304: A Christian Nation? - The Founders, Part 2

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The purpose of separation of church and state

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is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless

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strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with

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blood for centuries. James Madison Welcome to

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the United States of Amnesia. We are the podcast

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that reminds us of what we have forgotten. It

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is often said that history repeats itself. Mark

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Twain allegedly said that history doesn't repeat

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itself, but it rhymes. But over time, many topics

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have become clouded by biases and oversimplifications,

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or have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. In the last episode,

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we explored the religious views of five of our

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founding fathers, namely Benjamin Franklin, Thomas

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Jefferson, George Washington, Samuel Adams, and

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his cousin John Adams. In this episode, we will

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explore the religious views of five more of our

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founding fathers, namely Thomas Paine, Patrick

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Henry, George Mason, James Madison, and Alexander

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Hamilton. Let's start with Thomas Paine. Here

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is the religion of deism, superior to the Christian

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religion. It is free from all those invented

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and torturing articles that shock our reason

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and injure our humanity. Its creed is pure and

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sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there

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it rests. It honors reason as the choicest gift

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of God to man. And this is from Thomas Paine's

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Age of Enlightenment, which we're going to discuss,

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his controversial book on religion in the modern

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age here. So Thomas Paine is the author of Common

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Sense, The Crisis, The Age of Reason, and this

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last book was strongly opposed to what we saw

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in our last program by Samuel Adams. And he led

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probably a more disorderly life than any of the

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founding fathers. He's dismissed later on by

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Theodore Roosevelt as a nasty little atheist.

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But Paine did not regard himself as an atheist.

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He used his experience as a widely successful

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pamphleteer and advocate for the cause of the

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American Revolution to become almost a professional

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revolutionary. Think of Thomas Paine as kind

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of like Che Guevara, the Che Guevara of the 18th

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century, wandering around the world. First, he's

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in America. Then he makes his way to hang out

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with radicals over in England. And then he's

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over in the French Revolution, where he gets

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into a lot of trouble over there, which we'll

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get into. This is probably a step up in his mind

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from his original career, corset maker. Yes,

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Thomas Paine started out as the maker of ladies'

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undergarments, or foundation garments. Paine

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was arrested in 1793 by the French Revolutionary

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Forces, placed under sentence of death, and only

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released at the urging of James Monroe, who was

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American minister in France and later the fourth

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president. Paine stayed with Monroe and his family

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for nearly two years until 1795 after his release.

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And this is when he published his critique of

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Christianity, The Age of Reason. outraged the

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more orthodox members of the public with its

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assault on Christianity and organized religion.

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Specifically, Paine rejected divine revelation

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and claimed that tales of Christ's miracles,

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resurrection, and divinity had no more value

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than pagan myths, asserted that churches oppressed

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and exploited their members to the benefit only

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of the clergy, and proclaimed deism to be superior

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in every way to Christianity, which he regarded

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as unreconcilable with it. This put the founding

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fathers, who were all friends with Paine and

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had admired his stance on American independence

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during the Revolution, in a difficult position.

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Paine was actually born a Quaker, and he felt

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his book, even though it's controversial and

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denounces Christianity, would do a great deal

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to combat what he saw as a rising tide of outright

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atheism. Again, we look at certain, you know,

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when we... dissect these beliefs of pain, they're

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not at all at odds with the belief structure

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of the other founding fathers. Miracles he doesn't

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like. Adams made his comment about, you know,

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organized religion suppressing free thinking

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or thought. Pain, though he has a reputation

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as a radical, these beliefs are kind of in line

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with the founding fathers, except he expresses

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them very forcefully. outright denounces christianity

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but he thought he was fighting against atheism

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he's fighting against atheism but he kind of

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gets accused of it yes he gets accused of it

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that's the irony here he he you know he he creates

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a lot of problems by basically going a lot further

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in expressing shared beliefs that that other

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founding fathers held but held Quietly. Discreetly.

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Yes, very quietly. Again, there is a big difference

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between talking about deism in a letter to a

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friend who's like -minded to writing a whole

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book about it and basically saying Christianity

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is a bad religion. So this might sound subtle

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to us, but it's kind of, I think it's a big deal.

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It's kind of a bridge too far in terms of the

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ruling orthodoxy of the time. Paine's status

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as a founding father occurred during the American

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Revolution, where both the crisis and common

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sense were popular pamphlets that made the case

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for independence. Some scholars have argued that

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Jefferson deliberately adopted the simpler style

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that Paine kind of patented. in common sense

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when he wrote the Declaration of Independence.

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And people have compared Jefferson's writings

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beforehand. They're very convoluted, lots of

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dependent clauses, the kinds of things that were

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typical of 18th century educated writing with

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what the Declaration was, and they see certain

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parallels there. Common sense did include some

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deist references, but this Since it's not the

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central feature of the pamphlet, it did not create

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any known controversies during the American Revolution.

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Common Sense has remained in print since its

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initial publication, and it remains the best

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-selling work by an American of all time. Something

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to consider here. F. Scott Fitzgerald famously

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observed, somewhat pessimistically, that there

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were no second acts in America. Had he lived

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longer, he might have changed his mind. Paine's

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second and even third acts are very different

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from his career in the Revolution. He became

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more controversial with time and even a notorious

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figure amongst Americans. And again, this is

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mainly due to his denunciation of Christianity

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in the Age of Reason. His views on the Bible

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did not unnerve some people. His views on religious

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groups, all religious groups, as a matter of

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fact, which were characterized as corrupt organizations,

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certainly did, leading to breaks with both the

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Adamses and Washington. In 1787, this is where

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he met up with the British radicals, and these

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included William Godwin, father of Mary Shelley,

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the creator of Frankenstein, the poet William

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Blake. and the scientist Joseph Priestley, all

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of whom are radical figures on the fringes of

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British society. In the 1790s, he was named a

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member of the Assembly, even though he couldn't

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speak French. Such was his reputation amongst

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people who were in favor of freedom. He wrote

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The Age of Reason in response to Edmund Burke's

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Reflections on the Revolution of France, which

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was not a positive treatment of the French Revolution

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or in revolutionary movements in general. It's

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considered to be the fountainhead of all conservative

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writings in reaction to the French Revolution.

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As I said, Paine was eventually in over his head

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as far as the French Revolution was concerned

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and returned to America after his two -year stay

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in Monroe's home at the invitation of Thomas

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Jefferson, who kind of kept Paine at arm's length,

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but he never really broke with him as we saw

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with the others. He died in 1809 in, of all places,

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Greenwich Village in New York City, somehow appropriate.

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Though influentially politically, it was only

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during the American Revolution, Paine's extreme

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views had an impact among a narrow circle of

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influential people, but impact in terms of establishing

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religious policy in America would be negligible

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during the post -revolutionary era. Paine's views

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do underscore the range of religious views that

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were held by people who founded the United States,

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and how at odds they would be with contemporary

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Christian conservative advocates. Were Paine

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alive today, he would certainly view their efforts

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as confirmation of his most severe criticisms

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of organized religion. Now we're going to talk

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about Patrick Henry. Patrick Henry actually supported

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a form of state sponsored religion, putting him

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at odds with figures like Jefferson and Madison

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on this issue. Henry believed that Christianity

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was essential to maintaining public morality

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and social order. He thought that without government

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support for religion, society would descend into

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moral chaos. This wasn't about forcing a single

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denomination on everyone, but rather providing

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public. financial support for Christian teachers

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and clergy, broadly. But is this everybody that's

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going to be supporting, or is it just one religion?

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Everyone's going to be paying the taxes. Yes,

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but I mean, in terms of religious persuasions,

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is everybody's taxes going to one religion or

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are they going to multiple religions? This would

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be Church of England. Church of England or Anglicans.

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Yes. The clearest expression of his views came

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through his support of the bill establishing

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a provision for teachers of the Christian religion

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in Virginia. He argued that the state should

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levy a tax to support teachers of the Christian

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religion across denominations. such that citizens

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could designate which church received their tax

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money. So sort of like Adams' 1780 Constitution.

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Precisely. He believed Christianity was the foundation

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for Republican government and civic virtue. He

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saw government support for religion not as tyranny,

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but as a practical necessity for a functioning

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moral republic. Henry is famous for championing

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liberty. Yet on this issue, he took a position

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that would have used state power to fund religion,

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a stance most of the other founders ultimately

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rejected. But he's only talking about the state

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in this case, the state of Virginia, not the

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federal government. You're right. Exactly right.

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Yes. Which I think is a distinction we need to

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make here with this, because if we're talking

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about the United States being founded on Christian

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principles and the need to maintain a kind of

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established religion here, then the founding

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fathers are taking a completely different view,

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saying this is something that's best left as

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a state function, not a federal function. Precisely,

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yes. He believed that true liberty required a

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moral citizenry. sustained by Christian faith.

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So in his mind, the two positions were entirely

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consistent. Odd that we have somebody who's Episcopalian

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coming up to the same conclusions as people who

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are Congregationalist or Unitarian, which are

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kind of, they're totally different in their approach

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to religion. But in this case, the pursuit of

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morality is something that's kind of causing

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them to come to similar conclusions. Morality

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was a driving goal of the founding fathers. Of

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good citizens. We keep seeing it over and over

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again. Public morality leads to good behavior

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publicly. That leads to tranquility in civil

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society. Tranquility in civil society is a good

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thing because then you don't wind up with religious

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wars like they had experienced in the 17th century

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in Europe and in England in particular. And so

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on and so forth. I keep seeing this recurring

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pattern. And you're right. Different faith traditions.

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are coming together towards the same conclusion

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about religion in civil society, at least. I

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think this has something to do with Locke, too,

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because Locke was kind of the great philosopher

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of the Whigs, which included a lot of dissenters

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over in England during the 17th century. So diversity

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is something that is valued. So many faiths are

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to be tolerated, not any particular one, which

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is what I think they viewed as problematic over

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in Britain. And again, we see that pattern coming

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along too. Again, going back to this idea of

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civic tranquility. If you start ordering people

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around and telling them what to believe, they're

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going to get mad at you and at each other. You

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won't be tranquil then. Right. So religion is

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important because it creates a moral framework

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in which people will behave civilly toward each

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other, and therefore society will be tranquil.

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But on the other hand, you have to at least tolerate,

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if that's the right word, all religious belief.

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Because if you don't tolerate all of them, then

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the people you're not tolerating are going to

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rise up against you and you're going to wind

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up having civil strife, which then you won't

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have tranquility. So you need both in the way

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a lot of these guys are thinking. You need religion

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to give you a moral framework. You need to leave

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religion alone so that people can believe what

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they want, have freedom of conscience in order

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to have a tranquil. way of expressing that you

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don't want gunpowder appearing mysteriously in

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the basement of the capitol building by dissenting

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religious believers marshall's reference to the

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gunpowder plot 1605 yes in england which we talked

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about in an earlier episode yeah which was done

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by catholics who felt themselves oppressed by

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the state james madison is also famous for another

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quote along the same lines Religion and government

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will both exist in greater purity the less they

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are mixed together. And that's a letter to Edward

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Livingston in 1822. Next, George Mason. And many

00:15:35.539 --> 00:15:37.799
of our listeners might say, who is George Mason?

00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:40.399
And that's understandable. He's been largely

00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.769
forgotten. Few of his papers have survived. He

00:15:43.769 --> 00:15:45.389
could be acerbic and tended to shun political

00:15:45.389 --> 00:15:48.029
office. He was not a member of the Continental

00:15:48.029 --> 00:15:49.929
Congress, and so he did not sign the Declaration

00:15:49.929 --> 00:15:52.570
of Independence. And he mostly is remembered

00:15:52.570 --> 00:15:55.370
for refusing to sign the Constitution in 1787.

00:15:56.269 --> 00:15:58.730
And for these two reasons, not having signed

00:15:58.730 --> 00:16:00.690
either the Declaration of Independence or the

00:16:00.690 --> 00:16:02.929
Constitution, he's sometimes not considered to

00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:07.990
be a founding father. But the context here is

00:16:07.990 --> 00:16:10.629
important. He often is considered the forgotten

00:16:10.629 --> 00:16:13.230
founder. because, in fact, he did contribute

00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:17.590
a great deal to the ideas of the Declaration

00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:20.309
of Independence and of the Bill of Rights. In

00:16:20.309 --> 00:16:22.370
fact, he did not sign the Constitution because

00:16:22.370 --> 00:16:24.970
it did not include a Bill of Rights. And he was

00:16:24.970 --> 00:16:26.889
concerned that a Constitution without a Bill

00:16:26.889 --> 00:16:28.769
of Rights would make the federal government too

00:16:28.769 --> 00:16:32.190
powerful. He thought that it would become so

00:16:32.190 --> 00:16:34.809
powerful that it could lead to a monarchy in

00:16:34.809 --> 00:16:38.159
the United States or a corrupt aristocracy. that

00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:40.559
infringed on both individual rights and on the

00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.019
sovereignty of states. I'm just going to say,

00:16:43.100 --> 00:16:47.039
hmm. Note the sovereignty of states, too. Nowadays,

00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:51.299
so much of that is conflated with the Confederacy

00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:54.399
and states' rights and therefore slavery and

00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.320
things like that and secession and those kind

00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.460
of negative things in our past. In fact, though,

00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:01.399
sovereignty of states is an important part of

00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:03.519
the way the United States governmental system—

00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.240
The federal system. The federal system works.

