202: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - Conflict Follows Trade

WEBVTT

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Welcome back. We were discussing how the British

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approach dealing with trade obstacles in China

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and opium proved to be a solution to some of

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these. And the Americans, unlike the British,

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whose interest in China were represented by the

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monolithic East India Company, didn't take the

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same approach as the British did. Welcome to

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the United States of Amnesia. You found us. Thank

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you. We are the podcast that reminds us. of what

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we have forgotten it is often said that history

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repeats itself mark twain allegedly said that

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history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes ecclesiastes

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probably said it best in chapter 1 verse 9 quote

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everything that has been will be again everything

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that has been done will be done again there is

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nothing new under the sun close quote But over

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time, many topics have become clouded by biases

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and oversimplifications, or have become mythologized

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and now are misunderstood. Misunderstanding means

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learning the wrong lessons from history, perhaps,

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or even learning nothing at all. And that can

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leave us poorly prepared for history's next rhyme.

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In this episode, we will cover American trade

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with China from approximately 1790 to 1860. We

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will cover in -depth American trade with China,

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including ginseng, fur seal pelts, sandalwood,

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sea cucumbers, and we will end with the discussion

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of the opium wars, at least the first opium war

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in 1839. and a discussion of Chinese diplomatic

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exceptionalism. American traders attempted to

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find other products that they could swap for

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Chinese goods, but they didn't really have a

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good appreciation of what the market was like

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that they were trying to become a part of. There

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was not really a good sense of market, and the

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outsiders were not really permitted to gain this

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understanding due to restrictions that the Chinese

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had imposed on Westerners. Americans, and indeed

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most Europeans, had a poor grasp of the actual

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state of China. And I'm going to say that this

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is a phenomenon that is going to continue into

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the 20th, if not the 21st century. There is a

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sense that there's this vast market, vast untapped

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market for American and European goods if greater

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access was permitted. China in this stage is

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still Cathay, a kind of mythical place whose

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comings and goings were understood to mirror

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that which was seen depicted on Chinese porcelain

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or artifacts. Accurate books... on the subject

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of China were in very short supply during this

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period. And if anything, they tended to confirm

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these prejudice rather than to contradict them.

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This is a land of enlightened mandarins, beautiful

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women, and stunning landscapes. This is China,

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as far as the West is concerned. But to be fair,

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this is all they really had to work with in the

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way of evidence. However, a few people should

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have been sensitive to the shortcomings of...

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this methodology. I mean, nobody is going to

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look at pre -revolutionary France and assume

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everyone's living lives of Rococo splendor. No

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one would buy into that. Or even Britain, engravings

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by Hogarth. There are limits to what you can

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glean from artistic artifacts. No one really

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sought to question how they perceived the Qing

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Dynasty, and understood what its power was until

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the end of the century. For the time being, these

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were all unknowns here. Regardless of the problems

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with the methods, there was very little in the

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limited source materials to give American merchants

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a good sense of products that could be offered

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to offset the cost of tea in silver. which along

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with everything else was sort of creating a trade

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deficit. Throughout the 19th century, when China

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still had the upper hand as far as trade was

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concerned, American merchants would attempt to

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use various commodities to trade with China,

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often with long -term negative results. And we're

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going to talk about some of these. So the Americans...

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Some of this is about the dynamic that we're

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dealing with here. So the East India Company

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is going to say, okay, the solution is opium.

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We've got a monopoly on that in India. That's

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our solution. We don't need to think about this

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anymore. So it is a large bureaucratic company.

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America... America's China trade is being done

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by individuals. It's not being done by a large

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body like the East India Company. So therefore,

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they're going to be a little bit more competitive,

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a little bit more willing to... explore other

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options, and to avoid the kind of conventional

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thinking that goes along with it. There was some

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thought about creating something like an East

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India Company, but Alexander Hamilton explicitly

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rejected the idea of placing the China hand in

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the hands of a monopoly, which would be supported

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by the government, echoing the free market economy

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in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. American trade

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was a lot more dynamic than, say, what the British

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trade dynamic was. So the U .S.-China trade was

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open to anyone, and this had other implications

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as well. The China trade served as an impetus

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to create a large merchant fleet, which was in

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need of being recapitalized after the revolution.

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What had existed before the revolution had kind

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of been destroyed during the war. But consistent

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with U .S. and anti -monopolistic approaches,

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these ships tended to be smaller in tonnage than

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their British counterparts, leading to more ships

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going to Canton from America than were coming

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from the British. But you've also got to take

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into effect how much they're actually able to

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carry off and ferry away here. So Napoleonic

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Wars led to the United States gaining a larger

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share of the China trade because everybody else

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is fighting each other during this time period.

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So we were able to actually seize some of the

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share of the China trade during this period of

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time here. And for those who don't know, the

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Napoleonic Wars dragged on for about 20 years.

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20 years, yes. So this is a long period of time

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that the Europeans were tied down fighting each

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other. And I mean, we had problems during this

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period as well in terms of trade, because there

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is this period in 1807 where Jefferson declares

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an embargo where there is no trade at all. I

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mean, we think about when this just seems almost

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like something you'd experience during the pandemic,

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just this impossible situation that is benefiting

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nobody. But, you know, it also speaks to Jefferson's

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interest in a sort of like inwardly focused United

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States of yeoman farmers, quite at odds with,

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say, Hamilton's vision of kind of free trade

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and the United States as being a mercantile power

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here. A significant portion of what the United

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States imported for China was actually exported

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to European ports. So we became the middleman.

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We were kind of like acting in the role that

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the British were prior to the revolution, where

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they would send their ships, and they would take

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their tea and deliver it to the United States.

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We're basically bringing tea and other commodities

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to the United States, and then we're promptly

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exporting them to Europe. So the East India Company

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is defunct at this point. No, it is not. It is

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not. It's still there. It's still there. But

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now we're able to also trade on its turf? Yes,

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because there's a necessity that's at work here.

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And, of course, we do get into some interesting

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difficulties with semen being impressed and other

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disruptions to maritime trade that's going on.

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you know, an ideal situation. But we're able

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to steal a march on things. And it's not just

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Britain that we're delivering goods to. We're

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delivering goods to other parts of Europe, you

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know, which is... Annoying both the British and

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the French because we're kind of in violation

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of Napoleon's continental system by doing this.

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But we're also kind of circumventing monopolistic

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practices. There's smuggling going on during

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this period because huge taxes are needed to

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fight the war with Napoleon. And so you do have

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a whole history down in the southern coast of

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Britain. Lots of legends and stories. during

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this period where people are actually smuggling

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goods in to avoid having to pay the duty and

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getting goods at a cheaper cost. And you could

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have gotten some of those through American traders.

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The British have given the East Indian Company

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and would continue up until the 1830s, as we'll

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see, the monopoly on trade there. American ginseng

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is the first thing that we attempt to export

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to China. And it grows naturally here in the

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United States. Dominantly at the time, it was

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harvested in New England and in upstate New York.

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There was also ginseng in Canada. And this is

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something that the Chinese couldn't get enough

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of. To my understanding, ginseng was originally

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a Chinese. Yes, and it was highly valued within

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China, but just as there are different varieties

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of different types of products around the world,

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there is an American version of ginseng that

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was discovered first in Canada and then over

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in New England and upstate New York, occurring

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naturally. The only problem is... as would be

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the case with just about everything that we would

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attempt to trade with China over, once people

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discovered that this was a profitable commodity,

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the price suffered because everybody started

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exporting this to China. It's kind of like the

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kid's soccer ball. Ginseng is where the ball

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is. And so that's what everybody's chasing after.

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prices reach a certain level, they start to decline

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because the supply is much bigger than demand

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is. And so prices go down. So the price crashes.

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That happens to a lot of agricultural products.

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Well, and this is kind of, in a manner of speaking,

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we are exporting agricultural products of a sort.

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Of a sort. Of a sort. Ginseng is a root, right?

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What was it being used for? Well, Primarily,

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it's an aphrodisiac. And there's a lot of things

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that the Chinese are looking to get from overseas.

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We're going to get to those damn sea cucumbers,

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but those are actually thought to be an aphrodisiac

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as well. And among a certain rarefied type of

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customer who can afford advanced Chinese herbal

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medicine, ginseng becomes... you know, this magic

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cure -all for other things other than sexual

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dysfunction here. The same was true of rhino

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horn later on. Black bear spleens or something

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like that. Well, those are still a thing. They're

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still a thing. And I would argue ginseng is still

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a thing. It is still a thing. You know, I mean,

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people go in and talk about how great ginseng

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is, and it's nice to have a cup of ginseng tea

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at night, you know, but I'm not going to say

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that it's going to turn you into the love machine

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if you drink enough of it. I think it's a case

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of mind over matter. But it became a popular

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commodity. It was sort of like discovering ginseng

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was almost like discovering gold. It was something

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that was not widely known beforehand. And it

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kind of took, in the case of Canada, there was

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a French botanist that discovered ginseng up

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there. And then there were other botanists in

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New England and in upstate New York who discovered

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American ginseng. This was good enough. It wasn't

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the same as Chinese ginseng. but it was good

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enough for the Chinese market there. But once

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you get something that can be found in abundance,

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and this is what was good about ginseng, ginseng

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could kind of keep pace with the demand in terms

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of we didn't strip mine the ginseng. So there

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was enough of it to basically allow us to export

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and also... trade here and maintain a steady

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supply. Not so is the case with fur. And fur

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is another commodity. You know, you can say this

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is an agricultural commodity, but it's not something

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that's actually raised, but it is harvested.

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This was something that, within the larger context

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of what's going on in America with the fur trade,

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this is something that definitely presented opportunities

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to trade in China. But it had devastating impacts

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because it's kind of shocking that between 1792

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and 1812, 2 .5 million... Seal skins arrived

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in Canton on U .S. ships. U .S. fur traders kind

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of worked the islands almost on an industrial

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basis. They would have people deployed and they

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would go and club the seals. And they really

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had no natural defenses. And there were tactics

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that they had that were intended to allow them

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to slaughter as many seals as they could come

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into contact with. The scope of this occurred

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throughout the northern Pacific from basically

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northern California all the way up to Alaska.

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And these involve trips of about two to three

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years where people are going around, picking

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up pelts, going into Canton. Sealing, it was

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called. Sealing, yes. And that is a good word

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to use because it owed a lot in its approach

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to whaling. They are related. It's just you don't

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have mad Captain Ahab with his harpoon going

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after Moby Dick. You have some crazed homicidal

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maniac going in and clubbing seals on islands

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that they're unable to escape from. And to be

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zoologically precise, we're talking not really

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actually about seals, but actually about sea

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lions, which are a different. branch of sealdom

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well we're talking kind of about there because

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they have fur they're also called fur seals whereas

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yes true seals just have blubber so they're you're

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not really going to get any fur but the fur seals

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are actually what they're after yeah and sea

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lions but sea lions are a separate commodity

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to what we're talking about and they are valued

00:16:05.909 --> 00:16:09.750
less than fur seals so you have fur seals and

00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:13.370
then you have sea lions and the reason why fur

00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:17.480
seals are considered more desirable is just because

00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:22.559
of the pelts. It is a matter of the state of

00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.279
the pelts and this found favor with the Chinese

00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:32.039
and also found favor elsewhere too. So you kind

00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:37.179
of have a kind of triangular trade that emerges

00:16:37.179 --> 00:16:39.720
during this period because we're also working

00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.399
with the Indians, Native Americans to be able

00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:47.860
to to carry this out. And again, it kind of follows

00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:50.580
the same trajectory as, say, like whaling expeditions.

00:16:51.019 --> 00:16:54.600
So you have triangular trade is we get cheap

00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.659
consumer goods, beads, mirrors, jackknives, things

00:16:58.659 --> 00:17:01.139
like that that gets produced up in New England.

00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.319
Ships load up with these, they take them off,

00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.839
and they trade for pelts with Native Americans.

