209: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - White Paper to Red Scare

WEBVTT

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Let's take a macro view of things. I think this

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is a good opportunity for that. So there's three

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positions that emerge in 1949 as to what to do

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about China. And this is before, this is while

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the Civil War is still going on. Civil War is

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still going on. Before the PRC is declared. In

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October. And before there's a nuclear. Before

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the nationalists go to Taipei. Yeah. Taiwan.

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Okay. Things are making their way to Taipei.

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They're still fighting on the mainland. Yes.

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They're still fighting on the mainland. Yeah.

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Things like gold. and antiquities and some military

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equipment are making their way to to Taiwan because

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some people can see which way the wind is blowing

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but again they're still fighting welcome to the

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United States of amnesia we are the podcast that

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reminds us of what we have forgotten it is often

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said that history repeats itself Mark Twain allegedly

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said that history doesn't repeat itself, but

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it rhymes. But over time, many topics have become

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clouded by biases and oversimplifications, or

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have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. In this episode, we

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engage in a wide -ranging discussion of American

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policy disputes and debates over what to do about

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China after World War II. Marshall lays out three

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options that U .S. policymakers debated between

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1945 and 1950. One, should the United States

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follow the advice of the, quote, China hands,

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by turning its back on the corrupt nationalist

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government of the Republic of China, under shanghai

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sheikh and instead recognize the communist government

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of the people's republic of china as china's

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legitimate government two should america take

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the view of policy realists that china had little

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strategic value to the united states and was

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a socio -political mess not worth being involved

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in or three should america do what the quote

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china lobby i .e. the supporters of Chiang Kai

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-shek, wanted and go all in with continued support

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to Chiang. When communist Chinese volunteers

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intervene in the Korean War in 1950, the American

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idea that communism is monolithic solidifies,

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leading to consequences in the United States

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that, ironically, give events in China far more

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influence over the United States than America

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ever had in China. So there's three positions.

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The first was to come to some accommodation with

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Mao. But again, since Mao does not have a government,

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how do you do this? What is your means of engaging

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with him when you don't have... Who is your head

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of state? Who is your this? Who is your that?

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You know, who's your foreign minister? There

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had been negotiations between the communists

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and the nationalists in the past, and we had

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tried to broker those. Yes. How did we handle

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that then? Because there was no PRC government

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yet. There was no PRC government. How did we

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handle it? PRC was allowed to send representatives

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to those talks. Well, there was no PRC yet, but

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the Chinese Communist Party. Chinese Communist

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Party. Chinese Forces Party, yeah, we're allowed

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to. Yes. Provided, you know, and it was Zhou

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Enlai, who's later foreign minister, who is involved

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in that. But that was not considered a feasible

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way in 1949 to try to resolve anything. No, and

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it's actually the least popular. Of the options.

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Of the options, yes. Of the three options. You

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know, there's nothing to accommodate. There's

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nothing to recognize. So how do we do this? The

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mechanics of this, because this all means something

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among people who are foreign policy professionals.

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Even though these things seem like little niceties

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to us, they are important. Yeah, you're not claiming

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to be a country. You're not claiming to be a

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government, at least not yet. So who exactly

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am I dealing with and who exactly am I recognizing?

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Just a bunch of insurgents. It makes a difference

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legally. If you do that, you could recognize,

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say, Black Lives Matter, or you could recognize

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ICE as a legitimate government, or whoever, if

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you take that attitude. And that's kind of what...

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That attitude is... Who are you speaking for

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when you speak to me and you're just speaking

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for a bunch of bandits as far as I'm concerned?

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It's not the same thing as if you're speaking

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for a government. If you don't have a government

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and you don't have an intention to form a government,

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then what are you? Okay, so that was not a popular

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option for that reason. The people that were

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advocating that are people who had some close

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connection or contact with... the Chinese communists

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during World War II and the people that were

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going back and forth with Stilwell. These are

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people who are still employed by the U .S. government

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in the State Department and elsewhere, and these

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are the China hands who we'll get into a little

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bit more next time. These are the folks who I

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mentioned in an earlier episode. They had been

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going back and forth and coming to Stilwell and

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telling him that the Chinese communists were...

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democratically inclined agrarian reformers. Yes.

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These are those folks. Yes. And they favored

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this approach. And I mean, they had basically

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been fed a line of propaganda, which they believed,

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just as the people who were proponents of Chiang

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had been fed a line of propaganda, which they

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chose to believe. There was no factual basis

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for that Chiang was some great statesman or that

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the Chinese communists were a benign and even

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helpful force. that for good in the world that

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only wanted agricultural reform so totally totally

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the positions were both were totally like they're

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they're emotional emotion -based yeah they're

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emotion -based and you're making me think too

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like when i was researching stillwell yeah for

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the for those segments we did on stillwell at

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one point they were discussing one of the uh

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chinese communist uh senior leaders or generals

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or whatever you know and yeah and um they had

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uh They were talking to him about this senior

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communist leader. And Stilwell said, oh, like

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most reds, he's a good egg. Yeah. You know, like

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most reds. You know, the communists are the good

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people. Yeah. So there was a constituency for

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this, I guess. And it was not based on real evidence.

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It was basically propaganda, emotion. There was

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an inclination to believe it. I guess in contrast

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to what the other side was, which was a bunch

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of corrupt people in the nationalist side. Stillwell

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is a Yankee and he has got this sort of ascetic

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view of the world. And it's like, you know, Stillwell

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is the sort of person that if they're having

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to do an evacuation, he's going to lead it. He

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will put everybody on half rations and he will

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take quarter rations because in Stillwell's mind,

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if it doesn't hurt, it's not real. Almost. And

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so when he's seeing similarly inclined people

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who are willing to live in caves under very primitive

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conditions as compared to people who are, you

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know, using gold -plated toilets, he's going

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to go with the ones who are living in caves.

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Still well had a reputation in the U .S. Army

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for being able to get a lot done with very limited

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means. Part of that was being pretty harsh about

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things, like you said, half rations, quarter

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rations. But it's true. He was able to get a

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lot done with very limited means. You could see

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why he would admire people who he thought were

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doing the same thing. And the same goes for the

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people who he was using as liaisons between himself.

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These guys actually could respect. You're dealing

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with an economy that's collapsed with a nationalist,

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and the only way you can get by is through corruption.

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This is not the view of China that they had been

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led to believe existed there, so they're absolutely

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disgusted by it. And then they see these other

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people who seem like, I am putting the greater

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good at a premium as opposed to my own survival,

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and so forth. And so that is... That's kind of

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where this is coming from, I think. I think it's

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almost an aesthetic choice that you make. So

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let's talk about the second position. And the

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second position was that China is totally irrelevant.

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Now, that's interesting. And this is a position

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that Marshall had. And this is why Marshall was

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reluctant to contribute military forces. And

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this was also both during World War II. and also

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in the aftermath during the Civil War. So Marshall

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does not see a U .S. interest that is at stake,

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and he is constantly arguing with people over

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in the State Department and people over in the

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new Department of Defense. He basically takes

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that position, and Truman kind of. kind of takes

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some of that on, not for the reason that Marshall

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has. He is basically looking at Truman. Okay,

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so before we go to Truman, just to be clear for

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me and for everybody else. So Marshall's priority

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was, number one was Europe. Yeah. Number two,

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I guess, was Japan and then Korea as a way of

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defending Japan. and China was priority zero

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to him. Now, before we talk about Truman's view

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being different from Marshall's, let's talk about

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why Marshall thought this. I get that he thought

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Europe was important. I understand why. I get

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thinking Japan and Korea are important too. I

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understand why. But why China is so irrelevant?

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He doesn't see a national interest at stake with

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China going in and trying to fix China. He doesn't

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see the U .S. getting anything out of trying

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to fix China, only a bunch of problems that are

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more or less insolvable as far as he's concerned.

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If I can just offer a story real quick here.

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I remember when I was in college, and this is

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back at the height of the Cold War, back in the

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late 70s. I had a professor talking to us about

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– I think it was a class on like Soviet -American

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relations or something. And he did – he talked

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about the Berlin Airlift of 1948 -49. And for

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those who aren't familiar with that, it was the

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Soviets closed access to West Berlin. They wouldn't

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let any trains in or anything. They wouldn't

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let any trucks in, which violated the agreement

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we had with them about West Berlin. And so we

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mounted this giant heroic airlift bringing food

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and supplies and things into West Berlin and

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kept West Berlin at its feet. And the historiography

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of it was that weren't the Soviets stupid to

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think we wouldn't care about West Berlin? Why

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did they think that this would work, right, that

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they could starve West Berlin and we wouldn't

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do anything about it? Why? And he said, well,

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what you have to understand is we're talking

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about 1948, 1949 was the Berlin Airlift. Well,

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at the time, we were doing almost nothing to

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help China, which was starting to be overrun

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by the communists. From the Soviet point of view

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at that time, it was, well, they don't care about

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400 million people in China coming over. I mean,

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to put it simplistically, coming over to our

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side, but in being communist, at least, they

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don't care about that. Why would they care about

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2 million people in Berlin? And you know what?

