 00:19:42.559
had assembled off the Peihou. The Peihou was

00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.240
the river leading inland to Peking from Tianjin,

00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:49.480
today called Tianjin. which was one of the treaty

00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:51.720
ports, Marshall, if I'm correct on that, right?

00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:53.819
And because it was a treaty port, it had a substantial

00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:56.799
foreign settlement outside the city walls, and

00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.140
it was in danger as well because of the boxers.

00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:02.460
These ships, foreign warships, landed sailors

00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:08.859
and marines in Tianjin. As the situation became

00:20:08.859 --> 00:20:13.230
more serious, a British admiral on the scene

00:20:13.230 --> 00:20:16.329
in Tientsin, mounted what's called the Seymour

00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:18.930
Expedition, named after him, Admiral Sir Edward

00:20:18.930 --> 00:20:22.970
Seymour. They set out for Peking on June 10th.

00:20:22.990 --> 00:20:26.329
They had 2 ,129 men, British, French, German,

00:20:26.529 --> 00:20:29.269
Italian, Austro -Hungarian, Russian, Japanese,

00:20:29.750 --> 00:20:33.089
and 111 Americans. And they got halfway to Peking

00:20:33.089 --> 00:20:34.950
in one day, but then they bogged down because

00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:37.130
they were relying on a single rail line to supply

00:20:37.130 --> 00:20:39.970
them. And the boxers found it very easy to cut

00:20:39.970 --> 00:20:42.519
the rail line. So they were forced to retreat

00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:44.500
at one way at one point. They got surrounded.

00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:46.960
They finally fought their way back to Tien Sin

00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.539
meanwhile the boxes began to attack the foreign

00:20:49.539 --> 00:20:53.539
settlement at Tien Sin and Chinese Imperial troops

00:20:53.539 --> 00:20:55.559
began strengthening the top blue forts, which

00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:57.859
were the forts located at the mouth of the river

00:20:57.859 --> 00:21:02.880
on June 17th the the Western countries and Japan

00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:05.869
had insisted that they vacate the forts. They

00:21:05.869 --> 00:21:08.910
refused. And on June 17th, the Allies stormed

00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:11.150
and captured both of the forts, as well as four

00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:13.650
Chinese destroyers which were operating nearby.

00:21:14.849 --> 00:21:16.970
So when the Allies attacked the Taklu forts and

00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:18.630
took them, that brought Imperial troops into

00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:20.910
the conflict. So now it wasn't just a conflict

00:21:20.910 --> 00:21:24.049
between the Boxers and the Westerners anymore,

00:21:24.890 --> 00:21:26.369
with the Chinese Imperial government standing

00:21:26.369 --> 00:21:28.150
back and watching and rooting for the Boxers.

00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:30.680
It now became an open conflict between the Imperial

00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.920
troops and the Boxers fighting against the various

00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.279
Western Allies, which became known as the Eight

00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.700
Nations Alliance. I realize I've misspoken a

00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:40.539
couple of times here and said Western Allies.

00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:42.960
We should remember that the Japanese were a key

00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.779
component of the Alliance as well and played

00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:47.099
an important role in all these actions that I'm

00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:49.000
describing. Finally, the Allies also stormed

00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.420
the walled city of Tianjin, and that gave them

00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:54.259
control of the mouth of the Pei Hou. Now meanwhile

00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:56.559
up in Peking one of the most dramatic events

00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.759
probably in colonial military history took place

00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:01.500
and that was the siege of the Foreign legations

00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:04.000
in Peking foreigners and Chinese Christians were

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.859
streaming into the legation quarter of Peking

00:22:05.859 --> 00:22:09.220
seeking refuge from the boxers And troops and

00:22:09.220 --> 00:22:10.740
civilians from the legations have been making

00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:13.220
sorties out into town and the surrounding countryside

00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:14.859
to collect missionaries and other foreigners

00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:17.759
Chinese converts and so forth and took the just

00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.640
shooting boxers on site The Chinese government

00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.720
gave the foreigners and the legations an ultimatum

00:22:22.829 --> 00:22:25.630
Either stay and be massacred or leave Peking

00:22:25.630 --> 00:22:28.809
by June 20th But the people in the legations

00:22:28.809 --> 00:22:30.509
assumed that if they did leave they'd be massacred

00:22:30.509 --> 00:22:35.609
anyway, so they they elected to stay And maybe

00:22:35.609 --> 00:22:38.910
proving their point on June 20th, which was the

00:22:38.910 --> 00:22:42.089
deadline for the the ultimatum for them to leave

00:22:42.089 --> 00:22:46.089
town The German minister in Peking and minister

00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:48.250
another term for ambassador used at the time

00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:51.269
Baron von Kettler. He went to the Tsung Li Yemen

00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:54.180
which is sort of a foreign ministry of the Qing

00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:56.400
dynasty. He was on his way there to do some business

00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.940
when he was murdered. When news came back that

00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:02.359
he was murdered, suddenly the people and the

00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:03.900
legations realized that, you know, they really

00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:06.200
had no choice but to try to stay and fight it

00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:08.700
out. So they ignored the requirement to leave,

00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:11.000
and on June 20th the siege began on that afternoon,

00:23:11.539 --> 00:23:14.000
with about 3 ,000 foreigners and Chinese converts

00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.819
besieged in the legation quarter. They were defended

00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:19.279
by 409 sailors and marines of the Eight Nations

00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:22.589
Alliance. Plus about 125 armed civilian volunteers.

00:23:23.269 --> 00:23:24.950
And there was another besieged area about two

00:23:24.950 --> 00:23:27.509
miles to the northwest in the Pétanque, or North

00:23:27.509 --> 00:23:30.170
Cathedral, which is a French cathedral, where

00:23:30.170 --> 00:23:32.990
3 ,400 people, fewer than 100 of them foreigners,

00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:35.029
were besieged. And they were defended by only

00:23:35.029 --> 00:23:38.529
43 French sailors. The siege of these two places

00:23:38.529 --> 00:23:42.609
lasted 55 days. And if you see the 1963 movie,

00:23:42.630 --> 00:23:46.170
55 Days at Peking, it stars Charlton Heston,

00:23:46.450 --> 00:23:49.369
Ava Gardner, David Niven. It's a work of historical

00:23:49.369 --> 00:23:51.509
fiction. It's not terribly accurate in terms

00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:53.109
of depicting the siege But it does give you the

00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:55.170
flavor of the time and it's you know It can be

00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:57.829
a fun movie to watch in that regard Charlton

00:23:57.829 --> 00:24:01.170
Heston gets to rescue a shady Russian Countess.