00:17:08.569 --> 00:17:11.349
And can I also interject here to also sea otter

00:17:11.349 --> 00:17:13.049
pelts, weren't they? Sea otter pelts as well.

00:17:13.109 --> 00:17:14.150
They were sought after as well, right? Yes. The

00:17:14.150 --> 00:17:18.809
sea otters almost became extinct. Yes. And yes,

00:17:19.049 --> 00:17:23.069
that's kind of what all of this is leading up

00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:26.589
to. Right. So those were sought after. Yes. So

00:17:26.589 --> 00:17:29.069
they were sought after, the fur seals were sought

00:17:29.069 --> 00:17:32.450
after, and then lesser was the sea lions. Yeah.

00:17:32.490 --> 00:17:39.089
Their pelts weren't as luxurious. And it's kind

00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:41.849
of like it depends on who the market is for this.

00:17:42.190 --> 00:17:46.210
Now, again, we're not talking every peasant home

00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:53.869
in China is buying this fur. This fur is limited

00:17:53.869 --> 00:18:00.299
to... a very rarefied, wealthy audience of people.

00:18:00.460 --> 00:18:04.819
So your customer base is somewhat lesser than

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:08.440
what you would think. But you would have... Again,

00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.220
the kind of... Lesser in terms of numbers. In

00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:12.839
terms of numbers. High status. High status. Wealthy

00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.880
people. Wealthy people. Yes. But not, you know,

00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.019
you're not going to have like the folks that

00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:21.400
you would see in Pearl Buck's The Good Earth

00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:24.259
going down to the market to go buy some fur seals

00:18:24.259 --> 00:18:28.940
or some sea lion pelts. This is a product for

00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:32.519
the wealthy here. But you basically sell your

00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:36.380
furs in Canton and then you get the Chinese products.

00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:40.740
that end up in places like Boston, Salem, and

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:46.059
New York. So this is a fairly successful enterprise,

00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:53.720
but what happens, like you said, is that we end

00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:57.380
up with declining supply and declining prices.

00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:05.579
The initial prices are marvelous, but then once

00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:09.980
you start glutting the market with oversupply,

00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:13.900
the price of pelts collapses. But at the same

00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:17.660
time, you've kind of killed off whole colonies

00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:22.140
of marine mammals here in order to kind of offset

00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:26.339
this difficulty. It wasn't until maybe the late...

00:19:26.509 --> 00:19:28.849
early 20th century or maybe the late 19th century

00:19:28.849 --> 00:19:30.549
that the United States actually started taking

00:19:30.549 --> 00:19:33.750
action to protect the fur seals, sea lions, and

00:19:33.750 --> 00:19:37.589
sea otters up there. Or any animal. Or any animal,

00:19:37.650 --> 00:19:40.450
really, yeah. But, you know, they've gradually

00:19:40.450 --> 00:19:45.009
recovered. Yes. But you had armed ships going

00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:46.369
out and trying to protect them and things, too,

00:19:46.430 --> 00:19:47.990
to prevent poaching and stuff like that and follow

00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:49.829
the herds as they migrated and everything. It

00:19:49.829 --> 00:19:52.049
became quite a thing. But that was off in the

00:19:52.049 --> 00:19:54.920
future. That was in the... In the 20th century.

00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:57.579
Early 20th century. Yeah. Before that happened.

00:19:57.660 --> 00:19:59.039
And there had been a lot of destruction by that

00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.900
time. Yes. You know, I mean, at one point you

00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:07.000
had huge populations of these marine mammals

00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.799
that were available throughout, you know, the

00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:16.599
northern Pacific region on small islands. you

00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:18.880
know just sitting there minding their own business

00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:20.559
and then all of a sudden people come by with

00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:22.920
with clubs and well the reason they haul up in

00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:24.420
those islands to have their have their young

00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:25.619
is because there's not supposed to be anybody

00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:27.819
preying on yes it's supposed to be safe and then

00:20:27.819 --> 00:20:29.720
suddenly people with clubs show up and they weren't

00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.039
adapted for that yes don't have a defense strategy

00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.700
and and they had 20 years you can do a lot of

00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:37.039
damage to a population and kill it off even and

00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.099
they did kept doing that's what we kept doing

00:20:39.099 --> 00:20:42.380
a very repeated cycle yeah with whaling Same

00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:47.200
with beaver pelts earlier on. Yes, yes. But let's

00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.859
move on from fur because there's another commodity

00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:56.599
that eventually the Americans discover is desirable

00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:16.250
in China, and this is sandalwood. Sandalwood

00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:19.289
trees are native to the Pacific Islands, stretching

00:21:19.289 --> 00:21:23.529
all the way from Malaysia and India, with also

00:21:23.529 --> 00:21:27.630
Hawaiian and Fijian sandalwood being available

00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:33.230
as well. The Hawaiian and Fijian sandalwood is

00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:35.549
not of the same quality as Indian or Malaysian

00:21:35.549 --> 00:21:39.869
varieties, but still very attractive. And by

00:21:39.869 --> 00:21:43.089
1812, the fur traders were starting to call in

00:21:43.089 --> 00:21:46.410
Hawaii to pick up shipments of sandalwood along

00:21:46.410 --> 00:21:48.990
with the pelt shipments that they were sending

00:21:48.990 --> 00:21:54.650
off to Canton there. So eventually this is going

00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:57.190
to become a growing concern, which will lead

00:21:57.190 --> 00:22:00.049
to the destruction of sandalwood forest in both

00:22:00.049 --> 00:22:04.250
Fiji and Hawaii. So this is not a botany podcast,

00:22:04.450 --> 00:22:07.049
but our listeners are polymaths and they can

00:22:07.049 --> 00:22:08.549
handle a bit of botany. So it's about to become

00:22:08.549 --> 00:22:11.430
a botany podcast briefly. But for those who don't

00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:13.589
know about sandalwoods, let's discuss what they

00:22:13.589 --> 00:22:16.259
were and why they were so important. True sandalwoods,

00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:17.680
there's some other species that are not true

00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.180
sandalwoods that are called sandalwood, but we're

00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:21.420
not talking about those. True sandalwoods are

00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:24.319
of the genus Santalum, and they're actually relatives

00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.839
of European mistletoe. There's seven species

00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.519
of them. And as you said, they were insular Southeast

00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.400
Asia, Melanesia, Australia, and the Pacific Islands

00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:35.720
was where they originated from. But they were

00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:37.599
brought to the mainland of Asia in ancient times

00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.819
by traders. And in fact, in South India, they

00:22:40.819 --> 00:22:42.960
had been naturalized there by about 1300 BC.

00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:44.700
So they've been there for a long time on the

00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:47.339
mainland. And they grow, since that time, they've

00:22:47.339 --> 00:22:49.619
grown in India, Southeast Asia, Southeastern

00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:51.759
China, and Taiwan, as well as in their original

00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:57.119
range. And why is sandalwood so... It's very

00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:58.779
good for wood carving. You can make furniture

00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:01.000
out of it and things like that. But it's also

00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.240
prized in traditional medicine and above all

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.579
as incense because it has a woody floral kind

00:23:06.579 --> 00:23:10.140
of a scent to it. And the wood can remain fragrant

00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:13.980
for decades after you harvest it. So you get

00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:17.740
a longstanding hit off the smell of this stuff.

00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:21.380
But it's important as incense in Hinduism, in

00:23:21.380 --> 00:23:25.319
Buddhism, in Jainism, in Taoism. Korean shamanism,

00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:29.380
Sufism, and Zoroastrianism. And sandalwood oil

00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:31.900
could be extracted from the sandalwood. And even

00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:34.440
today, that's very sought after, and it's very

00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.059
expensive. It costs several thousand dollars

00:23:37.059 --> 00:23:40.180
to buy a kilogram or a liter of sandalwood oil,

00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.400
even in today's money. So it remains a very expensive

00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.079
thing. It had an interesting impact on Hawaii.

00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:52.500
In Hawaii, it's called Iliahi. Hawaiians knew

00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:55.200
about it. Didn't really exploit it the way it

00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:56.380
was going to be exploited in the future, but

00:23:56.380 --> 00:23:57.619
they were aware of it. They were aware it had

00:23:57.619 --> 00:24:00.160
these aromatic properties. Westerners first became

00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.900
of the aromatic properties of Hawaiian sandalwood

00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:05.259
when they burned some of its firewood in 1790

00:24:05.259 --> 00:24:07.220
and said, gee, that smells good. It smells like

00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:08.940
sandalwood. Oh, what do you know? We have sandalwood

00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.799
here too. And so starting in 1791, they tried

00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:14.099
to export it to China because China was a huge

00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.259
market for sandalwood. But the Chinese viewed

00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:19.240
it as inferior to the sandalwood of Fiji and

00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:20.660
the Solomon Islands where they were getting their

00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:23.599
supply from at the time. And so the merchants

00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.359
found no buyers in China. But eventually, as

00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:28.200
you were saying, the sandalwoods in Fiji and

00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.359
the Solomon Islands ran out. And then suddenly

00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.619
the sandalwood market in Hawaii became much more

00:24:33.619 --> 00:24:37.339
attractive to the Chinese. So American merchants

00:24:37.339 --> 00:24:41.059
found that they could sell sandalwood in China

00:24:41.059 --> 00:24:44.519
for four times as much as they paid for it in

00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:48.779
Hawaii. So it's very lucrative for them. And

00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:51.279
for the Hawaiian royalty and chiefs, They had

00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:52.960
started developing a taste for Western goods

00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.180
and Western comforts, and they found that they

00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:56.779
could earn a lot of money that Westerners would,

00:24:56.819 --> 00:25:00.819
I shouldn't say money, actually. It wasn't really

00:25:00.819 --> 00:25:02.740
a money economy. They found that they could barter,

00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:04.819
I guess is a better way to put it, sandalwood

00:25:04.819 --> 00:25:08.339
in exchange for all of these niceties of life

00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:09.920
that they wanted to get from the Western world.

00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:13.559
There was one of the authors that I consulted

00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.880
when preparing this who referred to the Hawaiian

00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:19.380
royalty as using it as sort of like a bank account.

00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.519
They did. And in fact, they essentially took

00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.000
loans out against it because in order to fund

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.759
themselves, they would basically, in modern Western

00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:30.839
capitalism, they would sell sandalwood futures,

00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:33.440
right? If you give me this nice thing I want,

00:25:33.579 --> 00:25:35.680
you get some of next year's sandalwood, right?

00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.079
And because the Hawaiians never really had a

00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:41.359
capitalistic or money economy until Westerners

00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:43.160
showed up, and Westerners had just shown up recently

00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:46.940
in Hawaii, they didn't really understand capitalism

00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:49.039
that well, but they did grasp the idea of sandalwood

00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.859
futures pretty well. And so King Kamehameha I,

00:25:53.059 --> 00:25:56.420
who had united the islands, even placed a kapu,

00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.500
which is Hawaiian for like a taboo, on harvesting

00:25:59.500 --> 00:26:01.339
sandalwood for anything other than his own personal

00:26:01.339 --> 00:26:04.680
stockpile that he could use for his purchases.

00:26:07.210 --> 00:26:10.710
And eventually he started to see that if he killed

00:26:10.710 --> 00:26:12.150
all the saplings and harvested them too, you

00:26:12.150 --> 00:26:16.589
wouldn't have any sandalwood someday. So he actually

00:26:16.589 --> 00:26:19.329
put a ban on harvesting the saplings. So it's

00:26:19.329 --> 00:26:20.930
kind of an early recognition of the need for

00:26:20.930 --> 00:26:23.650
sustainable agriculture, right, for these things.

00:26:24.470 --> 00:26:27.930
So when the Fijian and Solomon Island markets

00:26:27.930 --> 00:26:31.970
crashed, and you were saying around 1812, sandalwood

00:26:31.970 --> 00:26:34.549
started getting harvested intensively in Hawaii.

