301: A Christian Nation? - The Founding Intent

WEBVTT

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment

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of religion or prohibiting the free exercise

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thereof. That's the First Amendment to the United

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States Constitution, and those are the very first

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words of the First Amendment, the Bill of Rights,

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written by Madison. The First Amendment goes

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on to talk about the things we're most familiar

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with, such as freedom of speech, the press, the

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right of people to peaceably assemble. and to

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petition the government for redress of grievances.

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But the very first line of the First Amendment

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has to do with religion and the prohibition against

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establishing any kind of state religion. Welcome

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to the United States of Amnesia. You found us.

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Thank you. We are the podcast that reminds us

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of what we have forgotten. It is often said...

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that history repeats itself. Mark Twain allegedly

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said that history doesn't repeat itself, but

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it rhymes. Ecclesiastes probably said it best

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in chapter 1, verse 9, quote, Everything that

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has been will be again. Everything that has been

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done will be done again. There is nothing new

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under the sun. Close quote. But over time, many

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topics have become clouded by biases and oversimplifications,

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or have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. Your hosts are Marshall

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Newman, Mike Mendenhall, and myself, Blake Henke.

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In this podcast, we will cover topics of history,

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politics, and religion, and how they interact,

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and also how they relate to modern day events

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and themes. We will try to cut through the biases,

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oversimplifications, and myths to learn better

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lessons from the past and to see what they can

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tell us about the present and maybe even the

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future. The question that we're going to debate

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today is, was the United States founded as a

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Christian nation? Was it intended to be a Christian

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nation? Is it a Christian nation today? Whether

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the U .S. is a Christian nation is the subject

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of intense political and social debate balancing

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cultural history against legal secularism. While

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a majority of Americans do identify as Christian,

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and many point to historical, cultural, and religious

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influences, On the nation's founding, the U .S.

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Constitution establishes a secular government

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that guarantees religious freedom and prohibits

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any state religion. Christian nationalist activists

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and right -wing television preachers often claim

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that the United States was founded to be a Christian

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nation. Even some politicians agree. Even some

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today agree to that. If the people who make this

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assertion were merely saying that most Americans

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are Christians, they might have a point. But

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those who argue that America is a Christian nation

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usually mean something more, insisting that the

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country should be officially Christian. Now what

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would officially Christian... That is a problematic

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definition because there is no quote -unquote

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Christian religion. There is Christianity, but

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then there's all sorts of different religions

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that ascribe to the principles or claim to ascribe

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to the principles of Christ and the teachings

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in the Bible and the church fathers, if you want

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to get into that. But it's kind of like Christianity

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is a big piece of territory, and it's kind of

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like... Let's just say you have at one end, you

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have people who practice and preach liberation

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theology, and this is a certain approach that

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you find among Jesuits and Jesuits Catholics,

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or even things that we're getting from the Pope

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right now. And then you get fundamentalists who

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like to go around handling snakes and insist

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that, you know, Christianity is... The Pentecostals.

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Yes. Yes, the Pentecostals. But... They find

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ways to find spiritual satisfaction. There's

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no universal notion of Christianity, and I would

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argue that kind of the secular approach that

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we took was to kind of defang that to prevent,

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okay, if we're Christian, then what kind of Christian

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are we? Are we high church Episcopalians, or

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are we running around and speaking in tongues

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here? They are different approaches, very different

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brands, and it's like, I don't see how you could

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come up with a brand that would satisfy everybody

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and not offend somebody by exclusion of certain...

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Well, and in fact, that's a problem that the

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Church of England experienced. Yes. There were

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all different groups of people that wanted to

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worship in different ways and thought the church

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was doing it the wrong way, which led to some

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of the colonies actually being founded that we'll

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get to in a minute. And the English Civil War.

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Okay. And also, if we want to, you know, the

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founding fathers actually were very much aware

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of recent European history, say going back 100

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years. Thirty Years' War, which was basically

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about religion in Europe. And it was kind of

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devastating, and they were aware of the cost

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that these type of conflicts, once they become

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something that's left up to armies and people

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disputing matters with weapons and things, can

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get pretty ugly pretty quick. And this all dates

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back, what you're talking about there, Marshall,

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is the 1600s, right? Yes, roughly 1618 to 1648.

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The 1648 was the Thirty Years' War. Yes. And

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the English Civil War was in the 1640s. It ran

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along the same time period. They overlap. Went

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a little bit longer. Went a little bit later.

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I mean, if you really want to get into it, probably

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the English Civil War, in one fashion or another,

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persisted. until really the glorious revolution

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of 1688 when Parliament's supremacy was actually

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established once and for all over in Britain.

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Yeah, but we're talking about the 1600s is my

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point. That's the era that you're talking about.

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And this impacts the founding fathers. They are

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aware that this has happened. People have come

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over to America to escape this sort of thing.

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So as a result... They want to avoid this. This

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is something they see as an object lesson to

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avoid and to try to prevent from happening and

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affecting outcomes in the United States. From

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their point of view, this had happened 100 to

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150 years earlier. Yes. Which is about the same

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time back to our Civil War, let's say, right?

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It was 150 or so years ago. So that gives you

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a time frame to think about how immediate this

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was to them. A lot of the sort of political doctrines

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that come out that the Founding Fathers are ascribing

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to are going to be generated by this contest,

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which begins with attempts to kind of standardize

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religious practices throughout the United Kingdom,

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or Great Britain as it was called then. Well,

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and so, Marshall, you've talked about... which

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denomination or creed or sect or whatever you

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want to call it. Or just style of worship. Style

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of worship would be official, is a problem. Smells

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and bells or snakes. But we can also take it

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further than that, right? I mean, you have obviously

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the schism between Catholicism and Protestantism

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and Orthodox too, right? To a lot of people,

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this makes a big difference. Some of them question

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the true Christianity of the other main groups,

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shall we say, religious groups within Christianity.

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There's that. Are Mormons Christian? A lot of

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Christians would say Mormons are not. Mormons

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would say, well, yes, we are. So are they part

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of the state religion or are they not? That's

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another thing that there'd be a broad disagreement

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on probably. Do we need to suppress them then

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if they're not part of the state religion? Well,

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I mean, and we didn't really answer Blake's question

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yet. Blake's question was, what does the establishment

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of a state religion? What would it mean to have

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to be officially Christian? And what Marshall

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is asking right there starts to get into that

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aspect of it. I think that's the problem. Once

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you do identify what you mean by Christianity,

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that's fraught, but okay. Let's say you do, okay?

