205: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - The Soong Dynasty

WEBVTT

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What we're going to look at now is what has been

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happening with regard to Chinese internal affairs

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and how this is being impacted by some of the

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missionary culture that we looked at in our previous

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episode Welcome to the United States of Amnesia

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We are the podcast that reminds us of what we

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have forgotten It is often said that history

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repeats itself Mark Twain allegedly said that

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history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.

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But over time, many topics have become clouded

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by biases and oversimplifications, or have become

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mythologized and now are misunderstood. Misunderstanding

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means learning the wrong lessons from history,

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perhaps, or even learning nothing at all. And

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that can leave us poorly prepared for history's

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next rhyme. In this episode, we will discuss

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America's view of China from the 1920s through

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the early 1940s and the strong influence Americans

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raised by missionaries in China, most notably

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Henry Luce and Pearl Buck, had on that view.

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Chiang Kai -shek emerges as the leader of the

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Republic of China and Americans contribute money

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to Chiang and his family in the belief that they

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will use it to modernize China. Several factors

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impede that modernization from being realized,

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specifically Chiang Kai -Shek's family's corruption,

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Chiang's inability to gain control of the entire

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country from warlords and Mao Zedong's communists,

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and simultaneous war with both the communists

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and Japan. These historical struggles inside

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China make it unlikely that China will emerge

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from World War II as one of Franklin Roosevelt's

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four policemen of the post -war world. The republic

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was established by 1912 and essentially what

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existed within China and people just did not

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have a sufficient appreciation for this. I remember

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reading books about Sun Yat -sen who was the

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quote -unquote president of the first republic

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and really he was President in name only, there

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was no real republic that exercised central control

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over the country as a whole. You had attempts

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to reestablish the monarchy. You had various

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warlords breaking out all over the place, attempting

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to reassert control. There was no central authority.

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Central authority began to be asserted in the

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period of the 20s. and this was with Chiang Kai

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-shek. And he emerged as the leader of China,

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the leader in terms of who people associated

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as being the leader of China, even though he

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never would be able to truly consolidate total

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control over the country. After many attempts

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to establish a republic, he was dubbed the heir

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presumptive of Sun Yat -sen. It certainly didn't

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hurt his chances that he was related to the father

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of the Chinese Republic. He was in fact his brother

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-in -law. He married Mei -Ling Song, sister of

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Sun Yat -sen's wife. And despite making great

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gains in the larger cities of China, Chang would

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never be able to establish much control over

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the countryside and the Chinese peasantry. Chang

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represented this sort of modern movement to kind

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of bring China in the 20th century, and this

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was not necessarily something that, in some respects,

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considering all that this involved, something

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that the Chinese peasant was necessarily interested

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in doing here. It certainly made things great.

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for people living in places like Shanghai or

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Beijing. So initially Chang was collaborating

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with the Chinese Communist Party to eliminate

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some of these warlords that had taken control

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throughout the country. If Chang had been subjected

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to the same level of scrutiny as say certain

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writers and performers were during the McCarthy

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era, a period ushered in by his US supporters,

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it is likely that he would have been regarded

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with some suspicion. In his early days, both

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Chang and even Sun Yat -sen saw opportunity in

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collaboration with the Soviet Union. So he would

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have been blacklisted. He would have been blacklisted.

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By his own supporters in the United States in

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the 1950s. I mean, Chang had, you know, if you

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think about this, all of the people who would

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get into trouble for things like, say like James

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Cagney, who got into trouble for sending money

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to provide an ambulance to the Spanish Civil

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War. a humanitarian gesture, and he had to go

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make Yankee Doodle Dandy to prove that he wasn't

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a commie for this, that here's Chiang Kai -shek.

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He's going to the Soviet Union. He's enrolling

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in the WAPOA military academy. His political

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chief of staff is Zhou Enlai. Zhou Enlai was

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an important figure in the Chinese Communist

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Party and eventually became the first premier

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of the People's Republic of China. and also the

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foreign minister yeah foreign minister he's a

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fellow traveler and that did not stop him from

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murdering countless communists but i think it's

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funny just given the level of collaboration that

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chang did have in these early days up until the

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kind of seizure of control in in in shanghai

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he had a lot of association all of these guys

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knew each other you know, I don't think that

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Mao would be someone that he knew at this particular

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stage, but he certainly did know Zhou Enlai,

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and he's probably about as senior as you're going

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to get. The flirtation between China and the

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Soviet Union went on for many, many decades.

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Yes, but in this case, it's the people that are

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anti -communist that are collaborating, and that's

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what's kind of funny. Stalin and This is something

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I don't know whether people appreciate it or

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not just because of the secrecy. Stalin kind

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of didn't really think that China was going to

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be a place where world revolution was going to

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happen. The whole Marxist doctrine that you have

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to have an industrial proletariat. to serve as

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the vanguard for revolution. That really did

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not exist. There was in the large cities, there

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were industrial workers, but this is tiny by

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comparison with the population as a whole. Even

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though the same could be said in some respects

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of Russia, Russia was certainly more industrialized

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than China was at this point. particularly if

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you look at percentage of the population as a

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whole, they saw Chang and his party, the KMT,

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the Kuomintang, as being their way, the way for

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the Kremlin to kind of have some influence within

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China. as part of their whole message of anti

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-imperialism, because all the other countries,

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as Mike mentioned last episode when we were talking

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about the Boxers, they all had concessions, they

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had all taken on these unequal treaties, so this

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is kind of how communism comes to enter China,

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and it enters China through, not through kind

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of committed communists as much though certainly

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they're part of it, but it's also with the sort

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of people that are part of this whole missionary

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culture, westward -leaning, reform -minded, the

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kinds of people that Americans are eager to support

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and see take charge. These are the sorts of people

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that are also doing business with the communists

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and nobody seems to care at this point. Chiang

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Kai -shek was perfectly happy to collaborate

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until 1927, and this is when he massacred thousands

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of communists, and if you want to read a good

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fictional account, that's detailed in Andre Malraux's

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book, Man's Fate. And this is how the civil war

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with the communists actually occurred. He decided

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that he was going to consolidate power against

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them. This was when he made his move, and This

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struggle with the communist is gonna be the focus

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of the government until it ceased to exist on

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the mainland. So this is just a narrow power

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grab by him. It wasn't ideological in nature,

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really. Is that what you're saying? I would argue

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that he's very flexible when it comes to ideology

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at this point. I mean, I think that he is getting

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in good with kind of... You know, people like

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his, he has not married his first wife yet, who

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is very much part of the money delete of nationalist

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China. But he is certainly, he's certainly in

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part of that sphere because he is associated

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with Sun Yat -sen. They are seen as a means of

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getting, of helping to fight this problem with

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the warlords. And so in 1927, he makes his move

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in Shanghai. and all hell breaks loose and continues

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to break loose, and this becomes his focus. Yes,

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there may be that he has a different vision for

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China, but it's certainly more palatable to the

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West than, say, what the communists are proposing.

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because the sorts of people that are going to

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be involved in looking at China, they're not

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necessarily going to be supporting Workers of

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the World Unite. And Chiang is also considered

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far more reliable than the Chinese Communist

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Party by now. Trotsky was very critical by the

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way of this approach that Stalin was taking and

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saw this whole massacre of Chinese communists

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in Shanghai, which really decimated the party.

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It really did. I mean there was still a party

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to exist, but kind of the best and the brightest

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were kind of like decimated. during this action

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by Chiang Kai -shek, and very brutally so. I

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mean, they were like burned to death in some

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cases, at least according to what you see in

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Mao Rou there. For those who don't know, Leon

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Trotsky or Lev Trotsky was a senior member of

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the Communist Party in the Soviet Union until

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he was exiled for opposing Stalin. Chiang was

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flexible enough to convert to Christianity. It's

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not clear that this is necessarily a Out of conviction.

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Not really out of conviction, yes. It's more

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a case of it works for him and it certainly does

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work in terms of bringing him to the forefront

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of people in America. I have a book over that

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I consulted, not so much factual but more for

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tone. It purports to have Chang and his wife

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Mei Ling to basically be They're the agents of

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conversion of China to Christianity. And of course,

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if China converts to Christianity, the gospel

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is being preached in all nations of the world,

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including places like China where it had never

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been preached before, and this is gonna promote

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the second coming of Christ. So how purposeful

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is this on his part? I mean, we've established

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his flexibility in terms of religious conviction

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and political beliefs, right? Yes. Fine. How

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much of this is purposeful in terms of him trying

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to cozy up with the United States for backing?

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Is that a purposeful thing here where look I'm

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Christian now and anti -communist and you'll

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like me better or or not it when you say the

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United States we have to make a distinction because

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at this point I think that it's not so much the

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government as it is people substance within the

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United States that it is allowing him to cozy

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up to. People like Lewis, people like Jock Whitney.

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Jock Whitney, or John Hay Whitney, was among

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other things the publisher of the New York Herald

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Tribune. So these people will find Christianity

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and anti -communism more appealing, and they

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will... And also the vision that they have for

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modernity. for modernity. I mean, one of the

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things that I would say was kind of a bridge

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too far, not unlike a bridge too far in Iran,

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for example, female equality. This looks good.

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You've gone from like women going through the

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process of having their feet bound to women becoming

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people of agency. And this is... a cause that

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was championed by Chang's wife Mei Ling. She

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was very much a proponent of this. Also building

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railroads also and and the sort of program that

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he's advancing is something that From the perspective

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of an industrialist, someone's gotta sell them

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the railroads, someone's gotta sell them telegraphs,

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there's money to be made and it goes back to

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what are we gonna sell China to make money? Railroads

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instead of sea cucumbers. So he's appealing.

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He's appealing to private interest. Yes, he is

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appealing to private interest. But with a goal

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of modernizing China. The goal is the vision

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is to modernize China. The goal is to like improve

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things like sanitation and living conditions.

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But he never is able to follow through on a lot

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of these projects because he doesn't control

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the whole country. There would be a lot of aid

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that would be coming in. But as we'll see, a

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lot of this aid has a tendency to just vanish.

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And this is aid from American private interests.

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Money that they would raise. And that's or just

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give to the Chinese give to the Chinese. Okay.

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I mean like loose had a whole Coterie of donors

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that he could call upon Some of which I've mentioned

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David O. Selznick producer gone with the wind

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with someone who was who was big on supporting

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China What were these donations? intended for

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Achieving the vision that they were Trying to

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promote. I mean it was general welfare. Okay,

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you know sanitation hospital schools Education,

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I mean did it it's trying to get it is did it

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go to foundations that were supposed to oversee

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this Did it go to the Chinese the nationalist

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government who who who received this money in

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China? Well to be honest, it's the four families

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that I mentioned before is who who received that

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money Chang's relative, T .V. Kung, who was the

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J .P. Morgan of China, he didn't get that way

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by playing Tiddlywinks. So you would give the

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money to these four families in China and hope

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they would make the most of it, do the best with

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it that you intended. And and and really there's

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no oversight that's going along with this You

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know money goes into china and then who knows

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what happens to the money. Yes. I mean they can

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you know They had a whole dog and pony show That

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when people would come to china They would trot

00:16:15.169 --> 00:16:18.370
trot things out and it was like when loose loose

00:16:18.370 --> 00:16:21.870
made several visits to china He always got this

00:16:21.870 --> 00:16:24.409
dog and pony show like we are making extreme

00:16:24.409 --> 00:16:28.879
progress in our vision for the future no and

00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.779
people would look at this and they would say

00:16:30.779 --> 00:16:33.700
this is marvelous this is what i want to see

00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:38.620
happen but if you're not there 24 7 and you're

00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.740
just watching this this you know watching these

00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:44.679
presentations and you go back to your penthouse

00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:49.759
in new york city or wherever then how do you

00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.840
know that this money's being spent well well

00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:54.940
that that's The next thing I wanna ask you then,

00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.539
from your research then, I mean, did they achieve

00:16:57.539 --> 00:16:58.899
anything? Did they have anything to show for

00:16:58.899 --> 00:17:02.320
it? Were there more railroads and telegraph lines

00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.140
and hospitals and orphanages and schools and

00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:06.839
better port? I mean, did anything come of this

00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.700
or? There were some limited improvements in the

00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:12.920
urban environment. A little here, a little there,

00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:19.339
but it's not the sweeping. Right, yeah. Epic,

00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.420
epic. You didn't get a lot for the money that

00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:23.440
you were giving them. Yes. You didn't see a lot

00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.359
of results for that. You just got told things

00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:30.000
were great, and you... Getting back to your point,

00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.240
Mike, I mean, the fact that he converted to Christianity

00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.680
and took an anti -communist stance would seem

00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:41.119
to have helped keep these pumps flowing. Absolutely.