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That's a good question. But it misled them because

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it turned out we cared about Berlin and not about

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China. But when you think about it in terms of

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population. I think that goes back to the bias

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that we have towards Europe. uh the bias i mean

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is a is it a racial thing is it you know we care

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more about europeans because so many of us are

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from european answer what i don't know i mean

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there's all sorts of things there but um it it's

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interesting to look at it that way isn't it yeah

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that we you know we didn't care about whatever

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400 million people was in terms of percentage

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of the world population but it was a lot probably

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a quarter then yeah we just let it go well you're

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getting to that i don't i don't know that it's

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ours to lose Point taken. I mean, what I'm saying

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is the Soviet perspective on that is another

00:12:48.590 --> 00:12:50.750
interesting way of looking at it. Yeah. Just

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looking in terms of numbers of people. Why didn't

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you try harder to keep 400 million people and

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why are you trying so hard to keep 2 million?

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See, these are the kinds of things that never

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were even brought up to me in school. That paradox

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was never even a thing. But I would again argue

00:13:06.929 --> 00:13:10.980
we do not have... as much leverage over events

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in China as some people seem to think that we

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do. Well, point taken. I mean, it's like, let

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me get through Truman, and then we'll talk about

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the third group. How did Truman differ from Marshall,

00:13:22.940 --> 00:13:24.899
then? That's where you were going. Well, Truman

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is kind of envisioning that things are going

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to set themselves right somehow or the other,

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that basically the communists will come in, they'll

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fail. And then they'll get kicked out. There'll

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be a different kind of government. It won't be

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as corrupt as the Nationalists. It won't be communist.

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It'll be something better, and it'll be a good

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government. Now, I'm just going to say this.

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I do like Truman. I grew up hearing all sorts

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of great stories about Truman. But this is a

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totally unrealistic... way to assess an outcome

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here. And I would also argue that this is something

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that we see us doing in various other places

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around the world, not just China, but say, think

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about Vietnam, think about the Middle East, think

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about Iraq. You know, we are going to assume

00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.000
a positive outcome when we go into some of these

00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:30.000
places. That is – and even a democratic outcome,

00:14:30.139 --> 00:14:32.919
which is kind of what Truman – and again, we're

00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:35.080
dealing with – and we cannot stress this too

00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.740
much – a country with 90 percent illiteracy.

00:14:37.899 --> 00:14:40.220
And you can't have a democracy without that.

00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:43.200
So this begs the question. Without literacy,

00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.620
you cannot have a democracy. Which all begs the

00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:51.259
question, why did Truman – why was Truman so

00:14:51.259 --> 00:14:54.899
sure, if that's the right word, sure, that the

00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:57.549
communists would fail? He viewed it as a system

00:14:57.549 --> 00:15:02.549
that did habitually fail. You know, he did not

00:15:02.549 --> 00:15:04.409
view it as a system that— I mean, the Soviets

00:15:04.409 --> 00:15:06.889
just beat the Germans. Yeah. That was a pretty

00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:09.570
tough fight, and they won. Yeah, but it's still—

00:15:09.570 --> 00:15:11.009
The Soviets were our big challengers on Earth.

00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:12.509
The Communists were doing pretty well in 1948,

00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:15.110
49, 50, if you want to look at it that way. So

00:15:15.110 --> 00:15:16.889
why do you think that's going to fail there?

00:15:17.289 --> 00:15:20.370
Well, he felt it was a system that was incapable

00:15:20.370 --> 00:15:25.820
of— Lasting. Of lasting. And if you think about

00:15:25.820 --> 00:15:29.039
it, Truman is right about this because eventually

00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:34.600
communism does fail. It took another 40 years.

00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.240
Yeah, I mean, Truman had been dead for like something

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:42.019
like 20 years when it happened. Communism failed.

00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:44.919
China remains a communist government, but it

00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:49.850
remains that by actually. reforming itself to

00:15:49.850 --> 00:15:53.289
adopt a lot of capitalist ways of doing things,

00:15:53.409 --> 00:15:55.929
right? It's kind of this weird kludge of capitalism

00:15:55.929 --> 00:15:58.509
and communism now. It's more capitalist than

00:15:58.509 --> 00:16:01.210
communist. Yes. It's more of a dictatorship than

00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:05.210
it is... The Communist Party is the autocratic

00:16:05.210 --> 00:16:08.350
system that kind of perpetuates things in China

00:16:08.350 --> 00:16:13.970
these days. I get the idea that... you know communism

00:16:13.970 --> 00:16:16.350
is doomed to fail it's destined to fail okay

00:16:16.350 --> 00:16:21.070
but you sure are putting a lot of your eggs in

00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:24.110
that basket in 1948 or 49 you are i'm not just

00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:26.269
assuming like you're saying to assume a positive

00:16:26.269 --> 00:16:28.610
outcome of that nature at that point is you know

00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.750
A lot to assume. And it's not – but again, it

00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:35.669
is not just Truman that does this sort of thing.

00:16:36.710 --> 00:16:39.809
If you look at stuff that happens with Vietnam,

00:16:40.210 --> 00:16:44.330
there is always going to be a positive – we're

00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:46.990
entering – we see light at the end of the tunnel,

00:16:47.090 --> 00:16:48.970
et cetera, et cetera, that things are going to

00:16:48.970 --> 00:16:50.809
right themselves and we're going to be able to

00:16:50.809 --> 00:16:53.669
walk away. And South Vietnam is going to remain

00:16:53.669 --> 00:17:00.340
a democratic government. And that didn't happen.

00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.299
Okay, so now we're comparing and contrasting

00:17:05.299 --> 00:17:07.579
Marshall and Truman. So if I understand you,

00:17:07.700 --> 00:17:09.779
the difference is Marshall didn't really care

00:17:09.779 --> 00:17:11.299
about China or think we had any interest there

00:17:11.299 --> 00:17:13.640
at all. And felt there were more pressing interests

00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:14.660
elsewhere. More pressing interests elsewhere.

00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.579
Truman felt that China mattered more, but he

00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:19.119
thought if he just left it alone, it would work

00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:20.799
out on its own without us having to commit too

00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.119
much to it. That's his initial going in. That's

00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.740
his initial proposition. So that's the difference

00:17:24.740 --> 00:17:27.609
between. Marshall and Truman, at least at the

00:17:27.609 --> 00:17:29.430
beginning. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. All right.

00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:33.950
You know, and Acheson wants to take, when he

00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:36.589
becomes Secretary of State, he wants to take

00:17:36.589 --> 00:17:39.089
an almost wait and see type attitude. He feels

00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:42.890
like things are too much in a flux. to actually

00:17:42.890 --> 00:17:46.849
come up with a solid policy that's going to have

00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:49.690
any chance of succeeding any one way or the other.

00:17:49.890 --> 00:17:52.390
And so Acheson is coming in at the beginning

00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:55.410
of the second Truman administration. So that

00:17:55.410 --> 00:18:00.289
would be January of 49. And of course, the nationalists

00:18:00.289 --> 00:18:02.750
don't retreat to Taiwan until December of 49.

00:18:02.910 --> 00:18:04.750
So he's got about a year to work with here where

00:18:04.750 --> 00:18:26.650
he's thinking this. Okay. All right. So the third

00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:30.410
position is to double down and support Chiang

00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:35.529
Kai -shek. Okay. Okay. So this is a position,

00:18:35.650 --> 00:18:38.049
you know, we need to think about that during

00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:41.170
the war there was this idea people went over

00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:43.869
to China as missionaries or on goodwill missions.

00:18:44.289 --> 00:18:47.880
They were given a dog and pony show by. Chiang

00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.759
Kai -shek and his wife. They would be whisked

00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.759
off to these very lavish estates that they had.

00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:58.200
They would be given a vision for the future that

00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.000
included, in some cases, Christianity. Christianity

00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.359
would be in the back of everybody's mind here

00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.960
because both of them were Christians. So a couple

00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.640
of episodes ago, we talked about in the interwar

00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:12.259
period, 20s, 30s, 40s, the missionary influence

00:19:12.259 --> 00:19:16.670
and how they had been They bamboozled into thinking

00:19:16.670 --> 00:19:19.809
that, because they really wanted to think this,

00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:22.069
that China was going to modernize under Chung.

00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:24.509
It was going to work out. Well. We talked about

00:19:24.509 --> 00:19:27.390
that. And Christianize. Christianize and modernize.

00:19:27.390 --> 00:19:29.170
Modernize and Christianize under Chung. Yeah.

00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:31.529
And we talked about that at some length. So this

00:19:31.529 --> 00:19:34.430
third position is them still saying that. Yes.

00:19:35.170 --> 00:19:38.829
As things go south in the Chinese Civil War.

00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:44.069
Yes. And I mean, a good example of this is. Congressman

00:19:44.069 --> 00:19:49.470
Walter Judd of Minnesota. And he is a former

00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:55.710
missionary to China. And he is, through the sweat

00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:58.609
of his brow, he gets elected as a congressman.