00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:03.390
He's in love with Ava Gardner or whatever and

00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:04.970
there's a romantic subplot. These kind of things

00:24:04.970 --> 00:24:07.630
go on in Hollywood movies. Ava was very shady.

00:24:08.549 --> 00:24:11.109
But in the siege itself people ate ponies and

00:24:11.109 --> 00:24:13.210
dogs. They were fortunate that there had been

00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:15.890
horse races nearby right before the siege and

00:24:15.890 --> 00:24:17.829
so the ponies are still around and so they brought

00:24:17.829 --> 00:24:20.049
the ponies in and ate them and that gave people

00:24:20.049 --> 00:24:21.990
a lot of food to eat during the siege. They also

00:24:21.990 --> 00:24:23.750
wanted to be eating dogs, but they were actually

00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:25.930
pretty well fed during the siege. They had enough

00:24:25.930 --> 00:24:30.079
water too. The boxers were militarily disorganized

00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.319
and incompetent. They didn't know how to aim

00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:33.839
rifles They just knew to point them in the general

00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:35.440
direction and shoot them They mostly were using

00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.140
swords and spears versus guns and artillery that

00:24:38.140 --> 00:24:40.819
didn't work very well and Neither they nor the

00:24:40.819 --> 00:24:44.599
Imperial troops Took advantage of occasional

00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.259
opportunities that arose to actually break through

00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:47.720
the defenses There were several times when they

00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:49.519
actually could have and probably gotten in and

00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:53.880
massacred everybody, but they did not Why and

00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:55.440
this is kind of interesting point it's part of

00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.630
misunderstanding China The people in the legations,

00:24:58.630 --> 00:24:59.930
especially the military people watching this

00:24:59.930 --> 00:25:01.390
said it doesn't make any sense. These people

00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:02.990
are idiots Why aren't they attacking us? They

00:25:02.990 --> 00:25:05.950
should have overrun us on day one Well, there

00:25:05.950 --> 00:25:08.930
are explanations partly because Chinese military

00:25:08.930 --> 00:25:10.990
leaders viewed weapons and equipment and ammunition

00:25:10.990 --> 00:25:13.950
they acquired as their personal property to be

00:25:13.950 --> 00:25:17.210
used with thrift and Necessary for their own

00:25:17.210 --> 00:25:20.009
power against one another They were disinclined

00:25:20.009 --> 00:25:22.630
to use a lot of that equipment or power to allocate

00:25:22.630 --> 00:25:25.549
it very effectively We'll see this again in the

00:25:25.549 --> 00:25:28.470
1940s, by the way. Well, we're kind of seeing,

00:25:28.470 --> 00:25:32.410
you know, that there's an imaginative take on

00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.769
China that I think we're seeing in the Boxer

00:25:35.769 --> 00:25:38.109
period that is going to continue all the way

00:25:38.109 --> 00:25:40.970
through, that there's more of a central control.

00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:46.880
than there actually really is. The Dowager Empress

00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:48.940
is sort of like letting things happen, but she's

00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:52.700
not really controlling things, and they're expecting

00:25:52.700 --> 00:25:55.240
that this is all part of some elaborate scheme,

00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.579
because this is the way we would do it. If we

00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:01.640
were going to do this, we would do it that way.

00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.440
That comment is spot on, because you're right,

00:26:05.539 --> 00:26:07.400
that the Boxers were this disorganized force

00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:09.160
that arose out of nowhere, that the Imperial

00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:11.680
If the Imperial government was just trying to

00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:14.259
take advantage of, the Boxers had no central

00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:16.599
control. In fact, they were just bands of different

00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:19.579
people with their own little separate leaders,

00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:22.000
separate rules, separate laws, separate costumes

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.200
they wore. Just small groups that all happened

00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:26.859
to have a common enemy. They didn't really have

00:26:26.859 --> 00:26:30.539
any common organization of any type. But even

00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:32.579
within the Imperial forces, which were more organized,

00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.819
you had less of a united front than the Westerners

00:26:36.819 --> 00:26:41.400
assumed. Chinese Imperial commander of the forces

00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:43.460
besieging the legations was a fellow named Zhu

00:26:43.460 --> 00:26:47.420
Leng and For one thing he didn't want to give

00:26:47.420 --> 00:26:49.740
another one of the other generals who was attacking

00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:51.819
part of the perimeter much of the artillery and

00:26:51.819 --> 00:26:54.039
ammunition that he controlled because again That

00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:55.799
was his he didn't want to empower the other guy

00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:57.920
at his own expense. This is common in Chinese

00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.819
military thinking It wasn't just about fighting

00:27:00.819 --> 00:27:02.380
your enemy It was what making sure you maintain

00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:04.740
your power against your fellow Chinese warlord

00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:08.069
or general which we're gonna see happen Very

00:27:08.069 --> 00:27:10.450
much so during the Republic. Yeah, we're gonna

00:27:10.450 --> 00:27:13.849
see that again later Anyway, and another issue

00:27:13.849 --> 00:27:15.769
is that there is some evidence that can't really

00:27:15.769 --> 00:27:17.950
be definitely proven but there's there's some

00:27:17.950 --> 00:27:19.670
evidence from things that he said and wrote and

00:27:19.670 --> 00:27:21.950
were recorded that Zhu Lung felt that the whole

00:27:21.950 --> 00:27:24.769
thing might be a really bad idea because if they

00:27:24.769 --> 00:27:26.329
went in and actually massacred the foreigners

00:27:26.329 --> 00:27:28.410
and the legations that it bring all hell down

00:27:28.410 --> 00:27:31.210
on on China and I Think he was probably correct

00:27:31.210 --> 00:27:35.450
in that in that yeah The outside world had very

00:27:35.450 --> 00:27:37.740
little idea what was going on in Peking Feared

00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:40.779
the worst there were false reports that the legation

00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:42.900
Population has already been massacred. There

00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:44.880
were memorial services held for them, even though

00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.099
that had not happened Seymour's failed expedition

00:27:49.099 --> 00:27:51.240
led to a belief that you needed an overwhelming

00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:53.759
number of troops to land in China and march in

00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:55.920
Peking their estimates that you need 50 or 60

00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:59.539
,000 or 70 ,000 to get there And it was not clear

00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:01.019
that anyone was left to save even if you did

00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:03.660
get there So kind of a lethargy set in and not