00:17:06.029 --> 00:17:07.849
And if you think that doesn't matter, then, you

00:17:07.849 --> 00:17:09.710
know, do people in California want to do things

00:17:09.710 --> 00:17:11.769
the way they do in Texas? Do people in Texas

00:17:11.769 --> 00:17:13.069
want to do things the way they do in California?

00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:14.910
They probably want to have their own distinct

00:17:14.910 --> 00:17:17.470
ways of doing things. So under a federal system,

00:17:17.589 --> 00:17:19.710
the sovereignty of the states to control to some

00:17:19.710 --> 00:17:22.299
extent how they... how they carry out their affairs,

00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.960
how their states work, is an important thing

00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.400
today in the American governmental system, the

00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.259
federal system. So that matters a lot today,

00:17:30.339 --> 00:17:32.599
and it mattered a lot to George Mason in his

00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:34.339
refusal to sign the Constitution without a Bill

00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:36.599
of Rights. And I would say that probably this

00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.460
whole notion about states' rights within the

00:17:39.460 --> 00:17:43.299
context of early America has a lot to do with

00:17:43.299 --> 00:17:47.480
this whole idea of national harmony in the sense

00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.119
that you don't want... Congregationalists from

00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:53.220
Massachusetts imposing their views on Anglicans

00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:57.519
down in Virginia, that would create a sort of

00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.720
sense of social disharmony. Yeah, so if we're

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.720
all going to get along in one country, we're

00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.599
going to have to accommodate each other one way

00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.539
or another somehow. And the way to do that was

00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:08.039
to have a federal system where the different

00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.779
states had some sovereignty. Had some sovereignty,

00:18:10.819 --> 00:18:13.359
some control over their affairs, yes. All right,

00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:16.910
so George Mason, he was from Virginia. a large

00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:19.450
state university in Fairfax, Virginia, George

00:18:19.450 --> 00:18:22.809
Mason University is named for him. He's better

00:18:22.809 --> 00:18:24.789
known in Virginia because he's from Virginia

00:18:24.789 --> 00:18:27.430
than he is elsewhere in the country. His home,

00:18:27.470 --> 00:18:30.470
Gunston Hall, is located in Fairfax County, Virginia,

00:18:30.589 --> 00:18:33.230
outside Washington, D .C. It's only about a 15

00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:34.750
-minute drive from where we're recording this,

00:18:34.789 --> 00:18:37.250
I think. It's preserved. It's open to the public.

00:18:37.289 --> 00:18:39.150
You can go there and learn about him someday

00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:41.089
if you're ever visiting the area. He was from

00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:42.769
Virginia, and Virginia's established religion,

00:18:42.950 --> 00:18:44.609
as we talked about, its established church, was

00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:47.500
the Church of England. or the Anglican Church,

00:18:47.619 --> 00:18:50.259
later called the Episcopal Church. So his religious

00:18:50.259 --> 00:18:54.000
orientation was toward Anglicanism, Episcopalianism,

00:18:54.019 --> 00:18:57.200
because of that. However, he believed very strongly

00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.539
in the separation of church and state. So he

00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:02.900
wrote a document called the Fairfax Resolves

00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:05.779
in 1774, and then he wrote a different document

00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:08.099
called the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which

00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:12.480
Virginia adopted on June 12, 1776, which is 23

00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:14.400
days before the Declaration of Independence.

00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:18.170
on July 4th. These documents, and particularly

00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:20.950
the Virginia Declaration of Rights, laid out

00:19:20.950 --> 00:19:23.910
many principles familiar to us today. And that's

00:19:23.910 --> 00:19:26.609
because Thomas Jefferson drew on them heavily,

00:19:26.789 --> 00:19:29.289
particularly on the Virginia Declaration of Rights,

00:19:29.410 --> 00:19:31.130
when he wrote the Declaration of Independence.

00:19:31.950 --> 00:19:33.730
Some people will say, oh, you know, Thomas Jefferson

00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:35.549
cribbed it from George Mason. George Mason deserves

00:19:35.549 --> 00:19:38.170
the credit. That's not really true. But the point

00:19:38.170 --> 00:19:40.190
is well taken, though, that Jefferson respected

00:19:40.190 --> 00:19:42.430
Mason's work and drew heavily on him in writing

00:19:42.430 --> 00:19:45.430
the Declaration. Jefferson drew on a lot of people

00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:47.349
for the Declaration. He also drew on works by

00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:49.390
other people. But sitting on his desk was something

00:19:49.390 --> 00:19:51.089
by George Mason, and that's been forgotten is

00:19:51.089 --> 00:19:52.970
my point here. And I don't see that as necessarily

00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:55.750
a failing that you're going to take the best

00:19:55.750 --> 00:19:58.210
from the best minds of the time. No, no, no.

00:19:58.210 --> 00:19:59.589
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that some

00:19:59.589 --> 00:20:01.549
people will get critical and say things. things

00:20:01.549 --> 00:20:04.609
like that. Anyway, so the Declaration, but also

00:20:04.609 --> 00:20:07.829
the Virginia Declaration of Rights formed the

00:20:07.829 --> 00:20:09.910
basis for the Bill of Rights that James Madison

00:20:09.910 --> 00:20:12.230
wrote for the Constitution, which was ratified

00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:16.069
in 1791. And by the way, the Virginia Declaration

00:20:16.069 --> 00:20:18.990
of Rights also inspired similar verbiage. in

00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:21.609
many U .S. state constitutions, U .S. state bills

00:20:21.609 --> 00:20:24.930
of rights, in the French Declaration of the Rights

00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:28.529
of Man and of the Citizen in 1789, and even in

00:20:28.529 --> 00:20:30.250
the United Nations Charter, which was adopted

00:20:30.250 --> 00:20:33.569
in 1945. So George Mason's thinking and his work

00:20:33.569 --> 00:20:36.650
and writing particularly the Virginia Declaration

00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:40.190
of Rights, casts a long shadow in terms of the...

00:20:40.190 --> 00:20:43.329
As a political theorist, he's... Charters and

00:20:43.329 --> 00:20:45.910
constitutions of governments and organizations

00:20:45.910 --> 00:20:48.809
in the future. Yes, he's a very unappreciated

00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:51.089
political theorist that has contributed a great

00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:53.450
deal. So what did he say in this, right? So let's

00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:55.950
go to the Virginia Declaration of Rights. In

00:20:55.950 --> 00:20:58.390
the first draft, the first draft of the Virginia

00:20:58.390 --> 00:21:01.190
Declaration of Rights, Mason wrote, now this

00:21:01.190 --> 00:21:03.599
is going to be in very florid... 18th century

00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.680
style English. With dependent clauses and everything.

00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:08.440
Yeah, so we'll parse this, but just listen to

00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:13.259
what he wrote. He wrote, that as religion, or

00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:16.019
the duty which we owe to our divine and omnipotent

00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:20.140
creator, and the matter of discharging it, can

00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:23.079
be governed only by reason and conviction, not

00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.500
by force or violence, and therefore that all

00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:28.900
men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the

00:21:28.900 --> 00:21:31.500
exercise of religion, according to the dictates

00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:34.349
of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by

00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:38.269
the magistrate, unless, under color of religion,

00:21:38.730 --> 00:21:42.109
any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or

00:21:42.109 --> 00:21:46.289
safety of society or of individuals, and that

00:21:46.289 --> 00:21:48.589
it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian

00:21:48.589 --> 00:21:52.049
forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:55.049
So let's parse that a little bit and see what

00:21:55.049 --> 00:21:57.549
he's saying there. Interestingly, he says religion,

00:21:57.789 --> 00:22:00.309
but then he says, or the duty we owe to our divine

00:22:00.309 --> 00:22:02.470
and omnipotent creator. So it kind of sounds

00:22:02.470 --> 00:22:04.450
like he's reflecting, he's acknowledging religion

00:22:04.450 --> 00:22:06.609
there, but maybe also giving a nod to deism,

00:22:06.750 --> 00:22:09.829
right? Which is, is that a religion? The creator,

00:22:09.950 --> 00:22:12.450
right? He's giving a nod there. And the manner

00:22:12.450 --> 00:22:14.470
of discharging it, okay, so how you go about

00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:17.650
doing it, can only be, your rituals, in other

00:22:17.650 --> 00:22:20.069
words, right? Can only be governed by reason

00:22:20.069 --> 00:22:22.710
and conviction. Reason and conviction. So you

00:22:22.710 --> 00:22:24.670
have to believe it, but you come to that belief

00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:27.269
through reason. He's not making an emotional

00:22:27.269 --> 00:22:29.430
claim here. You think it through, and then you...

00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:32.859
You make your decision. You develop your convictions

00:22:32.859 --> 00:22:36.359
based on your reason, okay? And that it can't

00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.059
be governed by force or violence. So you can't

00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:41.839
threaten anybody in any way. Violence, physical

00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:43.920
violence, obviously, but even just force, right?

00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:46.680
Maybe you don't commit an act of violence, but

00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:48.339
maybe you're arresting people, you're jailing

00:22:48.339 --> 00:22:51.420
people, right? You're using force. Those cannot

00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:56.119
govern your religious practice in any way, is

00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:58.539
what he's saying. Only reason and conviction

00:22:58.539 --> 00:23:02.440
can govern those. Therefore, you should enjoy

00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:04.819
the fullest toleration. Every man, he says, nowadays

00:23:04.819 --> 00:23:06.859
we'd say every person, every man and woman, right?

00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:09.500
Should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise

00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:11.440
of religion, according to what the dictates of

00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.400
their conscience. And he says that the magistrate,

00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.119
so he's talking about the government, right?

00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:18.680
And the government cannot punish or restrain

00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.380
you from doing that, with one exception. And

00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:25.940
he says, if by exercising your religion, your

00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:29.740
religious practices, you disturb the peace. Shout

00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:32.740
fire in a crowded theater. You disturb the happiness

00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:37.059
or safety of society or of individuals. Now,

00:23:37.099 --> 00:23:39.200
there's that tranquility thing again, right?

00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.779
So practice your religion, but don't disturb

00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.240
civil society. Don't oppress anybody else while

00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:47.079
you're doing it. Don't interfere with their rights.

00:23:47.619 --> 00:23:50.640
Okay, that's what he's saying. So we can't govern

00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:52.680
what you do. We should not govern and cannot

00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.470
govern what you do and think religiously. But

00:23:55.470 --> 00:23:57.750
you cannot use that as an excuse to disturb the

00:23:57.750 --> 00:24:00.509
peace, and you cannot use that as an excuse to

00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:04.210
oppress other people. Your rights end where another's

00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:07.329
begins. Now, he also says at the end here, it

00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:10.210
is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian

00:24:10.210 --> 00:24:12.450
forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

00:24:12.549 --> 00:24:16.190
So all of us have a duty to follow what he explicitly

00:24:16.190 --> 00:24:20.180
says is Christian teachings. Maybe he's saying

00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:22.259
if you're Jewish, if you're Muslim, if you're

00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:24.759
whatever else you are, and the teachings you're

00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:27.720
following mirror what Christianity teaches, then

00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:29.700
you're good, I guess is what he's saying there.

00:24:29.900 --> 00:24:32.799
But he does say that you have a duty to carry

00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.160
out these Christian morals. Yes. Or Christian

00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.380
-informed morals, at least, Christianity -informed

00:24:38.380 --> 00:24:43.839
morals. That's a duty that you have. I see that

00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.890
as, again, reflecting this idea that... that

00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:49.549
religion provides, that a lot of them had, that

00:24:49.549 --> 00:24:51.470
religion provides a moral underpinning for how

00:24:51.470 --> 00:24:53.869
you behave in a society, and therefore it's critical

00:24:53.869 --> 00:24:56.809
to have it. So you have a duty to carry that

00:24:56.809 --> 00:25:00.470
out. That's how I read that. So that's the...