00:26:34.789 --> 00:26:36.920
And that happened. It lasted from about 1815

00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:41.039
to about 1825 or 1826 was the most intensive.

00:26:41.180 --> 00:26:44.480
It may have peaked around 1823, but it doesn't

00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:46.700
matter. And then it started to decline in Hawaii

00:26:46.700 --> 00:26:48.059
just because they were starting to run out of

00:26:48.059 --> 00:26:49.839
trees. And it finally came to an end completely

00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.839
around 1840 when the supply of trees was exhausted.

00:26:53.500 --> 00:26:56.440
Well, what happened, as I understand it, is that

00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.930
his successor... King Kamehameha I, his successor

00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:03.130
did not take such an enlightened view towards

00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:06.329
Sandalwood and became even more aggressive about

00:27:06.329 --> 00:27:10.089
exploiting what was there and with really no

00:27:10.089 --> 00:27:12.009
thought for the future there. That is correct.

00:27:12.049 --> 00:27:14.630
You're stealing my thunder. In fact, he urged

00:27:14.630 --> 00:27:16.849
the chiefs to pay him, whatever you call it,

00:27:16.869 --> 00:27:18.569
tribute or something by getting more Sandalwood.

00:27:18.829 --> 00:27:20.670
And the chiefs then turned around and told their

00:27:20.670 --> 00:27:22.970
underlings that worked for them, burn the forests.

00:27:23.269 --> 00:27:26.410
And when you smell Sandalwood, put the fire out.

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:29.099
and go harvest whatever's left of the sandalwood,

00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:33.119
right? Because it's valuable. Imagine how destructive

00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.299
that was in Hawaiian forests. But that actually

00:27:35.299 --> 00:27:38.119
happened under, yeah. So it was a terribly destructive

00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.880
thing. There are four endemic sandalwood species

00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.460
in Hawaii, and they all did survive. But the

00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:45.819
population has never recovered in terms of number

00:27:45.819 --> 00:27:48.099
of trees or the size of the trees. You used to

00:27:48.099 --> 00:27:50.440
have very substantial trees. There aren't that

00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:52.440
many big ones anymore just because they're very

00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:54.900
slow growing. It takes a long time to redevelop

00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:59.019
a sandalwood. sandalwood trees so uh they weren't

00:27:59.019 --> 00:28:01.339
they weren't uh completely wiped out but but

00:28:01.339 --> 00:28:03.599
there were so few and they were so unexploitable

00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:05.380
that finally that the market collapsed around

00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:08.839
1840 um and in fact it's interesting that you

00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:10.480
know as you're mentioning talking about sandalwood

00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.859
futures there it wound up being a huge issue

00:28:12.859 --> 00:28:14.319
in hawaii we're talking about the environmental

00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.220
destructiveness of it but also it was economically

00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:19.579
destructive because The royalty and the chiefs

00:28:19.579 --> 00:28:21.859
were pressing the average Hawaiian more and more

00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:23.880
to go gather sandalwood for them, sometimes at

00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.339
the expense of things like food. Yes. So it had

00:28:27.339 --> 00:28:30.180
a terrible impact on the peasants, if that's

00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:31.640
the right word, the kanakas, they were called

00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:34.660
in Hawaii. A terrible impact on them, this market.

00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:37.859
Little side note, little interesting story, too,

00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.289
about it. There was a fellow named Boki. That

00:28:41.289 --> 00:28:42.970
was like his nickname, but he used it as his

00:28:42.970 --> 00:28:44.869
ruling name, Boki. He was a high chief and he

00:28:44.869 --> 00:28:46.789
served as the royal governor of Oahu, which is

00:28:46.789 --> 00:28:49.849
the island where Honolulu is. He was in a lot

00:28:49.849 --> 00:28:52.410
of debt because of sandalwood futures. So he

00:28:52.410 --> 00:28:55.450
got two ships together and set off in 1829 with

00:28:55.450 --> 00:28:57.650
his crews to go find sandalwood forests. What

00:28:57.650 --> 00:29:00.410
he had heard were in abundance in the New Hebrides,

00:29:00.589 --> 00:29:04.130
which are now called Vanuatu. That's a 3 ,500

00:29:04.130 --> 00:29:07.809
mile. to get there. He never came back, and he

00:29:07.809 --> 00:29:09.349
probably never got to the New Hebrides, and he

00:29:09.349 --> 00:29:12.250
was said to have been lost at sea. But I think

00:29:12.250 --> 00:29:14.349
it was in the late 19th century, some people

00:29:14.349 --> 00:29:18.690
went to Samoa, and they found out that Boki had

00:29:18.690 --> 00:29:23.009
been shipwrecked in Samoa and survived, and apparently

00:29:23.009 --> 00:29:24.869
decided to settle down in Samoa. He had descendants

00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:27.609
there. apparently deciding that it was better

00:29:27.609 --> 00:29:29.930
to stay in Samoa and start a new life than go

00:29:29.930 --> 00:29:32.109
back to Hawaii and face all those sandalwood

00:29:32.109 --> 00:29:34.750
debts that he had no way of paying off in the

00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:37.710
future. So that was Boki. So he's one example

00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:40.230
of the impact that sandalwood had in terms of

00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:43.970
both environmental, but also economic and social

00:29:43.970 --> 00:29:46.549
destruction that it caused in Hawaii. I mean,

00:29:46.589 --> 00:29:49.880
I have seen, you know, discussions about trade

00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:51.980
in the period that we're talking about here,

00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:56.799
18th and 19th century, where there will be pictures,

00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:59.980
you know, genre pictures, genre paintings, of

00:29:59.980 --> 00:30:04.319
women sitting around having tea at a table, not

00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.359
unlike the table we're sitting at right now,

00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:11.500
to do podcasts. And it's like... Where does all

00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:14.460
this stuff come from and what cost is being borne

00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.799
throughout the world in order to make this possible?

00:30:17.180 --> 00:30:20.359
A kind of mundane situation. So we're seeing

00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:26.200
economic problems occur in places that people

00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.660
who are drinking the tea or using the silk or

00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:34.460
eating off the porcelain have no clue about this

00:30:34.460 --> 00:30:37.319
whole thing about seals being wiped out or...

00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.799
Forests being decimated just to bring them that

00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.359
cup of tea that they've got. And it gets even

00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.740
worse if you start factoring in sugar and slavery

00:30:47.740 --> 00:31:04.039
in the West Indies. There's a lot of hidden things

00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:08.079
happening. that are not necessarily understood

00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:12.160
by the average consumer as the world is becoming

00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:15.440
increasingly imperialistic. I mean, I don't think

00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:17.460
there was any sense in humanity at that time

00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:19.400
of any kind of limitations on what nature could

00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:22.119
produce. Yes. Nature was big. Nature's big. The

00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:23.299
world was big. There was plenty of everything

00:31:23.299 --> 00:31:25.119
out there, and it would just keep coming back.

00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:26.400
It didn't matter how much of it you took. You

00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.259
just needed to find it. Just go find it and harvest

00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:31.779
it. Yeah. We know that doesn't make any sense,

00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:33.000
but it hadn't really occurred to people back

00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.359
then very well. So there is another commodity

00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.460
which we promised to talk about, and this is

00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:44.539
beche de mer, or sea cucumbers. So we're going

00:31:44.539 --> 00:31:46.299
from botany to zoology now, right, to marine

00:31:46.299 --> 00:31:48.680
biology? Yes, we are. Excellent, excellent. Excellent,

00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:53.960
yes. So the sea cucumbers are imported by the

00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:56.140
U .S., and they were meant to serve the Chinese

00:31:56.140 --> 00:31:59.319
consumer. Sea cucumbers are used to flavor food.

00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:01.519
You know, it's kind of interesting. We're thinking

00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:05.049
about spices. and flavoring ingredients coming

00:32:05.049 --> 00:32:06.609
from the East, well, here's something that's

00:32:06.609 --> 00:32:09.609
going to the East. I don't think that anybody

00:32:09.609 --> 00:32:13.390
regularly uses sea cucumbers as a flavoring ingredient.

00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:17.230
They were also used, like ginseng, to increase

00:32:17.230 --> 00:32:20.369
sexual prowess. And that has something to do

00:32:20.369 --> 00:32:22.950
with sort of like things that are longer than

00:32:22.950 --> 00:32:26.569
they are wide, which sea cucumbers are. Most

00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:28.369
cultures in East and Southeast Asia regard sea

00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:31.230
cucumbers as a delicacy. Yeah. Make several dishes.

00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:34.220
With sea cucumber in those parts of the world.

00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.059
So there you go. It was acquired from the natives

00:32:38.059 --> 00:32:42.700
in Hawaii like the sandalwood. And very profitable

00:32:42.700 --> 00:32:48.440
in the 1820s and 1830s. One Salem captain sold

00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:55.039
a shipment costing $3 ,500. And it went for $27

00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:59.950
,000 in Canton. So that's a pretty good profit

00:32:59.950 --> 00:33:02.970
margin there on a commodity here. It brought

00:33:02.970 --> 00:33:08.210
frequent clashes with the natives because there

00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:11.609
was really no sense of humanity about acquiring

00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:14.569
this, and there was a kind of industrial -type

00:33:14.569 --> 00:33:18.069
production in terms of harvesting and preparing

00:33:18.069 --> 00:33:22.569
these for shipment to China. And it was a very

00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:26.789
labor -intensive process, requiring labor to...

00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:33.470
under really poor conditions here. So these products

00:33:33.470 --> 00:33:36.269
have all helped, but they do not solve the problem

00:33:36.269 --> 00:33:40.369
of how to pay for Chinese goods. And this gets

00:33:40.369 --> 00:33:42.809
back to the lack of a universally recognized

00:33:42.809 --> 00:33:46.490
system of credit and ultimately creates even

00:33:46.490 --> 00:33:49.109
greater difficulties for all that are involved

00:33:49.109 --> 00:33:52.690
here. Western traders would have to engage in

00:33:52.690 --> 00:33:56.400
illegal activity. to provide them with the silver

00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.660
they needed to purchase Chinese goods, and this

00:33:58.660 --> 00:34:01.079
is through the opium trade. And this will lead

00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:04.400
to practices that were destabilizing to the Chinese

00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.960
state. The practices that China is adopting during

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.539
this period are meant to kind of safeguard its

00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:13.920
position as the Middle Kingdom. It's actually

00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.599
eroding it. Nobody realizes this until after

00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.539
it's happened. And ultimately, this isn't good

00:34:20.539 --> 00:34:25.000
for either side, as we shall see. So a critical

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:30.119
part of understanding what's going on with the

00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:32.840
Americans in China involves us taking a look

00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.579
at the British. So we're going to kind of go

00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:41.469
off on a tangent at this portion the first opium

00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:44.809
war and the factors associated with the opium

00:34:44.809 --> 00:34:48.750
trade. Again, we are not necessarily big players

00:34:48.750 --> 00:34:52.730
in this because it's kind of cumbersome. Opium

00:34:52.730 --> 00:34:56.769
is not as easy to be had by U .S. traders as

00:34:56.769 --> 00:35:00.050
it is for the British East India Company. But

00:35:00.050 --> 00:35:05.590
we are part of this, and there are factors associated

00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:09.730
with the opium trade that impact the U .S. as

00:35:09.730 --> 00:35:13.869
well, and the outcome of the first opium war

00:35:13.869 --> 00:35:18.809
is going to impact U .S. relations with China

00:35:18.809 --> 00:35:25.010
as well. In 1799, this is when the Chinese Empire

00:35:25.010 --> 00:35:28.969
made opium illegal, and no one in the West really

00:35:28.969 --> 00:35:35.369
cared. British and U .S. merchants that were

00:35:35.369 --> 00:35:39.039
involved in the opium trade proved more than

00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:41.840
capable of circumventing laws and permitting

00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.900
the import or sale. Now, part of this is geography,

00:35:45.099 --> 00:35:48.039
because in order to get to Canton, you have to

00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:52.699
sail up the Pearl River. And along the sides

00:35:52.699 --> 00:35:56.579
of the Pearl River, there are places where shipments

00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:01.199
can be unloaded of opium, exchanged for silver.