00:19:59.009 --> 00:20:03.730
And he actually went on a tour with Truman at

00:20:03.730 --> 00:20:06.690
one point in 1943 when he was a congressman and

00:20:06.690 --> 00:20:09.410
Truman was a senator to kind of speak on behalf

00:20:09.410 --> 00:20:15.690
of the United Nations. Walter Judd is also a

00:20:15.690 --> 00:20:19.410
very good friend with Madam Chang, and he is

00:20:19.410 --> 00:20:24.289
visiting her in Riverside, New York. And she

00:20:24.289 --> 00:20:28.890
wants to make sure that she's got him in her

00:20:28.890 --> 00:20:34.789
corner. Another person is Truman's own Secretary

00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:39.869
of Defense, Lewis Johnson, who is very strongly...

00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:46.299
and favorably impressed by Madam Chiang Kai -shek.

00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:52.259
He basically, at one point, makes a comment to

00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:56.559
a congressman that he knew where they could get

00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:02.380
all the money he needed from a source that he

00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:05.720
declined to name, but it basically hinged on

00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:11.029
policy regarding China. Truman has kind of a

00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:16.829
divided government. He's taking a kind of utopian

00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:20.789
take on China. Acheson is taking, we don't want

00:21:20.789 --> 00:21:24.569
to get involved in China. And the Secretary of

00:21:24.569 --> 00:21:29.009
Defense is taking a position, we do need to get

00:21:29.009 --> 00:21:31.329
involved in China, and we do need to commit military

00:21:31.329 --> 00:21:35.049
forces there. Now, within that, because things

00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:40.309
are confused, CIA is kind of a new organization.

00:21:40.990 --> 00:21:44.029
You have people involved in the CIA who are saying,

00:21:44.170 --> 00:21:46.549
maybe we need to be setting up covert assistance

00:21:46.549 --> 00:21:50.789
to some of the remaining Chinese generals that

00:21:50.789 --> 00:21:53.950
are still on the mainland and provide them with

00:21:53.950 --> 00:21:56.289
aid to be able to resist. Now, when you were

00:21:56.289 --> 00:21:59.630
talking about the Civil War continuing, the areas

00:21:59.630 --> 00:22:02.950
where these Chinese generals had influence were

00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:07.930
in the western part of China. a lot of people

00:22:07.930 --> 00:22:12.630
taking an interest in the defense of China thought

00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:18.009
Tibet was very much an isolated area that they

00:22:18.009 --> 00:22:21.190
could actually conduct operations from. And so

00:22:21.190 --> 00:22:25.789
covert planning, covert operations on a limited

00:22:25.789 --> 00:22:30.569
scale were ongoing mainly because no one had

00:22:30.569 --> 00:22:32.529
authorized them, but nobody said you couldn't

00:22:32.529 --> 00:22:36.059
do them. So people are like using their initiative

00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:40.180
to go in and involve themselves in these types

00:22:40.180 --> 00:22:42.059
of matters here. Go ahead and do it and apologize

00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.319
for it later. Yeah. Yeah. They figured that,

00:22:44.420 --> 00:22:47.880
you know, and again, CIA has just been set up

00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:52.160
in 1947. And it was the successor organization

00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.259
to the wartime Office of Strategic Services or

00:22:56.259 --> 00:23:00.380
the OSS, which was a sort of centralization of.

00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:04.250
intelligence for the policymaker. They're basically

00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:09.710
channeling that old OSS spirit of daring do here

00:23:09.710 --> 00:23:18.329
in their approach to China here. So the thing

00:23:18.329 --> 00:23:20.849
that they're forgetting here, and I hate to keep

00:23:20.849 --> 00:23:26.509
hitting on this, is how do you support operations

00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.819
in the western part of China, in Central Asia?

00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:34.720
How do you supply that? How do you supply, if

00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.599
it's difficult for the Chinese to get to Tibet,

00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.099
it's difficult for you to get to Tibet because

00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:42.880
you're not in the country. So all of these plans

00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.200
that came up when I was researching this, they

00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:50.660
were all horribly impractical. And I'm just going

00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:53.559
to say, this is not the first time we're going

00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:55.940
to see people like the intelligence services

00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:59.140
come up with highly impractical operations which

00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:02.660
are cute in the sense that they're complicated,

00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.019
but by the fact that they are complicated, that

00:24:07.019 --> 00:24:11.740
means that they're highly likely to fail. We

00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:16.059
saw a lot of that in 1949. And when you think

00:24:16.059 --> 00:24:17.640
about what you're saying there, too, and again,

00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:19.279
we talked about this in the World War II episode,

00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:23.279
how we had that large airlift program project,

00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:25.900
the over -the -hump flights to get from India

00:24:25.900 --> 00:24:29.680
into China to support. Chung Kai -shek's government

00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:33.160
and later Chennault's planes and later the B

00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:36.559
-29s bombing all that, but bombing Japan. I mean,

00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:38.980
but that was a major effort. And, you know, airlifts

00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:41.000
have their limitations. They can do heroic things,

00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:42.619
but there's only so much you can bring in by

00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:45.140
air. Hence all that fighting in Burma over the

00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:47.200
Burma Road that we talked about too, you know.

00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.470
But the Burma Road doesn't go to Tibet. I know.

00:24:50.809 --> 00:24:52.750
So, you know, that's not helpful if you're going

00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:55.210
to be based in Tibet. And you've got the Himalayas

00:24:55.210 --> 00:24:57.309
in the way and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. I mean,

00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:00.329
with Stilwell, Stilwell has an appreciation for

00:25:00.329 --> 00:25:04.910
logistics and for how you supply an army, some

00:25:04.910 --> 00:25:07.890
of these, or an air force for that matter. And

00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:12.309
this is not necessarily an appreciation that,

00:25:12.349 --> 00:25:16.309
say, some of these guys over. CIA was actually

00:25:16.309 --> 00:25:19.029
in a series of temporary buildings on the Mall

00:25:19.029 --> 00:25:23.930
at the time. They weren't out in McLean. For

00:25:23.930 --> 00:25:26.150
our listeners who aren't that familiar with Washington,

00:25:26.250 --> 00:25:31.029
D .C. geography, the National Mall that Marshall

00:25:31.029 --> 00:25:33.309
is referring to is the large park. It's about

00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:35.450
three miles long. It runs from the United States

00:25:35.450 --> 00:25:37.210
Capitol Building down to the Lincoln Memorial.

00:25:37.430 --> 00:25:40.789
The Washington Monument is on the Mall. He mentions

00:25:40.789 --> 00:25:44.319
McLean, Virginia. McLean is a town. or a populated

00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.279
area anyway, in Northern Virginia across the

00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.380
river from Washington, D .C. That's right. People

00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:52.619
that are like living in these sort of temporary

00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:54.380
buildings over by the reflecting pool, they're

00:25:54.380 --> 00:25:56.980
coming up with... The reflecting pool, that's

00:25:56.980 --> 00:25:59.839
another Washington, D .C. landmark. It's an artificial

00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:02.980
pond that lies between the Washington Monument

00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:05.240
and the Lincoln Memorial. And at the time...

00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:10.529
This area was heavily inundated with all of these

00:26:10.529 --> 00:26:14.089
buildings that had been erected since World War

00:26:14.089 --> 00:26:16.950
I and even World War II, and this is where CIA

00:26:16.950 --> 00:26:19.450
was housed, and these guys were coming up with

00:26:19.450 --> 00:26:22.690
ideas. They aren't really being vetted in the

00:26:22.690 --> 00:26:27.529
way that they should be, and they have some resources

00:26:27.529 --> 00:26:30.009
that they can expend, but no one's really bought

00:26:30.009 --> 00:26:32.589
off in championing them other than, say, maybe...

00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.819
uh secretary of defense johnson who's kind of

00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:37.799
like yeah we need to go in and get tough with

00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:40.799
with the communist year it's it's more like wouldn't

00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.619
it be cool if we could do this yes there's a

00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:45.259
lot of serious planning to do it yes yeah yeah

00:26:45.259 --> 00:26:48.400
that that you know People were impressed by the

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.900
whole daring do of this. As Mao's forces are

00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:56.420
beginning to take territory and Chiang is moving

00:26:56.420 --> 00:26:59.160
gold, cash, and military supplies to Taiwan,

00:26:59.779 --> 00:27:03.579
Dean Acheson decided to have the State Department

00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:06.660
put down, how did we get there from here? And

00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:09.220
they did this in the form of a China white paper,

00:27:09.339 --> 00:27:12.559
which they wrote, which was meant to kind of

00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:16.559
go in and... look at what the United States had

00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.619
done as far as Chiang Kai -shek's government

00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:24.200
went, and what the response was. We don't hear

00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:26.299
the term white paper very often anymore, but

00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:28.019
that's a policy document, right? It's a policy

00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:32.339
document, and it's meant to inform policy and

00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:35.220
say, look, this is, in a manner of speaking,

00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.079
just given what the conclusions of the document

00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:42.809
were, was that... Chang was incompetent. All

00:27:42.809 --> 00:27:47.309
the aid that we had given them was useless. It

00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:51.289
didn't support anything. We should just cut them

00:27:51.289 --> 00:27:55.390
loose. Now, this is exactly what Madam Chiang

00:27:55.390 --> 00:27:58.250
Kai -shek is most fearful of, that this is the

00:27:58.250 --> 00:28:01.650
end of the gravy train. And so she is, again,

00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:05.849
entertaining all sorts of people at her, yes,

00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:08.910
it's her sister -in -law's house. It's her sister's

00:28:08.910 --> 00:28:12.799
house. and brother -in -law's house up in upstate

00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:16.940
New York. And she's entertaining all these officials

00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:19.339
there, fearful that this is going to go away.