00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:04.019
That's the clause that he wrote about religion

00:25:04.019 --> 00:25:06.440
in the Virginia Declaration of Rights in the

00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.980
original draft. Now, so they got together in

00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:11.140
Virginia and considered the adoption of the Declaration

00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:13.819
of Rights in 1776. And a debate developed in

00:25:13.819 --> 00:25:16.559
which James Madison, who at the time was a young

00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.720
hotshot from Orange County, Virginia. Protégé

00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:22.759
of Jefferson's. He was there. He strongly opposed

00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.319
Mason's use of the word toleration. Yes. So what

00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.849
Mason says is that... All men should enjoy the

00:25:29.849 --> 00:25:32.349
fullest toleration and the exercise of religion.

00:25:32.630 --> 00:25:36.170
He says, no, no, no. Do not use the word toleration.

00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:39.329
He said that tolerating a religion was too weak

00:25:39.329 --> 00:25:42.829
of a construct. And he concluded that, Madison

00:25:42.829 --> 00:25:46.309
did, that religious toleration, whether granted

00:25:46.309 --> 00:25:48.490
by the civil state or by a religious authority,

00:25:48.849 --> 00:25:52.750
was inconsistent with freedom of conscience and

00:25:52.750 --> 00:25:55.789
was a woefully inadequate objective. Because

00:25:55.789 --> 00:26:00.190
it doesn't... It's not a guarantee. It's not

00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:02.849
a guarantee. And toleration means that you're

00:26:02.849 --> 00:26:06.450
sort of like holding your nose and putting up

00:26:06.450 --> 00:26:08.670
with something rather than accepting it. I could

00:26:08.670 --> 00:26:10.410
smack you down for doing it, but I'm going to

00:26:10.410 --> 00:26:12.670
tolerate you and not do it. Yes. That's not good

00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:16.009
enough. No, it's not. According to Madison. Madison

00:26:16.009 --> 00:26:18.589
proposed replacing Mason's Clause, all men should

00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:20.390
enjoy the fullest toleration and the exercise

00:26:20.390 --> 00:26:23.970
of religion, with the phrase... All men are equally

00:26:23.970 --> 00:26:26.670
entitled to the full and free exercise of it,

00:26:26.829 --> 00:26:30.069
meaning religion, according to the dictates of

00:26:30.069 --> 00:26:32.950
conscience. So it's not something that's tolerated.

00:26:33.089 --> 00:26:36.509
It's something you're entitled to. What did Mason

00:26:36.509 --> 00:26:38.269
think about this? There isn't much documentary

00:26:38.269 --> 00:26:40.589
evidence of what he specifically thought about

00:26:40.589 --> 00:26:42.339
it. But he appears to have had no real objection

00:26:42.339 --> 00:26:44.160
to Madison's change. He doesn't appear to have

00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.319
done anything to fight it. Toleration was probably

00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.839
like a term. I would say that when we're looking

00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:51.839
at some of these writings, we need to take into

00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.480
account that there are certain terms of convenience.

00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:59.279
And toleration would have been the term of convenience

00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:01.920
which we might understand as freedom of religion.

00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.119
But Madison does make an important distinction

00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.440
there. I would say that most people would say

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.410
toleration is a good thing. Sure, fine. But Madison

00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:13.029
is taking it one step further and saying, well,

00:27:13.109 --> 00:27:15.869
no, you really want to establish a deeper requirement

00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:18.670
than just toleration. Mason appears to have had

00:27:18.670 --> 00:27:21.309
no real problem with that. And so the final version

00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:23.569
that was adopted is the first legal statement

00:27:23.569 --> 00:27:25.690
of religious liberty, according to my reading,

00:27:25.769 --> 00:27:28.349
my research. It's the first legal statement of

00:27:28.349 --> 00:27:30.470
religious liberty ever really made. What was

00:27:30.470 --> 00:27:34.349
the year again? 1776. Yeah. And it came out as

00:27:34.349 --> 00:27:36.869
Article 16 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights.

00:27:36.890 --> 00:27:40.880
And it states. That religion, or the duty which

00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.140
we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging

00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:45.599
it, can be directed by reason and conviction,

00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:49.579
not by force or violence, and therefore all men

00:27:49.579 --> 00:27:52.339
are equally entitled to the free exercise of

00:27:52.339 --> 00:27:54.500
religion according to the dictates of conscience,

00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:57.240
and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice

00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.180
Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards

00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:03.240
each other. And that's what they agreed to. So,

00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:05.099
in other words, the free exercise of religion

00:28:05.099 --> 00:28:08.200
is a right, and all people are entitled to it,

00:28:08.619 --> 00:28:11.440
Civil authorities must do more than merely tolerate

00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:15.140
it. They must ensure it. And I think as a statement

00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:18.660
of original intent, if we're talking about what

00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:22.339
the original intent is, this is a kind of crucial

00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:27.160
statement to consider when we're looking at what

00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.420
the original intent is behind the Founding Fathers

00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:32.180
and the establishment of the United States and

00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:34.109
the relationship of religion. So that was what

00:28:34.109 --> 00:28:35.769
they actually officially adopted. But Mason's

00:28:35.769 --> 00:28:38.250
original draft of what became Article 16 was

00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:40.089
the one most widely circulated among the other

00:28:40.089 --> 00:28:43.269
states at the time who were drafting their own

00:28:43.269 --> 00:28:45.289
constitutions and bills of rights and things.

00:28:45.369 --> 00:28:47.630
So his original draft was probably the one that

00:28:47.630 --> 00:28:49.930
was most influential on other states, not the

00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:52.029
modified version that they worked out with Madison.

00:28:53.630 --> 00:28:55.849
Scholars have noted that Mason wrote and Madison

00:28:55.849 --> 00:28:58.309
retained the clause that religion or the duty

00:28:58.309 --> 00:28:59.990
we owe our creator and the manner of discharging

00:28:59.990 --> 00:29:03.430
it. The retention of this line suggests that

00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:07.130
both Mason and Madison construed religion as

00:29:07.130 --> 00:29:10.609
belief in a creator and all of the duties arising

00:29:10.609 --> 00:29:13.650
from the belief in that creator. So you have

00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:14.890
to believe in a creator, but then you have to

00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:16.609
believe the creator assigned duties to you that

00:29:16.609 --> 00:29:18.809
you must carry out in the honor of that creator.

00:29:18.829 --> 00:29:21.470
Good works. Good works. This notion is consistent

00:29:21.470 --> 00:29:23.509
with definitions of religion commonly used at

00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:27.049
that time, and it included deists, but it excluded

00:29:27.049 --> 00:29:30.430
atheists. Again, we have that stigma of atheism.

00:29:31.150 --> 00:29:34.410
You cannot, you know, the belief system is that

00:29:34.410 --> 00:29:40.009
you cannot have a sort of like world without

00:29:40.009 --> 00:29:45.009
a deity in it. You cannot basically ascribe to

00:29:45.009 --> 00:29:50.769
a sort of like non -atheistic worldview where

00:29:50.769 --> 00:29:53.049
everything's just happening because it's happening.

00:29:53.549 --> 00:29:58.029
A final note on this. A scholar named L. John

00:29:58.029 --> 00:30:02.410
Van Til observed, that the final version aligned

00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:05.509
the terms creator, religion, and conscience.

00:30:06.430 --> 00:30:10.109
So Van Til wrote that religion is the way that

00:30:10.109 --> 00:30:13.630
a man relates to his creator. But this relationship

00:30:13.630 --> 00:30:17.630
can be cared for only through conscience. And

00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:19.509
that conscience employs reason and conviction,

00:30:19.630 --> 00:30:22.130
not force and violence. So conscience is the

00:30:22.130 --> 00:30:24.029
only way to discharge the duties of man toward

00:30:24.029 --> 00:30:26.829
his creator. And therefore, the man must be at

00:30:26.829 --> 00:30:30.460
liberty to do that. Significantly, the article

00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:32.000
adds, it is necessary, therefore, to practice

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.759
Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards

00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:35.759
each other. So this rests on two assumptions.

00:30:36.019 --> 00:30:38.819
One is that the rights of conscience and vision

00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:41.500
by the Virginia Convention were to be exercised

00:30:41.500 --> 00:30:44.279
in a theistic context. And second, that involves

00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:46.460
not only a relationship between one man and his

00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:48.960
God, but also the relationship of each man to

00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.779
his neighbor. There we have it again. There is

00:30:52.779 --> 00:30:56.140
a civic aspect in terms of civic behavior, how

00:30:56.140 --> 00:30:58.980
one behaves toward one's neighbor. reflected

00:30:58.980 --> 00:31:01.819
in a religious underpinning, but having a practical,

00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:05.859
secular, civic effect in terms of how you function

00:31:05.859 --> 00:31:08.259
in your society. And I see this as a recurring

00:31:08.259 --> 00:31:10.960
theme put in different ways, maybe coming from

00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.259
different faith traditions, but you keep seeing

00:31:12.259 --> 00:31:14.559
it over and over again amongst the founders.

00:31:15.220 --> 00:31:27.450
So that's George Mason. The same power that can

00:31:27.450 --> 00:31:30.650
establish Christianity in exclusion to all other

00:31:30.650 --> 00:31:33.750
religions may establish with the same ease a

00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:36.509
particular sect of Christianity to the exclusion

00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:40.569
of all other sects. Remonstrance against religious

00:31:40.569 --> 00:31:46.190
assessments, 1785, James Madison. Now, we've

00:31:46.190 --> 00:31:49.069
talked about James Madison in his relationship

00:31:49.069 --> 00:31:55.880
with George Mason. Now it's Madison's time to

00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.099
kind of shine here. So he is known as the father

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:02.680
of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and

00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:07.059
given his role in the construction and passage

00:32:07.059 --> 00:32:11.000
of both. Madison, along with Hamilton and John

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.259
Jay, is the author of the Federalist Papers,

00:32:13.299 --> 00:32:16.299
which explains the original intent in the Constitution,

00:32:16.660 --> 00:32:20.420
which established and organized the federal government.

00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.500
Now, the Constitution consists of certain points

00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:26.839
because people don't study the Constitution.

00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:31.519
It's probably worth saying what it is. You have

00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:33.559
the organization of the federal government, Articles

00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.059
1 through 3, the relationship with the states,

00:32:36.180 --> 00:32:39.180
Article 4, the amendment process, Article 5.

00:32:40.350 --> 00:32:43.109
establish the Constitution as the supreme law

00:32:43.109 --> 00:32:45.789
of the land, Article 6, and how the Constitution

00:32:45.789 --> 00:32:48.309
is to be ratified. This is the Constitution.

00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:51.529
And then what follows, the first 10 amendments,

00:32:51.609 --> 00:32:54.549
which Madison is also associated with, are called

00:32:54.549 --> 00:32:58.460
the Bill of Rights. And these were kind of a

00:32:58.460 --> 00:33:03.519
result of Mason's role in insisting that we have

00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:07.420
those as part of our Constitution to prevent

00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:10.960
excesses on the part of the federal government.

00:33:11.859 --> 00:33:15.900
So Madison was probably the most proud of the

00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:19.539
Constitution, and rightly so, and the Bill of

00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:22.670
Rights. Because this is what literally creates

00:33:22.670 --> 00:33:25.730
the American nation. It's not the flag. It's

00:33:25.730 --> 00:33:30.049
not anything else. It is the Constitution. Madison

00:33:30.049 --> 00:33:33.329
was a so -so president during the War of 1812,

00:33:33.690 --> 00:33:37.009
which we might want to address in a future episode.

00:33:37.390 --> 00:33:41.470
But it's really his skill as a legislator that

00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:45.849
makes Madison a founding father. Madison is exceptional

00:33:45.849 --> 00:33:48.309
in many ways. He's, first of all, the shortest

00:33:48.309 --> 00:33:52.410
president of the United States. He is 5 '4".