00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:05.360
And it's very difficult for China to be able

00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:09.659
to detect these. And even if you find them, there

00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:12.219
are other places you can go to. You can change

00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:16.059
the pattern of events. I mean, it's kind of like

00:36:16.059 --> 00:36:19.340
trying to master the drug trade now in the United

00:36:19.340 --> 00:36:23.989
States along the southern border. where presumably

00:36:23.989 --> 00:36:27.469
we have far more advanced and capable means to

00:36:27.469 --> 00:36:30.510
be able to look at the drug trade there. China

00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:32.949
didn't necessarily have the same resources. It

00:36:32.949 --> 00:36:36.550
had some resources. It did have kind of a navy.

00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:41.690
These were junks for the most part. Again, these

00:36:41.690 --> 00:36:44.949
were not double -masted ships, but they were

00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:47.929
single -masted. So they could use those to get

00:36:47.929 --> 00:36:50.309
around kind of what they're looking at is sort

00:36:50.309 --> 00:36:54.130
of like a brown water force that could go in

00:36:54.130 --> 00:36:57.230
and do patrols to sort of safeguard the borders

00:36:57.230 --> 00:37:01.469
here. However, since China is inwardly focused

00:37:01.469 --> 00:37:04.409
and not benefiting from competition, trying to

00:37:04.409 --> 00:37:07.050
avoid competition from other countries, their

00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:10.110
weapons are not going to be as capable as we

00:37:10.110 --> 00:37:13.170
will see in countering what's going to happen

00:37:13.170 --> 00:37:17.460
as far as the West goes. So problems start to

00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:20.860
develop kind of as we were talking previously

00:37:20.860 --> 00:37:25.300
about how things are starting to change around

00:37:25.300 --> 00:37:31.750
the 1820s and the 1830s. Along with the other

00:37:31.750 --> 00:37:34.369
products that we were looking at previously,

00:37:34.909 --> 00:37:38.590
we're also seeing opium spreading at the same

00:37:38.590 --> 00:37:43.429
time. And the Chinese becoming intent on halting

00:37:43.429 --> 00:37:45.510
the opium trade because they're facing all sorts

00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:48.690
of difficulties as a result of this. And this

00:37:48.690 --> 00:37:50.190
doesn't really make a difference to the British

00:37:50.190 --> 00:37:53.809
or the Americans. Again, they can avoid Chinese

00:37:53.809 --> 00:37:57.980
restrictions. The British had absolutely no consideration

00:37:57.980 --> 00:38:01.159
whatsoever about the impact of opium, as much

00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:03.679
as, say, we would have of clubbing a colony of

00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:07.880
seals. That's the kind of level that was involved

00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.139
here. The Americans, to their credit, and this

00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:16.260
is among kind of the evangelical Protestant community

00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:21.260
that would find opium. a bad idea. Up there with,

00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:24.739
say, alcohol consumption, probably it's considered

00:38:24.739 --> 00:38:28.980
part and parcel of that. And just as they rejected

00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:31.340
that, they rejected opium use. And there were

00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:34.480
actually one or two companies that traded in

00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:38.519
China that explicitly said, we are not doing

00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:41.639
this at all because of the impact that it could

00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:44.199
have on people. But the British are the ones

00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.400
who were who are leaders in this, and what they're

00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:49.719
telling the Chinese that they ought to do is

00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.480
they ought to just legalize it and tax it, which

00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.860
is something the Chinese could have done, but

00:38:54.860 --> 00:38:57.219
they opted not to because it was becoming too

00:38:57.219 --> 00:38:59.940
much of a problem for them to benefit from it.

00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:03.760
Now, Mike, you had mentioned when does the East

00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:07.639
India Company lose its monopoly? That happens

00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:12.760
also in the 1830s, in 1833. And there had been

00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:16.170
a lot of pressure from other merchant companies

00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:21.070
within Britain on Parliament to kind of get rid

00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:24.849
of this corrupt, monopolistic East India trading

00:39:24.849 --> 00:39:27.630
organization. The ideas, again, of Adam Smith

00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:31.550
are coming down from Edinburgh and wealth of

00:39:31.550 --> 00:39:36.630
nations and free trade. And these were the battle

00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:38.730
cries that kind of like undermined it. It didn't

00:39:38.730 --> 00:39:40.510
eliminate the East India Company because that's

00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:43.889
going to exist until the 1870s as an entity.

00:39:44.590 --> 00:39:46.650
It's going to create considerable problems over

00:39:46.650 --> 00:39:48.750
in India, but we don't need to get into that.

00:39:49.309 --> 00:39:51.690
But it's still going to be around, but there's

00:39:51.690 --> 00:39:54.170
going to be other traders that are going to be

00:39:54.170 --> 00:39:58.690
involved in China. Now, what this does, though,

00:39:58.909 --> 00:40:03.150
this may say hurrah for free trade, but it's

00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:06.170
bad news because of the implications. So the

00:40:06.170 --> 00:40:10.030
Foreign Office is going to support someone with

00:40:10.030 --> 00:40:14.840
plenipotentiary powers in China. who is going

00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:19.019
to be a government official, who will have access

00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:24.119
to the government for redress if something goes

00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:29.599
wrong here. That is the thing that comes out

00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.320
of this demonopolization of the China trade.

00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:37.300
And that is what is going to have huge, huge

00:40:37.300 --> 00:40:43.449
implications for how Britain and China and ultimately

00:40:43.449 --> 00:40:57.889
the United States interact with each other. The

00:40:57.889 --> 00:41:01.090
Qing Dynasty is trying to combat opium when it's

00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:03.769
also having its own difficulties. They're losing

00:41:03.769 --> 00:41:07.170
the mandate of heaven and a process which will

00:41:07.170 --> 00:41:09.909
continue until the early part of the 20th century.

00:41:12.930 --> 00:41:17.030
everybody at this point in the 1830s, there's

00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:21.630
a huge mass of people that are like buying into

00:41:21.630 --> 00:41:25.769
opium smoking culture. So it was a tradition

00:41:25.769 --> 00:41:29.489
among, say, the upper class gilded youth. But

00:41:29.489 --> 00:41:32.710
it also had spread, because as you're getting

00:41:32.710 --> 00:41:34.789
more opium in there, it's becoming more and more

00:41:34.789 --> 00:41:38.789
affordable, so that all social classes are indulging.

00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:42.750
This is including government officials, The gentry,

00:41:42.750 --> 00:41:47.610
craftsmen, merchants, entertainers, women of

00:41:47.610 --> 00:41:50.349
all social classes, according to one source.

00:41:50.590 --> 00:41:57.449
So, you know, from courtesans in Beijing, in

00:41:57.449 --> 00:41:59.969
the Forbidden City, all the way down to common

00:41:59.969 --> 00:42:03.250
prostitutes are using opium. It's also impacting

00:42:03.250 --> 00:42:08.150
the clergy, Buddhist monks and nuns, and Taoist

00:42:08.150 --> 00:42:13.139
priests. While we can say that opium consumption

00:42:13.139 --> 00:42:18.280
is not a direct cause of the fall of the Qing

00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:21.599
Dynasty, it's a characteristic that contributed

00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:28.840
to a loss of status and it destabilized the empire

00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:33.320
at the same time, both through direct and, as

00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:36.420
we'll see, indirect means here. What we're also

00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:39.280
seeing is that while this addiction is spreading,

00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:43.500
There is also, we're seeing a kind of turnaround

00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:50.940
among intellectuals in terms of a lack of admiration.

00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:53.900
The kind of quotation that we had from Franklin

00:42:53.900 --> 00:42:59.199
becomes more an exception than the rule. There's

00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:01.179
a certain amount of contempt that's involved.

00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.119
There's contempt for Chinese legal niceties.

00:43:05.849 --> 00:43:09.130
less of an admiration for China itself. Now,

00:43:09.210 --> 00:43:13.750
admittedly, they're only seeing a tiny sliver

00:43:13.750 --> 00:43:18.650
of what is China, one port city and various other

00:43:18.650 --> 00:43:23.989
areas such as Macau along the southern coast.

00:43:24.369 --> 00:43:27.630
They're not seeing the full country, but this

00:43:27.630 --> 00:43:29.869
is enough to kind of undermine confidence in

00:43:29.869 --> 00:43:32.510
the opinion of it. The Portuguese are in Macau

00:43:32.510 --> 00:43:35.920
by now. Yes, but Macau is also a huge trading

00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:40.159
area for... people who are involved here. There's

00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:44.079
a whole process that involves using Macau to

00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:47.840
sort of advance your way into Canton. We don't

00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:49.940
need to get into that because it's kind of a

00:43:49.940 --> 00:43:52.199
detailed one, but it was definitely part and

00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.760
parcel of how you would actually commence your

00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.219
operations in China. It was heavily regulated,

00:43:59.219 --> 00:44:01.880
and there are various documents you need to get

00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:07.769
and so forth. but we don't need to go there.

00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:09.650
But they've been there for a long time, is my

00:44:09.650 --> 00:44:12.769
point. They've been there since, what, the 1500s

00:44:12.769 --> 00:44:15.429
or something? In Macau. So that was one Western

00:44:15.429 --> 00:44:19.130
outpost or incursion, whatever, log standing.

00:44:19.349 --> 00:44:21.789
Yes. But that was about it, other than Canton.

00:44:22.050 --> 00:44:27.349
Yeah. We do have the emergence here at the late

00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:31.650
1830s of an official. an incorruptible official

00:44:31.650 --> 00:44:35.949
who would be consistent with Franklin's estimation

00:44:35.949 --> 00:44:39.369
of what all mandarins were like, and we will

00:44:39.369 --> 00:44:43.809
see what happens to him. So this is Lenz Bao,

00:44:44.110 --> 00:44:48.010
who is moral almost to a fault, and certainly

00:44:48.010 --> 00:44:53.210
moral to his own personal destruction. He is

00:44:53.210 --> 00:44:58.880
determined to eliminate the opium trade. in canton

00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:03.900
and he is appointed to to by the emperor to deal

00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:07.380
with this area to be in charge of this area so

00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:10.840
he starts off using soft power he sends a note

00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:14.619
to no less than queen victoria saying hey this

00:45:14.619 --> 00:45:18.619
is illegal y 'all are violating our laws by bringing

00:45:18.619 --> 00:45:22.900
this opium into Our country, it is having a negative

00:45:22.900 --> 00:45:25.260
impact on the people. Please, please, please,

00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:27.940
Your Majesty, use your influence to stop it.

00:45:28.019 --> 00:45:30.440
It is doubtful whether Queen Victoria even saw

00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:34.679
this. Note. But that was the first step. It would

00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:38.539
not be the last one because since he didn't have

00:45:38.539 --> 00:45:43.880
the ability to do that in January of 1839, he

00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:47.199
used kind of Chinese junks and other components

00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.099
of their coastal defense force to prevent the

00:45:51.099 --> 00:45:56.619
import of opium at that time. Two months later,

00:45:57.420 --> 00:46:01.460
He confiscates 3 .9 million pounds of opium,

00:46:01.460 --> 00:46:04.039
mainly from the British, but not only from the

00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:06.199
British. So just think about this. There is 3

00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:10.840
.9 million tons of opium lying around that's

00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:14.719
coming in in this one instance of time here.