00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:06.359
much was done to go to go actually relieve Peking

00:28:07.189 --> 00:28:10.369
But finally a fellow named Ghazali a British

00:28:10.369 --> 00:28:12.369
general Alfred Ghazali arrived in China with

00:28:12.369 --> 00:28:14.250
orders to relieve Peking and basically he got

00:28:14.250 --> 00:28:16.470
out the ship came in and said Right then let's

00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:19.710
get on with it and put together a force of somewhere

00:28:19.710 --> 00:28:22.109
between 16 and 20 ,000 men It's not clear how

00:28:22.109 --> 00:28:24.829
many 2 ,000 of them Americans and marched up

00:28:24.829 --> 00:28:27.990
the pay ho towards Peking By the way, the Japanese

00:28:27.990 --> 00:28:29.690
and I think we mentioned earlier that the Japanese

00:28:29.690 --> 00:28:31.490
got a lot of credit for what they what they did

00:28:31.490 --> 00:28:34.829
during the During the the Boxer Rebellion. They

00:28:34.829 --> 00:28:36.549
very much they very much impressed the Westerners

00:28:36.809 --> 00:28:38.390
They'd actually did a lot of the fighting along

00:28:38.390 --> 00:28:41.329
the way and very successfully along the march

00:28:41.329 --> 00:28:43.029
up to Pei Hou. But they routed Chinese Imperial

00:28:43.029 --> 00:28:45.490
troops and the Boxers in a number of engagements.

00:28:46.069 --> 00:28:48.089
The Chinese force began melting away. They broke

00:28:48.089 --> 00:28:50.250
into Peking. They relieved the legations on August

00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:54.190
14th after 15, after 55 days. And during the

00:28:54.190 --> 00:28:56.670
55 days, 66 foreigners in the legations had been

00:28:56.670 --> 00:28:58.809
killed and two Adels and six children had died

00:28:58.809 --> 00:29:00.569
of other causes. But it could have been much,

00:29:00.650 --> 00:29:03.990
much worse. When you looked at the Boxer rebellion,

00:29:04.289 --> 00:29:08.759
Mike, did you find any Noteworthy people presence

00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.440
there during this. Oh, yeah, I mean for those

00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:15.180
who would be who would later go on to have Shall

00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:17.799
we say somewhat interesting careers? Yes, I can

00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:19.440
name two or three at the top my head So John

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:21.920
Jellicoe, yes who became the Admiral who commanded

00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:24.559
the Grand Fleet in the first half of World War

00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:27.359
one and the Royal Navy He was there. I think

00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.339
he was Seymour's chief of staff. I remember correctly

00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:32.519
There's another one who, another British officer

00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.119
who is probably going to be far more obscure

00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:35.579
to most listeners, but there was a fellow named

00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:37.420
Christopher Craddock who was a commander and

00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:39.779
he wound up fighting against Graf Spee's squadron

00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:42.759
in the Pacific in 1914 and went down with his

00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.480
ship there, so people who know about the Battle

00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:46.019
of Coronel will be familiar with Christopher

00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:49.369
Craddock. Herbert Hoover? Yes, was a young engineer

00:29:49.369 --> 00:29:51.750
who did some useful work in supporting the forces

00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:53.910
as they marched up to pay ho is my understanding

00:29:53.910 --> 00:29:56.970
Do you know more about that? Yes There was actually

00:29:56.970 --> 00:29:59.609
a persistent rumor because there is one person

00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:02.589
who was there that you have not mentioned and

00:30:02.589 --> 00:30:05.769
this was Smedley Butler He was a United States

00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:07.769
Marine Corps first lieutenant who served in the

00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:10.309
capture of Tianjin and he was wounded and promoted

00:30:10.309 --> 00:30:13.190
to captain for his valor during the Ghazali expedition

00:30:14.059 --> 00:30:15.960
He went on to retire from the Marine Corps in

00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.579
1931 with the rank of Major General, which is

00:30:18.579 --> 00:30:21.559
a two -star general. And in the 1930s, curiously

00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:23.599
enough, he became a vocal anti -war activist.

00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:26.000
At the time of his death in 1940, he was the

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.339
most decorated member of the U .S. Marine Corps

00:30:28.339 --> 00:30:31.640
in history. So the story goes. I don't know whether

00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:34.859
this is true. The only two people that could

00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:36.960
confirm it would be disinclined to do so, and

00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.740
that would be Hoover and Smedley Butler. But

00:30:39.740 --> 00:30:42.430
supposedly Smedley Butler found Hoover hiding

00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:45.150
amongst the women, and that this was some sort

00:30:45.150 --> 00:30:50.049
of continuing source of a rift between the two

00:30:50.049 --> 00:30:53.920
of them. That Hoover felt like Yes, Hoover did

00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.039
like a lot of his usual relief type work, but

00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.559
the fact that Smedley Butler found him amongst

00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.859
the women that did not necessarily look good

00:31:03.859 --> 00:31:09.039
and so So the rumor goes Smedley Butler had this

00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.480
to hold over Hoover and Hoover knew it and Hoover

00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:15.380
hated Butler and Later made him pay for this

00:31:15.380 --> 00:31:17.160
when he was president. So the Boxer building

00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:18.920
had many other repercussions. Yeah what I'm gonna

00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:21.940
get into right here. Yes With the legations relieved,

00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.319
Peking and the control of the Eight Nations Alliance,

00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:26.640
the Imperial army was in chaos, the boxes were

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.259
collapsing. So the Imperial court fled Beijing

00:31:29.259 --> 00:31:31.339
on August 15th, they headed south and west on

00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:34.039
a 700 mile journey that took them two months

00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.200
before they settled in at the Imperial governor's

00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.240
quarters at Xian, now spelled Xian, which is

00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.519
actually where that terrible slaughter of execution,

00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:46.859
mass execution had happened a couple of few months

00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:49.630
before. Chinese and foreigners looted and vandalized

00:31:49.630 --> 00:31:52.930
Peking It actually took until September 1901

00:31:52.930 --> 00:31:55.630
So over a year later before they worked out a

00:31:55.630 --> 00:31:57.730
a peace agreement between the eight nations alliance

00:31:57.730 --> 00:32:01.450
and the and the Chinese government Which required

00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:04.630
a bunch of things? China had to pay a huge indemnity

00:32:04.630 --> 00:32:07.170
65 and a half million pounds sterling and I looked

00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:09.130
it up and that would be about eleven point six

00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:12.250
billion dollars in 2025 dollars to be paid out

00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:14.569
over the course of 39 years It would take till

00:32:14.569 --> 00:32:17.609
1940 to pay it off. Only the United States, among

00:32:17.609 --> 00:32:19.930
the aggrieved powers, asked for it to be reduced.