00:33:52.410 --> 00:33:55.650
Jefferson and Washington are both over 6 feet

00:33:55.650 --> 00:34:01.069
tall, and Adams is 5 '7". So just imagine how

00:34:01.069 --> 00:34:03.250
tall Madison would have stood. He would have

00:34:03.250 --> 00:34:05.869
probably needed a box to preside over anything

00:34:05.869 --> 00:34:09.070
to stand upon. He's a very quiet and scholarly

00:34:09.070 --> 00:34:13.119
person. He is, interestingly, for someone from

00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.280
Virginia, he did not go to William and Mary,

00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:19.300
which was the usual location for turning out

00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:22.099
statesmen, lawyers, ministers, et cetera, during

00:34:22.099 --> 00:34:24.400
the colonial period. He instead went to Princeton,

00:34:24.579 --> 00:34:28.760
New Jersey. And this is because of the wising

00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:33.599
tide of deism that was the result of Scottish

00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:36.400
members of the Enlightenment coming over to teach

00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.420
at William and Mary. The idea was to send Madison

00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:42.900
to a more conventionally religious institution

00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:46.360
like Princeton, as it was at the time. And what

00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:50.059
was Princeton's denomination? Presbyterian. It

00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:54.260
was Presbyterian? Okay. Yes. So he's also a protege

00:34:54.260 --> 00:34:58.059
of Jefferson. who literally sent him truckloads

00:34:58.059 --> 00:35:00.320
of books from Europe when he was serving as U

00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.559
.S. ambassador, possibly the greatest act of

00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:06.699
friendship and influence that Jefferson could

00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:09.139
have over the development of the Constitution

00:35:09.139 --> 00:35:14.239
and the Bill of Rights. Madison used these offerings

00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.800
as a delegate to the Constitution to provide

00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.860
insight into possible structures of the federal

00:35:18.860 --> 00:35:22.179
government, which, again, was his proudest achievement.

00:35:22.990 --> 00:35:25.969
Very little is known about the exact religious

00:35:25.969 --> 00:35:29.309
views of James Madison like other founding fathers.

00:35:29.449 --> 00:35:32.510
He did not advertise them. It's probably considered

00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:36.929
impolitic to do so. We see what happens when

00:35:36.929 --> 00:35:39.250
you're Thomas Paine and you start shouting from

00:35:39.250 --> 00:35:42.969
the tops of buildings what you believe, what

00:35:42.969 --> 00:35:45.469
effect that can have on your popularity and influence.

00:35:46.489 --> 00:35:48.849
He is well -versed, though, in religious matters.

00:35:48.909 --> 00:35:51.289
He could read the Bible in both Hebrew and Greek

00:35:51.289 --> 00:35:54.170
and was familiar with a wide variety of authors

00:35:54.170 --> 00:35:59.050
on religious matters. Interestingly, you know,

00:35:59.070 --> 00:36:02.469
how we see that with Washington, there's no—he

00:36:02.469 --> 00:36:07.190
doesn't necessarily indulge in communion. Madison

00:36:07.190 --> 00:36:09.869
was never confirmed in the Anglican Church despite

00:36:09.869 --> 00:36:13.769
attempts to kind of maintain a more conventional

00:36:13.769 --> 00:36:17.849
religious upbringing. He may have held Unitarian

00:36:17.849 --> 00:36:21.090
views similar to John Adams, some people think.

00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:24.590
He was profoundly affected by the persecution

00:36:24.590 --> 00:36:27.630
and arrest of dissenters in Culpeper County,

00:36:27.969 --> 00:36:30.690
an event he witnessed shortly after returning

00:36:30.690 --> 00:36:33.650
from Princeton. He was still recounting this

00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:37.059
story in the White House 40 years later. His

00:36:37.059 --> 00:36:39.440
wife, Dolly Madison, was a former Quaker and

00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.659
had a similar series of tales involving the persecution

00:36:41.659 --> 00:36:45.119
of Quakers. So religious persecution was very

00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.179
much a part of both members of the family's backstory.

00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:51.239
They both were concerned about this. They had

00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:53.719
witnessed it. They had seen extreme violence,

00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:56.909
and they wished to avoid it. For a lot of the

00:36:56.909 --> 00:36:58.690
other founding fathers, they don't necessarily

00:36:58.690 --> 00:37:01.070
have this reference point, which I think is interesting.

00:37:01.269 --> 00:37:03.510
They have a historical reference point, but they

00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:05.690
don't have a personal one where they're literally

00:37:05.690 --> 00:37:08.750
seeing people dragged away to jail for their

00:37:08.750 --> 00:37:11.530
belief systems. And again, to me, that kind of

00:37:11.530 --> 00:37:13.710
shows why he was so adamant about the idea of

00:37:13.710 --> 00:37:15.909
not having toleration in the Virginia Declaration

00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:18.429
of Rights, because if you're merely tolerating

00:37:18.429 --> 00:37:20.699
something, then... you can decide not to tolerate

00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:22.260
it. And when you do, all these terrible things

00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:24.639
can happen that he saw happen. Hence the quote

00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:27.760
that we lead off with. So he wanted to not just

00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:31.619
tolerate, but demand that the state, require

00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:34.380
the state, I should say, to make sure everybody

00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:36.719
has religious freedom. Everybody is the same.

00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:40.900
Everybody is the same before the law, which is

00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:45.579
an important tradition that we see refined in

00:37:45.579 --> 00:37:49.900
later amendments beyond the the Bill of Rights,

00:37:50.019 --> 00:37:52.880
but an important component of the Constitution

00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:56.559
to this very day. We are all equal under the

00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:00.619
law. Madison drafted the Virginia Plan, which

00:38:00.619 --> 00:38:02.940
contributed to the language of the first three

00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:06.099
articles dealing with the organization of the

00:38:06.099 --> 00:38:09.500
federal government in the Constitution with the

00:38:09.500 --> 00:38:11.780
three distinct branches and the bicameral legislature.

00:38:13.900 --> 00:38:16.099
Later, as one of the authors of the Federalist

00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:18.179
Papers, Madison promoted the ratification of

00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:23.139
the Constitution with these articles here. Initially,

00:38:23.139 --> 00:38:26.360
Madison did not think a Bill of Rights was necessary.

00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:30.719
He felt like the Constitution says it all. This

00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:32.840
is what the Constitution is supposed to do. These

00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:35.300
are the responsibilities of the federal government.

00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:40.420
in response to arguments between himself or debates

00:38:40.420 --> 00:38:44.860
with George Mason, he kind of became converted

00:38:44.860 --> 00:38:48.000
to the idea of a Bill of Rights over time. This

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.320
is sort of the dynamics of politics before we

00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:54.900
have cable news and all sorts of tweeting and

00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:57.679
such that people could actually have a debate

00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:03.039
about... issues of the day and actually change

00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:05.739
their mind and agree to come to a different conclusion

00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:08.559
based on the strength of their opponent's position

00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:11.860
there. And this is something we see among members

00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:15.420
of the founding fathers' generation. It's curious

00:39:15.420 --> 00:39:18.559
that he and Mason interacted, you know, on the

00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:22.119
Virginia Declaration of Rights in 1776, but then,

00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:26.110
you know, 15 years later, roughly. He doesn't

00:39:26.110 --> 00:39:28.110
see necessarily the need for a Bill of Rights

00:39:28.110 --> 00:39:31.170
at first. Maybe he felt that the states had enough

00:39:31.170 --> 00:39:35.090
power of their own. Yeah. That they could provide

00:39:35.090 --> 00:39:37.550
the protections in the Bill of Rights. And then

00:39:37.550 --> 00:39:39.510
maybe Mason convinced him that, no, no, you need

00:39:39.510 --> 00:39:42.530
a federal one as well. Yeah. That's what it sounds

00:39:42.530 --> 00:39:44.349
like to me, but I'm just making that up as I'm

00:39:44.349 --> 00:39:47.289
listening to you. I think that what you're saying

00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:50.449
is actually the case here. Because I think when

00:39:50.449 --> 00:39:53.610
Madison is looking at the Constitution initially,

00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:57.260
It is about establishing the federal government.

00:39:57.820 --> 00:40:00.360
And that's why I felt it was useful to go through

00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.480
the initial—when you're looking at this, this

00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.880
is not a document about rights. This is an organizational

00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:11.760
document, a document about organizational principles.

00:40:12.139 --> 00:40:15.280
This is how things are meant to function. And

00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.000
it's important to keep that in mind. And that

00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:21.380
is what Madison saw as the reason we needed to

00:40:21.380 --> 00:40:24.750
create a federal government system. And we needed

00:40:24.750 --> 00:40:28.250
to have explained what the various branches did,

00:40:28.449 --> 00:40:32.389
what their limits on their powers were and things

00:40:32.389 --> 00:40:34.949
like that. And then the states can then make

00:40:34.949 --> 00:40:36.730
sure that they ensure everybody's rights with

00:40:36.730 --> 00:40:38.909
regard to whatever, including religion. Yes.

00:40:39.369 --> 00:40:42.030
But Mason felt that the Constitution as written

00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:44.929
might allow the federal government to intrude

00:40:44.929 --> 00:40:46.889
upon the sovereignty of states. And he was against

00:40:46.889 --> 00:40:49.050
that. So it sounds like that may be where he

00:40:49.050 --> 00:40:52.179
and he and Madison. came to an agreement that

00:40:52.179 --> 00:40:53.739
you needed to have a bill of rights well when

00:40:53.739 --> 00:40:55.380
you talk about the constitution as being the

00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:58.219
supreme law of the land then that is you know

00:40:58.219 --> 00:40:59.900
in the federal government being the arbitrator

00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:02.199
of that that's where i think this comes into

00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:04.340
play here and i i think this might have been

00:41:04.340 --> 00:41:09.480
some an element that madison didn't quite reckon

00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:13.460
with at first but was was able to be persuaded

00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:17.760
later on as a member of the first session of

00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:21.619
congress Madison reviewed over 200 submissions

00:41:21.619 --> 00:41:25.000
and drafted amendments that later became the

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.599
Bill of Rights. So there were lots of different

00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.900
things that people felt were important to be

00:41:29.900 --> 00:41:33.139
included in the Constitution. And Madison, reader

00:41:33.139 --> 00:41:36.559
that he was, basically discovered that we really

00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:40.440
just needed 10, at least to start off with. Madison

00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:43.360
was pleased with what later became known as the

00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.139
First Amendment. And this is the one that deals

00:41:47.139 --> 00:41:50.119
with the non -establishment clause of religion

00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:54.920
in it. This was not, it is the First Amendment

00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:57.820
not because of significance or importance or

00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:01.019
value that people invest in it. It's the First

00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:02.460
Amendment because that was the first one that

00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:05.559
got passed. All these amendments went up and

00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:07.579
went through the usual process of ratification.

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.099
First Amendment was the one that came back first

00:42:10.099 --> 00:42:13.440
of all. So it's not a priority issue. It's an

00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:19.070
issue of where things emerged on the docket of

00:42:19.070 --> 00:42:22.750
various legislatures around the country. Madison

00:42:22.750 --> 00:42:26.070
was most imbued by the British political tradition

00:42:26.070 --> 00:42:29.889
and with a very strong attachment to Locke. Not

00:42:29.889 --> 00:42:34.710
so much Montesquieu's notions of the social contract,

00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:37.889
although there is some social contract data on

00:42:37.889 --> 00:42:42.099
Locke. During the 18th century, and I think this

00:42:42.099 --> 00:42:44.960
is an important distinction, British politics

00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.019
is still focused on whether or not one needed

00:42:47.019 --> 00:42:49.340
to exclude non -Anglicans from the political

00:42:49.340 --> 00:42:52.099
process, which I've kind of alluded to earlier

00:42:52.099 --> 00:42:54.119
in this discussion and in the previous episode.

00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:57.920
The rights of non -Anglicans within the British

00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.320
Commonwealth was something that, as Mike brought

00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:06.739
out, Founding fathers were trying to avoid any

00:43:06.739 --> 00:43:10.639
sort of controversy over those. Everybody was

00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:13.860
supposed to have the same equal rights. There

00:43:13.860 --> 00:43:17.920
was and there is no Christian religion as such.

00:43:17.940 --> 00:43:20.280
There are religions that ascribe to Christian

00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:23.719
principles, but there is no single monolithic

00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:27.320
Christian religion. And this was something that

00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.500
was recognized by the founding fathers, particularly.

00:43:32.139 --> 00:43:35.480
James Madison, when the Bill of Rights was being

00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:38.860
crafted. We're looking at, in the foundation

00:43:38.860 --> 00:43:41.820
of America, Unitarians, Quakers, and Catholics,

00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:46.059
and subsequently with the Second Great Awakening,

00:43:46.059 --> 00:43:49.300
which we'll get into in the next episode, very

00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:55.280
different religious groups here, and their rights

00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:58.510
were something that Madison sought to sought

00:43:58.510 --> 00:44:01.550
to establish as bedrock principles within the

00:44:01.550 --> 00:44:04.690
Constitution. These are things that establish

00:44:04.690 --> 00:44:07.170
the principles that today can cause people to

00:44:07.170 --> 00:44:10.170
question whether or not certain religions are

00:44:10.170 --> 00:44:12.969
Christian or not, but not question their ability

00:44:12.969 --> 00:44:17.090
to exist. The beauty of the First Amendment,

00:44:17.250 --> 00:44:19.730
just to go into some detail about that, because

00:44:19.730 --> 00:44:25.409
this is part of Madison's legacy, and particularly

00:44:25.409 --> 00:44:27.960
germane to what we're discussing, Is that while

00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.780
people might opine that such things, that there

00:44:31.780 --> 00:44:34.679
is no test act to ensure that only people of

00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:37.099
a certain religion, whether it is Christian or

00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:39.559
not, can participate in the political process.