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Then what happens? What does that then imply

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for the way civic society works? Not just religion,

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but civic society works. So if you have a state

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religion, it seems to me, jump in and tell me

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where I'm wrong here, but one aspect clearly

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would be, the government probably would fund

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it. Definitely if it's established. Right? If

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it's an established church. The government would

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take, in a sense, take policy guidance from it.

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Yes. Like Iran. Either directly or indirectly

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in some way. Like Iran. But, you know, I mean,

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you wouldn't have, since you have a state religion,

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you wouldn't have the government doing something

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that the church said a government shouldn't do.

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Almost by definition. It has to follow the dictates

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of its established church. So that would be another

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implication of having a state religion. It would

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work outside of laws, because you would have

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kind of like a council of elders, to use a good

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term from the Iranian system, that basically

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tells you what you're allowed to do or not do.

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There's a higher law than your civic laws that

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you pass, and there's a higher law that we have

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to also obey. That would have to be woven into

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the texture of... Of your governance of your

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country. And there is no constitutional provision

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for this body to exist that could adjudicate

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what is right, what is wrong, what is Christian,

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what is not. That you would have to create that

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in order for that to happen. Yes. And you'd have,

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and like, well, and like you were saying, you'd

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have to determine if you don't have this higher

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body, you either have to create one. Yeah. Somehow,

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extra constitutionally, you'd have to create

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one. I think you would have to pass an amendment

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to the Constitution in order to have this body.

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I think so, too. For it to have any authority.

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I think so, too, right? There's that. And then

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you'd have to decide how to staff it. Yeah. Who

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would be on it. Yeah. Which then brings us back

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to which is the— Who selects it. Right? That's

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a good one, too. Which brings us back to all

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the complexities of which sect, which denomination,

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which creed are we going to pick. And then to

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move on to the 14th— Or creeds. Could be more

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than one, I guess. The 14th Amendment. If you're

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going to restrict, say, selection for the Council

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of Elders, as we're calling it, for term of convenience,

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does that mean that only Christians get to vote?

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Does that mean that basically if you are not

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a Christian, if you're Jewish, you don't get

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to vote in this election because, you know, your

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religion is the wrong religion? It does. And

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under the 14th Amendment, everybody is equal

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under the law. So they would have, they would.

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You can't create something that does not have

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status and restrict the voting to just a group

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of people, albeit the majority of the people

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in the country, but they don't all follow the

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same tenets and beliefs. Yeah, I mean, you know,

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can Jews vote? Can Muslims vote? Can Buddhists

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vote? Can atheists vote? Yeah. You know, I...

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Can Unitarians vote? I don't know. I mean, all

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these questions come up. Well, are Unitarians

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and Mormons considered Christians then? Because

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if you're Unitarian, you do not believe in the

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Trinity. If you're a Mormon, you have a book

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that is meant to be an addition to the Bible.

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that other people do not recognize as a sacred

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text. And you have a prophet that they don't

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recognize as a prophet. Exactly. You know, another

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implication would be then, you'd have to have

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taxes supporting the church, I assume. The government

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would fund the church. Now, so, if Christianity

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is the state religion, again, whatever that means,

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but let's say it is, so do Jews have to pay a

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tax to support Christianity? Do Muslims have

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to? Do atheists have to? Maybe they might have

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to pay an extra tax because they're not Christian.

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I would think they would have to pay. I mean,

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you know, in Muslim countries where you had,

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you know, they did not have persecution of different

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religious groups, but they did have a tax if

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you were Christian, if you were Jewish or something

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else that was levied against you in order to.

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encourage you to maybe convert to Muslim faith.

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And I mean, just imagine if we have an established

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church, wouldn't it be nice if we could just

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bring all these atheists to God so we'll just

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tax the bejesus out of them until they basically,

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you know, get the water sprinkled over their

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heads, you know. So yeah, the idea of doing this

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presents all sorts of difficulties, and I would

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argue and I would question what what are we getting

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out of this? What are we actually going to get

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out of this? How does this make us a better country?

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And maybe we might want to come back to this

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at the end of our series here, but I would put

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that out there as, what exactly are you gaining

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if you insist on orthodoxy? Has this ever worked

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out well for anybody in the past? Well, you're

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making the point for me, which is what the founding

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fathers did ultimately decide, which was to should

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not have an established religion. And I just

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took the liberty here of taking a look at the

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Wikipedia article on state religion. And in the

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first paragraph, it describes aspects quickly

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of what a state religion is, what the aspects

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of it are. It is a religion or creed officially

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endorsed by a sovereign state, a state with an

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official religion, also known as a confessional

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state. I had not heard that before. While not

00:14:29.889 --> 00:14:32.730
a secular state, it's not necessarily a theocracy.

00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:36.620
State religions are subject to advantageous treatment

00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:39.500
by official or government -sanctioned establishments

00:14:39.500 --> 00:14:42.039
of them, ranging from incentivizing citizens

00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.539
to recognize and practice them through government

00:14:44.539 --> 00:14:47.240
endorsement, to having public spending on the

00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:48.940
maintenance of religious property and clergy

00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:51.700
be unrestricted. But the state does not need

00:14:51.700 --> 00:14:53.299
to be under the legislative control of the clergy,

00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.379
as it would be in a theocracy. Generally, the

00:14:56.379 --> 00:14:58.679
state religion has more rights and fewer restrictions

00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.000
in the country than other religions do in the

00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.009
country. So we've touched on all these aspects,

00:15:03.129 --> 00:15:04.610
but that kind of summarizes what the implications

00:15:04.610 --> 00:15:06.629
of it are. Well, you see, and you know what's

00:15:06.629 --> 00:15:08.850
interesting about this? In countries that do

00:15:08.850 --> 00:15:14.049
have a state religion, You know, either in fact

00:15:14.049 --> 00:15:18.549
or historically. One of the things that you find

00:15:18.549 --> 00:15:21.629
from Americans who go over to these countries

00:15:21.629 --> 00:15:23.629
and are kind of like looking at this thing through

00:15:23.629 --> 00:15:26.470
their own lenses, they'll notice that except

00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:30.190
for days like Christmas and Easter or high holy

00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:34.269
days of one sort or another, there's sparse attendance.

00:15:34.730 --> 00:15:37.350
And so they basically assume that, okay, they're

00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:40.200
not religious. People are religious in these

00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:44.399
countries. They just don't feel compelled. There

00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.259
is a certain sense that Lutheranism in Scandinavian

00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:50.500
countries is always there, always with you. You

00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:52.340
don't necessarily need to show up every week.