00:32:20.049 --> 00:32:21.289
The United States asked for it to be reduced

00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:23.490
by a third, but nobody listened and it was not

00:32:23.490 --> 00:32:27.369
reduced. There were a lot of executions and mandatory

00:32:27.369 --> 00:32:29.329
suicides, you could be ordered to commit suicide,

00:32:29.549 --> 00:32:31.710
of the imperial governors and other officials

00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:34.269
who were responsible for supporting the Boxers,

00:32:34.630 --> 00:32:37.289
and this was done at the insistence of the foreigners.

00:32:37.970 --> 00:32:40.049
Greater basing of foreign troops in China was

00:32:40.049 --> 00:32:42.369
permitted and adjustments were made to foreign

00:32:42.369 --> 00:32:45.150
spheres of influence. Sharp -eared listeners

00:32:45.150 --> 00:32:46.970
will remember that I said that Italy had a sphere

00:32:46.970 --> 00:32:49.549
of influence by about 1900, but I also mentioned

00:32:49.549 --> 00:32:51.130
that it had been rebuffed when it tried to get

00:32:51.130 --> 00:32:54.369
one in 1899. Well, because of the Boxer Rebellion,

00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:57.150
it got one. So that's just one example of a change.

00:32:57.970 --> 00:33:00.589
Eventually, when the peace agreement was signed,

00:33:00.690 --> 00:33:02.289
the Imperial Court decided to return to Peking

00:33:02.289 --> 00:33:04.569
where it arrived in January 1902. So where did

00:33:04.569 --> 00:33:07.250
this leave everything? According to my research,

00:33:07.829 --> 00:33:09.750
foreigners really learned nothing from the Boxer

00:33:09.750 --> 00:33:12.839
Rebellion about China. Nothing at all. It just

00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.519
confirmed previous views they had, which weren't

00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.559
terribly well informed. And were kind of prejudiced.

00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:20.000
Oh, very prejudiced, because what foreigners

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.220
had come to do, and this includes really the

00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:24.839
missionaries and business people, and whatever

00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.660
military people were there, they viewed the Chinese

00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:31.799
as both foolish and evil people. Yeah. They thought

00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:33.480
they were prone to behaving like imbeciles, even

00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:35.900
when dealing with their own interests. If anything,

00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:38.319
their behavior around the perimeter of legations

00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:39.539
tended to confirm, at least for the military

00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:41.039
people, that they were idiots when it came to

00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:43.400
fighting. For example, right and everything about

00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:45.900
the rebellion seemed to confirm these views And

00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:47.640
the people the westerners of the time showed

00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.900
very little curiosity as to why the attacks happened

00:33:49.900 --> 00:33:51.880
Um, it's kind of interesting. They they just

00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:53.539
sort of viewed it as an act of god like a natural

00:33:53.539 --> 00:33:56.160
disaster So the chinese are like this and once

00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.539
in a while, they just start attacking you And

00:33:58.539 --> 00:34:00.200
this is one of the worst ones one of the worst

00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:02.039
attacks that happen That's just kind of how they

00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:03.740
are and there really wasn't much thought given

00:34:03.740 --> 00:34:06.680
to it beyond that. So Westerners learn next to

00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:11.070
nothing and I would argue that this was the prevailing

00:34:11.070 --> 00:34:13.570
view of Westerners before as well if anything

00:34:13.570 --> 00:34:18.510
this is just just it just elevates that absolutely

00:34:18.510 --> 00:34:23.150
theory yeah to a higher level yeah and and people

00:34:23.150 --> 00:34:26.429
would be disinclined to look at at the Chinese

00:34:26.429 --> 00:34:30.309
in any way other than that kind of like petulant

00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:34.190
children petulant ignorant children slow petulant

00:34:34.190 --> 00:34:37.909
children even Until you actually get to a sort

00:34:37.909 --> 00:34:40.769
of revisionism which starts with joseph needham

00:34:40.769 --> 00:34:43.309
and his whole research into chinese science that

00:34:43.309 --> 00:34:47.210
takes starts in the 40s But that's a story for

00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:49.469
another day. It's also not entirely clear why

00:34:49.469 --> 00:34:51.750
it happened from the chinese perspective either

00:34:51.750 --> 00:34:53.309
Yeah in fairness to people that are trying to

00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:54.969
figure out why it happened It's not really clear

00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:57.389
the boxing movement kind of popped into existence

00:34:57.389 --> 00:34:59.650
Uh that nobody was really expecting it. It just

00:34:59.650 --> 00:35:02.590
sort of Grew out of almost nothing as far as

00:35:02.590 --> 00:35:04.530
uh, both the chinese court and westerners could

00:35:04.530 --> 00:35:07.730
see This is the Chinese street. The Chinese street,

00:35:07.730 --> 00:35:09.750
yeah, erupted. Yeah, I mean, you know, you talked

00:35:09.750 --> 00:35:13.250
about the Arab street back in 2011 like that.

00:35:13.489 --> 00:35:15.269
Yeah, it kind of was like that. That's a good

00:35:15.269 --> 00:35:17.829
way of thinking about it, I guess. There are

00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:19.929
parallels. There are parallels of what we see

00:35:19.929 --> 00:35:22.190
in China that we see happening later on in the

00:35:22.190 --> 00:35:24.369
Middle East. Yeah. The Imperial Court wanted

00:35:24.369 --> 00:35:26.469
to kill all the foreigners in China. They thought

00:35:26.469 --> 00:35:28.409
the Chinese spirit that the Boxers could summon

00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:30.150
would help. achieved that purpose. They were

00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:32.570
very superstitious. The Empress Dowager had a

00:35:32.570 --> 00:35:34.329
tendency to believe the men around her when they

00:35:34.329 --> 00:35:37.090
assured her of success, and so she tended to

00:35:37.090 --> 00:35:38.929
agree with the things that they proposed. And

00:35:38.929 --> 00:35:41.170
so, Westerners learned nothing from the Boxer

00:35:41.170 --> 00:35:42.949
Rebellion, and it also achieved nothing for the

00:35:42.949 --> 00:35:46.210
Chinese. The Qing dynasty lasted until 1911 and

00:35:46.210 --> 00:35:48.389
1912, as we discussed, but the Chinese century

00:35:48.389 --> 00:35:50.469
of humiliation went on well into the 20th century.