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.019
And there was a lot of U .S. largesse that had

00:28:23.019 --> 00:28:27.819
basically been used to support her family, her

00:28:27.819 --> 00:28:30.819
immediate family, and her in -laws over the last

00:28:30.819 --> 00:28:34.819
10 years. So her brother, her brother, TV sung.

00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:39.329
He's one of the richest people in the world at

00:28:39.329 --> 00:28:42.150
this point, and I don't think he got rich in

00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:44.609
the family business of printing Bibles. During

00:28:44.609 --> 00:28:46.829
World War II, he had been Chung's representative

00:28:46.829 --> 00:28:49.049
to the U .S. government. Yes. Chung Kai -shek's

00:28:49.049 --> 00:28:50.769
representative to the U .S. government in Washington.

00:28:50.869 --> 00:28:54.450
Yes. Played a big role in that. And he was, you

00:28:54.450 --> 00:28:57.359
know, again, you know, when I said that... When

00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:01.579
I made the statement that what you have is the

00:29:01.579 --> 00:29:04.660
Song Dynasty coming in, you see all of these

00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:09.019
people playing different roles within Chiang

00:29:09.019 --> 00:29:12.619
Kai -shek's government through nepotism and so

00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:14.099
forth. I mean, they're an impressive family,

00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:17.440
but they're also corrupt as hell. And they're

00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.599
living off the fat of the land. What gets created

00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:25.240
is something that we can refer to and history

00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:28.759
refers to as the China lobby. And the China lobby

00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:33.259
is something that is financed by the Kuomintang.

00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:35.380
Now, make sure everybody understands. The Kuomintang

00:29:35.380 --> 00:29:39.319
is the Chinese name for the nationalist party,

00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.119
the nationalist government. The nationalist government.

00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.359
Thank you for that. It's pronounced Kuomintang.

00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:49.240
You'll see it spelled as if it's spelled Kuomintang

00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.619
or Tang. You pronounce it Guomindang. That's

00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:54.279
what the Guomindang is. So when you hear that

00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:59.279
or the KMT is an abbreviation for it, that is

00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.339
a synonym for the Chinese Nationalist Party and

00:30:03.339 --> 00:30:05.599
government. So you have this political party

00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:10.440
that is basically taking resources and... And

00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.839
the China lobby has a real name, and it's basically

00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:18.119
the Million Man Committee or something like that

00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:22.140
to prevent the recognition of communist China.

00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:28.880
But they actually set themselves up to become

00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:33.019
a force to be reckoned with on U .S. policy in

00:30:33.019 --> 00:30:38.079
China from 1950 to the 70s when one of the people

00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:40.759
who they are sponsoring, One, Richard Nixon,

00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:47.160
because he was part of this, basically decides

00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:48.940
that we're going to go a different route with

00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:52.079
China here. I want to ask you one thing, though.

00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.720
Yeah. You mentioned the three options. Yeah.

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.640
One option I did not hear that you mentioned,

00:30:57.799 --> 00:30:59.119
right? I'm not saying it was an option, but I'm

00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:00.559
saying one thing I did not hear you mention among

00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.380
the options was this persistent idea, among some

00:31:03.380 --> 00:31:08.170
Americans at least, that the communists... were

00:31:08.170 --> 00:31:10.549
the good guys that the communists were the agrarian

00:31:10.549 --> 00:31:12.390
reformers right that they were democratically

00:31:12.390 --> 00:31:15.490
inclined now no there is recognition so that

00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:17.349
that is what i'm trying to get what i'm trying

00:31:17.349 --> 00:31:19.430
to get at is the first option is recognition

00:31:19.430 --> 00:31:21.609
of mal right well what i'm trying to get in what

00:31:21.609 --> 00:31:23.369
i'm trying to get to there is that must have

00:31:23.369 --> 00:31:26.009
fallen by the wayside for there to be only those

00:31:26.009 --> 00:31:27.750
three options because none of those include that

00:31:27.750 --> 00:31:31.720
possibility was there any I mean, maybe you couldn't

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:33.759
have this in all the communist scare times and

00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:34.980
like that, but I'm just saying. We're getting

00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:36.599
to the communist scare times. Yeah, but was there

00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:41.480
any at this point? Had that been discarded? Was

00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:43.759
it still an active thing? Was it a minority opinion?

00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:45.460
Where did it stand at this time? The furthest

00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:48.180
anybody was prepared to go was basically just

00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:51.519
to recognize Mao, you know, as the government.

00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:57.609
And that is as far as. policy was prepared to

00:31:57.609 --> 00:31:59.130
go at this point. But that was not considered

00:31:59.130 --> 00:32:01.670
one of the three options. That is one of the

00:32:01.670 --> 00:32:03.390
three options. That's the first option. Was to

00:32:03.390 --> 00:32:07.089
recognize Mao was the first option. And you couldn't

00:32:07.089 --> 00:32:09.910
do that because there's no government. Oh, okay.

00:32:09.970 --> 00:32:11.750
I'm with you now. Okay. Okay. I was confused

00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:13.329
there, right? I thought it was you couldn't recognize.

00:32:13.549 --> 00:32:16.990
Yeah, okay. Should we recognize Mao? No, we can't.

00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:19.329
There's no government. But that's not an anti

00:32:19.329 --> 00:32:23.490
-Mao statement. That's a... Just that there's

00:32:23.490 --> 00:32:25.390
no practical way of doing it. There's no practical

00:32:25.390 --> 00:32:29.170
mechanism to do so at this time. It doesn't preclude

00:32:29.170 --> 00:32:31.730
you from doing it. But the should we recognize

00:32:31.730 --> 00:32:35.829
Mao argument descends from the idea that these

00:32:35.829 --> 00:32:37.609
are the agrarian reformers who are democratically

00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:39.769
inclined. Now I'm with you. I've got it now.

00:32:39.869 --> 00:32:42.789
And in terms of like anybody who's just like

00:32:42.789 --> 00:32:50.960
pro -Mao in this sense. that's really a minority

00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:52.759
position. I mean, if we're just going to say,

00:32:52.779 --> 00:32:55.559
like, we love Mao, that's very much a minority

00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:01.880
position that it's going to be limited to kind

00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:05.930
of the remnants of the Communist Party. which

00:33:05.930 --> 00:33:08.329
was not as influential as some people would have

00:33:08.329 --> 00:33:10.009
people believe. The American Communist Party.

00:33:10.009 --> 00:33:12.869
The United States Communist Party, yeah. I mean,

00:33:12.890 --> 00:33:15.289
there were people who were following this, but

00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:18.829
it's not the central part of the American Communist

00:33:18.829 --> 00:33:22.789
Party movement. I mean, that's Stalin. It's not

00:33:22.789 --> 00:33:26.490
Mao. Mao doesn't come into it. Like you said

00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:28.650
earlier, the Soviet Union and Stalin himself,

00:33:28.970 --> 00:33:31.150
he was the sugar daddy of all communists, wasn't

00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:35.150
he, at this time? You didn't have any... Other

00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:37.210
option. You didn't have any other options here.

00:33:37.369 --> 00:33:40.769
And I mean, that's going to change. Because nobody

00:33:40.769 --> 00:33:43.849
knew what Maoism was yet or was going to become

00:33:43.849 --> 00:33:46.410
or any of this. I mean, there was a profound

00:33:46.410 --> 00:33:50.150
ignorance about the Chinese Communist Party and

00:33:50.150 --> 00:33:54.769
its officials. And this would persist until probably

00:33:54.769 --> 00:34:00.829
the 80s. And it's better, but it's not what it

00:34:00.829 --> 00:34:20.570
should be. What happened as 1949 progressed and

00:34:20.570 --> 00:34:24.210
the fall of China became imminent reactions became,

00:34:24.369 --> 00:34:27.809
particularly from this third group, even more

00:34:27.809 --> 00:34:31.519
hysterical. People asserted that Mao taking over

00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.239
China would lead to World War III. So the third

00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:39.800
group is the pro -nationalist group, right? Yes.

00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:43.619
So again, this is trying to build a fire under

00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:48.019
Truman and Acheson to do more. Oh my God, the

00:34:48.019 --> 00:34:49.639
nationalists are falling. You guys have to do

00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.579
something about it. Yes, and there's all these

00:34:52.579 --> 00:34:57.059
consequences. And again, as we're seeing... As

00:34:57.059 --> 00:35:03.860
we're seeing in a number of cases, there's no

00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:06.260
factual basis for some of these conclusions here.

00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.900
Like World War III, why is it going to be World

00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:12.420
War III? You know, this is hysterical. This is

00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:15.159
something that will get people's attention and

00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.900
people will look at it and ponder it gravely.