00:46:14.780 --> 00:46:17.340
So that should give you a sense of volume here,

00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:21.260
at least volume that we would know about. In

00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:24.059
order to do this, he kind of, like merchants

00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:27.199
who were in Canton, he kind of held them under

00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:29.739
house arrest and prevented them from joining

00:46:29.739 --> 00:46:32.639
their ships. He was compelling them to basically

00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:38.300
surrender their supplies of opium. These are

00:46:38.300 --> 00:46:40.099
foreign merchants in China. These are foreign

00:46:40.099 --> 00:46:44.079
merchants, namely British merchants, that are

00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:48.699
involved in this. What we have, like I said,

00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.199
was we had a British trade representative who

00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:55.780
is affiliated with the British Foreign Office,

00:46:55.820 --> 00:46:59.900
and this is Royal Navy Captain Charles Elliott,

00:47:00.099 --> 00:47:06.820
who is kind of overseeing the British interest

00:47:06.820 --> 00:47:10.099
as far as foreign trade in Canton. He is a government

00:47:10.099 --> 00:47:12.780
official. He is not an official of the East India

00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:16.670
Company. What he's doing is he's saying, give

00:47:16.670 --> 00:47:19.789
up your supplies of opium. We will get you compensation

00:47:19.789 --> 00:47:25.409
in due course. And where they're going to get

00:47:25.409 --> 00:47:28.630
it is going to kind of determine what happens

00:47:28.630 --> 00:47:32.989
as far as China goes here. In June, the opium

00:47:32.989 --> 00:47:36.489
is publicly destroyed, and there is a blockade

00:47:36.489 --> 00:47:39.829
of the Pearl River. And the British are really

00:47:39.829 --> 00:47:46.269
suffering from Lin's methods here. They are trying

00:47:46.269 --> 00:47:49.190
to prevent foreign ships from entering the Pearl

00:47:49.190 --> 00:47:52.789
River, and this is, of course, the only route

00:47:52.789 --> 00:47:55.070
that you can get to to Canton, and it's the only

00:47:55.070 --> 00:47:57.809
place that you can trade there. And this is,

00:47:57.849 --> 00:48:02.309
again, all legal under Chinese law. And under

00:48:02.309 --> 00:48:06.090
international law, we would recognize a country's

00:48:06.090 --> 00:48:09.929
ability to kind of combat a legal activity as

00:48:09.929 --> 00:48:14.539
being a right that they enjoyed. I suspect that

00:48:14.539 --> 00:48:17.920
we would limit that to European countries and

00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:21.099
United States. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure

00:48:21.099 --> 00:48:22.780
that it really applied to everybody in terms

00:48:22.780 --> 00:48:25.260
of everyone's mind at that time, right? No, no,

00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:26.679
it wouldn't have applied. Given the tenor of

00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:27.840
the times, I can't imagine. It wouldn't have

00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:33.000
applied to, but nowadays, under international

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:36.019
law now, this would be considered perfectly a

00:48:36.019 --> 00:48:38.420
legitimate practice. Absolutely. I mean, we do

00:48:38.420 --> 00:48:41.900
stuff like this with... Drugs that have been

00:48:41.900 --> 00:48:44.260
confiscated. I'm just trying to make the point

00:48:44.260 --> 00:48:47.139
that back in those days, there's understandings

00:48:47.139 --> 00:48:49.980
between European countries and the United States

00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:51.119
about how these things are done, but they're

00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.500
not going to apply those to non -European countries.

00:48:54.500 --> 00:48:57.900
And the thing is, opium is still legal. It is

00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:03.179
a legal commodity. It would be like, say, we're

00:49:03.179 --> 00:49:05.320
trying to bring in bourbon or something to some

00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:09.019
country, a Muslim country or something. That

00:49:09.019 --> 00:49:12.329
would be kind of like, how things were done.

00:49:12.590 --> 00:49:17.630
So as the opium is being destroyed, Elliot is

00:49:17.630 --> 00:49:21.250
requesting assistance from the Royal Navy, which

00:49:21.250 --> 00:49:24.650
was the most significant, powerful maritime organization

00:49:24.650 --> 00:49:28.690
in the world. And he was seeking action from

00:49:28.690 --> 00:49:31.829
the Royal Navy to resolve this situation with

00:49:31.829 --> 00:49:35.349
the Chinese and how this is impacting trade.

00:49:38.619 --> 00:49:42.480
While the British at the time are not going to

00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:46.380
use defense of the drug trade, even though it's

00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:49.280
illegal, it still has sort of negative connotations

00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:52.360
among certain elements of the population, they

00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:55.559
did zero in on this treatment of British citizens

00:49:55.559 --> 00:50:00.050
in the port of Canton. as something that they

00:50:00.050 --> 00:50:03.309
needed to kind of like nip in the bud here. And

00:50:03.309 --> 00:50:06.570
the foreign minister at the time was none other

00:50:06.570 --> 00:50:09.730
than Lord Palmerston, and Lord Palmerston was

00:50:09.730 --> 00:50:12.250
a great believer in the rights of Englishmen

00:50:12.250 --> 00:50:14.730
throughout the world, and it would be Englishmen

00:50:14.730 --> 00:50:16.389
is what he would refer to it, not the rights

00:50:16.389 --> 00:50:19.750
of Britons back then. So as it turns out— And

00:50:19.750 --> 00:50:21.769
not necessarily the rights of any other people.

00:50:21.969 --> 00:50:24.050
Not necessarily, because the other rights of

00:50:24.050 --> 00:50:27.269
people, it's up to them to deal with. Yes. That

00:50:27.269 --> 00:50:29.389
is their responsibility. You go defend your own

00:50:29.389 --> 00:50:32.889
rights. I, as Palmerston, am going to defend

00:50:32.889 --> 00:50:37.230
the rights of Englishmen. So this was by no means

00:50:37.230 --> 00:50:41.909
a certain policy, sending the Royal Navy to go

00:50:41.909 --> 00:50:44.829
in and defend the rights of Englishmen. The Tories,

00:50:44.829 --> 00:50:48.670
who were the opposition party, were kind of like

00:50:48.670 --> 00:50:54.380
taking a very anti -drug position. And saying,

00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:57.119
well, you know, this is the laws of China. You

00:50:57.119 --> 00:50:59.880
know, we need to respect them. Palmerston managed,

00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:02.800
though, to carry a motion in Parliament by nine

00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:06.659
votes, which is good enough. And so essentially

00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:12.159
what we have is a force that's led by Captain

00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:16.280
Elliott's cousin. Admiral Elliot. So we have

00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:19.699
two Elliot's running around here that are involved

00:51:19.699 --> 00:51:24.480
in this. So we've got 16 warships with 540 guns,

00:51:24.860 --> 00:51:30.019
four armed steamers, 27 transports, and 4 ,000

00:51:30.019 --> 00:51:32.619
crack troops. 4 ,000 troops with the British

00:51:32.619 --> 00:51:36.179
military at the time is a significant number,

00:51:36.340 --> 00:51:39.519
significant portion of it just given how small

00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:43.659
the standing army is. They're all deploying from

00:51:43.659 --> 00:51:46.679
India, which is kind of a new and different kind

00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.780
of change because you have a base that you can

00:51:50.780 --> 00:51:53.539
forward deploy assets for that can get to China

00:51:53.539 --> 00:51:56.780
a lot faster than sending them all the way from

00:51:56.780 --> 00:52:02.219
the UK there. As to who is going to be paying

00:52:02.219 --> 00:52:06.539
for this, this rather expensive means of delivering

00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:10.719
a response, a note. from the foreign minister,

00:52:10.900 --> 00:52:13.800
well, that's going to be China. And that's who

00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:17.380
the British basically were going to hit them

00:52:17.380 --> 00:52:20.480
with an indemnity, and that becomes part and

00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:24.460
parcel of what the first opium war is all about.

00:52:24.940 --> 00:52:28.420
The British forces, so just... Keep in mind that

00:52:28.420 --> 00:52:31.360
the timeline, a year after all the opium has

00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:33.280
been destroyed, that's when the British actually

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:34.980
arrived there. That's how long it takes them

00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:37.659
to put things together here. So this is kind

00:52:37.659 --> 00:52:41.800
of interesting in terms of how long it would

00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:45.320
take for some of this process. So some ships

00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:49.400
blockade Canton, and other ships are basically

00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:53.780
proceeding along China's coast to blockade other

00:52:53.780 --> 00:52:57.449
ports. which are being used kind of for internal

00:52:57.449 --> 00:53:02.730
distribution of goods and products here. And

00:53:02.730 --> 00:53:06.230
so ports and rivers are being blockaded, heading

00:53:06.230 --> 00:53:08.570
north towards the capital, which is something

00:53:08.570 --> 00:53:11.889
that the Chinese have an issue with being...

00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:15.139
being attacked there. So the emperor is rather

00:53:15.139 --> 00:53:18.880
alarmed at this naval force that has shown up

00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:21.820
in response to his officials' ability to kind

00:53:21.820 --> 00:53:26.880
of like try to halt the drug trade. So he sends

00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:30.599
somebody to kind of negotiate with the British.

00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:35.960
Lynn is very strongly rebuked. Even though he's

00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:38.619
just following orders and policy, the fact that

00:53:38.619 --> 00:53:41.500
the British have reacted in such a hostile manner

00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:44.099
has kind of like put him in the doghouse there.

00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:48.539
So China's coastal defense force is totally outmatched

00:53:48.539 --> 00:53:51.900
by the British naval forces, who were the best

00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:55.179
in the world and had the most sophisticated guns

00:53:55.179 --> 00:54:00.309
of the two countries. So what the British wanted,

00:54:00.409 --> 00:54:03.409
they wanted Hong Kong. This is where Hong Kong

00:54:03.409 --> 00:54:06.769
kind of enters the British Empire. They wanted

00:54:06.769 --> 00:54:11.849
an indemnity of, to begin with, $6 million and

00:54:11.849 --> 00:54:16.670
to increase direct official contacts, meaning

00:54:16.670 --> 00:54:21.530
you're not going to be able to fob off the British

00:54:21.530 --> 00:54:23.789
representatives as being sort of second rate.

00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:27.719
and they would be treated as equals by the Chinese,

00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:31.900
which was sort of unheard of in imperial circles

00:54:31.900 --> 00:54:35.320
here. The official that actually negotiated these

00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:38.980
terms, this is the first agreement to kind of

00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:41.940
defuse the opium war, was a gentleman by the

00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:45.860
name of Quishan. However... When the emperor

00:54:45.860 --> 00:54:48.340
learned that he had agreed to all of these terms,

00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:53.820
he was threatened with execution, but later reduced

00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:57.800
to banishment from the court. He did not end

00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:02.519
with a successful career here. However, this

00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:05.780
kind of spells the end of Chinese diplomatic

00:55:05.780 --> 00:55:08.980
exceptionalism, which they had like promoted

00:55:08.980 --> 00:55:13.079
throughout the history of the China trade with

00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:16.380
foreigners. Because the British are not going

00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:18.500
to take no for an answer, even though the emperor

00:55:18.500 --> 00:55:24.019
has failing to ratify this organization. We get

00:55:24.019 --> 00:55:26.699
a new envoy showing up, a Sir Henry Pottinger,

00:55:26.739 --> 00:55:29.960
who replaces Captain Elliot. And he has more

00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:33.880
ships and more troops, and he's basically taking

00:55:33.880 --> 00:55:37.099
control of Chinese gun batteries along the Pearl

00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:41.199
River, seizing part of Canton. You know, he's

00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:43.420
definitely showing the influence of sea power

00:55:43.420 --> 00:55:48.519
on the history of the world here by moving things

00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:52.460
along here. So he and his forces agree to take...

00:55:52.650 --> 00:55:55.650
to leave for $6 million. Again, that was the

00:55:55.650 --> 00:55:58.070
figure that was originally discussed and deemed

00:55:58.070 --> 00:56:00.190
unacceptable. And I looked it up, by the way,

00:56:00.250 --> 00:56:03.730
in today's money. Yeah. That's $223 million.

00:56:05.150 --> 00:56:07.889
In case you wondered. In case we wondered. Okay.