00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:42.940
And that was the distinction that was made over

00:44:42.940 --> 00:44:45.679
in Britain. Because if you have this notion of

00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:50.940
the world being established by God, that's who

00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:55.059
is in charge of things. This is a very un -American

00:44:55.059 --> 00:44:59.219
notion. I think we can say that if you have like

00:44:59.219 --> 00:45:03.559
a king or someone divinely appointed by God,

00:45:03.639 --> 00:45:06.360
that this is very much at odds with founding

00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.500
fathers are talking about when they are establishing

00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:14.119
the Constitution. In this sense, no one is going

00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:16.280
to be fined for not taking communion four times

00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.780
a year, which was a penalty that was going on

00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:21.340
in England during the 17th and 18th century,

00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.179
or going to the wrong church. There are no wrong

00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:28.579
churches under Madison. What Madison was seeking

00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:31.840
to allow and permit and is part of his legacy.

00:45:32.470 --> 00:45:35.449
is to achieve the right to define one's own religious

00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:39.150
preference, not through toleration, as Mike said,

00:45:39.369 --> 00:45:42.070
which implies these beliefs could be odious,

00:45:42.250 --> 00:45:45.670
but as a fundamental right, which is a somewhat

00:45:45.670 --> 00:45:49.170
different aspect to how one views these things.

00:45:50.010 --> 00:45:52.809
The United States were to remain neutral despite

00:45:52.809 --> 00:45:56.250
all sentiments to the contrary. That was his

00:45:56.250 --> 00:45:59.869
vision. The government has a duty to ensure that

00:45:59.869 --> 00:46:02.849
you can practice your religion. it does not merely

00:46:02.849 --> 00:46:05.050
tolerate the fact that you practice your religion.

00:46:05.210 --> 00:46:07.849
Yes. That's a key distinction in his mind. And

00:46:07.849 --> 00:46:11.150
I would say that that's probably not at odds

00:46:11.150 --> 00:46:15.269
with what other people intended, but I think

00:46:15.269 --> 00:46:18.550
that it is kind of a new wrinkle on things in

00:46:18.550 --> 00:46:23.610
terms of how we view this as fundamental. I think

00:46:23.610 --> 00:46:26.150
that is the key word. I think so. I think that

00:46:26.150 --> 00:46:28.230
when people like Mason and others use the word

00:46:28.230 --> 00:46:31.980
tolerate or toleration, they were meaning what

00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:33.980
Madison was trying to get at. This is the language

00:46:33.980 --> 00:46:36.480
of the time. Yeah, they were meaning that, but

00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:38.559
he wanted to put it more forcefully and leave

00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:40.579
it open to no interpretation whatsoever, and

00:46:40.579 --> 00:46:42.559
so he recommended that change. And they adopted

00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:44.219
it. So they must have said, yeah, I see your

00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:45.900
point. Okay, let's go with that. Yeah, I mean,

00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:49.539
yeah. This went through the whole process of

00:46:49.539 --> 00:47:03.170
it. Which brings us to our final founding father,

00:47:03.230 --> 00:47:04.909
I believe we're going to discuss, Alexander Hamilton.

00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:10.409
He presents a complex picture in many ways. He

00:47:10.409 --> 00:47:13.269
was born on the island of Nevis, N -E -V -I -S,

00:47:13.409 --> 00:47:15.949
it's spelled, Nevis. It's in the Caribbean. It's

00:47:15.949 --> 00:47:17.989
now part of the country of St. Kitts and Nevis.

00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:21.949
Traditionally, he's viewed as having been raised

00:47:21.949 --> 00:47:25.510
Presbyterian. That's because his mother was born

00:47:25.510 --> 00:47:29.260
Christian, and his biological... father, to whom

00:47:29.260 --> 00:47:32.159
his mother was not married, was Scottish. So

00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:33.820
the assumption was a Scottish man is going to

00:47:33.820 --> 00:47:36.500
be Presbyterian. Mother was Christian. He must

00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:38.099
have been brought up Presbyterian. That was the

00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:41.760
idea there. There is recent scholarship which

00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:44.400
has been embraced as being an important contribution

00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.019
to understanding of Hamilton. A book published

00:47:47.019 --> 00:47:50.239
in 2021 called The Jewish World of Alexander

00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:54.380
Hamilton by a man named Andrew, and I'm sure

00:47:54.380 --> 00:47:56.429
I'm going to mess his last name up. But it's

00:47:56.429 --> 00:48:01.849
Porwancher, P -O -R -W -A -N -C -H -E -R. Porwancher,

00:48:01.909 --> 00:48:03.449
maybe he pronounces it differently. If he does,

00:48:03.610 --> 00:48:06.170
I apologize to him. Anyway, this book raises

00:48:06.170 --> 00:48:09.989
a whole new idea of how Hamilton was raised.

00:48:10.650 --> 00:48:13.809
And it's circumstantial evidence. There's inferences

00:48:13.809 --> 00:48:16.469
there, but it's well constructed with a lot of

00:48:16.469 --> 00:48:19.690
evidence. So it's not considered proof. but it's

00:48:19.690 --> 00:48:21.489
considered to be significant evidence that must

00:48:21.489 --> 00:48:23.929
be considered that, in fact, Alexander Hamilton

00:48:23.929 --> 00:48:27.510
was raised Jewish. Could I ask a question here?

00:48:27.750 --> 00:48:31.510
Sure. When we're saying raised Jewish, does this

00:48:31.510 --> 00:48:33.809
mean that he is going through the formal rituals

00:48:33.809 --> 00:48:38.170
of Judaism, such as bar mitzvah and things like

00:48:38.170 --> 00:48:40.929
that, or is he being raised to Jewish principles?

00:48:41.170 --> 00:48:43.070
Is that kind of the argument? I don't know, and

00:48:43.070 --> 00:48:45.309
I'm not sure that the scholarship gets into that,

00:48:45.389 --> 00:48:48.820
because I'm not sure that they know, okay? Let

00:48:48.820 --> 00:48:50.880
me show you what they say, and then you can consider

00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.920
what that means. So why does this even come up?

00:48:56.099 --> 00:49:00.360
Well, his mother, Alexander's mother, was married

00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:02.440
to a man who very well may have been Jewish.

00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.320
He had a last name which was extremely uncommon

00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:08.500
outside the Jewish community and very common

00:49:08.500 --> 00:49:11.880
among Jewish men. So it's highly likely that

00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:14.360
he was Jewish. And there is some evidence that

00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:17.449
she may have converted to Judaism. Not proven,

00:49:17.550 --> 00:49:19.690
but there's some evidence of that. Hard to do

00:49:19.690 --> 00:49:22.730
in any event, though. Well, on Nevis, maybe things

00:49:22.730 --> 00:49:25.269
were different. I don't know. So her marriage

00:49:25.269 --> 00:49:29.889
to the Jewish man fell apart. She gave birth

00:49:29.889 --> 00:49:33.190
to Alexander out of wedlock to the Scottish biological

00:49:33.190 --> 00:49:35.269
father. Because it's hard to get a divorce over

00:49:35.269 --> 00:49:37.349
there. Yeah, who was definitely a Christian and

00:49:37.349 --> 00:49:40.329
probably Presbyterian. But it goes further. So

00:49:40.329 --> 00:49:42.630
Hamilton, as a youth, received schooling from

00:49:42.630 --> 00:49:46.480
a Jewish headmistress on Nevis. Now, he never

00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:50.320
claimed Jewish heritage. As a teenager, he claimed

00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:51.599
to have been raised in the Church of England.

00:49:51.780 --> 00:49:53.659
That's interesting with a name like Hamilton,

00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:56.199
which is Scottish. But he also said that he had

00:49:56.199 --> 00:49:58.539
never taken communion, which was a significant

00:49:58.539 --> 00:50:01.559
thing for him to say at the time. So, it's a

00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.420
mixed bag of evidence. Yeah. He didn't claim

00:50:04.420 --> 00:50:05.960
Jewish heritage, but maybe he didn't want to

00:50:05.960 --> 00:50:08.179
tell people that he had any kind of Jewish heritage.

00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:10.260
You're asking the question, was he bar mitzvahed?

00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:13.070
I don't think that they know. Maybe if you delve

00:50:13.070 --> 00:50:14.510
into it further, you'll find out more information

00:50:14.510 --> 00:50:17.230
about that. But that didn't come up in my research

00:50:17.230 --> 00:50:19.849
as being an issue. I didn't even see this. You

00:50:19.849 --> 00:50:22.869
know, like the book on Hamilton is the Chernow

00:50:22.869 --> 00:50:26.530
book, which is the basis for the musical, actually.

00:50:26.889 --> 00:50:29.809
Well, this is a new book. Yeah, this is post.

00:50:30.090 --> 00:50:31.989
And it's yeah, it's new scholarship. And it's

00:50:31.989 --> 00:50:34.250
something that's considered worth. really worth

00:50:34.250 --> 00:50:36.230
considering. It's not considered proof, but really

00:50:36.230 --> 00:50:38.130
worth considering. He may have actually been

00:50:38.130 --> 00:50:41.289
raised Jewish to at least some extent. That may

00:50:41.289 --> 00:50:42.969
have been part of his upbringing. I don't know

00:50:42.969 --> 00:50:45.630
how significant that is, but it just is. I'm

00:50:45.630 --> 00:50:48.369
going to make a comment. Hamilton is probably,

00:50:48.429 --> 00:50:53.780
in the most basic sense of the word, probably

00:50:53.780 --> 00:50:56.539
the most cosmopolitan of any of the founding

00:50:56.539 --> 00:51:01.219
fathers. So this is not necessarily at odds with

00:51:01.219 --> 00:51:04.940
his overall life story, that he would have some

00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:08.940
influence from Judaism, particularly growing

00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:13.300
up in the Caribbean there, as opposed to one

00:51:13.300 --> 00:51:16.199
of the major colonies here. Hamilton also kind

00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:20.159
of tries to reinvent himself, I will argue, as

00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:24.329
almost more Catholic than the Pope, more waspy

00:51:24.329 --> 00:51:28.369
than than anybody else once he gets to america

00:51:28.369 --> 00:51:31.849
takes up his scholarship at king's college and

00:51:31.849 --> 00:51:34.849
becomes an aide to washington during the revolutionary

00:51:34.849 --> 00:51:39.869
war he he basically goes goes hogwild into kind

00:51:39.869 --> 00:51:42.710
of being more part of the establishment than

00:51:42.710 --> 00:51:46.590
he was actually born into so i'm going to cover

00:51:46.590 --> 00:51:49.880
some of that Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to... I

00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:52.639
didn't mean to... That completes my talk on Alexander

00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:55.239
Allen. I'm sorry. I thought that was coming,

00:51:55.340 --> 00:51:57.619
yeah. No, no, we're going to talk about some

00:51:57.619 --> 00:52:00.320
of this, okay? Not some of the details you're

00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:01.639
providing, but we're going to talk about it.

00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:05.480
Okay. That's fine. So, whether he was raised

00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:07.179
Jewish or to what extent he was raised Jewish

00:52:07.179 --> 00:52:10.340
or not, okay, regardless, he appears to have

00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:14.360
become an ardent Christian. He certainly was

00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:17.929
an ardent Christian in his late teens. A destructive

00:52:17.929 --> 00:52:20.610
hurricane hit Nevis when he was 17 years old.

00:52:20.809 --> 00:52:22.789
And in the aftermath of that hurricane, he wrote

00:52:22.789 --> 00:52:25.489
a sermon about it. In that sermon, he exhorted

00:52:25.489 --> 00:52:29.090
the privileged people of the island to be humble

00:52:29.090 --> 00:52:33.889
before the scythe of God and to use their superfluity,

00:52:33.949 --> 00:52:36.349
by which I believe he's referring to their money,

00:52:36.469 --> 00:52:38.489
all the extra money they have that they don't

00:52:38.489 --> 00:52:40.769
need, according to him, to help the less fortunate.

00:52:41.130 --> 00:52:43.590
Interesting position for Hamilton to take. Yeah.

00:52:43.650 --> 00:52:47.670
So at age 17, he comes across as an ardent Christian.