00:17:41.539 --> 00:17:43.339
That's what it sounds like. That's what it sounds

00:17:43.339 --> 00:17:45.079
like. So the pumps are flowing based on that.

00:17:45.150 --> 00:17:46.730
but I'm kind of then wondering, okay, the pumps

00:17:46.730 --> 00:17:48.490
are flowing into China and are we seeing anything

00:17:48.490 --> 00:17:50.490
come out of it? And the answer sounds like, well,

00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:54.529
a little, but maybe not all that much. But if

00:17:54.529 --> 00:17:56.470
I go and put the dog and pony show on for you,

00:17:56.529 --> 00:17:57.950
let's go back to your Manhattan department and

00:17:57.950 --> 00:17:59.609
go, oh good, I've made things better in China.

00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:02.769
I'll send them another check next year. We are

00:18:02.769 --> 00:18:08.809
making phenomenal progress. That was the sense

00:18:08.809 --> 00:18:12.650
that when Luce was over there, he would see this

00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:16.460
and you would get to meet Chang and his wife

00:18:16.460 --> 00:18:19.460
was very appealing she was she was she was quite

00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:21.599
the charmer. Madame Chang, she began to know

00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.640
that. Madame Chang, yes. The rest of her life

00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.220
she was quite a figure. Yes, she was she was

00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:32.220
always always always always on the list of ten

00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:35.359
most admired women. There was no sense of no

00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:37.480
understanding of the level of corruption that

00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.519
was endemic to there was China there was there

00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.079
was it We'll get to that. Okay, so get to that

00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:44.759
these people giving the money knew there was

00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:49.799
corruption or not It depends on the person. Okay,

00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:52.759
and I'm gonna I'm gonna focus on loose with this.

00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.119
I will let you carry on I will I will I will

00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.180
carry on with this Already, Americans, even though

00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:01.880
you can't come here and immigrate, there's a

00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.940
certain emotional commitment to China that America

00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:07.160
has. Chinese cannot come here. Chinese cannot

00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:08.880
come to the United States. Chinese cannot immigrate.

00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:13.920
We still have the Exclusion Act that prohibits

00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.380
Chinese immigration to the United States. That

00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:20.359
was done in 1880s. We are now, say, 30s, 40s

00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:24.759
now. That is still... In effect. In effect. And

00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:29.640
when the Japanese attack, there's no similar

00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.940
debate as to who are the good guys and who should

00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:36.799
be supported like we have in Europe in World

00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.059
War II. And you're talking about when the Japanese

00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:42.519
attacked China? China, yes. In 1937. Well, in

00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:45.539
1931, there was the Mukden incident in Manchuria.

00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:49.519
But let's just say throughout the 30s, the good

00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.759
guys are the Chinese. They are not the Japanese

00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:56.000
at all. Even though there was all this admiration

00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.920
for the Japanese during the Boxer Rebellion,

00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:04.480
this has been long overdrawn at the admiration

00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:09.069
bank here. Since that they are most definitely

00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:12.509
the bad guys. There is no Japanese pressure group

00:20:12.509 --> 00:20:16.930
in the in the United States To kind of say oh,

00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:18.750
we just want to go over there and arrange flowers.

00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:21.150
We need our living space This is what's fair

00:20:21.150 --> 00:20:23.630
for us this the arguments that are being put

00:20:23.630 --> 00:20:27.930
forth by the Germans That promote this kind of

00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:31.009
appeasement attitude that we talked about in

00:20:31.009 --> 00:20:34.410
the previous series There's nothing similar or

00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:38.309
comparable that's going on to that the Chinese

00:20:38.309 --> 00:20:41.529
need to argue against. It does not exist. The

00:20:41.529 --> 00:20:45.690
Chinese and the Japanese switch places in the

00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:50.230
constellation here, don't they? In Japan, we

00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:51.630
don't need to get into a big deal about Japan,

00:20:51.750 --> 00:20:56.049
but in Japan, the Japanese military of 1900 is

00:20:56.049 --> 00:20:58.430
not the same one. that it was transforming into

00:20:58.430 --> 00:21:01.410
in the 20s and became in the 30s and 40s. It

00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:04.450
became more of a death cult. It became more cruel

00:21:04.450 --> 00:21:06.789
and vicious toward, you know, prisoners of war,

00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:09.289
all these kinds of things. It took the samurai

00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:11.529
Bushido code and warped it into something that

00:21:11.529 --> 00:21:13.809
was prone to all these atrocities, which it really

00:21:13.809 --> 00:21:16.130
had not been before, that kind of thing. Japan

00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:18.210
went that direction and became much less appealing.

00:21:18.460 --> 00:21:20.859
to the Western world. But then you look at Chiang

00:21:20.859 --> 00:21:22.599
Kai -shek and China, well, they've overthrown

00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:25.660
that terrible, you know, corrupt, imperial government.

00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:27.539
And they're building the future. That supported

00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:29.700
the Boxers. That's gone. So now we have a whole

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:31.539
new, you know, it's a do -over for China. They

00:21:31.539 --> 00:21:34.119
have a new regime. And they are embracing, they're

00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.279
trying to become Little America here. And now

00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:41.359
Japan is attacking them. To subvert this. Subvert

00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.759
this, subjugate them. And you can see why this...

00:21:43.549 --> 00:21:46.809
This thinking would change, can't you? Yes, but

00:21:46.809 --> 00:21:53.950
the biggest influence on this change was none

00:21:53.950 --> 00:21:56.630
other than another product of the missionary

00:21:56.630 --> 00:21:59.700
environment, and this is Pearl Buck. No one,

00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:02.500
no one altered the perception of the Chinese

00:22:02.500 --> 00:22:06.000
in America than she did. She was part of the

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.539
whole missionary school. She was a product like

00:22:08.539 --> 00:22:10.819
loose her parents were missionaries. She didn't

00:22:10.819 --> 00:22:14.339
take as charitable view about missionaries. She

00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:18.119
didn't dismiss them, but she really romanticize

00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:21.240
the life of the Chinese peasant. These people

00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:26.470
who say in, in. earlier times were kind of like

00:22:26.470 --> 00:22:30.529
considered to be somehow racially and and morally

00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:35.329
inferior they take on a kind of different stereotypical

00:22:35.329 --> 00:22:38.049
view a much more positive stereotypical view

00:22:38.049 --> 00:22:41.730
unlike say opium smoking heathen chinese in the

00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:44.849
19th century these are stoical they're admirable

00:22:44.849 --> 00:22:48.869
a lot of the things that she has say in her book

00:22:48.869 --> 00:22:51.549
the good earth which is kind of her magnum opus

00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:54.269
That was published in 31. We read the good earth

00:22:54.269 --> 00:22:59.190
in school. Yes So did we and the the the sorts

00:22:59.190 --> 00:23:02.470
of hardships that agricultural workers are going

00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:05.730
through with the good earth Are not unlike what's

00:23:05.730 --> 00:23:08.089
happening in the united states in the 1930s with

00:23:08.089 --> 00:23:11.789
say things like the dust bowl So the struggle

00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:16.309
of the chinese farmer Which is portrayed in in

00:23:16.309 --> 00:23:20.089
that book and she also kinds of kind of allows

00:23:20.089 --> 00:23:23.599
kind of the almost like British novels. She said

00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.759
she was very influenced by Dickens when she was

00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.059
putting her books together. She wasn't so much

00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:32.859
influenced by Chinese literature, but she was

00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:36.019
kind of taking British literature and kind of

00:23:36.019 --> 00:23:38.440
changing it, using it to kind of tell the story

00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:41.480
of Chinese peasants, something that people could

00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:46.019
actually relate to. So she wins the Pulitzer

00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:49.599
Prize in 32 for The Good Earth. And then she

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.059
is the first American woman to win a Nobel Prize

00:23:53.059 --> 00:23:58.579
in 1938. There is a film made of the good earth

00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:03.200
which uh against her wishes included Americans

00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.039
in yellow face. White actors. White actors basically.

00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:11.640
paul muny and louise rainer uh pretending to

00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.420
be chinese and it's it's kind of funny there

00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:17.480
is there is a chinese actress anna may wong and

00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:19.900
she really wanted the female lead in this and

00:24:19.900 --> 00:24:23.059
they basically said she could not she could not

00:24:23.059 --> 00:24:26.680
play the female lead uh in the good earth because

00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.880
as a chinese she couldn't be engaged in any sort

00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.920
of like romantic engagement with paul muny who

00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.779
is paying her husband who is made up to look

00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:40.359
like Chinese. So such are the, such are the racial

00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.279
politics. They did say she could be the concubine

00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.700
and she said, I'm not going to be, play the role

00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:48.859
of the least appealing person in the whole book.

00:24:49.259 --> 00:24:52.559
And she just stormed off. But people, people

00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.240
who look at Asians in the movies say this is

00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:58.339
a, this is, she probably could have won an Oscar

00:24:58.339 --> 00:25:02.039
just as Louise Rainier, an Austrian woman who

00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.180
got made up to look Chinese. won an Oscar for

00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:08.319
playing for playing the uh matriarch of the family

00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:12.500
in the good earth. It said though as well we

00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:15.079
talked about the Chinese Exclusion Act it actually

00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:22.920
gets repealed in 1843 or 1943 in 1943 and a lot

00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.900
of people credit her portrayal of humanizing

00:25:26.900 --> 00:25:30.200
presenting it is it is a stereotype that she's

00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:31.859
presenting I don't want I don't want anybody

00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:35.150
to think that she's providing a complex view.

00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:37.670
She is providing a stereotype, but it's a positive

00:25:37.670 --> 00:25:41.369
stereotype and it actually works in favor of

00:25:41.369 --> 00:25:46.849
people having a greater respect for people going

00:25:46.849 --> 00:25:50.940
through things in China. Her experience of China

00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:53.180
was, can you very quickly run us where she came

00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:55.759
by her experience of China? She was the daughter

00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.480
of missionaries. Daughter of missionaries, okay.

00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:01.220
And then like them, she made her way over here.

00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:03.279
So she spent her childhood in China. Yes. So

00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.000
she's very familiar from growing up. She's very

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:10.779
familiar with China. She did kind of try to explain

00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:13.819
how China was different than most places, but

00:26:13.819 --> 00:26:18.190
she was also... She's also very good about getting

00:26:18.190 --> 00:26:21.470
out there and she didn't just write The Good

00:26:21.470 --> 00:26:24.670
Earth, she also wrote books about Chinese peasants,

00:26:24.970 --> 00:26:28.150
Dragon Seed, which was made as a movie with Catherine

00:26:28.150 --> 00:26:32.180
Hepburn as the Chinese freedom fighter. who is

00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:35.660
who is going after the Japanese there. She never

00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:39.380
wanted Americans or or in some cases British

00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:43.240
people to be portraying Chinese people. She always

00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:46.559
wanted Asians. She could never convince Hollywood

00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:52.839
of that. So let's turn back to kind of what we

00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.660
were seeing with regard to Henry Luce because

00:26:56.660 --> 00:26:59.400
Luce and Pearl bucks their paths are going to

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:03.579
cross at some point. Luce is taking the view

00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:06.960
where Pearl Buck is looking at Chinese peasants.