00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:20.559
But it's like, what's your evidence that once

00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.179
Mao takes over China, that World War III is going

00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:26.780
to break out? You know, is he going, you know,

00:35:26.780 --> 00:35:29.639
Mao does not have a navy. He doesn't have an

00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:34.000
air force and he's not going to get planes and

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.760
ships. until after the Soviets decide to give

00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:39.719
him them. And they're not going to be giving

00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.820
them aircraft carriers or anything that can do

00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:48.039
power projection. So again, where is your issue

00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:52.059
with this? Why does World War III come up? Another

00:35:52.059 --> 00:35:54.440
thing, and this is where we see the introduction

00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:57.739
of the domino theory. People don't understand

00:35:57.739 --> 00:36:01.159
that people are taking the monolithic, this is

00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.059
where we're getting in also into monolithic communism,

00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:07.739
but it's like, Okay, this is essentially an internal

00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:11.860
Chinese movement that began in 1919. That's what

00:36:11.860 --> 00:36:15.179
the Communist Party of China is all about. It

00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:19.000
is not about, you know, some sort of thing that

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:21.699
Stalin's pulling, lever that Stalin is pulling

00:36:21.699 --> 00:36:24.780
in order to destabilize the world. It has been

00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:28.300
a process that has been going on for a long time,

00:36:28.420 --> 00:36:31.880
and it is an indigenous one. It is not necessarily

00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:36.880
something that where we would necessarily see

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:41.599
export. And in fact, in Mao's conversations with

00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.940
Stalin, he said, I need three to five years of

00:36:43.940 --> 00:36:46.699
relative peace to rebuild the country. The country's

00:36:46.699 --> 00:36:51.019
shattered. There is no appreciation for just

00:36:51.019 --> 00:36:55.659
what state China is in. Even though we've had

00:36:55.659 --> 00:36:58.739
people on the ground and doing this, there are

00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:01.139
statements that are totally ill -informed, and

00:37:01.139 --> 00:37:04.900
those are the two most hysterical ones. But they're

00:37:04.900 --> 00:37:09.559
asserted very loudly in the press and by people

00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:13.039
who are becoming part of this China lobby that's

00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:16.500
going to be... trying to support Chiang Kai -shek

00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.280
and his wife. Let's consider the domino theory

00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:21.159
for a second. Yeah, I was going to ask that.

00:37:21.579 --> 00:37:23.139
So go ahead. What were you going to ask? No,

00:37:23.139 --> 00:37:26.820
you go. Well, I was going to say that, so the

00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.599
domino theory, the idea was that one by one,

00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:32.159
like a set of dominoes falling, the world was

00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.420
going to slowly go communist. Yes. And the only

00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:37.710
way to stop that was to stop it. wherever it

00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:39.429
was starting, wherever the first domino was.

00:37:39.489 --> 00:37:42.230
Yeah, by force. And if you lose, if you don't

00:37:42.230 --> 00:37:43.650
stop it at the first domino, you've got to stop

00:37:43.650 --> 00:37:45.090
it at the second, the third, the fourth, etc.

00:37:45.389 --> 00:37:49.449
And that was the idea. The domino theory is widely

00:37:49.449 --> 00:37:51.690
discredited now, but it was a very real thing

00:37:51.690 --> 00:37:56.829
for people back in circa 1950 and on beyond that,

00:37:56.869 --> 00:38:00.329
into the 60s and beyond. One thing I'll say about

00:38:00.329 --> 00:38:02.949
the domino theory, one part of it that was a

00:38:02.949 --> 00:38:05.409
little bit right. was that, in fact, China went

00:38:05.409 --> 00:38:07.630
communist and Southeast Asia went communist.

00:38:07.829 --> 00:38:10.769
Well, we helped. Well, just leaving that aside,

00:38:10.909 --> 00:38:12.829
though. Just leaving that aside, though. It did

00:38:12.829 --> 00:38:16.429
go communist. So people would say, well, see,

00:38:16.489 --> 00:38:18.869
it was partly right. Well, it didn't get to Burma.

00:38:19.289 --> 00:38:23.849
It didn't get to Malaysia. Taiwan. It didn't

00:38:23.849 --> 00:38:27.949
get to Taiwan. Thailand. Thailand, sorry. Yeah,

00:38:27.969 --> 00:38:31.780
it didn't get to Thailand. And dominoes did stop

00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:34.179
falling. That's one thing. Although some dominoes

00:38:34.179 --> 00:38:35.940
fell, but did you understand what happened there

00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:38.079
is the other question. And the thing was, is

00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:39.820
we were still thinking about that in terms of

00:38:39.820 --> 00:38:41.460
monolithic communism. Okay, the communists, the

00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:43.940
communists have China now. Now the communists

00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:46.159
have Vietnam. Now they have Laos. Now they have

00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:48.559
Cambodia. Burma will be next. Thailand will be

00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:50.800
next. You know, whatever, right? Well, the thing

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:52.739
about it was that what was misunderstood is that

00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:55.079
these were nationalist movements with a communist

00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.260
ideology. Yes. Yes, they gave some lip service

00:38:58.260 --> 00:38:59.739
to international communism like that. It was

00:38:59.739 --> 00:39:01.619
an ideological thing. But their basic thing was

00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:05.559
about China, about Vietnam, about Laos, about

00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:10.179
Cambodia. And so that's what was wrong with the

00:39:10.179 --> 00:39:12.320
domino theory. There were some superficial things

00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:14.820
that looked right. Communism took over China.

00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:17.179
Oh, now look at Vietnam. Now look at Southeast

00:39:17.179 --> 00:39:20.199
Asia. Yeah. But that's superficial because it

00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.019
doesn't really get at what was really going on.

00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:23.960
And we're not here to talk all about Southeast

00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:27.170
Asia or anything. It's just interesting to put

00:39:27.170 --> 00:39:30.809
that perspective on it. Well, something to consider

00:39:30.809 --> 00:39:34.750
is that if you're talking about this as an intellectual

00:39:34.750 --> 00:39:38.030
matter, if you're going to be looking at any

00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:42.469
group that's going to be opposed to traditional

00:39:42.469 --> 00:39:45.190
imperialism, which is what these national movements

00:39:45.190 --> 00:39:49.650
are a reaction to, the only game in town are

00:39:49.650 --> 00:39:51.989
the communists at this point. Now, they have

00:39:51.989 --> 00:39:55.340
their own. reason for like promoting those types

00:39:55.340 --> 00:39:59.900
of things because it disrupts the the life and

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:03.219
economies of the adversarial capitalist powers

00:40:03.219 --> 00:40:06.940
but at the same time these local these local

00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:09.880
movements they see something that they can build

00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.239
on you know It gives you a franchise you can

00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.139
use. It gives you a franchise, yes. To get your

00:40:17.139 --> 00:40:19.679
way, right? I mean, the same happens in the Middle

00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.119
East as well with some of those movements that

00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.940
come in post -colonial that are going to happen

00:40:25.940 --> 00:40:28.699
during the 50s and so forth. And sure, there's

00:40:28.699 --> 00:40:30.280
some common communist things about it. They're

00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.179
not so into private property. They want to do

00:40:32.179 --> 00:40:34.119
land reform. They want to take land away from

00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:35.099
the rich people and give it to the poor people.

00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:37.199
They do things like that. Sure, they do communist

00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.679
things. They are communists. And it's autocratic,

00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:42.420
though. And it's autocratic. It always has that

00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:44.840
feature to it, too. But it's based fundamentally

00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:49.420
on nationalism, on anti -colonialism, on things

00:40:49.420 --> 00:40:51.559
like that. If you're going to just view it as

00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:53.639
an international communist movement, you're going

00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:57.400
to miss a few things. And we did. Yeah. Seriously.

00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:01.260
You maybe could have made nice with some of these

00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:05.099
communists. which they were, but gotten them

00:41:05.099 --> 00:41:07.179
to support them in their anti -colonial efforts,

00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:08.380
they might have liked you better afterwards.

00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:11.400
You might not have had the wars and things that

00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.940
you had later on. What we had under Roosevelt,

00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:17.579
and even though we talk about Roosevelt and the

00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:21.199
fourth policeman idea as being totally impractical

00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.480
and totally unrealistic, Roosevelt did get the

00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.380
big picture that anti -colonialism is coming,

00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:29.199
and he wanted to be at the forefront. He just

00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:35.059
didn't quite... have a way to get involved in

00:41:35.059 --> 00:41:39.719
this and his his only way was to find somebody

00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:43.980
who is a non -white asiatic power and all he's

00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:48.320
got to work with is in terms of independent countries

00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:51.760
or china and japan and japan's the enemy so that

00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.849
leaves you with china but it's like When we go

00:41:54.849 --> 00:41:58.449
in after the war, it's like we're put in this

00:41:58.449 --> 00:42:01.969
position, which sometimes we take the anti -colonial

00:42:01.969 --> 00:42:06.289
view, say with Suez, which was a 1956 crisis

00:42:06.289 --> 00:42:11.130
involving an attempt by the British, the French,

00:42:11.230 --> 00:42:14.710
with some help from the Israelis to retake the

00:42:14.710 --> 00:42:17.650
Suez Canal from the Egyptians. But then we also

00:42:17.650 --> 00:42:22.099
get with Indochina. That's another matter where...