00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.399
Here, where you do not have an established religion,

00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.700
where people are kind of at liberty to do what

00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:01.759
they like, church attendance, even though it's

00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.539
on the decline, is still much higher than what

00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:06.379
you find over in Europe. countries where there

00:16:06.379 --> 00:16:09.399
is an established religion. You know, you and

00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:12.100
I, Mike, when we were in Italy, we would see

00:16:12.100 --> 00:16:14.919
this in churches. Most of the people in there

00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.720
were tourists when we were there. Well, and in

00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:19.860
Europe, I've seen this in the Netherlands and

00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:22.559
in Italy where it, I think I saw it in Scotland

00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.100
too, where there's churches which have been converted

00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:29.039
into discos and things and bars because they

00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.600
went out of business as a church. Yeah. I mean,

00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:34.419
the whole thing about religion in Europe versus

00:16:34.419 --> 00:16:37.700
religion in the United States is fraught because

00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:41.639
my understanding of the sociopolitical background

00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.559
of it is that World War I really destroyed a

00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:49.799
lot of European people's faith in religious belief.

00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:52.559
Because marching off to World War I in 1914,

00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.240
they were told, you know, God's on your side

00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.039
and, you know, the march of civilization, et

00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.659
cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it was such

00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:04.000
a destructive, awful war. It destroyed 19th century

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.380
culture, the 19th century idea of all this hundred

00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:10.119
plus years of societal and technological advancement.

00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.240
It led to this horrible disaster in the mud of

00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.799
the trenches and such. And after that, you really

00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.619
wound up with a sharp decline in religiosity

00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:22.819
in Europe. That did not happen in the United

00:17:22.819 --> 00:17:25.579
States. And so as a result, the United States

00:17:25.579 --> 00:17:27.660
has remained a much more religious country or

00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.609
has become. a much more religious country over

00:17:30.609 --> 00:17:34.769
time than European countries are. It dates back

00:17:34.769 --> 00:17:36.990
to a little over 100 years ago with the experience

00:17:36.990 --> 00:17:39.009
of World War I. That's my understanding. There

00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:42.650
is some points to that, and to be honest, among

00:17:42.650 --> 00:17:45.369
European intellectuals, the reason why the Bolshevik

00:17:45.369 --> 00:17:47.730
Revolution resonated was like here was something

00:17:47.730 --> 00:17:51.089
good that actually came out of the war, and they

00:17:51.089 --> 00:17:53.589
would... They would defend this even in the face

00:17:53.589 --> 00:17:57.210
of disasters and people like Stalin. Okay, this

00:17:57.210 --> 00:18:00.410
is the great hope for working people. Now, I

00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:03.849
will tell you this, though. I have a book which

00:18:03.849 --> 00:18:07.809
basically talks about some of the stranger tropes

00:18:07.809 --> 00:18:10.690
that came out of World War I as far as religiosity

00:18:10.690 --> 00:18:14.890
went, where people imagine it eeps seeing archers

00:18:14.890 --> 00:18:17.750
from... Agincourt show up to defend the British.

00:18:18.009 --> 00:18:21.150
The Angels of Mons. The Angels of Mons, yes.

00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:26.910
There is that that happens as well in conjunction

00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:30.029
with increased secularization. There's this myth

00:18:30.029 --> 00:18:33.470
-making stuff. And people, even who were there,

00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.900
would insist that they saw things, miraculous

00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:39.740
things, happening during World War I. We probably

00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:41.880
don't want to get into this, save this for another

00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.299
topic or another show, but I would say you have

00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:47.279
two things happening at the same time during

00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.259
that. Well, you do, but I mean, I think the bottom

00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:51.059
line is, is that over the last hundred years

00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.599
or so, Europe and the United States have gone

00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:55.019
in separate directions, and that Europe has become

00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:58.200
much less religious, whereas the United States

00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.200
has retained a religiosity that used to exist

00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.440
in Europe, but largely has I'm not saying it's

00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:05.940
become extinct by any stretch of the imagination,

00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:08.480
but it's certainly not what it once was, and

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:11.819
it's a much less religious continent than it

00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:13.480
was prior to World War I. I think that's the

00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.920
main issue here. Well, I think that, and I would

00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.720
argue, though, the fact that religion is more

00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.819
like an open marketplace of ideas here as opposed

00:19:21.819 --> 00:19:24.980
to, like, something that the state sponsors has

00:19:24.980 --> 00:19:29.140
contributed to that. Well, sure, but, I mean,

00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:35.349
to me, the bigger point, though, is. while that's

00:19:35.349 --> 00:19:37.150
true, but I think that's a subset of just a broader

00:19:37.150 --> 00:19:39.150
issue. The United States has remained quite religious.

00:19:39.390 --> 00:19:41.450
No, I'm not disputing that. And that's compared

00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:44.230
to other Western countries, and I think that's

00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:45.529
a significant thing to consider. But the percentage

00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:49.529
of nuns, meaning people who profess no religious

00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:54.130
affinity, has grown. In the 21st century. More

00:19:54.130 --> 00:19:57.890
recently, yes. And I'm going to say, again going

00:19:57.890 --> 00:20:00.470
back to my point about about what it means when

00:20:00.470 --> 00:20:03.089
you have an established religion, that it actually

00:20:03.089 --> 00:20:22.509
hurts religion. It hurts the brand. Getting back

00:20:22.509 --> 00:20:25.349
to the main theme of our discussion, today we

00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.150
hear religious extremists and their allies insist

00:20:28.150 --> 00:20:31.289
that the United States was designed to be officially

00:20:31.289 --> 00:20:34.230
Christian and that our laws should enforce the

00:20:34.230 --> 00:20:38.670
doctrines of explicitly their version of Christianity.

00:20:39.309 --> 00:20:42.250
Is this viewpoint accurate? Is there anything

00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:44.349
in the Constitution that gives special treatment

00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:47.130
or preference to Christianity? Did the founders

00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:49.609
of our government believe this or intend to create

00:20:49.609 --> 00:20:52.289
a government that gave special recognition to

00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:55.009
Christianity? The answer to all these questions

00:20:55.009 --> 00:20:57.990
is no. The U .S. Constitution is a wholly secular

00:20:57.990 --> 00:21:01.230
document. It contains no mention of Christianity

00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:06.150
or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers

00:21:06.150 --> 00:21:08.750
to religion only twice in the First Amendment.

00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.299
which bars laws, quote, respecting an establishment

00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:15.200
of religion or prohibiting the free exercise

00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.640
thereof, close quote, and in Article 6, which

00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:22.099
prohibits religious tests for public office.

00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:25.539
Both of these provisions are evidence that the

00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:28.039
country was not founded to be officially Christian.