00:35:51.190 --> 00:35:55.070
Yes. You can see why missionaries though after

00:35:55.070 --> 00:35:57.289
the experiences of all the atrocities committed

00:35:57.289 --> 00:36:01.449
against them in in 1899 1900 why they would particularly

00:36:01.449 --> 00:36:05.630
1900 they would be prone to want to live in Fortified

00:36:05.630 --> 00:36:07.570
compounds and look to their personal security

00:36:07.570 --> 00:36:09.329
much more than maybe they would have before they

00:36:09.329 --> 00:36:26.380
the events of the boxer rebellion And I mean,

00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:30.659
this has an impact. This has an impact on the

00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:33.880
culture, because the missionaries are leading

00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:39.500
ever more isolated lives after this. And they're

00:36:39.500 --> 00:36:44.519
kind of living in cantonments. Generally, at

00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:47.800
missionary colleges or at hospitals or significant

00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:51.300
settlements, it's not always people. there were

00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:56.079
people who operated small enterprises to kind

00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:59.739
of reach out for outreach. But by and large,

00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:03.659
the well -educated missionary would kind of try

00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:10.070
to be associated with an institution. Even before

00:37:10.070 --> 00:37:13.690
the Boxer Rebellion, there was the tendency for

00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:16.590
Westerners to live in foreign quarters. Yes,

00:37:17.170 --> 00:37:18.650
particularly among the merchants. Particularly

00:37:18.650 --> 00:37:20.369
among the merchants. But I mean, yeah, the missionaries

00:37:20.369 --> 00:37:22.489
tended to be more out in the countryside, and

00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:24.130
in that sense, more vulnerable. So what you're

00:37:24.130 --> 00:37:25.949
saying is what changed is that the missionaries

00:37:25.949 --> 00:37:29.010
now also were living in... Kind of splendid isolation.

00:37:30.030 --> 00:37:33.610
More fortified places, more removed from... And

00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:35.670
and I mean you might get you know If we if we

00:37:35.670 --> 00:37:37.730
try to look at our cast of characters and kind

00:37:37.730 --> 00:37:41.429
of see how try to infer a certain dynamic You

00:37:41.429 --> 00:37:44.329
would have people that might see the missionaries

00:37:44.329 --> 00:37:47.170
as the way ahead someone like Charlie song who

00:37:47.170 --> 00:37:50.530
we met in the last episode who's kind of seeing

00:37:50.530 --> 00:37:53.250
You know, let's get out and get on board with

00:37:53.250 --> 00:37:55.329
the foreigners because they can actually teach

00:37:55.329 --> 00:37:58.070
us stuff They can provide us with income, you

00:37:58.070 --> 00:38:03.320
know that kind of that kind of dynamic But it's

00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:05.900
not that they're actually, even though you've

00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:08.460
got people who are missionaries, they're not

00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:12.699
part of the environment at all. They're basically,

00:38:12.980 --> 00:38:15.519
they have Western clothing that they're wearing.

00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:20.239
There's no attempt to blend in the kind of furnishings

00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:21.960
and other goods that they're getting. It's from

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.820
Sears Roebuck. They'll go through the catalog

00:38:24.820 --> 00:38:27.179
and order things that way, or they'll get them

00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:29.900
from missionary barrels that'll come from Westerners.

00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:34.739
They're not necessarily attempting to even use

00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:39.840
Chinese -made tables, chairs, things like that.

00:38:40.780 --> 00:38:44.280
could be purchased in China and you know in in

00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:48.780
an earlier time were quite prized at least amongst

00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:53.380
Chinese merchants back in the 19th century. Food

00:38:53.380 --> 00:38:58.659
is American as American as it could be and children

00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:00.480
once they reached a certain age they were sent

00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:02.519
back to the U .S. to attend boarding school not

00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.050
unlike missionaries say in Hawaii. and they would

00:39:07.050 --> 00:39:10.449
be looking to go into eastern universities, elite

00:39:10.449 --> 00:39:13.329
eastern universities. Outside the settlements,

00:39:13.510 --> 00:39:14.949
the missionaries and their families would kind

00:39:14.949 --> 00:39:19.510
of gaze out into the vastly more impoverished

00:39:19.510 --> 00:39:23.389
Chinese peasants. There is a passage in a book

00:39:23.389 --> 00:39:26.610
about, that I consulted about Henry Luce, who

00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:29.150
we'll deal with subsequently in this program.

00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:33.679
where they're staring out and looking at their

00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:38.019
very nicely well -landscaped cantonment with

00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:40.980
trees and things like that, and they'll be wondering

00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:43.460
why the Chinese don't have any trees. Well, they're

00:39:43.460 --> 00:39:47.579
cutting them down to use them for fuel. And this

00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:52.730
just doesn't appear to register. Why are they

00:39:52.730 --> 00:39:56.309
living lives of such impoverishment? Well, life

00:39:56.309 --> 00:39:59.489
is nasty, brutish, and short and you have to

00:39:59.489 --> 00:40:02.929
make use of whatever resources you have and because

00:40:02.929 --> 00:40:05.030
you're living this isolated life you have no

00:40:05.030 --> 00:40:10.429
appreciation for what life is really like. The

00:40:10.429 --> 00:40:13.150
ways of the Chinese peasant are both curious

00:40:13.150 --> 00:40:17.849
and suspect and despite their intent to want

00:40:17.849 --> 00:40:20.670
to live in China They might as well be living

00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:23.110
in Akron, Ohio, for all the good it's gonna do

00:40:23.110 --> 00:40:25.690
them, for all the understanding that they're

00:40:25.690 --> 00:40:29.849
going to have of the place. The daily struggle

00:40:29.849 --> 00:40:32.969
of Chinese peasants at this point is not really

00:40:32.969 --> 00:40:36.750
something that fits into their calculations.