00:56:08.989 --> 00:56:13.809
So once paid, Pottinger began seizing multiple

00:56:13.809 --> 00:56:18.170
ports along the coast of China. And again, the

00:56:18.170 --> 00:56:20.429
Chinese, you know, if we're talking, you know,

00:56:20.449 --> 00:56:24.090
we have talked about how, We were ignorant of

00:56:24.090 --> 00:56:26.630
China. China is really ignorant of the West.

00:56:27.030 --> 00:56:28.969
I was about to make that point. Yeah. Well, yeah,

00:56:29.050 --> 00:56:31.530
go ahead. I mean, you know, because they've been

00:56:31.530 --> 00:56:34.010
insular and they really didn't know that much

00:56:34.010 --> 00:56:35.449
about the world around them. And so when the

00:56:35.449 --> 00:56:36.849
British showed up with the capabilities they

00:56:36.849 --> 00:56:39.329
had, that was a surprise. Yes. Right. I didn't

00:56:39.329 --> 00:56:41.210
know they could do that. Well, now you do. And

00:56:41.210 --> 00:56:43.309
you found out the hard way, right? Yeah. It's

00:56:43.309 --> 00:56:46.010
mutual ignorance. Yes. Really. I mean, on both

00:56:46.010 --> 00:56:48.670
sides. Yeah. And self -sustaining mutual ignorance.

00:56:48.829 --> 00:56:52.190
Right. Because, you know, they're... And arrogance.

00:56:52.489 --> 00:56:53.949
And arrogance. If you think they're better than

00:56:53.949 --> 00:56:55.210
everybody else and have nothing to learn from

00:56:55.210 --> 00:56:56.610
them and you don't really know them as well,

00:56:56.670 --> 00:56:58.210
you'll show up and attack them and you'll win.

00:56:59.110 --> 00:57:01.329
Or defend yourself and you'll win. Then you don't

00:57:01.329 --> 00:57:03.389
really, right, have much curiosity about the

00:57:03.389 --> 00:57:05.409
other side either. Yeah. And I mean, that's...

00:57:06.329 --> 00:57:11.789
Kind of what some people view that as a failing.

00:57:11.829 --> 00:57:16.510
I would view it as a failing to know something

00:57:16.510 --> 00:57:19.670
and to be curious about other parts of the world

00:57:19.670 --> 00:57:23.159
here. Yeah, I've never understood how you're

00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:25.460
worse off knowing about other parts of the world.

00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:27.300
Oh, but you know there is— I don't know why that

00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:29.179
would be the case, but there are people who seem

00:57:29.179 --> 00:57:31.239
to think that. There are people who seem to think

00:57:31.239 --> 00:57:33.340
that. There are very much people who seem to

00:57:33.340 --> 00:57:35.679
think that. And so this is meant to be a cautionary

00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:40.699
tale to them. So eventually peace does break

00:57:40.699 --> 00:57:49.480
out, and this is in August 1842. And this is

00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:53.519
not so much as negotiated as it dictated to China

00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:58.760
by the British, following all of the actions

00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.360
by the Royal Navy. So instead of $6 million,

00:58:02.659 --> 00:58:07.139
they're forced to pay a $21 million indemnity

00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:09.659
on top of the $6 million indemnity that they

00:58:09.659 --> 00:58:13.380
had already paid to cover the cost of the opium.

00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:15.920
So they destroyed the opium, but they had to

00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:23.480
pay for it. And so the cost of the war and various

00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:26.139
debts owed by Chinese merchants to their British

00:58:26.139 --> 00:58:28.920
counterparts were also meant to be covered by

00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:33.380
that $21 million figure. Monopoly of trade at

00:58:33.380 --> 00:58:36.860
Canton was ended, and now merchants could trade

00:58:36.860 --> 00:58:40.099
at not just at Canton, but at Fushu, Xiamen,

00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:44.760
Niangbro, and Shanghai. which is then only a

00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:48.039
mid -sized commercial pub and not the major city

00:58:48.039 --> 00:58:51.780
it would later become. And the British also gained

00:58:51.780 --> 00:58:56.500
Hong Kong from this. And subsequent negotiations,

00:58:56.739 --> 00:59:00.460
and these were rather cannily conducted, where

00:59:00.460 --> 00:59:04.780
no one wanted to say opium trade, but it was

00:59:04.780 --> 00:59:08.210
kind of alluded to. And it was kind of understood

00:59:08.210 --> 00:59:12.250
that this was not going to be interfered with

00:59:12.250 --> 00:59:15.769
in the future. Do you know what the British called

00:59:15.769 --> 00:59:19.070
it then? We call it the Opium War now, but they

00:59:19.070 --> 00:59:20.889
didn't call it that then. No, what did they call

00:59:20.889 --> 00:59:23.489
it? I don't know. I'm asking. Do you have any

00:59:23.489 --> 00:59:25.929
idea? No. Let's figure that out. I mean, yeah.

00:59:26.070 --> 00:59:28.150
What their cover name for it was, because I've

00:59:28.150 --> 00:59:30.670
only ever heard it called the Opium War, or the

00:59:30.670 --> 00:59:32.949
Opium Wars. There was more than one. Yeah, there's

00:59:32.949 --> 00:59:36.090
a second one. Yeah, the Second Opium War, but

00:59:36.090 --> 00:59:38.889
I wonder what they called it back then. Anyway,

00:59:39.030 --> 00:59:41.429
I'll look and you push on. We're not going to

00:59:41.429 --> 00:59:44.369
necessarily get into the Second Opium War because

00:59:44.369 --> 00:59:47.090
the first one is the one that really has the

00:59:47.090 --> 00:59:52.829
impact on U .S. policy here. Right. So... The

00:59:52.829 --> 00:59:55.650
Anglo -Chinese War. That's very nice. Which is

00:59:55.650 --> 00:59:59.349
fine. Describes that, I suppose. It does. It's

00:59:59.349 --> 01:00:20.489
very nice. Let's talk about what all of this

01:00:20.489 --> 01:00:22.829
means to the British. I mean, to the Americans,

01:00:23.010 --> 01:00:25.750
what these actions by the British meant for the

01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:28.570
Americans who were also involved in the China

01:00:28.570 --> 01:00:33.610
trade, but not involved with opium as such. So

01:00:33.610 --> 01:00:37.650
one person who took, you know, the Americans

01:00:37.650 --> 01:00:41.610
were kind of thought this was outrageous. regarding

01:00:41.610 --> 01:00:45.309
opium. They kind of felt like they're drug dealers.

01:00:45.429 --> 01:00:48.429
They're kind of forcing their product on an unwilling

01:00:48.429 --> 01:00:53.590
China. And so there was a lot of anger. And of

01:00:53.590 --> 01:00:55.409
course, we didn't like the British back then.

01:00:56.190 --> 01:00:58.750
British were still our rivals. We had fought

01:00:58.750 --> 01:01:00.889
two wars, the American Revolution. We had fought

01:01:00.889 --> 01:01:04.210
the War of 1812. We were very anti -British and

01:01:04.210 --> 01:01:08.780
would be until the 20th century. The fact that

01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:12.019
the British are doing this, this just seemed

01:01:12.019 --> 01:01:17.579
awful. The one exception to this who took a typically

01:01:17.579 --> 01:01:21.760
contrarian view was John Quincy Adams, who opposed...

01:01:22.090 --> 01:01:24.590
Chinese diplomatic exceptionalism, and he basically

01:01:24.590 --> 01:01:27.969
argued the Chinese brought all of this on themselves.

01:01:28.690 --> 01:01:31.170
And this was a position that was so unpopular

01:01:31.170 --> 01:01:33.809
that the article that he made this claim in was

01:01:33.809 --> 01:01:37.070
rejected by the original publisher, and it could

01:01:37.070 --> 01:01:40.250
not be published anywhere. Flesh out Chinese

01:01:40.250 --> 01:01:42.190
diplomatic exceptionalism for us a little more.

01:01:42.369 --> 01:01:44.789
Well, it's basically... What does that term capture

01:01:44.789 --> 01:01:46.570
then? I know it's the Chinese attitude toward

01:01:46.570 --> 01:01:50.710
themselves, right? Well, it's basically... You,

01:01:50.769 --> 01:01:55.949
as a Western foreigner, are inferior. And you

01:01:55.949 --> 01:01:58.369
are to basically follow the dictates of China

01:01:58.369 --> 01:02:00.710
if you wish to have dealings with them. There

01:02:00.710 --> 01:02:04.670
is no give and take. There is no equality. If

01:02:04.670 --> 01:02:07.909
you want to visualize this, imagine you have

01:02:07.909 --> 01:02:10.289
to kowtow to the emperor when you're going in

01:02:10.289 --> 01:02:14.289
there. You're not just doing a polite bow like

01:02:14.289 --> 01:02:17.750
what would be accepted in European circles. You've

01:02:17.750 --> 01:02:19.510
come to the Middle Kingdom. We're at the center

01:02:19.510 --> 01:02:22.789
of things. You're on the periphery. Yes. So you

01:02:22.789 --> 01:02:24.550
will do... You will follow our... And so what

01:02:24.550 --> 01:02:27.409
Adams is kind of like saying is that, okay, China,

01:02:27.510 --> 01:02:28.710
if you're going to deal with us, you need to

01:02:28.710 --> 01:02:33.050
act like one of us. You need to act like a Western

01:02:33.050 --> 01:02:38.429
power. You need to have kind of mutually respectful

01:02:38.429 --> 01:02:41.210
attitudes towards us, and we will respect you.

01:02:41.269 --> 01:02:46.730
But if you don't, then we're going to... You've

01:02:46.730 --> 01:02:50.070
brought all of this on yourselves by trying to

01:02:50.070 --> 01:02:55.110
act... in ways that are contrarian to Western

01:02:55.110 --> 01:02:56.750
powers. Which would be a wrenching change for

01:02:56.750 --> 01:02:59.750
China after all those thousands of years of being

01:02:59.750 --> 01:03:04.909
a central part of the world, of their world.

01:03:05.050 --> 01:03:10.349
Of their world. And it was. It became that. But

01:03:10.349 --> 01:03:13.230
this was, but I'll just stress, this was not

01:03:13.230 --> 01:03:15.969
a popular position that Adams is advancing here.

01:03:18.429 --> 01:03:20.590
I was tempted to bring some quotations in there,

01:03:20.650 --> 01:03:27.309
but they're kind of no more appealing now than

01:03:27.309 --> 01:03:31.909
they were then. From what you're describing,

01:03:32.070 --> 01:03:33.829
Adams is taking the position that the arrogant

01:03:33.829 --> 01:03:37.349
part is China, and it kind of has it coming to

01:03:37.349 --> 01:03:39.570
get someone beat up on it and show it its real

01:03:39.570 --> 01:03:42.960
place. Yes. the more popular attitude is more

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:44.420
like, well, the British are an arrogant power

01:03:44.420 --> 01:03:45.920
and they're trying to deal drugs to these poor

01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:47.760
Chinese people and beating them up so they can

01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:51.000
do it. Yeah. And, you know, okay. There's probably

01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.380
some truth to both positions, I suppose. But

01:03:53.380 --> 01:03:55.340
it's hard to take the side of the drug dealers

01:03:55.340 --> 01:03:59.280
when I say that. Adams is kind of like a product

01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:02.719
of the European diplomatic establishment when

01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:05.199
he's making these statements. He has certain

01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:08.719
expectations for how powers conduct relations

01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:11.719
between each other. you know, that's kind of

01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:16.480
of this kind of classical Napoleonic era period

01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:19.480
in diplomacy. You know, he's thinking about,

01:04:19.500 --> 01:04:21.780
say, like the Congress of Vienna would be kind

01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:25.900
of how these dynamics occurred here. Just going

01:04:25.900 --> 01:04:28.900
in and saying, no, you can't do this because

01:04:28.900 --> 01:04:32.400
I am China is not sufficient for him because.