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.180
Luce is looking at the elites within China, and

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:13.539
he thinks Chiang Kai -shek is the most important

00:27:13.539 --> 00:27:16.799
person on the planet for like 200 years, given

00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.980
the consequential work that he is undertaking

00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:25.119
to modernize China. And he makes that case in

00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:28.440
his publications. So Luce would visit China along

00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:32.319
with his wife, playwright and politician Claire

00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:34.640
Booth Luce. They were kind of a power couple

00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:39.099
of their day. She was a successful Broadway playwright,

00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.220
author of The Women, and she was also a congresswoman

00:27:43.220 --> 00:27:48.220
from Connecticut. And they would establish what

00:27:48.220 --> 00:27:50.819
amount to a friendship with the Chang family.

00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:54.279
They kind of saw certain parallels between them,

00:27:54.460 --> 00:27:56.680
both of them being kind of couples of destiny.

00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:01.299
Interestingly, another couple of destiny. Luce

00:28:01.299 --> 00:28:04.079
absolutely despised and that was the Roosevelts.

00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.940
He hated them and Clare Booth Luce hated them

00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:12.180
as well. They were Rock River Republicans. But

00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:15.420
the Changs they got along with rather well. This

00:28:15.420 --> 00:28:18.740
seemed like this whole family was on the verge

00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:22.799
of promoting improved transportation, modernization,

00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.700
sanitation, and in particular equality of women,

00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:30.809
which was Mayling's big cause here. You know,

00:28:30.869 --> 00:28:33.470
they were, I mean, it sounds very much like the

00:28:33.470 --> 00:28:35.529
way they were thinking about China and its future.

00:28:35.630 --> 00:28:39.450
They were like 75, 80, 90 years ahead of themselves.

00:28:40.349 --> 00:28:43.650
What we've seen happen since, when you want to

00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:46.269
start at the 1990s in China, certainly in the

00:28:46.269 --> 00:28:50.029
21st century, China did raise rise in all these

00:28:50.029 --> 00:28:54.430
ways. They thought something similar would happen.

00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:57.509
Under Chiang Kai -shek back and back at that

00:28:57.509 --> 00:28:59.730
time though is they thought yeah modernize and

00:28:59.730 --> 00:29:03.369
rise in that way and And who knows? Yes, and

00:29:03.369 --> 00:29:06.069
who knows if Chiang Kai -shek could have consolidated

00:29:06.069 --> 00:29:09.309
control over all of China if he had found a way

00:29:09.309 --> 00:29:14.430
to kind of incorporate the communist come up

00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:18.140
with some way of not having a civil war with

00:29:18.140 --> 00:29:20.920
them, whether that means eliminating them or

00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.519
incorporating them as sort of coalition partners

00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:25.900
or something, who knows what would have happened.

00:29:26.019 --> 00:29:28.920
If Japan had not attacked. If Japan had not attacked

00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:31.079
while he's trying to consolidate control. In

00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:32.519
fact, I'm probably getting ahead of us, well

00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.420
ahead of us, but it's useful to note that one

00:29:34.420 --> 00:29:36.799
thing that really armed the Chinese communists

00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.299
and helped them get rolling in the Chinese civil

00:29:39.299 --> 00:29:41.079
war after World War II was the fact that the

00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:44.400
Soviet Union went into Manchuria Captured a bunch

00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.640
of equipment and supplies gave them to you know

00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:48.680
gave them to the communists Yeah, we then took

00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:50.220
them and use them against the nationalists. I'm

00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:51.900
getting ahead of us That's like in the late 40s,

00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:54.079
but you know a lot of what -ifs here where it

00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.599
could have gone very differently It could have

00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:57.720
gone a lot of differently, but you know, but

00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:01.440
you know it didn't it didn't loose is just he's

00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:15.150
perceiving Chang is the man of destiny Okay,

00:30:15.269 --> 00:30:19.250
so while the loose publications are eager in

00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:23.349
this period to portray China as this nascent,

00:30:23.630 --> 00:30:28.069
modernizing democracy, corruption was rife, probably

00:30:28.069 --> 00:30:33.930
even more so than what existed under the imperial

00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:39.690
system, under the Chang dynasty. It's no longer

00:30:39.690 --> 00:30:44.650
restricted to a narrow cadre of officials. and

00:30:44.650 --> 00:30:49.789
a court. You have corruption on a much wider

00:30:49.789 --> 00:30:52.609
scale with greater opportunities for corruption

00:30:52.609 --> 00:30:58.170
during this period in time. Lipservice is certainly

00:30:58.170 --> 00:31:01.549
portrayed democratic notions of plurality and

00:31:01.549 --> 00:31:03.970
freedom of expression, particularly when Americans

00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:07.930
are present. But these are never really realized.

00:31:09.109 --> 00:31:13.539
Chang is practicing what was called the White

00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:17.960
Terror at certain intervals, and the reforms

00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:20.519
that made Qing popular in the West are not really

00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:23.779
effectively implemented, nor were they necessarily

00:31:23.779 --> 00:31:27.480
as popular among world -dwelling, tradition -minded

00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:31.240
Chinese. And they couldn't be implemented because

00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:35.660
the pervasive fact of the matter is that Qing

00:31:35.660 --> 00:31:38.799
never gained effective control over all of China.

00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:42.299
Despite the invasion of China in 1931 with the

00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:45.500
Mukden incident, Chang's focus would always be

00:31:45.500 --> 00:31:48.980
attempting to eliminate his former allies, the

00:31:48.980 --> 00:31:51.779
members of the Chinese Communist Party. And it's

00:31:51.779 --> 00:31:56.559
hard to reform a country over which one exercises

00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:59.220
only limited control. Let's note that Marshall

00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:02.279
referred to the Mukden incident. The Mukden incident

00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:05.500
was an incident in 1931 manufactured by the Japanese.

00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:10.519
with Chinese Manchuria. Yes. In order to give

00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.019
the Japanese an excuse for taking over Manchuria,

00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.619
which they then proceeded to do. And so Henry

00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:19.779
P. Puyi. Henry Puyi, who was the last emperor.

00:32:20.019 --> 00:32:21.400
The last emperor. There's a movie, The Last Emperor

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:23.880
about him. That movie, yeah. But he was the Chinese

00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:29.700
emperor and they set up a government. Puppet

00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:33.200
state. A puppet state under him in Manchuria.

00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:36.970
So China lost control of Manchuria in 1931, and

00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:38.730
there were a series of military confrontations

00:32:38.730 --> 00:32:41.789
between China and Japan after that. But the major

00:32:41.789 --> 00:32:44.210
war between Japan and China, which was the second

00:32:44.210 --> 00:32:47.529
Sino -Japanese war, did not begin until 1937,

00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:49.230
just so everybody understands what we're talking

00:32:49.230 --> 00:32:52.450
about. But there is a clear and present threat

00:32:52.450 --> 00:32:59.490
from abroad that would grow with time, and the

00:32:59.490 --> 00:33:02.589
point being that Chang is not really focused

00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:06.990
on that, as he is trying to go in and achieve

00:33:06.990 --> 00:33:09.289
final victory over the Chinese Communists. I'm

00:33:09.289 --> 00:33:11.009
not trying to downplay the Japanese threat. The

00:33:11.009 --> 00:33:12.930
Japanese are on the march. That's pretty clear.

00:33:13.009 --> 00:33:15.210
They have other ambitions and intentions in the

00:33:15.210 --> 00:33:17.609
Pacific and East Asia. That's also very clear.

00:33:18.130 --> 00:33:20.029
And you can see them coming. You can see more

00:33:20.029 --> 00:33:22.569
is going to happen with the Japanese. But there

00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:24.950
is a period from 1931 to 37 where there isn't,

00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:26.670
well, there isn't that much open combat. There

00:33:26.670 --> 00:33:29.680
were Japanese There was Japanese involvement

00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.799
in some things, like the Nanking incident, it

00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:35.420
was well done, Nanjing later, right? Yes. Things

00:33:35.420 --> 00:33:39.380
like that. I'm sorry, the Shanghai. The Shanghai

00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:42.339
incident. Nanjing was the 1937 one. The 1932

00:33:42.339 --> 00:33:44.180
incident in Shanghai, where the Japanese went

00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:47.799
ashore there and there was civil disorder and

00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:49.140
things that they got involved in. There were

00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:53.829
a few things. But the Japanese were not... in

00:33:53.829 --> 00:33:55.490
constant combat with the Chinese again until

00:33:55.490 --> 00:33:58.470
1937 when you mentioned the white terror I was

00:33:58.470 --> 00:34:00.809
gonna ask about that because I didn't like terror

00:34:00.809 --> 00:34:05.690
is basically trying to suppress radicals and

00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:12.309
other dissident notions that were existing in

00:34:12.309 --> 00:34:17.550
China that were outside of the KMT Chang's political

00:34:17.550 --> 00:34:20.010
party So white is like the same thing as like

00:34:20.010 --> 00:34:21.889
the whites fighting in the russians so whites

00:34:21.889 --> 00:34:24.670
anti -communist anti -communist Anti -radical

00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:26.750
and reds are the communist. Yes. Okay. I just

00:34:26.750 --> 00:34:28.269
I thought that's what that was But I want to

00:34:28.269 --> 00:34:31.050
make sure that we're all on that that when when

00:34:31.050 --> 00:34:33.750
just just to uh, we've jumped a little ahead

00:34:33.750 --> 00:34:37.309
when after after chang and company make their

00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:41.869
way to uh, taiwan white terror becomes more or

00:34:41.869 --> 00:34:47.150
less the norm in taiwan for possibly I want to

00:34:47.150 --> 00:34:52.380
say 60 years I might be mistaken about that but

00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:56.420
it was we are not looking at the the origins

00:34:56.420 --> 00:35:00.260
of plurality here and To his credit Chang would

00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:03.380
have said well, we we aren't in a position for

00:35:03.380 --> 00:35:09.119
plurality, but you're also asserting That you

00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:15.019
are promoting democratic ideals democracy Western

00:35:15.019 --> 00:35:18.869
approaches to things but at the same time you're

00:35:18.869 --> 00:35:21.690
being more repressive than the government that

00:35:21.690 --> 00:35:25.530
your regime kind of sort of replaced. I mean,

00:35:26.210 --> 00:35:28.949
the Manchus are not going to be worried about

00:35:28.949 --> 00:35:32.949
people's ideology except if it disturbs the natural

00:35:32.949 --> 00:35:36.289
order of things. They had a problem with the

00:35:36.289 --> 00:35:39.849
Taiping Rebellion, but say if somebody is prattling

00:35:39.849 --> 00:35:45.789
on about Marxism in Canton in 1848, they're not

00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:49.710
really going to care. And I mean, maybe that's

00:35:49.710 --> 00:35:51.690
the fundamental weakness of the whole imperial

00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:54.530
system, but you're dealing with greater degrees

00:35:54.530 --> 00:35:59.130
of repression, but you're certainly not doing

00:35:59.130 --> 00:36:03.190
anything to kind of create the world that you

00:36:03.190 --> 00:36:06.550
allege that you're trying to build. Yeah, I mean,

00:36:06.590 --> 00:36:10.150
if you're going to compare the Manchus, the Qing

00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:13.090
dynasty, with... Chung was trying to do. It's

00:36:13.090 --> 00:36:15.769
fundamentally different. The Qing dynasty is

00:36:15.769 --> 00:36:21.230
trying to maintain what it's got. Chung is notionally

00:36:21.230 --> 00:36:24.210
trying to create a new China over which he doesn't

00:36:24.210 --> 00:36:26.489
have complete control, as you've been saying.