00:52:47.829 --> 00:52:50.150
And in fact, this sermon brought him to the attention

00:52:50.150 --> 00:52:53.030
of a Presbyterian minister who sponsored his

00:52:53.030 --> 00:52:55.269
move to America. Now, you were talking about,

00:52:55.309 --> 00:52:57.670
you know, that the cosmopolitan nature of his

00:52:57.670 --> 00:53:00.170
upbringing, right? So we have some kind of Jewish

00:53:00.170 --> 00:53:03.230
aspect probably going on in his childhood. Or

00:53:03.230 --> 00:53:06.070
influence. Influence, at least, right? We have

00:53:06.070 --> 00:53:09.760
his... profession of being Church of England

00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.500
all along, but never taking communion. We have

00:53:12.500 --> 00:53:15.079
a Presbyterian minister bringing him to North

00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:20.260
America. So there's a bunch of different religious

00:53:20.260 --> 00:53:22.820
things going on in his background, and it's maybe

00:53:22.820 --> 00:53:25.239
a little bit chaotic, and it's not all that well

00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:26.860
documented, so it's a little bit hard to tell

00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:29.960
exactly how it all fits together. Well, when

00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:33.119
you're illegitimate, you lead a chaotic life,

00:53:33.219 --> 00:53:36.960
and Hamilton was always, I would argue, in search

00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:42.239
of a father figure, which starts out maybe with

00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:44.679
this Presbyterian guy who's sponsoring to go

00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:48.860
to university in New York City, but it later

00:53:48.860 --> 00:53:52.099
becomes Washington, for sure. How old was he

00:53:52.099 --> 00:53:55.380
when he came to the mainland? Exact age, I'm

00:53:55.380 --> 00:53:57.679
not sure, but it was based on this sermon when

00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:00.239
he was 17, so he must have been 17 or 18. Yeah,

00:54:00.380 --> 00:54:02.880
so it was like a teenager. Late teens, for sure.

00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:07.179
It's not unusual for someone to be... very young

00:54:07.179 --> 00:54:10.260
to go to university at that time. Right. You're

00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:11.920
talking about his upbringing. He did have a pretty

00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:15.820
chaotic upbringing. You know, his father, biological

00:54:15.820 --> 00:54:18.199
father, vanished after he and his mother broke

00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:22.079
up. His mother died. A cousin took him on as

00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:23.500
being like his guardian, but then the cousin

00:54:23.500 --> 00:54:25.800
committed suicide. He had an aunt, an uncle,

00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:28.780
grandmother. They all died. There were bankruptcies.

00:54:28.940 --> 00:54:32.170
There were... scandals, because he was born out

00:54:32.170 --> 00:54:34.369
of wedlock, and also because of that there was

00:54:34.369 --> 00:54:36.170
disinheritance. I mean, all sorts of things he

00:54:36.170 --> 00:54:39.190
was dealing with as a... And this is all before

00:54:39.190 --> 00:54:42.429
20. Yeah, as a child. Yes. You know, and people

00:54:42.429 --> 00:54:44.449
who experience those kind of things in life,

00:54:44.550 --> 00:54:46.050
not all of them, but there are a lot of people

00:54:46.050 --> 00:54:48.309
who then turn to religion for comfort, consolation,

00:54:48.389 --> 00:54:50.389
inspiration, and all that, right? Maybe he was

00:54:50.389 --> 00:54:52.170
one of those people. I don't know. I'm just throwing

00:54:52.170 --> 00:54:54.570
that out there as a possibility based on the

00:54:54.570 --> 00:54:57.369
childhood he experienced. Because by age 17,

00:54:57.510 --> 00:54:59.369
when the hurricane came through, he... Came across

00:54:59.369 --> 00:55:01.849
as an ardent Christian. He impressed people as

00:55:01.849 --> 00:55:05.670
one. And he's also looking for stability in life,

00:55:05.730 --> 00:55:08.650
I would argue, as well. Back to this issue of

00:55:08.650 --> 00:55:11.630
his association with Judaism, by the way. There

00:55:11.630 --> 00:55:13.610
is a little bit more on that that comes out in

00:55:13.610 --> 00:55:16.750
the recent scholarship. It was noted in that

00:55:16.750 --> 00:55:18.809
scholarship, but then also earlier, that he showed

00:55:18.809 --> 00:55:21.690
an affinity for the Jewish community in the colonies,

00:55:21.789 --> 00:55:24.230
and later the United States, to an extent beyond

00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:27.190
that of any of the other founding fathers. The

00:55:27.190 --> 00:55:29.070
other founding fathers' views of Judaism ranged

00:55:29.070 --> 00:55:32.090
anywhere from toleration to out -and -out anti

00:55:32.090 --> 00:55:34.409
-Semitism. But Hamilton had connections with

00:55:34.409 --> 00:55:38.989
various American Jewish communities. Even though

00:55:38.989 --> 00:55:41.150
the people of that time did not know anything

00:55:41.150 --> 00:55:43.789
about this possible Jewish upbringing that's

00:55:43.789 --> 00:55:47.250
been discovered recently, his financial policies

00:55:47.250 --> 00:55:48.929
in the early United States, when he was Secretary

00:55:48.929 --> 00:55:52.429
of the Treasury from 1789 to 1795, he favored

00:55:52.429 --> 00:55:54.250
a national bank and a national assumption of

00:55:54.250 --> 00:55:56.670
debt. And those are things that just fit into

00:55:56.670 --> 00:55:59.269
anti -Semitic tropes. Yes. And so there was a

00:55:59.269 --> 00:56:01.909
tremendous amount of anti -Semitic opprobrium

00:56:01.909 --> 00:56:04.530
towards him personally, which is kind of ironic.

00:56:04.710 --> 00:56:07.210
And when you think about it, he may have been

00:56:07.210 --> 00:56:09.510
very closely associated with Jewish people, if

00:56:09.510 --> 00:56:12.409
not kind of Jewish himself and his upbringing.

00:56:12.550 --> 00:56:14.650
And to hear this must have had an effect on him

00:56:14.650 --> 00:56:20.909
as well. Well, if he's down in the Caribbean,

00:56:21.150 --> 00:56:25.699
this is a highly commercial culture. And so he

00:56:25.699 --> 00:56:29.159
is actually going to be very much associated

00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:32.559
with the commercial interest, just where he's

00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:36.039
born. And based on what we have discussed when

00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:37.840
we talked about the various Jewish communities

00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:44.960
in Boston, New York, and Newport, the basic profession

00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.460
of these people in these communities was commercial

00:56:48.460 --> 00:56:52.679
and mercantile. Hamilton probably would have

00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:56.320
had closer contact with that community than any

00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:58.260
of the other founding fathers, just given his

00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:02.480
background and subsequent associations. So it's

00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:05.099
been pointed out that regardless of whether he

00:57:05.099 --> 00:57:07.760
had any Jewish aspect to his upbringing, it could

00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:10.500
be that the experience that he had as Secretary

00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:13.380
of the Treasury with all the anti -Semitic stuff

00:57:13.380 --> 00:57:16.679
that he heard, you know, leveled at people during

00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:19.630
his tenure. about finance and such, may have

00:57:19.630 --> 00:57:21.449
made him better understand the plight of the

00:57:21.449 --> 00:57:23.730
Jewish community and the kind of anti -Semitic

00:57:23.730 --> 00:57:25.369
tropes that they always put up with all the time.

00:57:25.409 --> 00:57:29.469
So in defending a Jewish client once as a lawyer

00:57:29.469 --> 00:57:33.710
in New York, he got up and said, has he forgotten?

00:57:33.929 --> 00:57:35.949
I guess he's talking about the guy that's, you

00:57:35.949 --> 00:57:37.849
know, the prosecutor or whatever it is, or the

00:57:37.849 --> 00:57:40.789
opponent, the opponent anyway. Has he forgotten?

00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:44.019
What this race once were when under the immediate

00:57:44.019 --> 00:57:46.039
government of God himself, they were selected

00:57:46.039 --> 00:57:48.179
as the witnesses of his miracles and charged

00:57:48.179 --> 00:57:50.980
with the spirit of his prophecy. So that's very

00:57:50.980 --> 00:57:53.940
much Old Testament biblical. That does sound

00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:56.639
a little bit at odds with what some of the other

00:57:56.639 --> 00:57:58.800
founding fathers believed, particularly with

00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:01.800
the discussion of miracles and things like that,

00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:05.340
though. Sure. Well, yeah. He also went on to

00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:09.019
say, be the injured party, Jew or Gentile or

00:58:09.019 --> 00:58:13.480
Christian or pagan. Foreign or native, she, Lady

00:58:13.480 --> 00:58:17.139
Liberty, she, clothes him with her mantle in

00:58:17.139 --> 00:58:19.820
whose presence all differences of faiths or births

00:58:19.820 --> 00:58:23.000
of passions or prejudices, all are called to

00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:26.800
acknowledge and revere her supremacy. So there

00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:29.599
he's making an argument about how people of different

00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:31.280
religious faiths should get the same protection

00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:34.000
of the law. Consistent with what we've seen elsewhere.

00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:38.400
Which is a close cousin of the idea of freedom

00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:40.550
of religion in the first place, isn't it? So

00:58:40.550 --> 00:58:44.190
he expressed those beliefs. Now, what also happened,

00:58:44.230 --> 00:58:45.590
though, is in the middle of his life, now he

00:58:45.590 --> 00:58:48.829
only lived to be about 49 years old. So the middle

00:58:48.829 --> 00:58:50.489
of his life isn't middle age. The middle of his

00:58:50.489 --> 00:58:53.250
life is maybe his 30s or so, right? In the middle

00:58:53.250 --> 00:58:55.250
of his life, he seems to have kind of fallen

00:58:55.250 --> 00:58:57.869
off the wagon when it comes to religion. There's

00:58:57.869 --> 00:59:00.769
signs that he became quite cynical. He had distanced

00:59:00.769 --> 00:59:03.519
himself from religious belief. When the Constitution

00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:05.679
was written, someone asked him, why no God in

00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:07.340
the Constitution? And he just kind of flippantly

00:59:07.340 --> 00:59:11.139
said, we forgot. He had an affair with a married

00:59:11.139 --> 00:59:13.500
woman, which was America's first major sex scandal.

00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.440
Oh, yes. And it horrified religious people that

00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.320
he had done this. And at the time, he did not

00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:21.639
regularly attend church. So all of these things

00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:24.650
suggest that in the middle of his life. He distanced

00:59:24.650 --> 00:59:26.309
himself from religion. He wasn't following the

00:59:26.309 --> 00:59:28.329
beliefs or the practices really in any way and

00:59:28.329 --> 00:59:30.789
was giving in to, you know, animal passions and

00:59:30.789 --> 00:59:33.690
things like that. He could get frustrated very

00:59:33.690 --> 00:59:38.570
easily, you know, and he would seek redress in

00:59:38.570 --> 00:59:42.369
various ways. This affair was not inconsistent

00:59:42.369 --> 00:59:46.349
with his earlier behavior because Martha Washington

00:59:46.349 --> 00:59:49.610
famously named her Tomcat Hamilton because he

00:59:49.610 --> 00:59:54.349
was always at the... female feline cats and making

00:59:54.349 --> 00:59:57.489
his way around there. And so this was something

00:59:57.489 --> 00:59:59.989
that was readily understood by people, but it

00:59:59.989 --> 01:00:03.690
wasn't made public like the scandal involving

01:00:03.690 --> 01:00:07.809
his mistress there. So that was his second phase,

01:00:07.969 --> 01:00:10.250
his more or less non -religious phase, apparently,

01:00:10.309 --> 01:00:12.650
of his life. But then later in his life, religion

01:00:12.650 --> 01:00:15.289
began to preoccupy him. He became quite religious

01:00:15.289 --> 01:00:17.769
again. Is this when he's Secretary of the Treasury

01:00:17.769 --> 01:00:20.860
or after? I don't have an exact time link between

01:00:20.860 --> 01:00:23.980
those two. Probably around that time, though,

01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:27.099
because he was horrified by the excesses of the

01:00:27.099 --> 01:00:29.440
French Revolution. And the French Revolution

01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:32.119
kicked off in 1789 and went on for a good 10

01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:34.179
years, depending how you want to count. He was

01:00:34.179 --> 01:00:37.119
horrified by that. And that's right about the

01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:39.719
same time as the drafting of the Constitution

01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:41.940
and all that is when the French Revolution happened,

01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:44.900
right? 1789. So he was horrified by that, by

01:00:44.900 --> 01:00:47.590
the French Revolution. He viewed it. what they

01:00:47.590 --> 01:00:50.269
had done as terrible in terms of their excesses.

01:00:50.269 --> 01:00:53.650
And then they're also trying to come in and undermine

01:00:53.650 --> 01:00:57.789
the federal government with their own agents

01:00:57.789 --> 01:01:02.510
to make for a more pro -French foreign policy.