00:40:36.969 --> 00:40:40.050
So if you're a missionary in China, what you're

00:40:40.050 --> 00:40:43.949
trying to do is take the Chinese people and convert

00:40:43.949 --> 00:40:46.550
them into Americans. Yeah. Other than that you

00:40:46.550 --> 00:40:48.269
have no interest in them. That's right because

00:40:48.269 --> 00:40:50.369
because basically they have screwed up their

00:40:50.369 --> 00:40:54.409
life And I mean think think about this what we've

00:40:54.409 --> 00:40:57.550
encountered so far in China. We've encountered

00:40:57.550 --> 00:41:01.130
Opium wars we've encountered this huge civil

00:41:01.130 --> 00:41:05.570
war They're not finding a lot of things other

00:41:05.570 --> 00:41:09.969
than tea and silk and things of that nature,

00:41:10.010 --> 00:41:12.769
things that you can actually take back to the

00:41:12.769 --> 00:41:15.389
West that there's a market for as being worthwhile

00:41:15.389 --> 00:41:20.989
in China. There's nothing in terms of the oldest

00:41:20.989 --> 00:41:23.969
civilization on the planet that they're finding

00:41:23.969 --> 00:41:26.969
of value at this point. And a lot of them, even

00:41:26.969 --> 00:41:29.869
though initially there was a prohibition on learning

00:41:29.869 --> 00:41:33.380
Chinese, that the Chinese themselves imposed

00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:37.239
they're not necessarily all that familiar with

00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:41.099
with China they're not able to like deal with

00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:44.960
China so like in the case of Henry Luce who we're

00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:48.760
about to meet Henry Luce's father understood

00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:51.539
Chinese his mother never did and she lived there

00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:57.239
for like 30 40 years and It never really affected

00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:59.639
her even though she's living in the country because

00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:03.340
this is how insulated society is in your research

00:42:03.340 --> 00:42:05.800
remember in the America first series at one point

00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:08.820
we talked about the idea that if you were a Some

00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.579
kind of a failure in life if you were poor. Yes,

00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.380
it happened because you deserved it Yes, it was

00:42:14.380 --> 00:42:16.760
a moral failing on your part to be unsuccessful

00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:20.059
right that idea that that that pervaded that

00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:23.239
Protestant idea that Protestant idea I imagine

00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.579
that that was then transposed to China as well,

00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:27.139
that you're looking at these peasants and saying

00:42:27.139 --> 00:42:29.260
that they... They lead vicious lives. They're

00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:30.659
like that because of the terrible life that they...

00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:33.219
Because of their viciousness. Right. Yeah, which

00:42:33.219 --> 00:42:35.179
fits the... Like I said, they learned nothing

00:42:35.179 --> 00:42:38.059
from the Boxer Rebellion. It just confirmed all

00:42:38.059 --> 00:42:41.280
their worst, bigoted ideas about them. They're

00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:45.199
assuming a certain agency that just isn't there,

00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:48.300
and they don't really understand how the society

00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:51.719
works here. Let me just interject very briefly.

00:42:52.900 --> 00:42:56.380
This doesn't really comport with anything that

00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.960
I had thought about China. This is actually quite

00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:02.239
astounding to me, and I'm coming fairly cold

00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:05.679
at this, but I had no idea. I mean, this is such

00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.739
an ancient civilization, and one would think

00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:10.860
that it was more advanced than this. Oh, it was.

00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:13.420
It was. I mean, you know, this was the, you know,

00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:16.199
what we benefited from when we were in school,

00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:19.500
there had been a total revision. because people

00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:23.079
had actually had a chance to look at some of

00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:25.019
the stuff that were in archives and they had

00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:27.940
a sense of, you know, paper and gunpowder and

00:43:27.940 --> 00:43:30.940
all of those things that you get in basically

00:43:30.940 --> 00:43:35.199
like middle school history of civilization or

00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.099
history of world history. That stuff had kind

00:43:38.099 --> 00:43:40.380
of come through and that China was an advanced

00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:44.099
civilization was something that we understood

00:43:44.099 --> 00:43:47.340
at that point. Particularly particularly like

00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:49.599
when we're in school like in the 70s and stuff

00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.119
like that in China's like this whole new thing

00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:55.840
Yes, but it's like there is a totally different

00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:59.539
view about things In this in the early part of

00:43:59.539 --> 00:44:02.980
the 20th century that that is is radically different

00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:05.579
for people to for people's expectations here

00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:08.480
and understanding so clarify that then what Contrast

00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.119
the two forests will well more clearly than what

00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:14.539
you have in What it what it's revealed is that

00:44:14.539 --> 00:44:17.980
you have a society that was not that was very

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:22.039
much Far more advanced than Europe was for most

00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:26.219
of the history of humanity That led a much higher

00:44:26.219 --> 00:44:28.880
existence and was much more technologically advanced

00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.840
even with peasants even with what peasants knew

00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.980
about farming and agriculture and various techniques

00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:38.760
there were things that that that that China knew

00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.400
that the West didn't That's kind of that that

00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.900
took a while for people to find out about and

00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:49.039
that was that was something that that I Would

00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.059
say we kind of got a better handle on what China

00:44:52.059 --> 00:44:54.960
was capable of in the 70s in the West That's

00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.960
my experience before that and this is kind of

00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.300
jumping ahead and we'll get into this in the

00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:04.480
next episode China was kind of off limits people

00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.659
did you know like like people did not have that

00:45:07.659 --> 00:45:10.039
same appreciation at least particularly in this

00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:12.679
country the british were a little were a little

00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:15.219
bit different with regard to that but i want

00:45:15.219 --> 00:45:21.019
to ask you though again to to clarify so um when

00:45:21.019 --> 00:45:24.679
okay so when did we be we the west yeah become

00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:27.320
aware of chinese achievements in the past when

00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.239
they were so technology advanced that that was

00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.730
well before what you're talking about we we We

00:45:32.730 --> 00:45:33.969
quoted Ben Franklin at the beginning of this

00:45:33.969 --> 00:45:35.550
time, what a great society they were and everything.

00:45:35.989 --> 00:45:38.309
A moral society, but a technical society. But

00:45:38.309 --> 00:45:41.610
not the technical. The technical aspects. This

00:45:41.610 --> 00:45:43.809
is the result of a gentleman by the name of Joseph

00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:47.880
Needham. And and when and Joseph needon went

00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:51.539
over to China in the 40s as part of in the 1940s

00:45:51.539 --> 00:45:54.019
in the 1940s during the war But what about things

00:45:54.019 --> 00:45:56.199
like the Chinese invention of gunpowder? For

00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:58.360
example was well understood was wasn't it before

00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:00.880
that then that was a technological advance I'm

00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:02.380
trying to straighten out what we did and didn't

00:46:02.380 --> 00:46:05.300
know with Chinese gunpowder the way that the

00:46:05.300 --> 00:46:08.639
Westerners were approaching it in the historiography