00:36:27.510 --> 00:36:32.309
The two are completely different political situations.

00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:36.280
You know, how would you carry out all these reforms

00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:38.119
in an environment in which you have to fight

00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:40.260
with warlords, you have a communist insurgency,

00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:42.739
you have Japan knocking at the door? These are

00:36:42.739 --> 00:36:46.039
all factors that are going to tend towards authoritarianism,

00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.159
not towards enacting democratic ideals. Exactly.

00:36:49.579 --> 00:36:52.340
It's the rare country that can come up with democratic

00:36:52.340 --> 00:36:55.150
ideals and enforce them. under the circumstances

00:36:55.150 --> 00:36:59.030
that China was was facing in the 1930s. But we

00:36:59.030 --> 00:37:03.909
did not appreciate that. There is a total, we're

00:37:03.909 --> 00:37:05.590
going to get into this later on, but there is

00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:09.590
an idea that there is a sort of deliberate incompetence

00:37:09.590 --> 00:37:14.050
on the part of Chiang Kai -shek, and that if

00:37:14.050 --> 00:37:17.110
only there were competent officials, kind of

00:37:17.110 --> 00:37:20.570
like, you know, my favorite excuse for why there

00:37:20.570 --> 00:37:24.420
wasn't Peace in Vietnam a negotiated settlement

00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:28.579
this this this this sort of like slogan You know

00:37:28.579 --> 00:37:32.380
to sort of advance things we need to kind of

00:37:32.380 --> 00:37:35.139
grade him on the curve here but we also need

00:37:35.139 --> 00:37:38.199
to be mindful of the fact that what people are

00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:42.260
expecting to have happen and That it's not happening.

00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.219
That is that is part and parcel of where we're

00:37:45.219 --> 00:37:48.960
gonna have the dilemma That we're going to have

00:37:49.389 --> 00:37:52.030
as we get involved in the war. So I think what

00:37:52.030 --> 00:37:54.289
you're saying is the American misunderstanding

00:37:54.289 --> 00:37:59.150
of China at this point is that we think that

00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:01.570
the problems are Chiang Kai -shek's fault. It

00:38:01.570 --> 00:38:04.510
does not really have to do with China inherently

00:38:04.510 --> 00:38:07.360
or intrinsically. It's not It's not the political,

00:38:07.539 --> 00:38:09.400
that they're fixable. It's not well, it's not

00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.780
the sociological and political situation in China,

00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:14.960
which is at fault for what's going wrong. It's

00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:17.079
Zheng Kai -shek who is. Yes. A competent person

00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.480
would overcome all of these things. Yes. All

00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:21.739
of these. And create a Jeffersonian democracy

00:38:21.739 --> 00:38:25.860
and throughout China. Apparently. And we will

00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:28.539
see that this, that the pendulum swings in the

00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:31.760
opposite direction. When we, when we look at,

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.719
we look at how people are viewing the communist.

00:38:37.919 --> 00:38:44.639
To move on, a lot of proponents for Chang, including

00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:48.260
Luce, they're tending to ignore all of these

00:38:48.260 --> 00:38:50.599
inconvenient facts, these shortcomings of the

00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:53.119
regime, as did the general population in the

00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:56.980
United States. They all have positive views of

00:38:56.980 --> 00:38:59.880
Chang, particularly if they're hoping to see

00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:03.920
China Christianized. Chang himself was probably

00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:08.659
not personally corrupt, but his family certainly

00:39:08.659 --> 00:39:15.860
was, and this was not really understood. So over

00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:19.260
the course of Chang's regime, they managed to

00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.900
make off with about $20 million, which would

00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:27.699
be the equivalent of $463 million today. The

00:39:27.699 --> 00:39:30.300
extended family almost gloried in the extent

00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:32.980
of their corruption, particularly at the war

00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:36.480
with Japan brought in extensive American aid

00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:38.800
and this of course was only the tip of the iceberg

00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.380
because the only thing that I'm talking about

00:39:42.380 --> 00:39:46.059
here is just what Chang and his Circle managed

00:39:46.059 --> 00:39:48.500
to get away with or I should say Mei Ling and

00:39:48.500 --> 00:39:50.980
her circle managed to get away with there are

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:54.420
ample opportunities for poor corrupt officials

00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:57.880
to better themselves Can I ask you though when

00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:01.199
you say they gloried in their in their corruption?

00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:03.780
Yes. What do you mean by they gloried in it?

00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:06.199
Conspicuous consumption. Conspicuous consumption.

00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:10.639
Okay. She was, Mei Ling was one of the best dressed

00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.380
women on the planet at the time and her country

00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:16.340
is at war. I mean you're not seeing Mrs. Churchill

00:40:16.340 --> 00:40:19.219
strut around in designer fashions. So did anybody

00:40:19.219 --> 00:40:21.869
say, how could this... How could she afford such

00:40:21.869 --> 00:40:23.550
nice dresses in the middle of a war? Did anybody

00:40:23.550 --> 00:40:25.510
say that? No. Or it was pretty much just ignored?

00:40:25.929 --> 00:40:27.809
She was a woman of style and grace. She was a

00:40:27.809 --> 00:40:29.090
woman of style and grace. One of the most admired

00:40:29.090 --> 00:40:30.969
women in the world, so that's the way you dress.

00:40:31.429 --> 00:40:34.449
Yes. You know, we're not seeing her strut around

00:40:34.449 --> 00:40:38.809
in fatigues, as is the case, say, with the Chinese

00:40:38.809 --> 00:40:41.889
Communist women. Wearing them like Mao suits.

00:40:42.010 --> 00:40:47.380
Yeah. You know, it's not the message that you're

00:40:47.380 --> 00:40:51.360
seeing in in Luce's publications, and this is

00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:53.920
not a view that was promoted by the U .S. government,

00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:57.639
who tended to love China, along with other wartime

00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.320
leaders under the threat of the Axis. And this

00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:03.260
is despite, just to show how flexible Chang is,

00:41:04.219 --> 00:41:07.090
in the 1930s he was very, he had written some

00:41:07.090 --> 00:41:10.469
very positive things about Adolf Hitler and fascism,

00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:13.550
and he thought fascism was just a ducky. This

00:41:13.550 --> 00:41:17.750
is all ignored by us as we are embracing him

00:41:17.750 --> 00:41:21.230
as a wartime ally. And what exactly the regime

00:41:21.230 --> 00:41:23.150
stands for. You can see how that happened. There

00:41:23.150 --> 00:41:25.150
were a lot of people who, you know, Mussolini

00:41:25.150 --> 00:41:28.550
made the train run on time. And I mentioned earlier,

00:41:28.550 --> 00:41:32.230
you know, how you could easily not understand

00:41:32.230 --> 00:41:34.889
that that what Hitler was up to in the 30s until

00:41:34.889 --> 00:41:40.230
you actually saw what he did later. It was easy

00:41:40.230 --> 00:41:43.230
for someone like Hitler or Mussolini to bamboozle

00:41:43.230 --> 00:41:44.949
a lot of people and make it look like they were

00:41:44.949 --> 00:41:46.809
some kind of actually, in a way, progressive.

00:41:46.829 --> 00:41:48.489
It's funny to say that word, but some kind of

00:41:48.489 --> 00:41:50.130
progressive force that was making their countries

00:41:50.130 --> 00:41:53.510
better. And you could cherry pick things that

00:41:53.510 --> 00:41:55.769
could, quote unquote, prove that. You can see

00:41:55.769 --> 00:41:58.710
that. I'm going to give Chang a little bit of

00:41:58.710 --> 00:42:02.059
a pass on that because That was that was actually

00:42:02.059 --> 00:42:04.340
a fairly common way of looking at things I'm

00:42:04.340 --> 00:42:06.860
losing in the 30s and then later in the 30s Mussolini

00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:09.460
Hitler both it took a while for people to really

00:42:09.460 --> 00:42:12.099
turn against To really see Hitler for what he

00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:14.739
for what he was and particularly since Hitler's

00:42:14.739 --> 00:42:27.119
on another continent, too So while Chang's early

00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.329
flirtation with fascism is ignored in 1941 Luce

00:42:31.329 --> 00:42:35.730
in this period is not totally averse to discussing

00:42:35.730 --> 00:42:39.369
the issue of corruption and even competency in

00:42:39.369 --> 00:42:43.869
his publications. He permitted during this period,

00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:48.969
prior to the US involvement in World War II,

00:42:49.070 --> 00:42:54.949
some discussion of corruption. His china correspondent

00:42:54.949 --> 00:42:58.789
Theodore white who will discuss more on later

00:42:58.789 --> 00:43:08.750
Made a great deal about Mention about this But

00:43:08.989 --> 00:43:12.230
It's not they don't go far enough. That's what's

00:43:12.230 --> 00:43:14.570
that's what's kind of a little bit alarming you

00:43:14.570 --> 00:43:17.730
have these people on the ground and So things

00:43:17.730 --> 00:43:21.150
have gotten so bad with the Chinese that the

00:43:21.150 --> 00:43:25.829
economy had collapsed Effectively there was no

00:43:25.829 --> 00:43:32.250
economy now nothing of this dire sort appears

00:43:33.590 --> 00:43:36.210
In the report in the reporting of the time this

00:43:36.210 --> 00:43:38.769
is something that we find and maybe it's a question

00:43:38.769 --> 00:43:42.570
of access and history and so forth, but No one's

00:43:42.570 --> 00:43:46.690
really seems to be aware about this in the contemporary

00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:49.869
period in the popular press. We're not really

00:43:49.869 --> 00:43:54.300
having people upset about this, say like when

00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:57.320
the Russian economy collapsed, as it periodically

00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:01.519
did in the 1990s, everyone's aware of this. There's

00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:05.519
no sweeping it under the rug. You don't find

00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:09.559
this reflected in the reporting that is made

00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:13.750
available at the time. uh to to westerners you

00:44:13.750 --> 00:44:16.710
don't really find it reflected you you find them

00:44:16.710 --> 00:44:20.130
going through dire circumstances brought on by

00:44:20.130 --> 00:44:23.389
the japanese but nothing quite as bad as things

00:44:23.389 --> 00:44:28.050
really were uh there's no really real understanding

00:44:28.050 --> 00:44:32.110
of just that the japanese control most of china's

00:44:32.110 --> 00:44:35.150
pre -war industrial economy at this point and

00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:38.349
much of the wealth that existed came from this

00:44:38.349 --> 00:44:42.260
agrarian sector which is not necessarily being

00:44:42.260 --> 00:44:46.599
all that supportive of Chang's attempts at modernization

00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:50.639
with things like female equality and so forth.

00:44:52.019 --> 00:44:57.380
The source of revenue is not really being appealed

00:44:57.380 --> 00:45:02.000
to in the way that it could be. And this gets

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:06.460
us back to just how well things are being managed

00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:11.429
and what is indeed possible in China. Under this

00:45:11.429 --> 00:45:14.590
environment. So even pearl buck was brought in

00:45:14.590 --> 00:45:19.269
and she produced an essay in 1941 That discussed

00:45:19.269 --> 00:45:21.250
among other things the extent of the corruption

00:45:21.250 --> 00:45:25.269
by the chang regime. This was in life The the

00:45:25.269 --> 00:45:28.409
sort of flagship this life was so influential

00:45:28.409 --> 00:45:31.690
that one quarter of the households took a subscription

00:45:31.690 --> 00:45:35.289
to it Something that is unimaginable. I was gonna

00:45:35.289 --> 00:45:39.500
say that is Astounding, really. Yeah. And that

00:45:39.500 --> 00:45:41.739
is, those are the people that are going to be

00:45:41.739 --> 00:45:43.960
counted on. I wish we could get an audience like

00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:47.440
that for podcasts here. I'd love a quarter of

00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:50.920
the population to be. But when you have that

00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:53.699
kind of access, it's not just, you're not just

00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:55.940
limited to 25%. Those are the people you can

00:45:55.940 --> 00:45:59.179
count on to read you week after week. It's not

00:45:59.179 --> 00:46:02.219
newsstand sales, it's not anything. It is impossible

00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:05.679
now in the fragmented media that we have to contact

00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:09.489
or come to any sort of comparison that would

00:46:09.489 --> 00:46:13.349
fit in this case, in terms of the ability to

00:46:13.349 --> 00:46:16.190
impact. A quarter of the population. A quarter

00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:17.449
of the population week after week after week.