01:04:34.190 --> 01:04:35.909
Powers that would act like that, it would be

01:04:35.909 --> 01:04:38.510
kind of like maybe Napoleon or somebody like

01:04:38.510 --> 01:04:42.070
that who would try to insist by fiat that what

01:04:42.070 --> 01:04:44.809
they said is the way to do it. And given the

01:04:44.809 --> 01:04:48.030
fact that Napoleon has just been defeated a few

01:04:48.030 --> 01:04:53.090
decades previously, this is not the exemplar

01:04:53.090 --> 01:04:56.309
in international relations. But it's still, it's

01:04:56.309 --> 01:05:01.610
not something that's going to do him much credit.

01:05:03.630 --> 01:05:06.869
American merchants, as I've said, did not have

01:05:06.869 --> 01:05:09.610
the same benefit from that because they just

01:05:09.610 --> 01:05:13.929
didn't have the same access to supplies. But

01:05:13.929 --> 01:05:17.630
Americans did take more than a passing interest

01:05:17.630 --> 01:05:20.869
in the first opium war, even if they weren't

01:05:20.869 --> 01:05:25.329
necessarily involved in the opium trade. So they

01:05:25.329 --> 01:05:30.130
were kind of opposed to... British supporting

01:05:30.130 --> 01:05:33.309
the opium trade, but they weren't opposed to

01:05:33.309 --> 01:05:36.949
greater access to China for themselves. This

01:05:36.949 --> 01:05:39.489
kind of position that they found themselves on,

01:05:39.550 --> 01:05:45.389
I would argue, is not possible without the humiliations

01:05:45.389 --> 01:05:48.130
that are inflicted upon China under the Treaty

01:05:48.130 --> 01:05:51.610
of Nanjing, which concluded the first opium war.

01:05:52.130 --> 01:05:54.789
Because once, you know, it's kind of like with

01:05:54.789 --> 01:05:58.869
Perry in Japan. When we open up Japan, All these

01:05:58.869 --> 01:06:00.650
other foreign countries start coming in and say,

01:06:00.730 --> 01:06:05.289
we want access to Japan. So in this case, it's

01:06:05.289 --> 01:06:07.909
not us. It's the British that's kind of doing

01:06:07.909 --> 01:06:10.869
this as far as Japan goes. There's a lot of parallels

01:06:10.869 --> 01:06:12.889
between the Chinese situation and the Japanese

01:06:12.889 --> 01:06:16.710
situation. Yes. The outcomes are amazingly different,

01:06:16.829 --> 01:06:19.530
though, in that China had its period of humiliation

01:06:19.530 --> 01:06:22.230
here, right? Yeah. Japan kind of looked at the

01:06:22.230 --> 01:06:23.769
West coming in and said, these people have bigger

01:06:23.769 --> 01:06:25.349
and better guns and ships and everything that

01:06:25.349 --> 01:06:27.909
we do, and we better be more like them. if we

01:06:27.909 --> 01:06:29.590
want to survive in this world. And Japan kind

01:06:29.590 --> 01:06:33.550
of wound up being the first non -European, non

01:06:33.550 --> 01:06:36.389
-American great power in a Western sense of what

01:06:36.389 --> 01:06:38.130
great power went, because they went down a different

01:06:38.130 --> 01:06:40.969
path. Yes. I mean, I think the Japanese story

01:06:40.969 --> 01:06:42.409
is a very interesting one. I'm digressing for

01:06:42.409 --> 01:06:45.210
a second, but just because their experience of,

01:06:45.309 --> 01:06:48.710
what are the right words, modernization, westernization,

01:06:48.929 --> 01:06:51.650
at least opening to the West, is so vastly different

01:06:51.650 --> 01:06:53.309
from so many other countries around the world.

01:06:53.610 --> 01:06:55.929
Well, China and what we're talking about here,

01:06:56.010 --> 01:06:58.309
but so many others were so badly disrupted by

01:06:58.309 --> 01:07:01.570
it. The Japanese kind of adopted what they liked

01:07:01.570 --> 01:07:04.050
and adapted it to their needs and kept on going.

01:07:04.230 --> 01:07:07.670
And if you look at attitudes towards China and

01:07:07.670 --> 01:07:12.309
towards Japan in the 19th century, there is still

01:07:12.309 --> 01:07:16.170
a healthy respect for Japan that you do not find

01:07:16.170 --> 01:07:20.429
with China that continues to grow. you know,

01:07:20.469 --> 01:07:24.889
with Japan's coming out party is really the Russo

01:07:24.889 --> 01:07:27.590
-Japanese War, but there's also the Sino -Japanese

01:07:27.590 --> 01:07:32.170
War as well, where they go in and slice off bits

01:07:32.170 --> 01:07:36.610
of China. Japan becomes kind of like considered

01:07:36.610 --> 01:07:39.989
a great power. Britain actually, you know, instead

01:07:39.989 --> 01:07:42.949
of colonizing Japan and insisting on treaty rights,

01:07:43.090 --> 01:07:47.340
they... create a sort of system of alliance a

01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:51.280
formal alliance with japan that exists we go

01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:57.000
ahead and actually negotiate with the the uh

01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:00.420
russians and the japanese roosevelt theodore

01:08:00.420 --> 01:08:03.239
roosevelt wins the nobel prize treaty of portsmouth

01:08:03.239 --> 01:08:05.440
for the treaty of portsmouth so i didn't mean

01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:08.000
to get us all down at all but i'm just saying

01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:09.219
that you know it isn't kind of interesting how

01:08:09.219 --> 01:08:10.980
different it was and what was to come for china

01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:14.239
you know their period of humiliation Well, you're

01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:16.180
right. I mean, you had to have the Treaty of

01:08:16.180 --> 01:08:18.880
Nanjing in order to open China up. So, yeah,

01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:20.439
if you wanted to have trade, greater trade with

01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:22.199
China, that was a necessary step for that to

01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:25.439
happen. But in the case of China, it also wound

01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:27.720
up having a lot of very negative repercussions

01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:30.260
that in the case of Japan, it didn't have. And

01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:33.340
I think it has something to do with the internal

01:08:33.340 --> 01:08:39.960
dynamics of both. Whereas the Japanese, even

01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:43.149
though they had been just as isolated. They had

01:08:43.149 --> 01:08:47.689
Nagasaki as a treaty port that kind of functions

01:08:47.689 --> 01:08:50.970
in the same way the Canton. They are not being

01:08:50.970 --> 01:08:58.090
walked all over by the West. They are, if anything,

01:08:58.329 --> 01:09:02.970
respect is increasing. When we get to something

01:09:02.970 --> 01:09:05.369
like the Boxer Rebellion, which we'll address

01:09:05.369 --> 01:09:08.430
in future episodes, we're working with Japan

01:09:08.430 --> 01:09:12.069
on this. Japan was one of the great powers that

01:09:12.069 --> 01:09:16.949
went into Peking and everything. And earned great

01:09:16.949 --> 01:09:18.630
respect from the Europeans and the Americans

01:09:18.630 --> 01:09:20.689
for their discipline, their professionalism.

01:09:20.750 --> 01:09:22.810
Japanese Army did in that thing. So, yeah, they

01:09:22.810 --> 01:09:25.189
were. But see, that's what's going to happen

01:09:25.189 --> 01:09:27.489
from where we are in talking here on the pod

01:09:27.489 --> 01:09:30.069
over the next 60, 70 years. Japan's going to

01:09:30.069 --> 01:09:32.350
wind up in that position. China is not. No, it's

01:09:32.350 --> 01:09:35.550
not. Yeah. And it starts. It kind of starts with

01:09:35.550 --> 01:09:39.409
the Treaty of Nanjing is when things are happening.

01:09:39.449 --> 01:09:44.079
But then there is also. What we see happening

01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:47.720
is, so we've got President Tyler sending a kind

01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:49.819
of blue -ribbon commission to draft a treaty

01:09:49.819 --> 01:09:53.420
with the Chinese, assuming correctly the Chinese

01:09:53.420 --> 01:09:55.880
would be unwilling to risk a further clash with

01:09:55.880 --> 01:09:57.520
the Western nation. Now, we did not have the

01:09:57.520 --> 01:09:59.819
capability to do what the British did, but did

01:09:59.819 --> 01:10:03.689
China know this? No. They had, you know, it's

01:10:03.689 --> 01:10:07.010
like there's kind of a lot of similarity to them.

01:10:07.029 --> 01:10:08.789
We don't want to have them show up with all these

01:10:08.789 --> 01:10:11.850
boats and Marines and troops and everything.

01:10:12.029 --> 01:10:14.090
We wouldn't have done anything. I can't imagine

01:10:14.090 --> 01:10:17.329
us doing anything like that in any event. You

01:10:17.329 --> 01:10:19.590
know, I mean, like the most we're going to get

01:10:19.590 --> 01:10:21.569
is like Perry and Perry's like, hi, we're here

01:10:21.569 --> 01:10:24.449
to deliver this note here. And that is that.

01:10:24.510 --> 01:10:27.630
At that time. Later in the 19th century, we did

01:10:27.630 --> 01:10:29.609
start to do things like that in East Asia. We

01:10:29.609 --> 01:10:33.449
did some fighting in Korea. Yeah. The U .S. Navy

01:10:33.449 --> 01:10:36.609
presence out there was called the East India

01:10:36.609 --> 01:10:39.350
Squadron before the American Civil War and the

01:10:39.350 --> 01:10:41.710
Asiatic Squadron after the American Civil War.

01:10:41.909 --> 01:10:44.670
And it's been forgotten now, but in 1871, two

01:10:44.670 --> 01:10:46.970
of its ships exchanged fire with forts in the

01:10:46.970 --> 01:10:49.109
Han River estuary on the west coast of Korea.

01:10:49.569 --> 01:10:51.489
So nine days later, we attacked and captured

01:10:51.489 --> 01:10:54.050
the forts, and a lot of Korean deaths were involved.

01:10:55.180 --> 01:10:58.420
That was called the Battle of Gonghua, G -A -N

01:10:58.420 --> 01:11:00.640
-G -H -W -A, if anyone wants to look it up and

01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:05.500
learn more about it, in June 1871. But that was

01:11:05.500 --> 01:11:07.180
off in the future from the standpoint of where

01:11:07.180 --> 01:11:09.659
we are in your narrative, Marshall, and that

01:11:09.659 --> 01:11:11.479
you're laying out for us here. I just want to

01:11:11.479 --> 01:11:13.079
make sure the listeners realize that we were

01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:15.279
involved in some fighting in East Asia in the

01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:18.079
19th century. Yes, that was a different world,

01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:21.289
though. I'm talking about in the pre -Civil War

01:11:21.289 --> 01:11:24.069
period, we're not going to be projecting power

01:11:24.069 --> 01:11:27.909
around the world here. We might send some ships

01:11:27.909 --> 01:11:31.489
to take on the Barbary pirates, but that's going

01:11:31.489 --> 01:11:34.250
to be it as far as what our capabilities allow

01:11:34.250 --> 01:11:38.590
us to do. Just to note, though, before the Civil

01:11:38.590 --> 01:11:40.710
War, we did have squadrons stationed around the

01:11:40.710 --> 01:11:46.590
world. They weren't large, but we did. I mentioned

01:11:46.590 --> 01:11:49.840
the East India Squadron. There was a squadron

01:11:49.840 --> 01:11:51.779
in the Mediterranean. We did have a presence.