01:01:02.789 --> 01:01:07.579
Who are they? The French. The French Revolutionary

01:01:07.579 --> 01:01:10.460
Government had their own agent. In the United

01:01:10.460 --> 01:01:12.760
States. In the United States, Citizen Jeunet,

01:01:12.940 --> 01:01:16.420
he was known. And Citizen Jeunet was here to

01:01:16.420 --> 01:01:19.960
influence policy, which Hamilton was more pro

01:01:19.960 --> 01:01:23.559
-British because of the whole commercial orientation,

01:01:24.019 --> 01:01:27.159
our leading trading partner had been Britain.

01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:30.320
And that's where he saw where the United States

01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:33.260
should emphasize this foreign policy because

01:01:33.260 --> 01:01:36.579
it was about... commercial interest in making

01:01:36.579 --> 01:01:40.119
for a sound economic system. Well, that being

01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:41.960
said about the commercial aspects of what he

01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:44.239
thought, it's also that he was horrified by the

01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:45.900
excesses of the French Revolution and he wrote

01:01:45.900 --> 01:01:48.199
several essays critical of the efforts of the

01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:52.300
French to overthrow the Christian religion. Because

01:01:52.300 --> 01:01:55.480
he said that to do so would rob, quote, mankind

01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:58.400
of its best consolations and most animating hopes

01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:02.119
and make a gloomy desert of the universe. He

01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:05.280
noted the praise of a civilized world is justly

01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:08.460
due to Christianity. So by around this time,

01:02:08.539 --> 01:02:12.099
he'd gone back again to being very, very pro

01:02:12.099 --> 01:02:16.280
-religion and very pro -Christian. He said that

01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:18.860
Christianity, later in his life, he said Christianity

01:02:18.860 --> 01:02:21.440
formed the basis of all law and morality and,

01:02:21.460 --> 01:02:23.679
quote, the world would be a hellish place without

01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:27.300
it, as one observer noted. But he's not focusing

01:02:27.300 --> 01:02:30.340
on miracles. He's not focusing on life everlasting.

01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:34.440
He's focusing on order and more public morality,

01:02:34.760 --> 01:02:37.920
though, when he makes these statements. Yes,

01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:42.880
although he also mentions mankind's best consolations

01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:46.760
and most animating hopes. Okay. So that's life

01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:47.320
everlasting. And without those, it would be a

01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:49.760
gloomy desert of the universe without him. So,

01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:51.880
I mean, yeah, there's more to it than that in

01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:55.280
his thinking. As Inspector General of the new

01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:57.780
United States Army in the Revolutionary War,

01:02:57.840 --> 01:02:59.460
we had the Continental Army in the Revolutionary

01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:01.400
War. That was done away with, but then we created

01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:03.019
the United States Army, which we have today.

01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:05.559
He asked that Congress fund a chaplain for every

01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:10.039
brigade in the Army. In 1802, he and his wife,

01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:12.539
Eliza, purchased a country home, which they called

01:03:12.539 --> 01:03:16.960
the Grange. Which is now in Manhattan proper,

01:03:17.179 --> 01:03:19.219
just given the growth of the city. Yeah. Being

01:03:19.219 --> 01:03:20.780
at the Grange allowed Hamilton to spend more

01:03:20.780 --> 01:03:22.440
time with his children. And on Sunday mornings,

01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:25.119
they gathered in the garden to sing hymns. And

01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:26.940
Hamilton read the Bible aloud to his family.

01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:28.840
And he also spoke to his wife about his desire

01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:30.840
to build a chapel on the property. So he was

01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:33.239
getting very much into religion in the last years

01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:36.019
of his life. He was the driving force behind

01:03:36.019 --> 01:03:38.079
an effort to form something called the Christian

01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:42.340
Constitutional Society. He proposed it in 1802,

01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:46.440
along with a fellow named James Baird. And the

01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:48.900
Christian Constitutional Society was supposed

01:03:48.900 --> 01:03:51.280
to bolster the Federalist Party, that was his

01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:54.599
political party, against Thomas Jefferson by

01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:57.260
uniting Christian faith with political activism.

01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:00.099
Its goals were to support the Christian religion

01:04:00.099 --> 01:04:03.880
and the U .S. Constitution. He intended it to

01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:06.800
organize voters, support worthy candidates, and

01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:08.820
spread political information, and this reflected

01:04:08.820 --> 01:04:10.940
a late -life focus he had on connecting public

01:04:10.940 --> 01:04:14.280
faith to political action. In an 1802 letter

01:04:14.280 --> 01:04:17.800
to the co -founder of the society, James Baird,

01:04:17.820 --> 01:04:20.639
he said that the society's object is, first,

01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:23.179
the support of the Christian religion, second,

01:04:23.460 --> 01:04:27.059
the support of the United States. I have carefully

01:04:27.059 --> 01:04:28.940
examined the evidence of the Christian religion,

01:04:29.099 --> 01:04:31.710
he told a friend. And if I was sitting as a juror

01:04:31.710 --> 01:04:33.949
upon its authenticity, I would unhesitatingly

01:04:33.949 --> 01:04:37.110
give my verdict in its favor. And to his wife,

01:04:37.150 --> 01:04:39.110
he said, I have studied it and I can prove its

01:04:39.110 --> 01:04:42.030
truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted

01:04:42.030 --> 01:04:45.630
to the mind of man. There was a big issue when

01:04:45.630 --> 01:04:47.530
he was on his deathbed. Now, he went and fought

01:04:47.530 --> 01:04:49.969
a duel with Aaron Burr. Aaron Burr. Who was vice

01:04:49.969 --> 01:04:53.190
president at the time. Supposedly, he alleged

01:04:53.190 --> 01:04:58.019
the sort of thing that... got Hamilton to this

01:04:58.019 --> 01:05:02.320
point. He made a comment, this is a theory, it's

01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:05.139
not a fact, because the real reason is not known,

01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:07.739
but he made a comment about Hamilton having,

01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:11.579
about Burr having incest with his daughter, Theodosia,

01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:15.760
and this so outraged Burr. that that's what led

01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:17.179
to the challenge. So it was a matter of honor.

01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:19.820
Yes. Well, anyway, he went and fought a duel

01:05:19.820 --> 01:05:22.260
with Burr. He lost. He was shot. He was taken

01:05:22.260 --> 01:05:24.519
to his deathbed. He lived 31 hours after he was

01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:27.719
shot before he died in 1804. And there was a

01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:29.699
big dramatic thing there on his deathbed where

01:05:29.699 --> 01:05:32.980
he was desperate to receive communion before

01:05:32.980 --> 01:05:35.739
he died. He asked the rector of Trinity Church,

01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:37.880
the Episcopal Bishop of New York, president of

01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:39.840
Columbia College, was the first guy he asked.

01:05:39.860 --> 01:05:44.300
He said, would you give me communion? the Reverend

01:05:44.300 --> 01:05:48.320
Benjamin Moore, and Moore said no, because the

01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:52.380
practice of dueling was horribly immoral and

01:05:52.380 --> 01:05:55.420
wrong, and he had been morally wounded in a duel,

01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:57.679
and also because he'd not been a regular churchgoer.

01:05:57.860 --> 01:06:01.480
So no. So Hamilton turned to a friend of his

01:06:01.480 --> 01:06:03.619
who was the Reverend John M. Mason, who was the

01:06:03.619 --> 01:06:06.679
pastor of Scotch Presbyterian Church. Mason also

01:06:06.679 --> 01:06:09.059
said no. He said his church had a principle of

01:06:09.059 --> 01:06:12.420
never offering the Lord's Supper privately to

01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:15.840
any person. under any circumstances. But then

01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:18.679
finally Mason relented, came back and said, okay,

01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:20.199
I'll give you communion and gave him communion.

01:06:20.500 --> 01:06:23.920
And that was very comforting to Hamilton. He

01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:25.599
said, I'm a sinner. I have a tender reliance

01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:27.179
on the mercy of the almighty through the merits

01:06:27.179 --> 01:06:30.320
of the Lord Jesus Christ. And that convinced,

01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:32.260
I guess that convinced Moore to have a change

01:06:32.260 --> 01:06:34.940
of heart and minister communion. After his passing,

01:06:35.099 --> 01:06:37.929
Eliza noticed, discovered a hymn. and a letter

01:06:37.929 --> 01:06:39.969
that Hamilton wrote for her on the morning before

01:06:39.969 --> 01:06:42.349
the duel. And at the end, he instructed, fly

01:06:42.349 --> 01:06:44.349
to the bosom of your God and be comforted with

01:06:44.349 --> 01:06:46.369
my last idea. I shall cherish the sweet hope

01:06:46.369 --> 01:06:48.349
of meeting you in a better world. Adieu, best

01:06:48.349 --> 01:06:50.809
of wives and best of women. Embrace all my darling

01:06:50.809 --> 01:06:55.389
children for me, ever yours, A .H. So he went

01:06:55.389 --> 01:06:58.809
through three phases in his childhood. He had

01:06:58.809 --> 01:07:01.849
a difficult childhood. There may or may not have

01:07:01.849 --> 01:07:03.670
been Jewish influence on him to some extent.

01:07:03.789 --> 01:07:06.690
There probably was some. He became an ardent

01:07:06.690 --> 01:07:09.510
Christian. Then he kind of stopped practicing

01:07:09.510 --> 01:07:12.349
religion for a while. Then later in life, and

01:07:12.349 --> 01:07:14.230
maybe it was the excesses of the French Revolution

01:07:14.230 --> 01:07:16.090
that prompted this in him. I don't know that

01:07:16.090 --> 01:07:17.829
for sure, but it was around that time, apparently.

01:07:18.010 --> 01:07:20.150
He then became more preoccupied with religion

01:07:20.150 --> 01:07:22.510
to the point where it pretty much was a driving

01:07:22.510 --> 01:07:24.710
force in his life in his last years. And that's

01:07:24.710 --> 01:07:27.110
Alexander Hamilton. I can believe that. I'm just

01:07:27.110 --> 01:07:30.670
going to make—I have read the Chernow book, which,

01:07:30.690 --> 01:07:32.710
again, is supposed to be like the definitive

01:07:32.710 --> 01:07:36.329
book on Hamilton. and I've read other books on

01:07:36.329 --> 01:07:43.110
Hamilton. I think Hamilton had this amazing period

01:07:43.110 --> 01:07:47.349
in his life, which I would say is roughly the

01:07:47.349 --> 01:07:50.610
Constitutional Convention all the way up to when

01:07:50.610 --> 01:07:53.750
he resigns as Secretary of the Treasury for the,

01:07:53.909 --> 01:07:58.210
I think her name was Mariah Roberts. That was

01:07:58.210 --> 01:07:59.869
the woman he was having the affair with, and

01:07:59.869 --> 01:08:03.730
she was actually kind of using him for her own,

01:08:04.269 --> 01:08:06.389
financial purposes with her husband. She was

01:08:06.389 --> 01:08:10.210
having this affair with Hamilton along with the

01:08:10.210 --> 01:08:12.909
husband's permission and agreement because of

01:08:12.909 --> 01:08:16.470
the inside information she could gain from Hamilton

01:08:16.470 --> 01:08:19.270
that benefited them. I think Hamilton out of

01:08:19.270 --> 01:08:22.750
power without really a future to work towards

01:08:22.750 --> 01:08:28.779
made him absolutely dangerous. into the point

01:08:28.779 --> 01:08:31.300
that he really wanted to have a war with France,

01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:33.979
which we were not really prepared for. And I

01:08:33.979 --> 01:08:35.880
think this might have also accounted for some

01:08:35.880 --> 01:08:41.079
of his greater religiosity as he found himself.