00:46:17.449 --> 00:46:19.670
You don't think Fox News has that kind of reach?

00:46:19.750 --> 00:46:23.650
I do. A quarter of the population. It's probably

00:46:23.650 --> 00:46:26.929
close. But they're not, you know, I don't know,

00:46:27.030 --> 00:46:32.949
I don't know. When you look at cable news, viewership...

00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:36.099
On a typical night, it's like two million people

00:46:36.099 --> 00:46:39.760
are watching Fox News and a million and a half

00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.980
are watching MS Now and a million or 750 ,000

00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:47.099
are watching CNN. Those are the kind of levels

00:46:47.099 --> 00:46:49.699
you have now. That's not a quarter of the population.

00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:53.300
No, it is not. Of course, it's not the same.

00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.079
I mean, that's how many people are watching at

00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:59.340
any given moment. I mean, more people than that

00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.099
might watch each night or each week or whatever.

00:47:02.990 --> 00:47:05.590
But the magazine is sitting there on everybody's

00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:07.570
coffee table. It's gonna be saturated all over

00:47:07.570 --> 00:47:09.550
the place You know, it's it's hard to compare

00:47:09.550 --> 00:47:13.030
the two but clearly well in addition to that

00:47:13.030 --> 00:47:15.110
I mean, this is this is kind of going a little

00:47:15.110 --> 00:47:17.150
bit beyond China But if we're just talking about

00:47:17.150 --> 00:47:21.110
the impact of loose publications and loses message

00:47:21.110 --> 00:47:26.449
Not just China, but just in general He did have

00:47:26.449 --> 00:47:31.500
the March of Time Which was a radio show? That

00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:35.400
was on CBS. This is kind of before they had network

00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:40.820
news So this was network news and there were

00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:44.559
newsreels and they would you know if you if you

00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:46.599
want to know kind of what what this looked like

00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:48.940
if you've ever seen Citizen Kane this is what

00:47:48.940 --> 00:47:52.079
they're doing at the beginning to try and construct

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:54.599
a biography of Kane this is kind of the march

00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:57.900
of time that they would show RKO was the original

00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:02.260
distributor for that and then Paramount. and

00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:06.219
this persisted until 1951. So there is a lot

00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:10.300
of impact that he can have. He took a multimedia

00:48:10.300 --> 00:48:12.460
approach. He took a multimedia approach to marketing.

00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:16.039
Now, when I was researching this, I did not find

00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:19.019
anything specifically related to China, but I'm

00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:24.260
just saying there is a reach, a grasp that exists

00:48:24.260 --> 00:48:27.480
during that period. And is that specific to Luce

00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.539
or are there others? That's specific to Luce.

00:48:29.539 --> 00:48:35.119
I mean, Hearst also had a pioneer, had an even

00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:39.480
more sophisticated media approach. Now William

00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.460
Randolph Hearst, FYI, was a publisher who owned

00:48:42.460 --> 00:48:45.480
a nationwide string of newspapers and also published

00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:48.619
a number of magazines and books. He's also known

00:48:48.619 --> 00:48:51.340
as the founder of Yellow Journalism. And he was

00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:54.820
the inspiration for the film Citizen Kane. His

00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:58.000
is more entertainment than it is news. News is

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.480
an important part of it, but you know, he would

00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.039
have, stories would be developed in publications

00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:08.079
which would be made into movies and so forth.

00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:11.139
You know, one would feed the, and then publicity

00:49:11.139 --> 00:49:15.880
would basically drive that. And he could intimidate

00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:18.699
people with ads, whether or not he would allow

00:49:18.699 --> 00:49:22.039
people to purchase ads in his publications. With

00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:24.909
Luce, To get back to this essay by Pearl Buck,

00:49:25.309 --> 00:49:28.429
Lewis decided that that was enough. Okay, we've

00:49:28.429 --> 00:49:31.550
explored the full range of corruption. We don't

00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:33.769
need to be talking about corruption anymore.

00:49:34.469 --> 00:49:37.449
And it didn't really lead him to reevaluate his

00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:40.269
assessment of Chiang Kai -shek being the most

00:49:40.269 --> 00:49:43.070
important person in the last 200 years in all

00:49:43.070 --> 00:49:45.829
of human history. He felt like corruption has

00:49:45.829 --> 00:49:48.980
been addressed. It's not necessary to go on to

00:49:48.980 --> 00:49:52.539
anything more. He's treated as a proponent of

00:49:52.539 --> 00:49:54.940
democracy along the lines of Winston Churchill.

00:49:55.780 --> 00:49:59.840
He's key to the salvation of Asia. And it's important

00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:02.920
to consider that when we're talking about China

00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:07.920
here, there is the Asian component because because

00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:11.659
people who are you're either a colony or you're

00:50:11.659 --> 00:50:14.800
China or you're Japan. Who espoused the salvation

00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:17.159
of Asia? Where does that phrase come from? That

00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:20.119
is a phrase that I found in the book that talked

00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:24.739
about Christianization by Chiang Kai -shek and

00:50:24.739 --> 00:50:27.940
his wife. I think it's called Christianizers

00:50:27.940 --> 00:50:31.420
of China. So it's religious. It's religious,

00:50:31.900 --> 00:50:36.480
yes. Okay. But to carry on, we're kind of blurring

00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.420
things, but we're, you know, I think we're kind

00:50:38.420 --> 00:50:41.179
of at the wartime period here. You know what,

00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:43.039
Marshall, before you go on though, I mean, one

00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:44.730
thing that's a little... bit of our discussion

00:50:44.730 --> 00:50:46.909
that makes me think of is Americans are always

00:50:46.909 --> 00:50:49.750
prone to looking at other countries and trying

00:50:49.750 --> 00:50:53.150
to find like their George Washington. Yeah. We

00:50:53.150 --> 00:50:56.030
do that over and over again. Yeah. And we often

00:50:56.030 --> 00:50:57.690
even openly say, well, he's the George Washington

00:50:57.690 --> 00:50:59.690
of that country. And we're generally wrong about

00:50:59.690 --> 00:51:01.530
that. You know, I just look at this and I'm thinking

00:51:01.530 --> 00:51:03.170
like, we're looking for a George Washington and

00:51:03.170 --> 00:51:05.349
Chun Kai -shek seems to be the George Washington

00:51:05.349 --> 00:51:08.030
of China. At least to Luce. To Luce he does.

00:51:08.250 --> 00:51:11.690
Yes. and others. I mean, Luce is not alone with

00:51:11.690 --> 00:51:14.909
this. I'm picking Luce because Luce is the one

00:51:14.909 --> 00:51:18.909
who's trying to make opinion about this and is

00:51:18.909 --> 00:51:24.090
actually encountering a counter -narrative to

00:51:24.090 --> 00:51:28.130
this, which he is, if not ignoring, then trying

00:51:28.130 --> 00:51:32.610
to suppress. So Chang, in this case, has kind

00:51:32.610 --> 00:51:34.849
of treated it along the lines of Winston Churchill.

00:51:35.309 --> 00:51:39.320
And Luce is insisting that his publications provide

00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:42.780
a positive presentation of Zhang, his family,

00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:47.099
and his government, even if this is false. Because

00:51:47.099 --> 00:51:49.699
he feels like it serves the greater good in the

00:51:49.699 --> 00:51:51.780
long term So when you say when you say he's viewed

00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:53.360
like Winston Churchill, so we're talking now

00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:55.199
about the war year We are talking more years

00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:56.880
in Europe United States is not in the war yet

00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:59.320
Yes, the war years in Europe the war years Churchill

00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:01.260
is standing alone and the England is standing

00:52:01.260 --> 00:52:03.340
alone Britain's thing alone against the not Chang

00:52:03.340 --> 00:52:05.579
is standing against the Japanese Chang is saying

00:52:05.579 --> 00:52:08.519
is the Japanese. Okay, gotcha, you know and and

00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:12.469
so it's like 1940. Yes Into 41 that that era

00:52:12.469 --> 00:52:15.230
and loose is very critical of roosevelt in this

00:52:15.230 --> 00:52:17.750
thing in this period of time because he doesn't

00:52:17.750 --> 00:52:20.329
feel like roosevelt's moving far enough or fast

00:52:20.329 --> 00:52:25.349
enough, which is again Almost the direct opposite

00:52:25.349 --> 00:52:29.769
position as people are taking with regard to

00:52:29.769 --> 00:52:32.170
Involvement in the european phase of world war

00:52:32.170 --> 00:52:37.130
two, although he was pro -intervention pro involvement

00:52:37.130 --> 00:52:40.130
and he wasn't he was anti -isolation loose was

00:52:40.130 --> 00:52:45.050
Let's look at some other folks and their attitude

00:52:45.050 --> 00:52:49.630
and and let's deal with uh, perhaps The person

00:52:49.630 --> 00:52:52.389
that uh loose hated most in the world and that

00:52:52.389 --> 00:52:56.019
was franklin roosevelt Franklin Roosevelt was

00:52:56.019 --> 00:52:58.780
a proponent of Chang. Chang didn't leave China,

00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:01.579
but his wife Mei Ling, Madame Chiang Kai -shek,

00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:04.420
she left China and she was frequently put up

00:53:04.420 --> 00:53:08.059
at the White House. She was invited to the the

00:53:08.059 --> 00:53:11.159
nightly cocktail hour and Roosevelt tended to

00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:14.559
evaluate Chang as a kind of freedom fighter and

00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:17.750
described him as having a post -war role. as

00:53:17.750 --> 00:53:20.590
one of the four policemen who would provide stability

00:53:20.590 --> 00:53:24.070
in the post -war world. The others being the

00:53:24.070 --> 00:53:26.510
United States, the Soviet Union, and the British

00:53:26.510 --> 00:53:30.070
Empire. Looking at everything that we can see

00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:33.969
about the state of China, and I mean, Soviet

00:53:33.969 --> 00:53:36.329
Union's going through hell, British Empire's

00:53:36.329 --> 00:53:39.389
going through hell, but Chang is by no sense

00:53:39.389 --> 00:53:42.949
in this league at all. He never really was able,

00:53:43.150 --> 00:53:45.960
I cannot emphasize this too much, consolidate

00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:50.000
power over all of China and would never do so

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:53.699
after 20 years. Military and financial aid that

00:53:53.699 --> 00:53:56.739
was provided seemed to go through a sieve of

00:53:56.739 --> 00:54:01.539
corruption. And despite being an ally and supposedly

00:54:01.539 --> 00:54:05.420
opposing Japan, he's focused mainly on a strategy

00:54:05.420 --> 00:54:09.719
that provided that prioritize opposition to his

00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:12.460
one time communist allies over actually fighting

00:54:12.460 --> 00:54:16.019
the war with Japan. To look back, back in the

00:54:16.019 --> 00:54:19.320
back in the 30s, some of his generals were actually

00:54:20.210 --> 00:54:23.809
annoyed with him for opposing any sort of collaborative

00:54:23.809 --> 00:54:27.269
effort with the communists to try and fight the

00:54:27.269 --> 00:54:29.690
Japanese, that they ended up kidnapping Chang

00:54:29.690 --> 00:54:33.489
without his false teeth, which kind of created

00:54:33.489 --> 00:54:36.309
some difficulties for him. And they only agreed

00:54:36.309 --> 00:54:38.090
to set him free if he would prioritize fighting

00:54:38.090 --> 00:54:41.989
the Japanese. This is how bad things are with

00:54:41.989 --> 00:54:44.550
regard to the government. And this is something

00:54:44.550 --> 00:54:49.039
he agreed to, but continued consistently to provide

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:55.940
only lackluster support. Chang was so anti -communist

00:54:55.940 --> 00:55:01.320
that he actually felt the Japanese POWs were

00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:05.159
better and more reliable than having Chinese

00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.780
people maintain order in areas that had been

00:55:08.780 --> 00:55:12.400
liberated. So rather than turn over control to

00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:14.780
the Chinese communists you would leave Japanese

00:55:14.780 --> 00:55:18.880
officials in place and urge them to basically

00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:23.980
fulfill obligations and Orders that way so you're

00:55:23.980 --> 00:55:27.099
saying he captured his forces captured Japanese.