00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:31.420
One thing we might want to mention for our listeners

00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:36.349
here, religious tests. At the time, over in England

00:21:36.349 --> 00:21:39.170
and over in Europe, there was a requirement that

00:21:39.170 --> 00:21:44.029
if one held office, one would have to agree or

00:21:44.029 --> 00:21:46.730
submit proof that one was a member of the dominant

00:21:46.730 --> 00:21:52.799
religion. So in this case, say— For a number

00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:54.619
of years over in Britain, Jews could not be elected

00:21:54.619 --> 00:21:57.579
to parliament because they could not pass the

00:21:57.579 --> 00:22:00.880
religious tests to be able to go in as Christians.

00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:03.359
So that's what religious tests mean. It's not

00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.680
like you have to sit exams or something like

00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:10.380
that on religious matters to be qualified. Would

00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:12.019
you like to hear what the Kant argument is? Because

00:22:12.019 --> 00:22:14.539
I've heard it made. What? To what you were just

00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.160
saying about... Yeah, yes, let's hear the Kant

00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.539
argument. If you go on, say, YouTube, There are

00:22:20.539 --> 00:22:22.480
videos that are recorded where you'll have one,

00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:25.140
like, liberal person sit down at a table, and

00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:28.720
they'll be encircled by 20 or 30 conservative

00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.160
people who disagree with them. Then they come

00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:32.980
one to one at the table and sit there and debate

00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:34.740
with the liberal person. There's videos like

00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:37.980
that. Anyway, I saw one or two of these in which

00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:40.839
they were talking about religion in the United

00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.799
States, Christianity. And here's what the counterargument

00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:46.140
is to what you're saying, okay? And their counterargument

00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:49.440
is this. When the Founding Fathers... founded

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.440
the United States, their framework of understanding

00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.359
of religion was entirely Christian. I'm not saying

00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:57.519
this is accurate. I'm just saying this is what

00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.240
the counter -argument is, right? Was entirely

00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:02.279
Christian in nature. When they wrote down things

00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.559
using the word religion, they were only talking

00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.019
about Christianity. They were not talking about

00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:09.099
Judaism. They were not talking about Islam. They

00:23:09.099 --> 00:23:11.000
were not talking about Buddhism. They certainly

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.160
weren't talking about atheists. They were talking

00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:20.220
about Christianity. So whenever you see the Constitution

00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:24.019
talking about religion, it's talking actually

00:23:24.019 --> 00:23:26.180
about Christianity, and you should interpret

00:23:26.180 --> 00:23:28.619
it that way. That's what their corner argument

00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:32.339
is. Well, factually, that's not true. I'm not

00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:34.690
saying it's true. I'm saying it's what they think

00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:36.490
the Constitution says. That's their argument

00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:38.910
going in to say that what Blake just said is

00:23:38.910 --> 00:23:40.589
incorrect. We're going to cover some of that.

00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:42.549
I've always heard what Blake said as being correct.

00:23:42.589 --> 00:23:44.910
But I'm just saying that's the counter -argument

00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:48.230
I hear. It's ridiculous to think that the founding

00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:50.569
fathers had anybody other than Christians in

00:23:50.569 --> 00:23:53.170
mind when they wrote any of that. They also,

00:23:53.369 --> 00:23:56.930
these guys also insist that Moses, Moses is somehow

00:23:56.930 --> 00:24:00.529
a founder. of a founding father of the United

00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:03.890
States, which is ridiculous. Again, these kind

00:24:03.890 --> 00:24:05.450
of folks also have this idea that the United

00:24:05.450 --> 00:24:07.789
States is God's chosen country. He deliberately

00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:11.430
made it to carry forward his policies, his things

00:24:11.430 --> 00:24:13.210
he wants, whatever, you know, God's will on earth

00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:15.869
has much to do with the existence of the United

00:24:15.869 --> 00:24:17.869
States. And therefore it's founding, I guess,

00:24:17.890 --> 00:24:19.910
dates all the way back to Moses or however far

00:24:19.910 --> 00:24:21.509
back you want to take it. But that's another

00:24:21.509 --> 00:24:23.730
line of thinking here. But anyway. What do they

00:24:23.730 --> 00:24:28.250
do about Israel then? Leaving that aside, I mean,

00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:30.390
but that's their current argument is that you

00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:32.009
need to look all this through the prism of Christianity

00:24:32.009 --> 00:24:35.250
and nothing else. Most of the people that were

00:24:35.250 --> 00:24:39.630
here in the colonial times up until our founding

00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:44.829
were of some form of Christian background. That

00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:46.569
is actually true. We're going to go through that

00:24:46.569 --> 00:24:50.589
when we get to the colonies. But I think they

00:24:50.589 --> 00:24:53.849
explicitly set up a secular form of government

00:24:53.849 --> 00:24:56.470
to... deal with some of the problems that we've

00:24:56.470 --> 00:24:58.910
already covered. So, I mean, we can table that

00:24:58.910 --> 00:25:01.089
whole discussion for now. For now, yeah. And

00:25:01.089 --> 00:25:02.849
we'll get back into that later after we go through

00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:04.569
what you're going to go through. But I'm just

00:25:04.569 --> 00:25:07.309
saying that that's what the counter -argument

00:25:07.309 --> 00:25:08.970
that they make is, and that's the framework that

00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:11.009
they approach this from. Right. So there are

00:25:11.009 --> 00:25:16.890
a couple of references to God or religion. religion

00:25:16.890 --> 00:25:19.670
explicitly in the Constitution. There are four

00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:23.230
references to God or a creator in the Declaration

00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:27.130
of Independence. And I'm going to borrow here

00:25:27.130 --> 00:25:30.490
from a gentleman named Thomas Tweed, who wrote

00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:34.150
an article called What the Declaration of Independence

00:25:34.150 --> 00:25:38.490
Does and Does Not Say About God. The Second Continental

00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:41.390
Congress appointed a committee of five delegates

00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:44.039
to write the Declaration. Jefferson, the main

00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.180
author, penned the first draft in his rented

00:25:46.180 --> 00:25:49.180
room in central Philadelphia. John Adams and

00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:52.259
Ben Franklin offered suggestions before they

00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:54.579
sent the document to Congress for further revision

00:25:54.579 --> 00:25:59.220
and approval. Now, the document included 27 complaints

00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:02.500
against King George III and explained reasons

00:26:02.500 --> 00:26:07.460
for revolt. It used terms for God four times

00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:10.559
as it made its case. In its opening paragraph,

00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.220
Jefferson proposed that, quote, the laws of nature

00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:17.680
and of nature's God, end quote, grant humans

00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.500
equal status and entitle Americans to dissolve

00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:23.960
the political bands with Britain. As historians

00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:26.680
have shown, Franklin added a phrase to suggest

00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:29.839
that those rights have been, quote, endowed by

00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.400
their creator, end quote. Congressman added two

00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:35.900
phrases to the final paragraph that portray God

00:26:35.900 --> 00:26:39.880
as a moral judge. and a guiding hand. The delegates

00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.960
mention the supreme judge of the world who punishes

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.220
evil and rewards good, a description that almost

00:26:46.220 --> 00:26:48.519
all political and religious leaders would have

00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.000
agreed with at the time. They end by announcing

00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:55.019
that, quote, with a firm reliance on the projection

00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:59.000
of divine providence, we mutually pledge to each

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:01.339
other our lives, our fortune, and our sacred

00:27:01.339 --> 00:27:05.079
honor. So those are the references to God, providence.