00:42:22.099 --> 00:42:25.460
Indochina is Vietnam. French Indochina is what

00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:29.019
is now Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. And the French

00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:32.139
were trying to reassert control, and we supported

00:42:32.139 --> 00:42:35.599
their efforts. Not because we wanted to support

00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.139
French colonialism, but because people who wanted

00:42:38.139 --> 00:42:40.320
to reestablish the French Empire were also trying

00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:43.380
to beat the communists, and we wanted to stop

00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:46.159
international communism. As we called it. As

00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:51.130
we called it. So we had the same... separate

00:42:51.130 --> 00:42:53.650
goals for what was going to happen in French

00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:56.650
Indochina, but they converged because in both

00:42:56.650 --> 00:42:59.269
cases you're fighting the communists. Yeah, and

00:42:59.269 --> 00:43:01.210
most people will not even realize when you talk

00:43:01.210 --> 00:43:03.590
about the Vietnam War that the French were there

00:43:03.590 --> 00:43:07.570
way before for a century or something like that.

00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:10.369
And the French were bastards. They were absolute

00:43:10.369 --> 00:43:16.719
bastards in Indochina. In Vietnam, they were

00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:19.159
absolute, I mean, they treated the people there

00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:21.699
really like animals. I mean, there was racism

00:43:21.699 --> 00:43:24.579
in the British Empire, but people were at least

00:43:24.579 --> 00:43:28.260
recognized as humans, an inferior form of humans

00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:33.280
in their world. But the way that the French treated

00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:35.840
the Vietnamese, it was just like something that

00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:38.320
you would, you know, like a hamster or something

00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:42.159
that you would like tease or provoke or what

00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:48.000
have you there. These were people that lacked

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.460
humanity in the way that they ran things there.

00:43:51.619 --> 00:43:53.739
I didn't mean to derail us into a big thing about

00:43:53.739 --> 00:43:55.760
Southeast Asia because we're trying to hear,

00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.139
but it shows you, you know, it just shows you

00:43:58.139 --> 00:44:01.340
how these things all. work together to drive

00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:03.219
the United States toward a way of approaching

00:44:03.219 --> 00:44:05.500
these things, which on sober second thought years

00:44:05.500 --> 00:44:08.800
later, wasn't a very good one. But you can't

00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:12.280
understand things of the time without understanding

00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:14.840
the thinking of the people at the time. I know

00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:19.050
that our focus is China, but I do not. want people

00:44:19.050 --> 00:44:21.610
to come away from listening to the podcast thinking

00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:24.050
that we're only talking about china that china

00:44:24.050 --> 00:44:27.489
is the only application for this and so you bringing

00:44:27.489 --> 00:44:30.230
up southeast asia i think it's a good thing so

00:44:30.230 --> 00:44:33.570
um it's all part of a bigger it's part of a bigger

00:44:33.570 --> 00:44:36.329
issue that we're trying to address in terms of

00:44:36.329 --> 00:44:38.869
attitude understanding those kind of things towards

00:44:38.869 --> 00:44:41.530
other countries i mean you know if we if just

00:44:41.530 --> 00:44:45.090
one to belabor one more point on vietnam Poor

00:44:45.090 --> 00:44:48.110
old Ho Chi Minh had been approaching us over

00:44:48.110 --> 00:44:52.070
and over again like, hey, I want to play on your

00:44:52.070 --> 00:44:56.150
team. And people just freaking ignored him until

00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:59.849
we're fighting him. I mean, Ho Chi Minh was making

00:44:59.849 --> 00:45:02.289
overtures to the United States beginning in 1919

00:45:02.289 --> 00:45:06.329
at Versailles, which he had made a special effort

00:45:06.329 --> 00:45:09.809
to go to Paris to try and engage Woodrow Wilson,

00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:14.679
who had very little time for him. What we were

00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:20.300
looking at after Mao did declare government on

00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:24.920
1 October was to try and— 1949. 1949, to prevent

00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:30.659
recognition of this new government by our allies

00:45:30.659 --> 00:45:34.400
here. I mean, who wanted to prevent it? We did.

00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:37.179
The United States wanted— Particularly Dean Acheson

00:45:37.179 --> 00:45:39.159
wanted to prevent it. Dean Acheson, okay. So

00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:43.929
Dean Acheson made overtures to— to Ernest Bevin,

00:45:44.130 --> 00:45:48.389
who is the secretary, or he is the foreign minister

00:45:48.389 --> 00:45:56.170
for the British. And Bevin is a staunch anti

00:45:56.170 --> 00:46:01.530
-communist. He was... As only a British labor

00:46:01.530 --> 00:46:04.550
leader could be. That was his background. But

00:46:04.550 --> 00:46:06.929
even then, the British felt like they had more

00:46:06.929 --> 00:46:09.309
interest in sort of maintaining a stable relationship

00:46:09.309 --> 00:46:12.170
with Hong Kong and various trade issues that

00:46:12.170 --> 00:46:15.269
they had with China. That was kind of, if we

00:46:15.269 --> 00:46:17.929
think back to the first episode, the sort of

00:46:17.929 --> 00:46:21.869
things that were driving British interest in

00:46:21.869 --> 00:46:31.039
China was trade. several months of the government

00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:34.579
being declared. This was a total defeat for the

00:46:34.579 --> 00:46:37.320
United States. We are not going to recognize

00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:41.260
China, just to look ahead. The People's Republic

00:46:41.260 --> 00:46:43.300
of China. The People's Republic of China. As

00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:46.639
the legitimate government of China. Until Jimmy

00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:49.340
Carter is in the White House. They were very

00:46:49.340 --> 00:46:53.440
proud of that too. But Mao at this point, if

00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.539
we want to look at where his attitudes are, he

00:46:56.539 --> 00:47:00.889
perceives You know, some of this is Stalin kind

00:47:00.889 --> 00:47:04.469
of sweetening the pot there, but he perceives

00:47:04.469 --> 00:47:06.789
that the United States is very eager to overthrow

00:47:06.789 --> 00:47:11.469
him. He is unlikely to trust the European former

00:47:11.469 --> 00:47:15.489
colonial powers. So that leads him to have only

00:47:15.489 --> 00:47:18.389
one friend and one friend only, and that is the

00:47:18.389 --> 00:47:23.769
USSR, the Soviet Union. U .S. didn't have...

00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:27.780
any indication of what Mao's thoughts were at

00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:31.559
the time in terms of having deep understanding

00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:35.519
of Mao. And we had kind of been withdrawing forces

00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:41.079
from the region as Chiang Kai -shek's government

00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:46.360
and forces are disappearing. But, you know, one

00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:50.019
of those guys who had made friends with the communists

00:47:50.019 --> 00:47:56.269
back in... during World War II as an envoy might

00:47:56.269 --> 00:48:01.409
have been useful at this point. And who are you

00:48:01.409 --> 00:48:03.989
talking about? The China hands. The China hands,

00:48:03.989 --> 00:48:06.449
the people that had been telling Stilwell that

00:48:06.449 --> 00:48:10.239
these were agrarian reformers who had... Democratic

00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:13.619
inclination. Yes, but they also had established

00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:17.320
some sort of relationship. We had people in the

00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:20.280
U .S. government who had a relationship with

00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:22.980
the Chinese communists. During World War II,

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.400
they were shuttling back and forth between Stilwell's

00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:29.539
headquarters and the communist capital. Yeah,

00:48:30.179 --> 00:48:31.900
all the time they were shuttling back and forth.

00:48:32.139 --> 00:48:36.380
Yes, and so this... is a missed opportunity,

00:48:36.519 --> 00:48:38.440
I would say. Maybe this is something that is

00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:43.940
not realistic on my part to wish for or to hope

00:48:43.940 --> 00:48:46.559
for, but I still think that that would have been

00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:51.599
a good thing for us to have considered. Right.

00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:54.460
So those folks existed, but they didn't really

00:48:54.460 --> 00:48:57.869
have any voice. In policy matters. In policy

00:48:57.869 --> 00:49:00.670
matters. They were around saying what they said,

00:49:00.690 --> 00:49:05.090
but they had no voice. They had a kind of negative

00:49:05.090 --> 00:49:08.469
capability about the abuses of Chiang Kai -shek,

00:49:08.489 --> 00:49:11.369
and they were involved in the China White Paper,

00:49:11.489 --> 00:49:17.309
which the China lobby is basically saying. the

00:49:17.309 --> 00:49:19.369
conclusions are all wrong. We didn't do enough

00:49:19.369 --> 00:49:22.489
for China. We needed to do more, which... Which

00:49:22.489 --> 00:49:24.630
means for nationalist China. The China lobby

00:49:24.630 --> 00:49:26.210
is for the Chiang Kai -shek government. Yes,

00:49:26.250 --> 00:49:27.210
for the Chiang Kai -shek government. We didn't

00:49:27.210 --> 00:49:28.570
do enough for the Chiang Kai -shek government.