01:11:52.100 --> 01:11:54.279
To guard trade. To guard trade and things. But

01:11:54.279 --> 01:11:56.680
you're not talking a large number of ships. No,

01:11:56.680 --> 01:11:58.819
I'm not talking something that would be capable

01:11:58.819 --> 01:12:03.159
of, like, first opium war. So we were there,

01:12:03.300 --> 01:12:04.899
but you're right. We're not going to take on

01:12:04.899 --> 01:12:28.960
China with that force. No. So kind of what we're

01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:32.479
insisting upon, and this is the Treaty of Wang

01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:36.300
Xia, and Caleb Cushing, who is one of the leading

01:12:36.300 --> 01:12:39.260
diplomatic statesmen, was involved in the commission,

01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:43.859
as was a relative of Daniel Webster. So fairly

01:12:43.859 --> 01:12:46.720
influential group that sent over to negotiate

01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:50.479
this treaty. And it contains many of the elements

01:12:50.479 --> 01:12:53.899
of the Treaty of Nanjing. There's free and equal

01:12:53.899 --> 01:12:56.359
relations between U .S. and Chinese counterparts,

01:12:56.500 --> 01:12:58.939
so no more of this diplomatic exceptionalism.

01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:02.079
We're not looking to gain something like Hong

01:13:02.079 --> 01:13:06.439
Kong, but I would argue that what we got has

01:13:06.439 --> 01:13:10.220
larger implications for both China and America

01:13:10.220 --> 01:13:14.640
than... it would be if we gained an outpost like

01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:19.000
Hong Kong. So what we got was we were able to

01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:22.640
avoid being tried in Chinese courts, which is

01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:26.439
kind of nice. Extraterritoriality is what that's

01:13:26.439 --> 01:13:30.560
called. So it's no longer a crime to learn Chinese,

01:13:30.659 --> 01:13:33.079
which it had been. So people are going to be

01:13:33.079 --> 01:13:37.460
able to communicate directly with Chinese people.

01:13:38.029 --> 01:13:41.289
But Americans got the right to build houses,

01:13:41.449 --> 01:13:46.210
churches, hospitals, and cemeteries in China,

01:13:46.369 --> 01:13:49.369
their own. And particularly houses and churches

01:13:49.369 --> 01:13:51.810
are what's going to have the big impact. Hospitals,

01:13:51.829 --> 01:13:55.399
too. because it's going to give the Chinese access

01:13:55.399 --> 01:13:58.399
to Western medical care. But churches, we're

01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:01.939
not going to be seeing Confucian temples is not

01:14:01.939 --> 01:14:03.460
what the Americans are going to be building.

01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:04.920
They're going to be building Christian churches.

01:14:05.979 --> 01:14:09.340
And Canton is no longer going to be the only

01:14:09.340 --> 01:14:12.300
playground for American missionaries to go to

01:14:12.300 --> 01:14:16.060
because there's greater access to the areas around

01:14:16.060 --> 01:14:18.479
these various treaty ports, which we're gaining

01:14:18.479 --> 01:14:20.680
access to, the same treaty ports that the British

01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:23.279
have opened up. And we're still doing, and even

01:14:23.279 --> 01:14:25.060
some people are still doing the opium trade.

01:14:25.140 --> 01:14:29.300
So one person who was a big proponent of the

01:14:29.300 --> 01:14:34.899
opium trade was Warren Delano Jr. Warren Delano

01:14:34.899 --> 01:14:40.159
Jr. got crushed economically in 1857. He took

01:14:40.159 --> 01:14:45.100
his daughter Sarah off to Hong Kong. He plied

01:14:45.100 --> 01:14:47.460
the opium trade for about three years and rebuilt

01:14:47.460 --> 01:14:51.050
his fortune. Sarah was the mother of... FDR.

01:14:51.409 --> 01:14:54.630
And FDR, if you've ever been to his house, there's

01:14:54.630 --> 01:14:56.829
all sorts of elements of the China trade there.

01:14:57.069 --> 01:15:00.350
And FDR mistakenly believed himself to be an

01:15:00.350 --> 01:15:02.409
expert on China. This is a topic for another

01:15:02.409 --> 01:15:05.710
show. But that's where the origins come from.

01:15:05.829 --> 01:15:09.250
But Warren Delano actually wrote a defense of

01:15:09.250 --> 01:15:12.350
the opium trade, saying that it was beneficial,

01:15:12.770 --> 01:15:16.109
needful, and useful, almost like the way some

01:15:16.109 --> 01:15:18.710
people are describing slavery these days. The

01:15:18.710 --> 01:15:22.930
fact that we're going to see the growth of a

01:15:22.930 --> 01:15:26.170
missionary culture, and that's what this actually

01:15:26.170 --> 01:15:29.109
leads us to, and we're going to also be able

01:15:29.109 --> 01:15:32.310
to have a more complete knowledge of China. At

01:15:32.310 --> 01:15:34.850
this point, familiarity is breeding contempt

01:15:34.850 --> 01:15:38.949
because no more do we have... this sort of idealized

01:15:38.949 --> 01:15:42.609
nation of Cathay, we have understanding of the

01:15:42.609 --> 01:15:45.729
lot of the Chinese peasant and just how miserable

01:15:45.729 --> 01:15:49.750
life can be for people over in China. So instead

01:15:49.750 --> 01:15:52.409
of being this rather fantastic world with a kind

01:15:52.409 --> 01:15:55.390
of higher -level culture, we're actually seeing

01:15:55.390 --> 01:15:58.670
people come to an appreciation that not everything

01:15:58.670 --> 01:16:03.750
is looking like... depictions of court life on

01:16:03.750 --> 01:16:06.789
Chinese screens or Chinese artwork there. It's

01:16:06.789 --> 01:16:10.149
something harsher and more difficult. And this

01:16:10.149 --> 01:16:12.890
is going to be driving people to go out and try

01:16:12.890 --> 01:16:16.350
to help people to stop screwing up their lives

01:16:16.350 --> 01:16:19.569
with this traditional stuff that's not been doing

01:16:19.569 --> 01:16:22.270
things that are beneficial to them. It's actually

01:16:22.270 --> 01:16:24.529
going to be, people are going to be trying to

01:16:24.529 --> 01:16:27.170
save China. And one of the elements of saving

01:16:27.170 --> 01:16:30.699
China is Christianity. Another thing that's going

01:16:30.699 --> 01:16:34.880
to help with this, and this is basically what

01:16:34.880 --> 01:16:37.539
is indicative of a greater importance of the

01:16:37.539 --> 01:16:39.399
China trade, is the growth of the clipper ships.

01:16:39.659 --> 01:16:41.939
And the clipper ships are developed around the

01:16:41.939 --> 01:16:46.409
1850s. And for a short 10 -year period, roughly

01:16:46.409 --> 01:16:50.909
1850 to 1860, these are the biggest, most beautiful

01:16:50.909 --> 01:16:54.109
ships that have ever been built, lots of mass,

01:16:54.390 --> 01:16:57.409
and capable of making the same journey that the

01:16:57.409 --> 01:17:00.090
Empress of China took in half the time, ensuring

01:17:00.090 --> 01:17:03.949
products such as tea do not suffer from spoilage,

01:17:03.970 --> 01:17:06.630
and there's greater contact and greater ability

01:17:06.630 --> 01:17:09.789
to trade with China here. And this kind of takes

01:17:09.789 --> 01:17:15.779
us up to where we are with... US and China up

01:17:15.779 --> 01:17:19.159
to the beginnings of the Civil War in 1860. So

01:17:19.159 --> 01:17:23.720
China is getting some benefit, but it's also

01:17:23.720 --> 01:17:28.039
getting kind of destabilizing influence in the

01:17:28.039 --> 01:17:31.000
form of both merchant traders who are bringing

01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:34.039
in opium, again, on the US side, not to the same

01:17:34.039 --> 01:17:36.100
degree as British, but still it's happening.

01:17:36.199 --> 01:17:40.640
And we've seen the imperial government kind of

01:17:40.640 --> 01:17:43.739
lose a lot of credit in the sense that it has

01:17:43.739 --> 01:17:48.520
been humiliated by the first opium war. And this

01:17:48.520 --> 01:17:51.199
is not just something that's limited to abroad.

01:17:51.399 --> 01:17:53.819
This is also something people internally know.

01:17:54.180 --> 01:17:59.699
And we've also got Jesus, Jesus coming to China.

01:18:00.180 --> 01:18:02.460
And on our next show, we're going to see just

01:18:02.460 --> 01:18:06.199
how close people felt to Jesus, and in particular,

01:18:06.340 --> 01:18:10.859
one failure in his civil service. his examinations,

01:18:10.859 --> 01:18:13.359
how he felt about Jesus, and what that did to

01:18:13.359 --> 01:18:16.460
China, too. Well, and we also have the discovery

01:18:16.460 --> 01:18:19.699
of gold in California to look forward to, which

01:18:19.699 --> 01:18:23.659
changed some things. Yes, it did. Now, did the

01:18:23.659 --> 01:18:26.819
British continue the opium trade? Oh, yes. I

01:18:26.819 --> 01:18:29.819
presume so. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Unmolested. I

01:18:29.819 --> 01:18:32.180
mean, there's a second opium war that comes across,

01:18:32.399 --> 01:18:35.359
but again, not much the Chinese can do to counter

01:18:35.359 --> 01:18:38.069
that. Not with that projection of power. No.

01:18:38.130 --> 01:18:42.850
And that was 1856 to 1860, I think it was, the

01:18:42.850 --> 01:18:45.569
second opium war? Right. There's some other stuff

01:18:45.569 --> 01:18:48.369
going on, which we'll get into in the next time.

01:18:50.649 --> 01:18:53.229
That's it for this episode of the United States

01:18:53.229 --> 01:18:56.550
of Amnesia. Thank you for listening. We hope

01:18:56.550 --> 01:18:58.609
you learned something, and we hope you discovered

01:18:58.609 --> 01:19:00.890
new ways of looking at things you had already

01:19:00.890 --> 01:19:04.050
heard or thought about, or perhaps hadn't heard

01:19:04.050 --> 01:19:08.109
about. If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we

01:19:08.109 --> 01:19:11.590
made you mad, that's okay too. Either way, email

01:19:11.590 --> 01:19:16.029
us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know

01:19:16.029 --> 01:19:19.189
what you think. Also, let us know about anything

01:19:19.189 --> 01:19:21.590
you think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to

01:19:21.590 --> 01:19:25.210
know about that too. And of course, please like

01:19:25.210 --> 01:19:27.350
and subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

01:19:27.350 --> 01:19:30.939
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

01:19:30.939 --> 01:19:37.840
.usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself,

01:19:38.159 --> 01:20:08.960
till next time. was it called the middle kingdom

01:20:08.960 --> 01:20:14.439
center of the universe okay i've not heard that

01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:15.899
term before that's how they thought of themselves

01:20:15.899 --> 01:20:20.140
i believe you yeah um it's a common trait of

01:20:20.140 --> 01:20:22.939
like what what's been called universal empires

01:20:22.939 --> 01:20:25.720
and what that kind of means is obviously they're

01:20:25.720 --> 01:20:28.020
not universal but in in their in the context

01:20:28.020 --> 01:20:30.720
of their world right they're the big dominant

01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:34.779
empire in their In their world... They have a

01:20:34.779 --> 01:20:37.340
very long history. And there's limited travel

01:20:37.340 --> 01:20:40.859
anywhere else. So pretty much in East Asia, China

01:20:40.859 --> 01:20:43.439
was the universal empire, even though there were

01:20:43.439 --> 01:20:46.380
other countries and tributaries and things around

01:20:46.380 --> 01:20:49.479
it, right? There's been various ones in the Middle

01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:53.199
East over the years, right? Or in India, there's

01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:55.979
been... The Roman Empire was the universal empire

01:20:55.979 --> 01:20:58.420
of its time. It literally means it controls everything,

01:20:58.720 --> 01:21:02.270
right? But as far as anybody's concerned, that's

01:21:02.270 --> 01:21:04.750
the empire. But that's the empire, right? So,

01:21:04.750 --> 01:21:06.449
you know, if you're in East Asia, they're the

01:21:06.449 --> 01:21:08.390
Middle Kingdom. Yeah. And there wasn't much travel

01:21:08.390 --> 01:21:08.890
anywhere else.