00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.619
religion in the Declaration. And those references,

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.240
I would argue, are not exclusively Christian.

00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:15.880
For example, a Muslim would probably see God

00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:20.400
in much the same way as is portrayed there, or

00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:25.799
even a Buddhist could see the world working in

00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:30.140
that fashion, or someone who's Jewish. So even

00:27:30.140 --> 00:27:33.359
though you have references to God in this document

00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.839
written by people who are in some sense Christians,

00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.619
which we'll get into later as to how orthodox

00:27:39.619 --> 00:27:44.079
they might be, but this is still not something

00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.720
that cuts them off, cuts this off and marks it

00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.500
as exclusively a Christian doctrine or Christian

00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:55.400
document. that is being reflected in the Declaration

00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:58.380
of Independence. And this author, Thomas Tweed,

00:27:58.420 --> 00:28:00.799
does make exactly that point in the next paragraph.

00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.160
Oh, sorry. No, no, no. I wasn't going to read

00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.839
it. I'm glad you said it. The reference to providence

00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:09.359
doesn't specify how divine influence works. However,

00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.259
it leaves plenty of room for the founders, quote,

00:28:12.380 --> 00:28:14.779
diverging religious interpretations, which is

00:28:14.779 --> 00:28:18.059
what you're... Yeah, but it could be anybody

00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:21.160
else. It could be any other religion. I don't

00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:26.519
see that any other religion would have... difficulties

00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.380
with those words and say, I cannot support these

00:28:30.380 --> 00:28:34.299
notions because it goes against my religion if

00:28:34.299 --> 00:28:37.099
I'm a Muslim or if I'm Jewish or if I'm Buddhist

00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:40.559
or something else. Because most religions kind

00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.839
of would ascribe some sort of like divine presence

00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:49.000
to promote order in the world and justice and

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.740
so forth. And also the idea of a creator creating

00:28:52.740 --> 00:28:56.490
everything is Universal. Universal, I think,

00:28:56.490 --> 00:28:59.049
among religions, right? Unless you're an atheist,

00:28:59.150 --> 00:29:02.390
I think you think some deity, some force of some

00:29:02.390 --> 00:29:06.269
kind created everything you see around you. So

00:29:06.269 --> 00:29:09.109
it would not exclude, the idea of a creator would

00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:11.390
not exclude anyone either, any religious person.

00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:14.410
I mean, you could go, I would argue you might

00:29:14.410 --> 00:29:17.190
be able to go back to classical Greece and Rome,

00:29:17.269 --> 00:29:20.410
which actually did have a big... which would

00:29:20.410 --> 00:29:24.089
have as big an impact, I would say, on the founding

00:29:24.089 --> 00:29:26.930
fathers and their perceptions of the world as

00:29:26.930 --> 00:29:32.730
the Bible and tenets of Christianity in their

00:29:32.730 --> 00:29:36.529
worldview. And they would accept these statements

00:29:36.529 --> 00:29:38.509
that are in the Declaration of Independence as

00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:43.049
being valid. They would have an issue with, say,

00:29:43.089 --> 00:29:46.619
like natural rights. Which is an Enlightenment

00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:50.019
concept. It is not in the Bible, the idea of

00:29:50.019 --> 00:29:52.039
natural rights. This is Jean -Jacques Rousseau

00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:53.920
and the social contract here. We will get to

00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:56.140
that. Yes. We will get to that. Yes. But that's

00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:57.700
where that's coming from. It's not coming from

00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:00.259
the Bible. No. And the Declaration was actually

00:30:00.259 --> 00:30:03.819
read aloud in churches as part of the proclamation

00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:07.319
of it to the colonies. At the time. And that

00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:09.319
would be logical because that's where everybody

00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.700
showed up on Sunday. And you could get the largest

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:13.859
gathering of your village or town or something

00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:15.799
like that in a church. It's like television.

00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.849
Getting back to the original question. I would

00:30:36.849 --> 00:30:39.789
just say, and we've touched on this already to

00:30:39.789 --> 00:30:44.009
a degree, the answer to the question is a bit

00:30:44.009 --> 00:30:47.950
nuanced. It is true that the 13 colonies were

00:30:47.950 --> 00:30:50.950
founded largely by Christian settlers from England,

00:30:51.049 --> 00:30:55.670
mostly. Florida was settled by Spain, which was

00:30:55.670 --> 00:30:58.609
also a Christian nation. Canada was colonized

00:30:58.609 --> 00:31:01.849
by France and Great Britain, which were both

00:31:01.849 --> 00:31:05.009
Christian nations. There were not many Jews,

00:31:05.109 --> 00:31:08.170
if any. In the early colonies, there were not,

00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:10.910
if any, Muslims that I'm aware of. In the early

00:31:10.910 --> 00:31:13.750
colonies, there might have been some slaves who

00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:15.910
were picked up from somewhere that practiced

00:31:15.910 --> 00:31:22.130
Islam, but it was rare. Other religions were

00:31:22.130 --> 00:31:25.289
not seemingly represented at all. There were

00:31:25.289 --> 00:31:28.690
no Hindus that I'm aware of, or Sikhs, or Buddhists.

00:31:29.609 --> 00:31:32.289
So yes, the predominant population that started

00:31:32.289 --> 00:31:36.079
our country were of Christian descent. And of

00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.960
Judeo -Christian ideals. There would be small

00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.740
groups of Jews, but it kind of depends on what

00:31:42.740 --> 00:31:44.200
period you're talking about when you're talking

00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.880
about colonial America. But they did have settled

00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:49.779
populations, which is more than you could say

00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:51.619
for any other group that you're talking about,

00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:55.059
in places like Newport, New York, Charleston,

00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:59.210
Savannah. And after the revolution in Richmond.