00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:34.800
Yes Soldiers yes, and He released them. Yes with

00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:38.760
the expectation. Yes that they would run Those

00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:41.920
portions of China liberated parts of China his

00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.000
government liberated meaning back under his control.

00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:48.139
Yes In the interest of the nationalist government

00:55:48.139 --> 00:55:53.199
and not of Japan. Yeah boy That's a new one on

00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:56.280
me and now just imagine if I don't think World

00:55:56.280 --> 00:56:00.519
War two Japanese work that way, but well It would

00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:05.750
be like if we had gone into France and liberated

00:56:05.750 --> 00:56:08.989
parts of France and say like because we don't

00:56:08.989 --> 00:56:12.630
like de Gaulle, which we didn't, let's leave

00:56:12.630 --> 00:56:16.150
the Germans to run the parts of liberated France

00:56:16.150 --> 00:56:20.449
in 1944 because we don't want de Gaulle taking

00:56:20.449 --> 00:56:22.650
control. This is kind of what I would say would

00:56:22.650 --> 00:56:26.050
be the would be kind of the kind of crazy equivalent

00:56:26.050 --> 00:56:28.929
to that. I get him thinking the communists are

00:56:28.929 --> 00:56:31.730
the bigger problem in the long run than the Japanese

00:56:31.730 --> 00:56:34.349
are. You can make an argument for that. You know,

00:56:34.349 --> 00:56:37.030
I guess I mean in the end letting the japanese

00:56:37.030 --> 00:56:39.809
go to run to run china for you because that's

00:56:39.809 --> 00:56:43.090
better than having the communist do it Oh, I

00:56:43.090 --> 00:56:45.369
don't know. Well, he is regarding. I don't know

00:56:45.369 --> 00:56:47.530
about that one I mean like the comparison that

00:56:47.530 --> 00:56:50.610
he himself made was that he viewed the chinese

00:56:50.610 --> 00:56:55.550
communist as a cancer a malignant cancer And

00:56:55.550 --> 00:56:59.050
the japanese as a superficial threat and we should

00:56:59.050 --> 00:57:00.769
keep this in mind the japanese were fighting

00:57:00.769 --> 00:57:06.550
like hell in in in china Chang is having to shift

00:57:06.550 --> 00:57:09.670
capital from that from 1937. Yeah, especially

00:57:09.670 --> 00:57:12.670
in 37. They made huge gains Yes, and into 1938,

00:57:13.170 --> 00:57:14.630
you know when I misspoke earlier and talked about

00:57:14.630 --> 00:57:16.969
the Nan the Nan King incident Yeah, and what

00:57:16.969 --> 00:57:18.750
I what I was to add my mind there was actually

00:57:18.750 --> 00:57:21.489
at 1938 that the terrible massacre and things

00:57:21.489 --> 00:57:24.070
that happened in Nan King and 38 as opposed to

00:57:24.070 --> 00:57:26.139
when I met Shanghai earlier You know, all of

00:57:26.139 --> 00:57:27.760
that happened then. That's what he was dealing

00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:30.039
with at the time. Nanking was his capital at

00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:32.119
the time. Right. He had fled that. Yeah, he fled

00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:35.760
that. Well, actually, their capital was never

00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.340
Peking, or now it's called Beijing. It never

00:57:38.340 --> 00:57:42.960
was. It was Nanking, now Nanjing. And then, like

00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:45.480
you said, they moved it to Chongqing to get away

00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.000
from the Japanese. Yes. Just to clarify that

00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:50.889
for everyone. So, I mean, it's, you know, the

00:57:50.889 --> 00:57:52.550
idea that you're going to trust people that are

00:57:52.550 --> 00:57:55.329
causing you to take it on the lam there kind

00:57:55.329 --> 00:57:58.769
of shows the extent of his sort of tunnel vision

00:57:58.769 --> 00:58:03.230
with regard to the the communists there. Well,

00:58:03.289 --> 00:58:06.110
let's realize the Japanese and Chinese were fighting

00:58:06.110 --> 00:58:11.610
each other for centuries. But. centuries. I mean,

00:58:11.670 --> 00:58:14.710
I did not necessarily incorporate this into the

00:58:14.710 --> 00:58:18.130
book, but Nanjing, there is a book by a woman

00:58:18.130 --> 00:58:22.070
named Iris Chang, and a lot of the stuff about

00:58:22.070 --> 00:58:26.510
World War Two and China did not necessarily make

00:58:26.510 --> 00:58:29.969
it into the historical record. So if we're looking

00:58:29.969 --> 00:58:32.170
at stuff that's that's been forgotten or been

00:58:32.170 --> 00:58:35.989
ignored, I would say that that is that is part

00:58:35.989 --> 00:58:39.010
of a front in the war that does not receive the

00:58:39.010 --> 00:58:42.710
attention. She did a book about Nanjing and the

00:58:42.710 --> 00:58:46.190
massacres that occurred there by the Japanese,

00:58:46.489 --> 00:58:50.309
and these are freaking horrendous. It is not,

00:58:50.309 --> 00:58:53.920
you know, We kind of knew something horrendous

00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:57.139
had happened, but it was so bad It was so bad

00:58:57.139 --> 00:59:00.440
that the Nazis the Nazis thought this was horrific

00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:03.300
Because this was the capital there was a guy

00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:05.699
who had diplomatic standing that I remember in

00:59:05.699 --> 00:59:10.019
the book and he was just Sending notes to Berlin

00:59:10.019 --> 00:59:12.480
saying you cannot believe what the Japanese are

00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:16.719
doing here One example, which is a level of cruelty

00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:19.309
that never would have occurred to me was You've

00:59:19.309 --> 00:59:21.329
seen in movies when soldiers do bayonet practice.

00:59:21.329 --> 00:59:23.090
So they have like the dummy that they go up and

00:59:23.090 --> 00:59:26.789
they stab or something The Japanese at Nanking

00:59:26.789 --> 00:59:30.489
were using Chinese prisoners for bayonet practice

00:59:30.489 --> 00:59:34.309
and things live Chinese prisoners. Yeah, that's

00:59:34.309 --> 00:59:36.389
how That's how ugly it was. That's just one example

00:59:36.389 --> 00:59:39.090
of our barbaric, atrocious, what they were doing

00:59:39.090 --> 00:59:40.809
there. Well, I mean, for the war in general,

00:59:40.969 --> 00:59:43.210
there were all sorts of biological experiments

00:59:43.210 --> 00:59:46.409
that were akin to what Mengele was doing. They

00:59:46.409 --> 00:59:48.610
had an active, the Japanese had an active chemical

00:59:48.610 --> 00:59:51.469
warfare, quite advanced chemical warfare program,

00:59:52.050 --> 00:59:54.849
and they used Chinese prisoners to practice,

00:59:55.190 --> 00:59:58.050
to test the chemicals. Yes. Yeah. You mentioned

00:59:58.050 --> 00:59:59.909
them, you know, fight, Blake, you mentioned them

00:59:59.909 --> 01:00:02.630
fighting. for so long. Centuries. That's why

01:00:02.630 --> 01:00:05.710
it's appalling that Chiang Kai -shek would actually

01:00:05.710 --> 01:00:09.369
trust them. Well, and, you know, over -communist.

01:00:09.670 --> 01:00:11.690
Over -communist. And what for them was very fairly

01:00:11.690 --> 01:00:14.730
recent times, right? This fighting here from

01:00:14.809 --> 01:00:18.130
37 in into 19 well actually all the way to 1945

01:00:18.130 --> 01:00:20.650
is considered the second Sino -Japanese war which

01:00:20.650 --> 01:00:23.110
is what we're talking Yeah, but there was a first

01:00:23.110 --> 01:00:26.110
Sino -Japanese war in 1894 1895 That's how the

01:00:26.110 --> 01:00:28.550
Japanese got control of what is now called Taiwan

01:00:28.550 --> 01:00:30.369
It was known as Formosa in those days, right?

01:00:30.469 --> 01:00:32.250
But that was it that island was under Japanese

01:00:32.250 --> 01:00:34.989
control from 1895 to 1945 wasn't till the end

01:00:34.989 --> 01:00:38.010
of World War two That it was returned to China.

01:00:38.250 --> 01:00:40.309
You had the Japanese involvement and fighting

01:00:40.309 --> 01:00:43.269
in the Boxer Rebellion You had the Mukden incident

01:00:43.269 --> 01:00:45.530
we talked about earlier, which gave the Japanese

01:00:45.530 --> 01:00:49.309
an excuse to seize Manchuria in 1931. The Shanghai

01:00:49.309 --> 01:00:52.210
incident in 1932. Now you've got the second sign

01:00:52.210 --> 01:00:54.750
of Japanese war in 1937, 1938, which is the most

01:00:54.750 --> 01:01:00.579
intense of all, you know, probably. Japanese

01:01:00.579 --> 01:01:02.719
wound up capturing like most of eastern northern

01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:05.619
and eastern China during these campaigns 37 38

01:01:05.619 --> 01:01:08.719
rapid advances on things So yeah, it was a huge

01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:11.380
fight. So we're not looking at the most competent

01:01:11.380 --> 01:01:13.659
of policemen I mean we find I would find it hard

01:01:13.659 --> 01:01:16.420
to imagine Germans being used by the Soviets

01:01:16.420 --> 01:01:21.659
or the British to sort of like Hold on to things

01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:24.920
there after you know after after we occupied

01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.199
Germany We had to run the place and so yeah We

01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:29.420
took some of like the minor Nazi officials the

01:01:29.420 --> 01:01:31.639
mayor's and things and had them keep running

01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:33.960
the cities because we needed someone to do it

01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:36.000
And things like that we would do that but the

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:38.579
idea wars over arm. Yeah, the war is over but

01:01:38.579 --> 01:01:41.349
armed soldiers During the war. Yeah who you've

01:01:41.349 --> 01:01:42.769
taken prisoner and putting them in charge of

01:01:42.769 --> 01:01:44.809
part of your here go shoot a communist Have you

01:01:44.809 --> 01:01:47.590
seen any communists go go get them is a pretty

01:01:47.590 --> 01:01:50.010
bizarre idea. I yes I think we've beaten out

01:01:50.010 --> 01:01:52.309
to death But uh, it's it it is a bizarre idea

01:01:52.309 --> 01:01:54.510
and of course the research that I did for this

01:01:54.510 --> 01:01:59.239
podcast I I want to try to present not necessarily

01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:02.599
excuse this idea of Chang as one of the four

01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:05.719
policemen, but kind of there are there is scholarly

01:02:05.719 --> 01:02:09.139
work that has been done on this, some of which

01:02:09.139 --> 01:02:12.059
was actually presented at the at the Roosevelt

01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:15.519
Presidential Museum as part of their lecture

01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:19.280
series a few years ago. But one of the assessments

01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:24.039
was that Roosevelt was very much an anti -imperialist.