00:49:28.690 --> 00:49:33.230
We should do more. And all we needed to always...

00:49:33.469 --> 00:49:35.690
was just a little bit more. Just a little bit

00:49:35.690 --> 00:49:37.909
more. A little bit more. All we need, this could

00:49:37.909 --> 00:49:39.710
be done on the cheap, even though we've spent

00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:41.869
billions of dollars doing things on the cheap

00:49:41.869 --> 00:49:44.769
here. Cash my check. Cash my check. Which is

00:49:44.769 --> 00:49:46.130
what Claire Chanel promised, right? Give me a

00:49:46.130 --> 00:49:47.750
few planes and I'll win this thing for you. And

00:49:47.750 --> 00:49:50.349
we got the same thing from CIA as well. All we

00:49:50.349 --> 00:49:53.750
needed to do was find some generals. that were

00:49:53.750 --> 00:49:57.190
still on the mainland. And Chiang didn't like

00:49:57.190 --> 00:50:01.090
this. He did not like this idea of, like, all

00:50:01.090 --> 00:50:03.210
of a sudden, all this U .S. largesse is going

00:50:03.210 --> 00:50:05.349
to go to a different general, and he's going

00:50:05.349 --> 00:50:07.590
to have no control over it, and there'll be other

00:50:07.590 --> 00:50:09.730
generals that are with him that are not sharing

00:50:09.730 --> 00:50:14.289
in the bounty of this. So even as he is sitting

00:50:14.289 --> 00:50:18.969
in Taiwan, you know... totally self -unaware

00:50:18.969 --> 00:50:23.750
that this approach has not served him well, this

00:50:23.750 --> 00:50:26.710
is still a concern for him. But this is deeply

00:50:26.710 --> 00:50:31.070
ingrained in military culture in China. At least,

00:50:31.090 --> 00:50:32.730
I don't know about the communist side, but in

00:50:32.730 --> 00:50:34.909
the nationalist side, and the warlords before

00:50:34.909 --> 00:50:37.809
them, and the imperial time before them. We've

00:50:37.809 --> 00:50:39.510
talked about this over and over again in this

00:50:39.510 --> 00:50:43.610
series, that idea that the largesse comes to

00:50:43.610 --> 00:50:45.289
me, and that's my political power within the

00:50:45.289 --> 00:50:48.010
system. And I don't want to use it up and get

00:50:48.010 --> 00:50:50.449
it all beaten up fighting somebody. Fiefdoms.

00:50:50.449 --> 00:50:54.090
And it's my fiefdom. It's my power base is having

00:50:54.090 --> 00:50:56.980
that stuff. And even though those guys over there

00:50:56.980 --> 00:50:58.619
are fighting my enemy, I don't want to give it

00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.719
to them. No. We've seen it over and over again.

00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:04.420
Because I've lost control and I am no longer

00:51:04.420 --> 00:51:08.619
– It's not about us winning the war. It's about

00:51:08.619 --> 00:51:10.880
me winning it. Yes. If they win the war, then

00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.480
I lose. Even though they're on my side. They're

00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:15.480
on my side because now they're in charge of my

00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:19.119
country instead of me being in charge. So it's

00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:22.150
a whole – You know what? We're laughing. It's

00:51:22.150 --> 00:51:24.730
an understandable – if you change your mindset,

00:51:24.909 --> 00:51:27.090
try to get in their minds, it's an understandable

00:51:27.090 --> 00:51:32.010
way of looking at your role in your society,

00:51:32.070 --> 00:51:34.730
I guess, and how your society works. It makes

00:51:34.730 --> 00:51:37.389
your brain hurt. From our perspective, I think

00:51:37.389 --> 00:51:39.269
that it would work that way. But once you get

00:51:39.269 --> 00:51:42.190
inside the way they think, it kind of makes sense,

00:51:42.210 --> 00:51:45.360
I guess. But it's not an effective way to fight

00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:50.260
an enemy. Well, you see, that's the big problem

00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:54.440
that we're having with this. It's like we're

00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:56.360
trying to come up with an effective way to fight

00:51:56.360 --> 00:52:01.460
the enemy. Culture that has driven relationships

00:52:01.460 --> 00:52:05.110
within China. which we do not appreciate at all,

00:52:05.250 --> 00:52:07.610
even with having people there, even with having

00:52:07.610 --> 00:52:10.090
people having experience. Well, it's deeply alien

00:52:10.090 --> 00:52:13.590
to us to look at a war that way or military forces

00:52:13.590 --> 00:52:17.650
that way or how you supply a military or fund

00:52:17.650 --> 00:52:20.269
a military that way. But it creates problems

00:52:20.269 --> 00:52:24.530
when you don't take into account, and again,

00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:28.010
it is not just China that we're dealing with

00:52:28.010 --> 00:52:33.309
in terms of not appreciating local culture, and

00:52:33.309 --> 00:52:36.250
how people relate to each other within the culture.

00:52:36.550 --> 00:52:39.550
It's not just China. Again, if we look through

00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:43.610
the 20th and 21st century, our inability to appreciate

00:52:43.610 --> 00:52:46.510
these things, not just in Asia, but throughout

00:52:46.510 --> 00:52:49.150
the world, this creates problems for ourselves,

00:52:49.309 --> 00:52:53.670
which we go around and are surprised by constantly.

00:52:54.130 --> 00:52:57.469
We ought not be surprised. We ought to take these

00:52:57.469 --> 00:53:00.409
things into account and prioritize them in terms

00:53:00.409 --> 00:53:03.519
of developing. deep and penetrating understanding

00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:18.599
of friends and adversaries. Before we finish

00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:23.760
up this episode, I'd like to leave it in Moscow

00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:32.940
in 1949. 1950, Mao decides after he forms the

00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:37.440
government, his first official act is to go to

00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:41.760
Moscow by train to meet with the man with the

00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:45.760
plan, Joseph Stalin. And again, he basically

00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:52.079
has only Stalin as an ally at this point, just

00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:56.500
based on his worldview, thinking that we're out

00:53:56.500 --> 00:54:01.880
to get him. Stalin tended to view Mao as a supplicant.

00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:06.340
And this was not really Mao's, Mao did not really,

00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:09.539
Mao was one, but he didn't enjoy being treated

00:54:09.539 --> 00:54:12.659
that way. It was when Stalin had his birthday,

00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:19.199
when Mao was up there in Moscow, and Mao was

00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.539
kind of made to utter some lines at the birthday

00:54:22.539 --> 00:54:26.780
celebration of Bolshoi. praising Stalin as the

00:54:26.780 --> 00:54:30.139
great leader and so forth. It was almost like

00:54:30.139 --> 00:54:33.619
he was a performing dog. But when he wasn't brought

00:54:33.619 --> 00:54:38.239
out for ceremonial purposes, Mao was kind of

00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:42.139
treated like an afterthought, a loose end that

00:54:42.139 --> 00:54:46.239
needed tying up. So the quote that apparently

00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:50.260
the Russians knew this as well because the place

00:54:50.260 --> 00:54:54.190
was where... Mao was staying was heavily bugged

00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:58.610
and all the communications were intercepted.

00:54:58.690 --> 00:55:01.489
But Mao basically in frustration while he was

00:55:01.489 --> 00:55:03.789
there said, I did not come to Russia to eat,

00:55:03.929 --> 00:55:08.809
sleep, and shit. So he was waiting to talk to

00:55:08.809 --> 00:55:11.730
– he was constantly on tether hooks waiting to

00:55:11.730 --> 00:55:14.590
talk to somebody like Stalin or somebody important

00:55:14.590 --> 00:55:18.349
who he could negotiate with. So Mao was an earthy

00:55:18.349 --> 00:55:21.409
man. Yes. We earlier observed that Ho Chi Minh

00:55:21.409 --> 00:55:23.650
was an earthy man as well. So Mao was as well.

00:55:23.690 --> 00:55:25.730
It's a communist leader thing, being earthy.

00:55:25.829 --> 00:55:28.670
Yes. Well, particularly if you're a base supporter

00:55:28.670 --> 00:55:33.550
of peasants. Yes. Yes. So Mao comes in, and I

00:55:33.550 --> 00:55:37.309
mean, this is, again, how little things change.

00:55:37.769 --> 00:55:40.630
Mao comes in and immediately requests $300 million

00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:44.889
in credits from Stalin. And Stalin looks at him

00:55:44.889 --> 00:55:47.889
and he says, what are you going to use it for?

00:55:48.829 --> 00:55:52.429
Well, Mao did need – have an idea that he needed

00:55:52.429 --> 00:55:56.110
planes and he needed a navy. But he basically

00:55:56.110 --> 00:55:59.929
– his answer to this was, we'll figure it out.

00:56:00.030 --> 00:56:01.769
Just give us the money and we'll figure it out.