00:31:59.470 --> 00:32:01.190
Well, I mean, like you said, that depends on

00:32:01.190 --> 00:32:02.430
when you're talking about it. Yeah, it does.

00:32:02.569 --> 00:32:05.210
So, I mean, I suppose in the early colonial period,

00:32:05.369 --> 00:32:07.890
I don't know what I mean by that, you know, 1600s,

00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:10.970
it'd be much rarer. Well, but 1600 is a whole

00:32:10.970 --> 00:32:13.750
century there. No, I know. But I'm saying somewhere

00:32:13.750 --> 00:32:16.309
in the 1600s, the earlier period there, right?

00:32:17.049 --> 00:32:19.869
you would probably have few to none. And then

00:32:19.869 --> 00:32:21.730
gradually there'd be settlements that would develop

00:32:21.730 --> 00:32:24.769
over time so that by later in the 1600s and 1700s,

00:32:24.769 --> 00:32:26.509
you would start to have Jewish communities. Say

00:32:26.509 --> 00:32:28.950
like when you bring in New York into the, you

00:32:28.950 --> 00:32:32.349
know, there were Jewish communities in the Netherlands

00:32:32.349 --> 00:32:37.349
that transferred to New York City or New Amsterdam

00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:40.940
as it was called then. So it just depends on

00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:42.920
when. So acknowledging that I don't know what

00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.240
I'm talking about when I discuss the Jewish presence

00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.940
in North America, I've taken the liberty of looking

00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:49.680
it up and seeing if the internet knows. So if

00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:51.539
it knows what it's talking about, it tells me

00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:54.440
that the Jewish presence in North America in

00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.180
what is now the United States began in September

00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:01.660
1654 with the arrival of 23 Sephardic Jewish

00:33:01.660 --> 00:33:04.380
refugees from Recife, Brazil in New Amsterdam,

00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.630
which is now New York City. That was the first

00:33:08.630 --> 00:33:10.730
organized Jewish community in the North American

00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:14.630
mainland. There may have been Jewish people who

00:33:14.630 --> 00:33:17.569
arrived before that, but there was no organized

00:33:17.569 --> 00:33:21.869
community that's known until 1654. And then after

00:33:21.869 --> 00:33:25.180
that... Jewish communities began to grow in major

00:33:25.180 --> 00:33:28.200
port cities. Yes. In Newport, Rhode Island, in

00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:30.500
Philadelphia, in Charleston, South Carolina,

00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.099
and in Savannah, Georgia, were noted communities.

00:33:33.339 --> 00:33:37.740
So there's your answer on the growth of Jewish

00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:41.299
communities in colonial America. Now, one thing

00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:45.920
to mention here, that during this period, during

00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:48.920
the colonial period, attempts were made to establish

00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:51.640
communities in places like Boston, and those

00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.410
were... That was rejected because there was a

00:33:55.410 --> 00:33:59.170
strong bias against this. This was not something

00:33:59.170 --> 00:34:01.769
that was necessarily favored to exist. Even though

00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:04.750
Boston is a big merchant city, it's not just

00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:06.529
merchant. It's like there's got to be a certain

00:34:06.529 --> 00:34:09.889
degree of acceptance of people who are Jewish

00:34:09.889 --> 00:34:19.369
to exist in these places. All right, so as we

00:34:19.369 --> 00:34:22.000
have... discussed quite a bit already. The United

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.880
States of America was not founded as a Christian

00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:27.480
nation. It was not intended to be a Christian

00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.840
nation. It was founded by people who were largely

00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.760
Christian of one stripe or another, but there

00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.280
was actually a very broad spectrum of belief.

00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.840
Thomas Jefferson, for one, was a deist. He believed

00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:43.159
that there was a master creator who operated

00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.860
much like a clockmaker who set things in motion.

00:34:46.670 --> 00:34:49.929
But basically just let things go. But didn't

00:34:49.929 --> 00:34:53.510
intervene in human history. Jefferson also did

00:34:53.510 --> 00:34:57.550
not believe in the divinity of Christ. He also

00:34:57.550 --> 00:35:00.010
didn't really believe in miracles because there's

00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:02.409
the Jefferson Bible where he basically goes through

00:35:02.409 --> 00:35:06.269
and takes out all the miraculous teachings. He

00:35:06.269 --> 00:35:09.369
cut them out with a knife. Yes. And basically

00:35:09.369 --> 00:35:11.989
established, you know, he viewed Christianity

00:35:11.989 --> 00:35:15.760
as a great moral force. which is part and parcel

00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:20.900
of how people in the founding era would view

00:35:20.900 --> 00:35:26.000
religion. You can have belief in all these miracles

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:30.880
and things, which they had divided opinions on,

00:35:31.059 --> 00:35:36.400
but they also had a belief in the need for a

00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.019
moral system, a system of morality to kind of

00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:45.869
guide the nation. They could support something

00:35:45.869 --> 00:35:51.010
like that, but they would not be supporting it

00:35:51.010 --> 00:35:54.070
monetarily or anything like that. Here's a useful

00:35:54.070 --> 00:35:58.050
checklist, I think, on deism, of what makes it

00:35:58.050 --> 00:36:00.849
up. As you were saying, they believed in a clockmaker

00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:03.389
god who set everything in motion and then sits

00:36:03.389 --> 00:36:06.010
back and watches. This god does not intervene

00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:09.829
in human affairs. They reject the idea of...

00:36:10.409 --> 00:36:12.389
Anything which they would call superstitious.

00:36:12.469 --> 00:36:16.230
So there's no miracles, right? And there's no

00:36:16.230 --> 00:36:18.010
divine intervention, so you can't say that this

00:36:18.010 --> 00:36:20.389
happened because of God. No, it didn't. God is

00:36:20.389 --> 00:36:22.769
just watching. They don't believe in holy books.

00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:25.130
They don't believe in prophecies. They don't

00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:27.590
believe in supernatural revelations. They do

00:36:27.590 --> 00:36:29.869
believe in rational thinking and scientific observation.

00:36:30.210 --> 00:36:32.949
They think that the best way to understand the

00:36:32.949 --> 00:36:35.429
creator is to study nature, because that's what

00:36:35.429 --> 00:36:40.619
he created. Yes. Okay. In a scientific way. but

00:36:40.619 --> 00:36:43.099
at least to observe nature, to understand the

00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:45.780
creator. And they believe that you should focus

00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:48.539
on morality and ethical behavior rather than

00:36:48.539 --> 00:36:52.679
on ritualistic worship and practices. So it's

00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:56.099
all about thinking, and none of it's about really

00:36:56.099 --> 00:36:58.500
emotion. It's a very rational kind of approach,

00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:00.739
too. But they don't agree with atheists in the

00:37:00.739 --> 00:37:02.780
sense that atheists reject the idea of a creator.