01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:27.420
If anything, he wanted to see the end of the

01:02:27.340 --> 01:02:30.059
European empires. And that is, I mean, he was

01:02:30.059 --> 01:02:33.280
willing to sort of go along with having the British,

01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:35.300
because the British controlled one quarter of

01:02:35.300 --> 01:02:37.320
the earth's surface at the time, for crying out

01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:42.900
loud, and also the Soviets. But he didn't have

01:02:42.900 --> 01:02:48.099
someone who wasn't European. And China is really

01:02:48.099 --> 01:02:52.619
the only non -European power that he could reach

01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:55.170
out to. I mean it's either you know there there

01:02:55.170 --> 01:02:57.570
are precious few when the world has been carved

01:02:57.570 --> 01:03:02.050
up. So out of necessity he's looking at Chang

01:03:02.050 --> 01:03:06.769
as being almost like a poster child for anti

01:03:06.769 --> 01:03:09.469
-imperialism as a kind of counterbalance to say

01:03:09.469 --> 01:03:14.849
like Britain in particular and could be used

01:03:14.849 --> 01:03:19.409
to counter any sort of other European imperialist

01:03:19.409 --> 01:03:33.530
power in the post -war world. Far be it for me

01:03:33.530 --> 01:03:36.190
to dispute people who've done scholarly research

01:03:36.190 --> 01:03:39.889
on FDR's motivations, right? But I just think

01:03:39.889 --> 01:03:42.090
there's a whole conversation to be had there

01:03:42.090 --> 01:03:46.869
in the sense that Roosevelt clearly had an idea

01:03:46.869 --> 01:03:49.989
that culminated in the United Nations, right,

01:03:50.190 --> 01:03:53.210
being formed after his death, but the idea of

01:03:53.210 --> 01:03:56.289
collective security. the idea that instead of

01:03:56.289 --> 01:03:58.309
having all these world wars again, we'd have

01:03:58.309 --> 01:04:00.090
everybody working together on the same side to

01:04:00.090 --> 01:04:04.550
contain threats and all of that. He had that.

01:04:05.269 --> 01:04:07.010
I don't want to say it was completely unsuccessful.

01:04:07.250 --> 01:04:09.130
The United Nations has accomplished some things,

01:04:09.250 --> 01:04:11.429
but it wasn't what he envisioned. It turns out

01:04:11.429 --> 01:04:12.949
countries all look out for their own interests.

01:04:14.010 --> 01:04:15.389
They might ally with each other for collective

01:04:15.389 --> 01:04:16.969
security, but they're still looking out for themselves.

01:04:18.030 --> 01:04:21.210
I just wonder how much of it is his... I mean

01:04:21.210 --> 01:04:24.230
he seemed to have an idealistic, you know, almost

01:04:24.230 --> 01:04:26.409
naive view of what the post -war world would

01:04:26.409 --> 01:04:30.349
be like. Yes. I mean, you look at Wilson fighting,

01:04:30.349 --> 01:04:32.690
you know, with World War I and the 14 points,

01:04:32.710 --> 01:04:34.449
and we were going to create this whole new world,

01:04:34.489 --> 01:04:36.230
you know, make it safe for democracy. We talked

01:04:36.230 --> 01:04:37.929
about that in the America First series. And the

01:04:37.929 --> 01:04:39.710
League of Nations. Yeah. The League of Nations.

01:04:39.889 --> 01:04:42.070
Which he tried. Which then we didn't join. Yeah.

01:04:42.409 --> 01:04:44.690
And it also failed. But I mean, I kind of see

01:04:44.690 --> 01:04:46.469
some of that again in Roosevelt. You know, here

01:04:46.469 --> 01:04:51.539
he is. He's... He wants to have this world with

01:04:51.539 --> 01:04:53.940
collective security and an end to all these wars.

01:04:54.820 --> 01:04:57.139
He picks four countries. Of course, the United

01:04:57.139 --> 01:04:59.579
States being under him would be the obvious choice.

01:04:59.780 --> 01:05:01.920
In fact, probably this was the idea of a lot

01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:03.559
of Americans and what we were creating in World

01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:05.880
War II. Probably, you know, he's reflecting that

01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:09.420
view. But that's uniquely American. You know,

01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:13.539
he's against imperialism, as you're saying. But

01:05:13.539 --> 01:05:16.190
he includes the British Empire. Now the British

01:05:16.190 --> 01:05:18.389
are closest to us politically and culturally

01:05:18.389 --> 01:05:21.409
and in many ways I get that part of it But when

01:05:21.409 --> 01:05:23.150
you look at especially towards the end of World

01:05:23.150 --> 01:05:26.530
War two The British are fighting to maintain

01:05:26.530 --> 01:05:29.670
and protect and restore that pre -war Empire

01:05:29.670 --> 01:05:31.849
that they had and a lot of their operations are

01:05:31.849 --> 01:05:34.530
designed to do exactly that And we were saying

01:05:34.530 --> 01:05:35.909
to them. We're not gonna help you restore your

01:05:35.909 --> 01:05:37.690
empire You know, we're gonna go fight the Germans

01:05:37.690 --> 01:05:41.010
and the Japanese and finish that off You know,

01:05:41.030 --> 01:05:44.840
they had different war games than than than Roosevelt

01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:46.480
did, than the United States did, in that sense.

01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:48.980
There were some overlapping ones, but they did

01:05:48.980 --> 01:05:51.920
not, there was a total... Many overlapping ones,

01:05:51.940 --> 01:05:54.219
but there was still not a total convergence of

01:05:54.219 --> 01:05:55.739
views on the post -war world. Which is kind of

01:05:55.739 --> 01:05:58.360
what sentimentalists like to pretend there was.

01:05:58.420 --> 01:06:01.000
Yeah, so there's that. The Soviet Union, need

01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:03.380
we point out, need we point out that they were

01:06:03.380 --> 01:06:05.480
not... He included the Soviet Union! Yeah, you

01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:08.380
know, that we and now those, the Soviets, the

01:06:08.380 --> 01:06:10.139
Russians, you know, we're simpatico now because

01:06:10.139 --> 01:06:12.059
we fought that same terrible, you know, fascist

01:06:12.059 --> 01:06:14.159
enemy and now we're going to cooperate. That's

01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:16.119
completely fanciful, as anybody who's aware that

01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:20.159
a Cold War happened would know. And then we come

01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:22.179
to China, and that's the whole point of what

01:06:22.179 --> 01:06:24.719
we're talking about here, but China, really?

01:06:24.780 --> 01:06:28.300
Come on. I guess what I'm trying to get at when

01:06:28.300 --> 01:06:31.980
I say that is Americans, not just FDR, and we

01:06:31.980 --> 01:06:34.539
talked about this, just have this idea of China

01:06:34.539 --> 01:06:38.059
as being, they have this idealized idea of China.

01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:41.719
It comes up over and over and over again in US

01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:44.519
history. and according to your research, Marshall,

01:06:44.539 --> 01:06:46.500
all the way back to the very beginning. To the

01:06:46.500 --> 01:06:48.139
very beginning. You know, we're looking at China

01:06:48.139 --> 01:06:49.599
this way, and Roosevelt is no different. Now

01:06:49.599 --> 01:06:51.460
he's doing that again. China will be one of the

01:06:51.460 --> 01:06:54.199
four policemen. It'll be this, apparently, you

01:06:54.199 --> 01:06:56.199
know, a model democracy in East Asia. I gotta

01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:58.309
have an Asian one. Obviously that's gonna be

01:06:58.309 --> 01:07:01.010
I gotta have somebody who's who's not white who's

01:07:01.010 --> 01:07:03.030
not white in this and and you know They're gonna

01:07:03.030 --> 01:07:04.929
they're gonna be an effective thing. They're

01:07:04.929 --> 01:07:06.730
gonna be one of the four policemen. Yeah, it

01:07:06.730 --> 01:07:09.670
I mean he did not I don't think that he would

01:07:09.670 --> 01:07:12.489
assume that China was gonna be as capable as

01:07:12.489 --> 01:07:15.809
the United States or even the British but it's

01:07:15.809 --> 01:07:19.269
like so this is kind of like I need to have somebody

01:07:19.269 --> 01:07:24.210
and I've kind of run out of countries that aren't

01:07:24.190 --> 01:07:27.489
Somebody else's colonies or an adversary and

01:07:27.489 --> 01:07:29.849
I and I get that idea, right? But I also have

01:07:29.849 --> 01:07:31.869
to wonder how much of it is that in Roosevelt

01:07:31.869 --> 01:07:33.809
and I have no idea what the answer is How much

01:07:33.809 --> 01:07:37.030
of it is that? Fairly cynical maybe is too strong

01:07:37.030 --> 01:07:38.809
a word, but but more cynical view. I need to

01:07:38.809 --> 01:07:41.510
have a non -white Country involved in this somehow.

01:07:41.849 --> 01:07:44.570
Okay, maybe you do. Yeah, that's not exactly

01:07:44.570 --> 01:07:46.389
idealistic It's just that I need to find myself

01:07:46.389 --> 01:07:48.329
a non -white country. I know I'll pick China

01:07:48.489 --> 01:07:50.750
There's that because that's the only one I got

01:07:50.750 --> 01:07:53.489
it's only one I got but then also there just

01:07:53.489 --> 01:07:56.630
is this issue of this Idealized idea of China

01:07:56.630 --> 01:07:59.469
that seems to infect so many Americans that seems

01:07:59.469 --> 01:08:02.849
to fit to me with his overall worldview his idealized

01:08:02.849 --> 01:08:04.590
view of what World War two is gonna culminate

01:08:04.590 --> 01:08:06.829
in in the post -war world and it's so I don't

01:08:06.829 --> 01:08:10.070
think you can just sell short that that that

01:08:10.070 --> 01:08:14.070
it was as Much his idealism about all of this

01:08:14.070 --> 01:08:16.850
and fanciful view of China as it was any more

01:08:17.100 --> 01:08:19.279
practical notion of trying to get a non -white

01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:22.699
country involved. Yeah. Am I wrong to say that?

01:08:22.840 --> 01:08:25.159
Do the scholars who looked at this contradict

01:08:25.159 --> 01:08:28.159
me completely? If they so, then I defer to them,

01:08:28.220 --> 01:08:32.079
but I mean, I can't quite see it. I'm not necessarily,

01:08:32.579 --> 01:08:36.260
and they're not necessarily saying that this

01:08:36.260 --> 01:08:40.960
is a good idea, but this is his idea, if that

01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:43.000
makes any sense, if that distinction. I'm questioning

01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:45.649
how much it's his idea. I'm making a more basic

01:08:45.649 --> 01:08:47.869
question. Was that really his idea? That really

01:08:47.869 --> 01:08:49.869
was his idea. Or was it really that he had this

01:08:49.869 --> 01:08:52.630
idealized idea of China and this idealized idea

01:08:52.630 --> 01:08:54.710
of the post -war world and the two of them converged

01:08:54.710 --> 01:08:56.270
to mean China would be one of the four policemen?