00:56:01.909 --> 00:56:05.050
Because Mao wanted to complete the conquest of

00:56:05.050 --> 00:56:08.429
all of China. Yeah. For the PRC government. He

00:56:08.429 --> 00:56:10.469
wanted to extinguish the Republic of China, the

00:56:10.469 --> 00:56:14.670
Kuomintang. Yeah. He wanted to – the nationalist

00:56:14.670 --> 00:56:17.199
China. They did not control everything at that

00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:18.820
point. There were some offshore islands. And,

00:56:18.860 --> 00:56:20.420
of course, there was Taiwan that was still under

00:56:20.420 --> 00:56:23.380
the Republic of China's control. So to get there,

00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:24.699
he's going to need an air force and he's going

00:56:24.699 --> 00:56:26.980
to need a navy. So you can see why he's focusing

00:56:26.980 --> 00:56:29.719
on that at this point. The nationalists were

00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:33.000
able to do some blockade actions off of Shanghai.

00:56:33.980 --> 00:56:38.260
And one of their chief victims was a U .S. merchant

00:56:38.260 --> 00:56:42.559
ship pulling into Shanghai. This is sort of like

00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:46.710
how disruptive everything is. And, yeah, there

00:56:46.710 --> 00:56:49.769
was a huge shell that was fired at this particular

00:56:49.769 --> 00:56:52.869
merchant ship. But that just showed you just

00:56:52.869 --> 00:56:57.050
who had the command of the seas in the area.

00:56:58.369 --> 00:57:01.190
It wasn't Mao. Did this upset the United States?

00:57:01.409 --> 00:57:04.130
We kind of tended to overlook it at this point.

00:57:04.210 --> 00:57:06.670
Okay. All right. You know, it's like it's, you

00:57:06.670 --> 00:57:09.889
know, fog of war, et cetera. Oh, all right. Mistakes

00:57:09.889 --> 00:57:14.329
were made. Mistakes were made. Okay. So Stalin

00:57:14.329 --> 00:57:16.650
kind of, you could imagine Stalin kind of looking

00:57:16.650 --> 00:57:19.710
at this request from Mao for all this money and

00:57:19.710 --> 00:57:23.070
these resources and things. And he said, well,

00:57:23.170 --> 00:57:26.050
you know, you're in a pretty good shape, that

00:57:26.050 --> 00:57:29.269
he should be fined. Because the United States

00:57:29.269 --> 00:57:33.289
really doesn't want war with you, which probably,

00:57:33.510 --> 00:57:36.469
which was a change in his assessment that had

00:57:36.469 --> 00:57:39.400
been provided to Mao before. He said the Europeans

00:57:39.400 --> 00:57:41.960
are exhausted. They're trying to rebuild. So

00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:45.360
is Japan. And I think this is an interesting

00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:49.960
statement about what Stalin intended for Mao.

00:57:50.420 --> 00:57:52.960
He says the only thing you have to worry about

00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:56.320
is North Korea. And by that meaning North Korea

00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:58.519
invading you because you're the only ones who

00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:01.159
are on your borders who have a kind of martial

00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:07.760
spirit that wants to do something. Stalin is

00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:14.480
the person who had control of Kim. That would

00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.159
be Kim Il -sung, and he was actually the founder

00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:21.860
of North Korea. Kim was constantly asking permission

00:58:21.860 --> 00:58:23.699
to go and invade the South, and Stalin was like,

00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.920
no, no, no, not yet, not yet, not yet. And then

00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:33.400
eventually he does. On June 25th, 1950. North

00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.480
Korea attacks South Korea. And Stalin's take

00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:38.579
with Mao was, and now what are you going to do

00:58:38.579 --> 00:58:41.679
about this? You know, he was very much, you know,

00:58:41.719 --> 00:58:44.719
Mao liked to keep people, I mean, Stalin liked

00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:50.420
to keep people kind of off -center. And so we

00:58:50.420 --> 00:58:54.980
have this invasion of Korea that happens. And

00:58:54.980 --> 00:58:58.440
I would argue that it is as much for the benefit

00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:03.099
of... of Stalin's relationship with Mao as it

00:59:03.099 --> 00:59:05.840
is Stalin's relationship with the United States.

00:59:06.619 --> 00:59:11.440
So this actually kind of, in terms of how it

00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:15.960
affects the United States, we have a series of

00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:20.179
three events. We have the Russians gaining their

00:59:20.179 --> 00:59:24.800
own nuclear capability. We have the fall of China.

00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:29.199
And we have the invasion of Korea. These are

00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:31.780
the events that people draw together and conclude

00:59:31.780 --> 00:59:34.980
there is something called monolithic communism

00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:38.579
out there. And this is something I think we're

00:59:38.579 --> 00:59:42.539
going to get into. But that war actually created

00:59:42.539 --> 00:59:46.480
and solidified this. This also fostered the blacklist

00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:53.550
and the Red Scare within the United States. The

00:59:53.550 --> 00:59:56.309
irony of all this is we are going into China

00:59:56.309 --> 01:00:02.750
back in like, you know, the 1800s, during the

01:00:02.750 --> 01:00:06.050
19th century, trying to change China with our

01:00:06.050 --> 01:00:09.750
missionaries and technical capabilities and things

01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:13.960
like that. China is actually exerting more of

01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.239
a control over our society than we are ever able

01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:19.840
to exercise over their society as we see what

01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:24.420
happens at the end of 1949 and by the middle

01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:28.280
of 1950. And what happens in the Korean War?

01:00:28.539 --> 01:00:32.179
The North invades the South, the United Nations,

01:00:32.179 --> 01:00:35.519
in June 25, 1950. The United Nations responds,

01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:39.559
drives the North back up to the Yalu River, which

01:00:39.559 --> 01:00:43.289
is the border with China. And much to the surprise

01:00:43.289 --> 01:00:45.449
and discomfiture of the United Nations forces,

01:00:45.809 --> 01:00:49.809
China intervenes in the Korean War. With volunteers.

01:00:49.809 --> 01:00:52.449
The People's Republic of China intervenes. Not

01:00:52.449 --> 01:00:54.929
as a state, but volunteers. In October 1950.

01:00:55.829 --> 01:01:01.369
And shoves us all the way back. And so we did

01:01:01.369 --> 01:01:05.650
not realize the acrimony that the People's Republic

01:01:05.650 --> 01:01:09.909
of China held toward the United States. fully

01:01:09.909 --> 01:01:11.969
realize it, really get our arms around it at

01:01:11.969 --> 01:01:15.510
all, until that intervention happened. It shocked

01:01:15.510 --> 01:01:19.809
us, and it led to a break with the Chinese communists

01:01:19.809 --> 01:01:23.530
by the United States that would last for 20 years.

01:01:24.230 --> 01:01:28.170
Now in response to this, and this too will have

01:01:28.170 --> 01:01:32.949
a big impact on U .S. foreign policy in the region

01:01:32.949 --> 01:01:36.210
and our relationship with China, the solution

01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:41.260
that kind of came to pass that both people like

01:01:41.260 --> 01:01:47.099
Acheson, who were realist, and people like the

01:01:47.099 --> 01:01:51.099
China lobby, which were pro Chiang Kai -shek

01:01:51.099 --> 01:01:54.760
and his government on Taiwan, was to establish

01:01:54.760 --> 01:01:57.460
a kind of buffer zone that surrounded China.

01:01:57.659 --> 01:02:02.500
It stretched from India all the way through to

01:02:02.500 --> 01:02:09.989
South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan. And our intention

01:02:09.989 --> 01:02:13.869
by establishing this was to create a kind of

01:02:13.869 --> 01:02:18.449
means of containing Asiatic communism the same

01:02:18.449 --> 01:02:22.130
as we were doing in Europe with containment over

01:02:22.130 --> 01:02:26.409
in the European theater. The area that's going

01:02:26.409 --> 01:02:28.849
to get us particularly excited is, of course,

01:02:28.869 --> 01:02:32.510
going to be Indochina or Vietnam, which is embarking

01:02:32.510 --> 01:02:38.079
on its own civil war. After they managed to throw

01:02:38.079 --> 01:02:42.340
the French out in the early 1950s. When was Dien

01:02:42.340 --> 01:02:45.820
Bien Phu? 1954. 1954. Which was the decisive

01:02:45.820 --> 01:02:48.159
battle. The Battle of Dien Bien Phu was the decisive

01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:52.159
battle in French Indochina that finally defeated

01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:54.400
the French. The French gave up on retaining it

01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:57.940
after that. And that's what gave Vietnam, Laos,

01:02:57.940 --> 01:03:01.019
and Cambodia their independence. But with Vietnam

01:03:01.019 --> 01:03:06.260
divided into two zones. Yes. So we will look

01:03:06.260 --> 01:03:09.760
at some of the implications of all of these things

01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:34.900
in our next episode. Either way, email us at

01:03:34.900 --> 01:03:38.980
usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know what

01:03:38.980 --> 01:03:41.579
you think. Also, let us know about anything you

01:03:41.579 --> 01:03:43.840
think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to know

01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:47.119
about that too. And of course, please like and

01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:49.019
subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

01:03:49.019 --> 01:03:52.500
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

01:03:52.500 --> 01:03:59.280
.usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself,

01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:01.480
Blake Hinckley. Till next time.