00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:06.300
Deists believe in a creator. So it's not atheism.

00:37:06.619 --> 00:37:10.900
No. Deists also differ from agnostics. Agnostics

00:37:10.900 --> 00:37:12.420
question whether you can know whether there's

00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.079
a God. Deists say that there is a God. There

00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:17.820
is a creator, anyway, right? And that you can

00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:20.400
use reason to determine that there must be a

00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.559
creator. But agnostics say that it's unknown

00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:25.360
or unknowable whether there's God. So they differ

00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:27.039
from atheists and they differ from agnostics.

00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.590
But they also... differ from what you would call

00:37:30.590 --> 00:37:34.050
theists, traditional religion, in that theists

00:37:34.050 --> 00:37:36.630
think that there's a God who actively intervenes

00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:38.650
in the world and in their lives, who actually

00:37:38.650 --> 00:37:42.630
hears prayers, who actually acts in human history

00:37:42.630 --> 00:37:44.349
to make certain outcomes happen in human history.

00:37:44.530 --> 00:37:47.570
Deists reject all of that. And, you know, I'm

00:37:47.570 --> 00:37:52.400
going to just interject a little bit of... sort

00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:54.619
of like where they're drawing on some of this.

00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:58.739
Lucretius, On the Nature of Things, was a book

00:37:58.739 --> 00:38:03.079
that Jefferson consulted, and it makes many of

00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:04.860
these same points, although they're making them

00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:09.440
in first century Rome. So this is not Jefferson's

00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:12.340
primary classical influence, but it's one of

00:38:12.340 --> 00:38:15.099
them, and it kind of influences his way of looking

00:38:15.099 --> 00:38:20.900
at religion. deities and things like that. Lucretius

00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:24.039
goes a lot further with the superstition, lampooning

00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:26.460
the superstitions of the Romans at times in the

00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:29.780
work. But this is a very influential text for

00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:33.239
people who were more secular and looking at a

00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:36.579
sort of secular approach to the world that came

00:38:36.579 --> 00:38:39.699
about from the ancient world. And deism was popular

00:38:39.699 --> 00:38:42.619
during the 17th and 18th century portion of the

00:38:42.619 --> 00:38:47.130
Enlightenment, so in the 16th and 1700s. And

00:38:47.130 --> 00:38:49.650
so the U .S. founding fathers either were deists

00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:51.849
or were aware of deism as principles. Jefferson

00:38:51.849 --> 00:38:56.050
was not the only one. No. But this book, you

00:38:56.050 --> 00:38:58.909
know, there is a very good book called The Swerve

00:38:58.909 --> 00:39:02.150
that talks about how this book was discovered

00:39:02.150 --> 00:39:06.389
by chance during the Renaissance and how it later

00:39:06.389 --> 00:39:11.809
became a text that many drew upon to define their

00:39:11.809 --> 00:39:17.059
religious belief in the... In the 18th century.

00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:21.440
And the author of The Swerve is Stephen Greenblatt,

00:39:21.500 --> 00:39:23.820
and this book did win the National Book Award,

00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:28.440
I believe, in 2012? National Book Award in 2011.

00:39:28.940 --> 00:39:31.750
2011, yes. And then it won the... Pulitzer Prize

00:39:31.750 --> 00:39:34.670
for General Nonfiction in 2012. Well worth checking

00:39:34.670 --> 00:39:37.829
out, even if you're not interested necessarily

00:39:37.829 --> 00:39:40.929
in classical works, you know, from ancient Greece

00:39:40.929 --> 00:39:43.769
and Rome. Good book to kind of see how some of

00:39:43.769 --> 00:39:47.269
that influenced the thinking of the Enlightenment

00:39:47.269 --> 00:39:49.789
and also America's founders. Another thing to

00:39:49.789 --> 00:39:52.090
note, too, is when I was doing some research

00:39:52.090 --> 00:39:55.869
for this series, talking about people like George

00:39:55.869 --> 00:39:58.369
Washington and George Mason, who are both founding

00:39:58.369 --> 00:40:01.460
fathers from Virginia. I get the impression,

00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:04.059
I'm in over my head to some extent here, but

00:40:04.059 --> 00:40:06.039
I get the impression from reading through their

00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.539
views that Christians and deists of the time

00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:12.940
did not necessarily see a need to make a big

00:40:12.940 --> 00:40:15.079
distinction between those two sets of beliefs.

00:40:15.619 --> 00:40:18.059
And that, in fact, in some cases, they merged

00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:20.280
them. Some of them did. Some of the founding

00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:21.840
fathers merged them into what's been called a

00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:26.099
Christian rationalism or Christian deism, which

00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:30.110
kind of was... Something along the lines of you

00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:34.389
did believe in Christian doctrine to some extent.

00:40:34.550 --> 00:40:38.269
You believed in the divinity of Christ. You believed

00:40:38.269 --> 00:40:42.650
that the Creator was the Christian God. But you

00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:45.510
nonetheless viewed it all through the prism of

00:40:45.510 --> 00:40:49.090
deism, through rationalism. It wasn't about miracles.

00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:52.670
It wasn't about anything superstitious. It was

00:40:52.670 --> 00:40:55.230
all about reasoning. So there was actually a

00:40:55.230 --> 00:40:58.050
kludge of the ideas of deism and Christianity

00:40:58.050 --> 00:41:00.010
into something that I've seen some authors call

00:41:00.010 --> 00:41:02.429
Christian rationalism or Christian deism. And

00:41:02.429 --> 00:41:03.809
I think some of the founding fathers actually

00:41:03.809 --> 00:41:06.050
had that sort of orientation because they were

00:41:06.050 --> 00:41:08.489
men of the Enlightenment, but they also came

00:41:08.489 --> 00:41:10.570
from a culturally Christian background. And that

00:41:10.570 --> 00:41:13.670
was a... That was a merger of the two in their

00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:16.809
mind. And they're trying to resist having the

00:41:16.809 --> 00:41:20.809
sort of problems that plagued Europe in the 1600s,

00:41:20.809 --> 00:41:24.070
where you have religion being like this huge

00:41:24.070 --> 00:41:28.590
source for conflict, a huge source for civil

00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:33.429
war, a huge source for persecution of people,