01:08:56.270 --> 01:08:59.170
Yes. That's a different answer to the question

01:08:59.170 --> 01:09:01.310
than saying, oh, he wanted to have a non -Asian

01:09:01.310 --> 01:09:03.189
country as one of his four policemen. Well, I

01:09:03.189 --> 01:09:05.310
would say that... Perhaps both are true? I think

01:09:05.310 --> 01:09:08.869
both are true. Okay. I think both are true in

01:09:08.869 --> 01:09:10.989
this case. I just wonder if he would have picked

01:09:10.989 --> 01:09:15.520
China if... He'd had a more realistic view of

01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:18.100
what China was. Well in the end we ended up picking

01:09:18.100 --> 01:09:22.399
Japan Because that's what happened That's another

01:09:22.399 --> 01:09:24.300
story. That's another story. That is another

01:09:24.300 --> 01:09:27.119
story US and Japan. So let's push on I just I

01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:28.699
just think that that there's a conversation we

01:09:28.699 --> 01:09:31.720
had there and I mean Roosevelt is also approaching

01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:34.439
this with you know Roosevelt had like a kind

01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:39.380
of mixture between Wilsonian idealism and Roosevelt

01:09:39.380 --> 01:09:45.010
Teddy Roosevelt Realism so there is there is

01:09:45.010 --> 01:09:48.430
a famous incident in which Roosevelt is trying

01:09:48.430 --> 01:09:50.909
to make sure that French Indochina does does

01:09:50.909 --> 01:09:56.050
not become French So he offers Indochina Vietnam

01:09:56.050 --> 01:09:59.770
to Vietnam Cambodia and Laos. Yeah, or what we're

01:09:59.770 --> 01:10:03.270
what yes now Yeah, or what French Indochina is

01:10:03.270 --> 01:10:06.470
now. Yes. Yeah. Well Laos was Laos was no garden

01:10:06.470 --> 01:10:11.039
paradise either Cambodia was Okay, until we screwed

01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:14.579
it up under Nixon with with the bombing of that

01:10:14.579 --> 01:10:19.640
that took away Cambodia's neutrality He did offer

01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:23.590
the Chinese Indochina to take over after the

01:10:23.590 --> 01:10:25.670
war, to go within their sphere of influence.

01:10:25.770 --> 01:10:27.970
And when we start getting to spheres of influence,

01:10:28.029 --> 01:10:30.609
we're definitely talking about something that

01:10:30.609 --> 01:10:33.750
is not idealistic. We're dealing with something

01:10:33.750 --> 01:10:38.270
that is more balance of power, spheres of influence.

01:10:38.409 --> 01:10:40.829
This is this is totally, totally different animal.

01:10:41.189 --> 01:10:44.149
Now, to Chang's credit. And historically, historically,

01:10:44.289 --> 01:10:46.229
those, you know, what is now Vietnam had been

01:10:46.229 --> 01:10:50.430
on the kingdoms of Anam. Yes. Cochin or Cochin,

01:10:50.550 --> 01:10:54.260
China. Yeah. Which had been tributaries of the

01:10:54.260 --> 01:10:56.699
Chinese Empire for a long time that it might

01:10:56.699 --> 01:10:58.739
have resented it, but they were this was not

01:10:58.739 --> 01:11:02.079
Ho Chi Minh's vision in fact Ho Chi Minh actually

01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:04.859
preferred the French to take over after the war

01:11:04.859 --> 01:11:07.819
because he said I'd rather smell French shit

01:11:07.819 --> 01:11:11.359
for 10 years than smell Chinese shit forever

01:11:11.359 --> 01:11:14.399
He was an earthy man apparently. Yes, but that

01:11:14.399 --> 01:11:16.640
was that was that was his rationale. He figured

01:11:17.050 --> 01:11:20.250
I can defeat the French easily, much more easily

01:11:20.250 --> 01:11:23.789
than I can having to deal with China having control

01:11:23.789 --> 01:11:26.850
over what I want to be my country here. And he

01:11:26.850 --> 01:11:30.770
was right. And he was right. As he did in a lot

01:11:30.770 --> 01:11:34.329
of other circumstances, we can probably say FDR

01:11:34.329 --> 01:11:37.869
is overconfident in his ability to persuade leaders

01:11:37.869 --> 01:11:42.050
to serve as effective instruments for the cause

01:11:42.050 --> 01:11:47.250
of building a post -Cold War world. One of the

01:11:47.250 --> 01:11:52.170
things that I think blinded FDR is his grandfather's

01:11:52.170 --> 01:11:55.390
involvement in the China trade. As we've mentioned,

01:11:56.409 --> 01:12:02.569
FDR's mother's father was totally enmeshed in

01:12:02.569 --> 01:12:05.930
selling opium, which was legal in the United

01:12:05.930 --> 01:12:09.750
States at the time. And if you go through his

01:12:09.750 --> 01:12:12.310
house at Hyde Park, there's all sorts of remnants

01:12:12.310 --> 01:12:16.739
of this China trade, which his mother, who actually

01:12:16.739 --> 01:12:19.699
lived in Hong Kong for a while, had managed to

01:12:19.699 --> 01:12:22.659
collect and maintain hair. He did fancy himself

01:12:22.659 --> 01:12:26.119
a China hand, but I don't think that he really

01:12:26.119 --> 01:12:29.119
was. I think this is a matter of overconfidence,

01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:33.039
something that we also see happening with him

01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:35.720
and Stalin, where he figures he can persuade

01:12:35.720 --> 01:12:39.000
dear old Uncle Joe to live up to his agreements

01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:43.710
and promote democracy. To get back to what China

01:12:43.710 --> 01:12:47.090
represented, he felt like having China on board

01:12:47.090 --> 01:12:50.449
as one of the four policemen's, and this is,

01:12:50.930 --> 01:12:53.829
according to scholarly research, that this would

01:12:53.829 --> 01:12:56.829
provide an international sense of racial equality

01:12:56.829 --> 01:13:01.350
in a post -Cold War settlement. Again, reflecting

01:13:01.350 --> 01:13:04.949
his opposition to the kind of imperial systems

01:13:04.949 --> 01:13:09.909
that existed up through World War II. He needs

01:13:09.909 --> 01:13:13.659
to be commended for that. He is. There is a remarkable

01:13:13.659 --> 01:13:17.380
series on Roosevelt at war that kind of discusses

01:13:17.380 --> 01:13:21.439
where he clashes with Churchill is basically

01:13:21.439 --> 01:13:26.539
over this matter of whether it's going to happen

01:13:26.539 --> 01:13:30.420
to the... To the empires. It's the war about

01:13:30.420 --> 01:13:35.060
returning things to status quo ante or is it

01:13:35.060 --> 01:13:38.979
about? Building a new world and he wants a new

01:13:38.979 --> 01:13:41.680
world and he wants like like like I said the

01:13:41.680 --> 01:13:43.520
the European You know the French the British

01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:46.220
were trying to restore their empires The Dutch

01:13:46.220 --> 01:13:47.699
too for that matter they're back in and fought

01:13:47.699 --> 01:13:49.720
in in the Netherlands East Indies now Indonesia

01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:50.960
to restore that I mean they were all trying to

01:13:50.960 --> 01:13:54.100
get their empires back. Yes after the war that

01:13:54.100 --> 01:13:58.260
we we did not care about that or support it But

01:13:58.260 --> 01:13:59.960
we also covered over the fact that sometimes

01:13:59.960 --> 01:14:02.760
what they were doing in their choices of fighting

01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:05.420
late in the war were focused more on that than

01:14:05.420 --> 01:14:07.180
it was on what we would have preferred. Well,

01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:10.399
you know, Theodore White, who we will get into

01:14:10.399 --> 01:14:15.380
shortly, he published his memoirs in the late

01:14:15.380 --> 01:14:18.720
70s about what it was like to be a correspondent

01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:24.579
over in Asia during this period. He was appalled

01:14:24.579 --> 01:14:28.180
by some of the things that the French did, just

01:14:28.180 --> 01:14:31.020
as a matter of fact, in what became Vietnam.

01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:34.500
He would go on vacations to Hanoi and places

01:14:34.500 --> 01:14:38.159
like that. And I'm not going to get into some

01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:41.000
of this stuff because it's not for family viewing,

01:14:41.420 --> 01:14:45.500
but it's kind of disgusting and appalling what

01:14:45.500 --> 01:14:49.680
they would do. So finally, the third thing, again,

01:14:50.100 --> 01:14:54.260
having China on board. as a partner would broaden

01:14:54.260 --> 01:14:58.079
the appeal of his vision for the future. I mean,

01:14:58.079 --> 01:15:00.399
it's interesting because there are all manner

01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:04.119
of freedom fighters that emerge after Roosevelt's

01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:08.140
death in some level of prominence that could

01:15:08.140 --> 01:15:11.939
probably have done just the same and kind of

01:15:11.939 --> 01:15:16.039
did. Nehru, for example. Of course, India is

01:15:16.039 --> 01:15:19.760
owned by the British. It's not that there's a

01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:22.720
problem with his method. The problem is with

01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:27.079
his choice Who he's actually choosing to do this

01:15:27.079 --> 01:15:31.800
and just how I I think he thinks that chang that

01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:35.159
chang is going to be more malleable than he actually

01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:39.180
is Well, also he Your research indicates he fancied

01:15:39.180 --> 01:15:41.399
himself to be a china hand. Yes because of his

01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:45.500
grandfather. Yes, uh work in china's sales of

01:15:45.500 --> 01:15:49.340
opium. Yeah, you know and and uh Yeah, and so

01:15:49.340 --> 01:15:52.140
you thought he had like a received wisdom Based

01:15:52.140 --> 01:15:54.220
on his grandfather's experience that that made

01:15:54.220 --> 01:15:56.199
him knowledgeable enough about China that to

01:15:56.199 --> 01:15:58.039
know what he was know what he was And there's

01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:00.319
a fallacy with this it doesn't mean you know

01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:04.659
I mean there are there are you know If that were

01:16:04.659 --> 01:16:07.380
the case I should be a mathematical genius on

01:16:07.380 --> 01:16:11.159
the basis of my of my of my father there You

01:16:11.159 --> 01:16:15.279
don't get this stuff by genetics here or osmosis

01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:18.920
or osmosis So we've kind of talked about people

01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:22.760
who had a positive view of Chiang Kai -shek and

01:16:22.760 --> 01:16:27.899
his role in World War II. There were even more

01:16:27.899 --> 01:16:31.880
stronger feelings about his lack of impact on

01:16:31.880 --> 01:16:36.560
the war and his ineffectiveness in dealing with

01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:39.340
the threat from the Japanese. Because this is

01:16:39.340 --> 01:16:42.300
kind of a big topic, we're going to cover this

01:16:42.300 --> 01:16:46.699
in our next episode where we'll focus on General

01:16:46.699 --> 01:16:49.579
Stillwell, who was Chiang Kai -shek's American

01:16:49.579 --> 01:16:52.760
advisor and chief of staff, but we'll also focus

01:16:52.760 --> 01:16:55.760
on some of the other naysayers for Chiang Kai

01:16:55.760 --> 01:16:59.300
-shek as well in that and also a subsequent episode.

01:17:01.640 --> 01:17:04.159
That's it for this episode of the United States

01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:07.239
of Amnesia. Thank you for listening. We hope

01:17:07.239 --> 01:17:09.359
you learned something and we hope you discovered

01:17:09.359 --> 01:17:11.619
new ways of looking at things you had already

01:17:11.619 --> 01:17:14.760
heard or thought about, or perhaps hadn't heard

01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:17.689
about. If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we

01:17:17.689 --> 01:17:21.270
made you mad, that's okay too. Either way, email

01:17:21.270 --> 01:17:25.590
us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know

01:17:25.590 --> 01:17:28.189
what you think. Also, let us know about anything

01:17:28.189 --> 01:17:30.510
you think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to

01:17:30.510 --> 01:17:33.770
know about that too. And of course, please like

01:17:33.770 --> 01:17:35.829
and subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

01:17:35.829 --> 01:17:39.529
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

01:17:39.529 --> 01:17:46.390
.usofamnesia .com For Marshall, Mike and myself,

01:17:46.710 --> 01:17:48.510
Blake Hanke. Till next time.