00:46:09.529 --> 00:46:12.929
We, the West, we built cannons and our heavy

00:46:12.929 --> 00:46:15.469
artillery when we got gunpowder. They just made

00:46:15.469 --> 00:46:17.789
fireworks, right? They just made fireworks. So,

00:46:17.889 --> 00:46:21.090
trivial minded people who, you know, who are

00:46:21.090 --> 00:46:23.309
not necessarily, you may. Sure, they invented

00:46:23.309 --> 00:46:24.670
it, but they didn't really take advantage of

00:46:24.670 --> 00:46:26.269
it. That's right. We're the ones who took advantage

00:46:26.269 --> 00:46:28.409
of it, not them. Yes. And that's because we're,

00:46:28.409 --> 00:46:31.170
whatever, smarter, more advanced. And then printing,

00:46:31.389 --> 00:46:34.150
which is existing over there, doesn't have nearly

00:46:34.150 --> 00:46:38.699
the revolutionary impact. as it does in Europe,

00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:41.079
when the printing press comes along and it kind

00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:45.440
of fosters the reformation and things like that.

00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:52.820
With China, there's more of an attempt to keep

00:46:52.820 --> 00:46:56.440
society stable, and this is not something that

00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:58.719
is appreciated well in the West, because it's

00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:02.150
kind of counter to the way that the West, operates

00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:06.349
where there is constant change going on one through

00:47:06.349 --> 00:47:10.030
technology. China is attempting to incorporate

00:47:10.030 --> 00:47:14.170
the technology to keep society on an even keel.

00:47:14.710 --> 00:47:16.789
Well and there's also the the issue and we talked

00:47:16.789 --> 00:47:19.489
about it in earlier in this in this series that

00:47:19.489 --> 00:47:22.230
China was a universal empire. Yeah. And what

00:47:22.230 --> 00:47:24.369
was been found over and over again in human history

00:47:24.369 --> 00:47:26.809
is that in universal and well the Roman Empire

00:47:26.809 --> 00:47:29.590
is kind of a Kind of an outlier on this but many

00:47:29.590 --> 00:47:34.650
universal empires become insular complacent And

00:47:34.650 --> 00:47:37.309
they stagnate we talked about this Yes, previously

00:47:37.309 --> 00:47:39.809
and that certainly seems to be the case in China.

00:47:39.829 --> 00:47:41.949
They were making all these advances You know,

00:47:42.050 --> 00:47:43.650
we talked about some technological astronomy

00:47:43.650 --> 00:47:45.349
they were quite advanced and things like that,

00:47:45.409 --> 00:47:46.630
right? They were they were making all these advances

00:47:46.630 --> 00:47:50.489
at some but at some point they kind of stopped

00:47:50.489 --> 00:47:52.949
and started falling behind. And what you're alluding

00:47:52.949 --> 00:47:54.889
to is Europeans, and some people have said that's

00:47:54.889 --> 00:47:56.429
because Europeans all kept fighting each other

00:47:56.429 --> 00:47:58.289
all the time, they had to innovate to survive.

00:47:58.809 --> 00:48:00.650
Since they were not universal empires, they were

00:48:00.650 --> 00:48:02.489
constantly struggling with each other, and then

00:48:02.489 --> 00:48:03.949
they went out to conquer the rest of the world

00:48:03.949 --> 00:48:06.429
as well, they kind of erupted out of the scene,

00:48:06.989 --> 00:48:09.289
and universal empires like China were at a big

00:48:09.289 --> 00:48:11.590
disadvantage because they had not kept developing

00:48:11.590 --> 00:48:13.849
and advancing. With an inward focus, we were

00:48:13.849 --> 00:48:16.599
just trying to keep your society stable. Maybe

00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:18.019
you don't need a lot of those kind of innovations

00:48:18.019 --> 00:48:20.260
When the other side shows up suddenly and they've

00:48:20.260 --> 00:48:21.780
made those innovations and you're way behind

00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:23.579
them You're gonna get hurt for it and that's

00:48:23.579 --> 00:48:25.420
what happened with China and it happened to others

00:48:25.420 --> 00:48:28.500
as well. Yes it's happened to other places as

00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:33.519
well and You know some people who are into eugenics

00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.840
Which seems to be a constant with with this podcast

00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.500
us talking about eugenicist There is a notion

00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:43.360
that Hey, this is what you know, this constant

00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.639
change is what you need to order in order to

00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:49.320
be a proper civilization here Oh Contrary, that

00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:53.980
is not the case. That is that is a Kind of an

00:48:53.980 --> 00:48:57.000
accent of history do not do not do not mistake

00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.800
an accent of history that kind of results in

00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:03.480
a certain certain pathway To being something

00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.940
that's genetic. Yeah, the problem you Genesis

00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:09.440
the problem with eugenics is that they keep ascribing

00:49:09.820 --> 00:49:13.360
historical and cultural outcomes to innate genetic

00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:17.719
Traits. Yes, and that's nonsense. It is you know,

00:49:17.780 --> 00:49:19.920
like there's there's like some sort of spirit

00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.760
or something I mean if you if what when they

00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.880
assert this if you try to pick it apart You can

00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:29.659
actually get to how nonsensical this is but it's

00:49:29.659 --> 00:49:32.800
but it's like Until you actually pick it apart

00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:36.159
it it, you know, you know, of course, you know

00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:38.400
Germans are better than anybody else or whoever's

00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.780
better than anybody else. You get that kind of

00:49:40.780 --> 00:50:01.139
argument So, Henry Luce was a product of this

00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:03.539
whole missionary culture here. He grew up in

00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:07.239
China. His parents were missionaries. As I said,

00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.360
his father was more adept at the Chinese language

00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:15.000
than he was. Henry Luce, after... Growing up

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.099
and going to a boarding school in China, he went

00:50:19.099 --> 00:50:22.380
to Hotchkiss, which was a preparatory school

00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:24.780
for Eastern elite colleges, and then to Yale.

00:50:25.710 --> 00:50:29.269
And in 1923, he would go on to found what became

00:50:29.269 --> 00:50:32.610
Time Life Incorporated, relying on generous donations

00:50:32.610 --> 00:50:35.630
from fellow alumni at Yale to provide financing.