00:41:33.590 --> 00:41:37.869
sometimes irrationally, for their beliefs. Due

00:41:37.869 --> 00:41:40.929
to circumstances, I mean, Voltaire has in Candide,

00:41:40.989 --> 00:41:44.929
there's the famous Lisbon earthquake, and as

00:41:44.929 --> 00:41:47.289
a result, there is an autodefay, in which an

00:41:47.289 --> 00:41:50.510
act of faith is what it's called, in which people

00:41:50.510 --> 00:41:52.909
are rounded up, rounding up the usual suspects,

00:41:53.269 --> 00:41:57.090
Jews, people that appear to read the wrong books

00:41:57.090 --> 00:42:00.389
and things, they're basically burned at the stake,

00:42:00.550 --> 00:42:02.170
and this is something the Founding Fathers do

00:42:02.170 --> 00:42:04.269
not want to see happen here. They do not want

00:42:04.269 --> 00:42:07.659
to see people persecuted. for their beliefs,

00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:12.159
or, you know, treated wrong because they may

00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:15.739
not have, they may eschew pork, for example,

00:42:15.739 --> 00:42:17.860
thereby indicating that they're not, they're

00:42:17.860 --> 00:42:20.500
Jews who haven't really converted. Yeah, and

00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:22.940
you also see, and again, we'll get into this

00:42:22.940 --> 00:42:24.960
later, but you see a focus for at least some

00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:27.539
of the founding fathers on civic tranquility

00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:29.960
and the role of religion in that. And they saw

00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:31.719
that it could play a positive role, but also

00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:33.980
could play a negative role. We'll get into that

00:42:33.980 --> 00:42:35.719
later. We won't get into it now. But both of

00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:37.719
those things were in play there, too. Well, and

00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:41.300
you have, I would say, Thomas Jefferson did own

00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:44.139
a copy of the Koran. So he was aware of other

00:42:44.139 --> 00:42:48.019
religions. And he called them Mohammedans. Well,

00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:49.840
that was a common term. That was a common term.

00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:51.340
I know, I know. Common term back then. I'm laughing

00:42:51.340 --> 00:42:54.460
at it now because it's funny now. But that was

00:42:54.460 --> 00:42:56.780
the term of art. That was what they referred

00:42:56.780 --> 00:43:00.789
to them as. And then you have Ben Franklin, who

00:43:00.789 --> 00:43:04.530
I would consider largely an atheist. Maybe not

00:43:04.530 --> 00:43:09.130
purely by definition, but darn close to it. He

00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:15.269
didn't totally skew Christian morality. You know,

00:43:15.309 --> 00:43:17.809
he did think of Jesus as being a great moral

00:43:17.809 --> 00:43:21.510
teacher, like Confucius, like Buddha, you know.

00:43:22.010 --> 00:43:26.130
or like anyone else, for that matter, who might

00:43:26.130 --> 00:43:28.769
have appealed to a higher nature, but certainly

00:43:28.769 --> 00:43:30.929
not divine. He made a joke. He said that he thought

00:43:30.929 --> 00:43:34.250
that Jesus was probably the product of some woman

00:43:34.250 --> 00:43:37.809
who got impregnated by a Roman soldier, and there

00:43:37.809 --> 00:43:42.659
was the... Virgin birth. That's a good one. Yes.

00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:45.079
That's a good one. Well, and then you also had

00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.579
founding fathers like Patrick Henry, who was

00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:51.400
a much more fervent Christian. And Episcopalian.

00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:55.599
And Episcopalian, and wanted at least, he was

00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:00.199
in favor of having the citizens pay into the

00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:04.059
church. And this is about morality, though. I

00:44:04.059 --> 00:44:06.639
mean, I would say that his appeal is... This

00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:09.139
is a way of keeping people moral by keeping them

00:44:09.139 --> 00:44:11.179
connected to the Episcopalian Church, which is

00:44:11.179 --> 00:44:17.320
his church. The Founders rejected the idea of

00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:20.559
setting up a Christian state or a religious state

00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:23.860
of any kind and specifically forbade the idea

00:44:23.860 --> 00:44:27.139
in the First Amendment. The Founding Fathers

00:44:27.139 --> 00:44:29.739
did not create a secular government because they

00:44:29.739 --> 00:44:32.880
disliked religion. Many of them were believers

00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.599
themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers

00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.239
of a powerful state backing or requiring an official

00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.960
religion. They had studied and even seen firsthand

00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:47.539
religious wars and persecutions in Europe. And

00:44:47.539 --> 00:44:50.219
during the American colonial period, alliances

00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:53.460
between religion and government produced oppression

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:57.559
and tyranny on our own shores. Avoiding that

00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:00.440
at all costs was a goal in our nation's birth.

00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:03.940
And I would argue that by avoiding any established

00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:07.900
religion in America, the Founders actually fostered

00:45:07.900 --> 00:45:10.820
a much more diverse marketplace of religious

00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:15.260
ideas, practice, and belief, including the lack

00:45:15.260 --> 00:45:18.980
thereof. As we go further into the series, we're

00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:21.860
going to cover the Age of Enlightenment and its

00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:25.099
influence on our Founding Fathers, and also we'll

00:45:25.099 --> 00:45:27.360
cover the Founding Fathers themselves and their

00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:31.090
individual religious beliefs and attitudes. And

00:45:31.090 --> 00:45:33.110
we cannot overlook the First Great Awakening,

00:45:33.110 --> 00:45:35.429
which burst onto the colonial American scene

00:45:35.429 --> 00:45:38.989
in the 1730s. In our next episode, we're going

00:45:38.989 --> 00:45:41.190
to get into the religious founding of each of

00:45:41.190 --> 00:45:43.429
the 13 colonies, I believe. In great detail.

00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:48.369
Excellent. That's it for this episode of the

00:45:48.369 --> 00:45:51.230
United States of Amnesia. Thank you for listening.

00:45:51.489 --> 00:45:53.889
We hope you learned something, and we hope you

00:45:53.889 --> 00:45:56.050
discovered new ways of looking at things you

00:45:56.050 --> 00:45:58.909
had already heard or thought about, or perhaps

00:45:58.909 --> 00:46:01.650
hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed it, that's

00:46:01.650 --> 00:46:05.090
great. If we made you mad, that's okay too. Either

00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:10.030
way, email us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and

00:46:10.030 --> 00:46:12.530
let us know what you think. Also, let us know

00:46:12.530 --> 00:46:14.610
about anything you think we missed or got wrong.

00:46:14.809 --> 00:46:17.750
We'd like to know about that too. And of course,

00:46:17.829 --> 00:46:20.289
please like and subscribe and let your friends

00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:23.269
and neighbors know about us. We also have a website.

00:46:23.429 --> 00:46:30.340
It's www .usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike,

00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:33.219
and myself, Blake Hinke. Till next time.