00:50:36.550 --> 00:50:39.449
One might think that missionaries were good about

00:50:39.449 --> 00:50:42.409
raising money. Henry learned how to make money

00:50:42.409 --> 00:50:46.960
from his background there. he's very much a man

00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:51.699
in his in his uh in sync with his era 1920s america's

00:50:51.699 --> 00:50:53.920
when there was general interest news magazines

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:56.679
were coming up and were were most popular this

00:50:56.679 --> 00:51:01.659
is before radio but the idea was that these magazines

00:51:01.659 --> 00:51:06.389
would provide a more in -depth coverage of International

00:51:06.389 --> 00:51:09.110
and local events so news magazines were an innovation

00:51:09.110 --> 00:51:11.530
of the of the 1920. Yes I did not realize that

00:51:11.530 --> 00:51:13.530
I mean you didn't have I mean you would have

00:51:13.530 --> 00:51:16.449
general interest magazines, but having things

00:51:16.449 --> 00:51:20.750
like life Life didn't happen until the 30s But

00:51:20.750 --> 00:51:24.110
you know things like look and newsweek and things

00:51:24.110 --> 00:51:26.230
like these are very much these are things that

00:51:26.230 --> 00:51:28.949
actually Come about during that period you would

00:51:28.949 --> 00:51:30.769
have the kind of magazines you would have would

00:51:30.769 --> 00:51:34.309
be something like the Atlantic where You wouldn't

00:51:34.309 --> 00:51:37.130
try to summarize the whole weeks activity right

00:51:37.130 --> 00:51:40.030
you would have columnist come in and write what

00:51:40.030 --> 00:51:42.349
they wanted to write. Yeah, you had women's magazines,

00:51:42.710 --> 00:51:45.849
there were engineering magazines, naval magazines,

00:51:46.090 --> 00:51:48.730
you know, and his idea was to basically say,

00:51:48.969 --> 00:51:51.550
okay, so, I mean, you also the readers digest

00:51:51.550 --> 00:51:54.090
as well, but it was all about trying to condense

00:51:54.090 --> 00:51:57.309
things down. In a sense, these are these are

00:51:57.309 --> 00:52:00.769
kind of like the internet of their day of being

00:52:00.769 --> 00:52:03.210
able to sort of like go through and summarize

00:52:03.210 --> 00:52:06.429
the news for people that Otherwise might not

00:52:06.429 --> 00:52:09.849
be able to do so now they are relying exclusively

00:52:09.849 --> 00:52:14.150
on wire services initially which And and the

00:52:14.150 --> 00:52:15.909
way that they do it. It's all about packaging

00:52:15.909 --> 00:52:19.349
They have like a weird sort of what was called

00:52:19.349 --> 00:52:23.090
time speak which would rely on things like the

00:52:23.090 --> 00:52:27.610
German syntax for example to try and Pep up how

00:52:27.610 --> 00:52:30.710
the news was being was being presented. So loose

00:52:30.710 --> 00:52:33.929
is an innovator of the media of the time and

00:52:33.929 --> 00:52:37.429
eventually he would deploy a number of correspondents

00:52:37.429 --> 00:52:40.289
around the world to include China, whose messages

00:52:40.289 --> 00:52:43.070
would be crafted not to reflect their perceptions

00:52:43.070 --> 00:52:47.309
but Luce's own. Overseas presence would certainly

00:52:47.309 --> 00:52:50.929
increase by the mid -1930s with the initiation

00:52:50.929 --> 00:52:54.849
of Luce's second leading publication, Life Magazine.

00:52:55.880 --> 00:52:58.260
Life pioneered in the field of photojournalism.

00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.159
You cannot do that. You cannot do photojournalism

00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:03.739
just relying on wire service reporting. You kind

00:53:03.739 --> 00:53:06.960
of have to have people be there. And life became,

00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:11.900
even more so than time, became like the vehicle

00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:15.380
kind of demonstrating what was going on in China.

00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:19.389
There's a famous picture. that was taken of a

00:53:19.389 --> 00:53:22.289
baby crying in the middle of some rubble that

00:53:22.289 --> 00:53:25.210
appeared in life. This would not have been something

00:53:25.210 --> 00:53:27.329
you would have found in the days before there

00:53:27.329 --> 00:53:29.869
was such a thing as photojournalism. And this

00:53:29.869 --> 00:53:33.190
was a powerful message. It kind of illustrated

00:53:33.190 --> 00:53:38.690
and developed support for the Chinese in their

00:53:38.690 --> 00:53:40.630
fight with the Japanese here. There'd been a

00:53:40.630 --> 00:53:42.610
Japanese air raid and the photographer got a

00:53:42.610 --> 00:53:45.429
picture of, like you said, this little toddler

00:53:45.429 --> 00:53:49.210
baby Yeah sitting sitting upright in the middle

00:53:49.210 --> 00:53:50.869
of the rubble crying the street or something

00:53:50.869 --> 00:53:55.289
crying and injured too. I think yes Burns yes,

00:53:55.750 --> 00:53:57.869
I'm told that that child eventually grew up and

00:53:57.869 --> 00:54:00.869
lived a decent life, but Yeah, it was a very

00:54:00.869 --> 00:54:04.750
dramatic photo and and this is but this sort

00:54:04.750 --> 00:54:08.570
of message is Is consistent with what the regime

00:54:08.570 --> 00:54:12.489
wants to be? presented, and in this case, Luce

00:54:12.489 --> 00:54:16.150
was very working kind of hand in glove with them

00:54:16.150 --> 00:54:19.469
and in support of the nationalist government.

00:54:21.409 --> 00:54:25.230
At this point, we're going to leave Henry Luce

00:54:25.230 --> 00:54:31.269
and we're going to end this episode. In the forthcoming

00:54:31.269 --> 00:54:33.690
episode, we're going to actually look at how

00:54:33.690 --> 00:54:37.349
the government is functioning in China and what

00:54:37.349 --> 00:54:40.550
people like Luce are doing in order to further

00:54:40.550 --> 00:54:47.010
its ends. That's it for this episode of the United

00:54:47.010 --> 00:54:50.170
States of Amnesia. Thank you for listening. We

00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:52.510
hope you learned something and we hope you discovered

00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:54.769
new ways of looking at things you had already

00:54:54.769 --> 00:54:57.889
heard or thought about, or perhaps hadn't heard

00:54:57.889 --> 00:55:00.829
about. If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we

00:55:00.829 --> 00:55:04.400
made you mad, that's okay too. Either way. Email

00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:08.719
us at USA .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know

00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:11.320
what you think. Also, let us know about anything

00:55:11.320 --> 00:55:13.659
you think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to

00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:16.920
know about that too. And of course, please like

00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:18.960
and subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:22.679
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:29.559
.usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike and myself,

00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:31.659
Blake Henke. Till next time.