01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:43.180
Because he was kind of isolated. He was used

01:08:43.180 --> 01:08:47.760
to a larger area to operate in as treasurer of

01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:49.760
the federal government. He was a great treasurer,

01:08:49.819 --> 01:08:53.720
and the things that he proposed and did were

01:08:53.720 --> 01:08:56.119
great. But once he's out of office, he becomes

01:08:56.119 --> 01:08:59.689
kind of, a nuisance. He was definitely a nuisance

01:08:59.689 --> 01:09:02.229
to John Adams. He was constantly writing him

01:09:02.229 --> 01:09:07.869
about designs for buttons. You're engaging the

01:09:07.869 --> 01:09:09.750
president of the United States who was trying

01:09:09.750 --> 01:09:12.630
to avoid a war with France, which Hamilton is

01:09:12.630 --> 01:09:15.829
pushing for. Hamilton is a member of Adams' party,

01:09:16.109 --> 01:09:18.609
and he's sending him designs for buttons, and

01:09:18.609 --> 01:09:20.729
he wants Adams to write him a note commenting

01:09:20.729 --> 01:09:25.699
on it. And then when Adams is not really... responding

01:09:25.699 --> 01:09:29.279
as he would like, he kind of tries to bring Washington

01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:34.159
back on the political scene to be like the general

01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:36.960
who is going to fight this war with the French,

01:09:37.100 --> 01:09:39.899
which ensures that Hamilton is going to get preferential

01:09:39.899 --> 01:09:43.159
treatment because Hamilton is kind of like one

01:09:43.159 --> 01:09:47.060
of the sons that Washington never had. And he

01:09:47.060 --> 01:09:49.300
could be quite resentful to Washington at times,

01:09:49.340 --> 01:09:52.500
but it's just... I feel Hamilton just kind of

01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:56.100
like came undone. And that might reflect why

01:09:56.100 --> 01:09:59.220
he adopted some of these contrary religious views

01:09:59.220 --> 01:10:03.760
later on in life. You mentioned Chernow and the

01:10:03.760 --> 01:10:08.140
quote about Hamilton thought that the world would

01:10:08.140 --> 01:10:09.779
be a hellish place without it. Christianity,

01:10:09.840 --> 01:10:13.279
that's from Chernow's book. And Chernow also

01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:15.560
notes, it is striking how religion preoccupied

01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:35.880
Hamilton during his final years. Okay, so we've

01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:41.060
covered 10 of the founding fathers in great detail.

01:10:41.560 --> 01:10:45.899
Are there any common themes and ideas that continue

01:10:45.899 --> 01:10:50.460
to appear? To me, what I see over and over again

01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:56.380
in various ways is that these men came from different

01:10:56.380 --> 01:10:58.800
faith traditions, right? Different denominations.

01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:00.680
But all Christian. Different sets of belief.

01:11:00.859 --> 01:11:06.380
All Christian? Yeah. They seem to share an idea

01:11:06.380 --> 01:11:11.100
that civil tranquility was very important to

01:11:11.100 --> 01:11:13.420
them. And again, this makes sense because of

01:11:13.420 --> 01:11:16.659
the religious wars of the 17th century. Even

01:11:16.659 --> 01:11:21.100
if you look at the history that's going on in

01:11:21.100 --> 01:11:23.619
Britain at the beginning of the 18th century,

01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:28.279
it is about how these religious differences are

01:11:28.279 --> 01:11:30.020
kind of undermining the ability of the state

01:11:30.020 --> 01:11:34.720
to function. Yes. They were very concerned that

01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:39.420
you have a society which is tranquil. They didn't

01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:43.020
want to have civil strife. And order. Well, to

01:11:43.020 --> 01:11:44.500
have tranquility, you have to have order. If

01:11:44.500 --> 01:11:45.979
you don't have order, it won't be very tranquil.

01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:48.880
So yes, and civil order, correct. And at least

01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:52.020
initially, at least initially for most of them,

01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:57.170
there is this desire to avoid party. friction,

01:11:57.170 --> 01:12:01.510
the kind of distinctions with party. And parties

01:12:01.510 --> 01:12:05.130
were based around religion over in England. The

01:12:05.130 --> 01:12:07.529
Tories were all like high Anglicans. Sure, sure.

01:12:07.590 --> 01:12:09.810
But fundamentally, you're coming down to a religious

01:12:09.810 --> 01:12:11.829
issue there, right? Yes. And in terms of religion,

01:12:12.090 --> 01:12:14.609
they didn't want religion to be a source of strife.

01:12:15.350 --> 01:12:17.630
Therefore, they thought that the only way to

01:12:17.630 --> 01:12:20.270
avoid religion becoming a source of strife within

01:12:20.270 --> 01:12:23.449
society is to not try to limit or control it.

01:12:23.710 --> 01:12:28.050
Because whenever a a particular denomination

01:12:28.050 --> 01:12:31.710
is favored by the government, it's going to cause

01:12:31.710 --> 01:12:35.470
friction. It's going to end in strife. So you

01:12:35.470 --> 01:12:39.470
must tolerate or go beyond toleration. You must

01:12:39.470 --> 01:12:41.890
require that the government be neutral toward

01:12:41.890 --> 01:12:45.310
all religions. At the same time, I think another

01:12:45.310 --> 01:12:48.710
component of the tranquility is that religion

01:12:48.710 --> 01:12:51.770
is important to them. Yes. They believe that

01:12:51.770 --> 01:12:53.949
religion provides you with a moral framework.

01:12:54.750 --> 01:12:57.909
in which to live your life, which, because it

01:12:57.909 --> 01:13:00.390
shows you how to treat your neighbor, how to

01:13:00.390 --> 01:13:01.590
interact with your neighbor, how to treat your

01:13:01.590 --> 01:13:04.909
neighbor, that will result also in tranquility

01:13:04.909 --> 01:13:06.390
because you and your neighbor won't be fighting.

01:13:06.590 --> 01:13:09.270
So you won't have factions fighting within a

01:13:09.270 --> 01:13:11.569
government. You also won't have individuals fighting

01:13:11.569 --> 01:13:14.449
with one another if you have a religious framework

01:13:14.449 --> 01:13:17.550
for it. But if you insist on only one religious

01:13:17.550 --> 01:13:20.489
framework, then you will have strife. Yes. I

01:13:20.489 --> 01:13:23.109
see that as a common theme amongst these men.

01:13:23.579 --> 01:13:27.500
I would agree. I mean, religion as a source of

01:13:27.500 --> 01:13:30.380
public morality, religion as a source of political

01:13:30.380 --> 01:13:33.039
tranquility. When you are creating a new nation

01:13:33.039 --> 01:13:35.840
out of 13 colonies, you want to minimize the

01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:39.979
differences rather than to accentuate them. Now,

01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:42.359
Blake, I know that you've mentioned more than

01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:44.640
once about, yes, but these all were Christians.

01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:47.319
They were all Christians of one stripe or another.

01:13:47.579 --> 01:13:49.039
Yes, I want you to kind of extemporize on what

01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:52.119
that means to you. But did they? regard each

01:13:52.119 --> 01:13:56.239
other as Christians? Were they of the sort to

01:13:56.239 --> 01:14:00.579
believe that, say, Adams was a Christian or...

01:14:00.579 --> 01:14:02.159
Well, let's take those as two separate issues.

01:14:02.260 --> 01:14:03.600
First off, let's start just with Christianity

01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:06.039
generally. What do you think? Well, again, this

01:14:06.039 --> 01:14:09.500
was a time in which it was not acceptable to

01:14:09.500 --> 01:14:12.359
be an atheist. Yeah. And some of these people

01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:14.460
probably, I mean, I think the deists probably

01:14:14.460 --> 01:14:18.880
toyed with the idea in their minds, but would

01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:21.939
never... come out with that publicly because

01:14:21.939 --> 01:14:27.020
it was unacceptable well it also they also you

01:14:27.020 --> 01:14:32.220
know even somebody who was as as uh like voltaire

01:14:32.220 --> 01:14:35.560
voltaire who was an influence uh voltaire is

01:14:35.560 --> 01:14:38.319
having a dinner party at his home in switzerland

01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:42.380
and one of the guests is basically arguing that

01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:46.000
there is no hell And Voltaire immediately shushes

01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:48.060
him up because he's talking about this in front

01:14:48.060 --> 01:14:49.779
of the servants. And so when the servants leave,

01:14:49.800 --> 01:14:51.779
he says, do you want us to be killed in our beds?

01:14:51.880 --> 01:14:54.079
If we do not have the belief in hell to kind

01:14:54.079 --> 01:14:57.000
of motivate people to good behavior, then there

01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:00.939
will be no limits on any sort of excesses imaginable.

01:15:01.020 --> 01:15:03.600
This is not inconsistent with, say, what Burke

01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:06.420
is arguing in the reflections on the revolution

01:15:06.420 --> 01:15:09.680
in France there, which inspires Paine, Paine's

01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:13.409
Age of Reason here. So the idea that you, have

01:15:13.409 --> 01:15:16.430
a life without religion or a life without the

01:15:16.430 --> 01:15:20.069
components of religion is likely to lead to civil

01:15:20.069 --> 01:15:22.770
strife or people just basically going crazy.

01:15:23.170 --> 01:15:24.930
Yeah, I mean, and I think that fits with this,

01:15:24.989 --> 01:15:26.590
again, like we said, the idea that - It may plug

01:15:26.590 --> 01:15:30.109
back into this morality. Religion is a fundamental

01:15:30.109 --> 01:15:32.489
basis of morality that a lot of them seem to

01:15:32.489 --> 01:15:35.470
- Even with the most extreme elements of the

01:15:35.470 --> 01:15:38.430
Enlightenment, like Voltaire, who was also dismissed

01:15:38.430 --> 01:15:45.699
as being an atheist, he was a deist. It appears

01:15:45.699 --> 01:15:47.939
to be, you know, unacceptable to be an atheist.

01:15:47.979 --> 01:15:50.140
It also appears to be pretty unacceptable to

01:15:50.140 --> 01:15:52.560
be a Unitarian. That's what I'm kind of finding

01:15:52.560 --> 01:15:55.399
out as well from this. Not yet. Well, I mean,

01:15:55.399 --> 01:15:57.380
you know, you were saying that Adams got in a

01:15:57.380 --> 01:15:59.520
lot of trouble for being Unitarian. John Quincy

01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:02.600
Adams did. John Adams did not. He had to tread

01:16:02.600 --> 01:16:04.840
carefully, though, about it, didn't he? No, no.

01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:08.039
He was overtly a Unitarian and no one said anything

01:16:08.039 --> 01:16:10.899
about it. I looked because I was curious about

01:16:10.899 --> 01:16:15.220
this very point. And I looked at the books that

01:16:15.220 --> 01:16:17.859
I have on the election of 1796 and the election

01:16:17.859 --> 01:16:21.880
of 1800. He does not get any criticism for religious

01:16:21.880 --> 01:16:25.659
belief at all. But there is a longstanding thing

01:16:25.659 --> 01:16:27.460
dating back in the colonial times about exclusion

01:16:27.460 --> 01:16:29.439
of Unitarians, how you had to be a Trinitarian

01:16:29.439 --> 01:16:32.020
Christian. He did talk about that as well. So

01:16:32.020 --> 01:16:34.840
there was a stigma against being a Unitarian.

01:16:36.029 --> 01:16:38.289
And the various, you know, faith traditions that

01:16:38.289 --> 01:16:40.510
were founding the colonies. It didn't really

01:16:40.510 --> 01:16:44.149
become an issue until 1824 with John Quincy Adams,

01:16:44.310 --> 01:16:47.069
though. It was an issue in that time because

01:16:47.069 --> 01:16:49.609
it was considered to be. So the Unitarian problem

01:16:49.609 --> 01:16:53.529
comes up after the Great Second Great Awakening.

01:16:53.590 --> 01:16:55.550
All right. So for these guys, this wasn't an

01:16:55.550 --> 01:16:57.449
issue yet. This wasn't an issue. All right. Now

01:16:57.449 --> 01:16:59.670
I understand that better. OK, so fine. So you

01:16:59.670 --> 01:17:03.310
could be a Unitarian in this period and people

01:17:03.310 --> 01:17:06.470
would just take it. fine one of the one of the

01:17:06.470 --> 01:17:08.970
religious yeah okay that makes a lot more sense

01:17:08.970 --> 01:17:10.510
because then i was asking the wrong thing earlier

01:17:10.510 --> 01:17:11.930
in the discussion i was saying how could you

01:17:11.930 --> 01:17:14.590
be deist and then not be in favor of unitarianism

01:17:14.590 --> 01:17:16.449
as well or accepting unitarianism but i'm confusing

01:17:16.449 --> 01:17:19.930
i guess i was confusing the the the you know

01:17:19.930 --> 01:17:22.350
the 18th century with the second great awakening

01:17:22.350 --> 01:17:24.289
then yes in fact you could be a deist and be

01:17:24.289 --> 01:17:26.050
unitarian or trinitarian nobody really cared

01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:28.800
I had that all wrong in that part of the discussion

01:17:28.800 --> 01:17:30.939
then. It's not until the Second Great Awakening

01:17:30.939 --> 01:17:32.880
comes along that we have that distinction. Yes.

01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:35.539
All right. And I think this is an important distinction.

01:17:35.539 --> 01:17:37.279
I didn't realize that either. Okay, very well.

01:17:37.380 --> 01:17:40.779
Now I get it. I think this is an important distinction

01:17:40.779 --> 01:17:44.520
to see just how things change. Because when we

01:17:44.520 --> 01:17:48.300
start getting into the period of American history.

01:17:48.920 --> 01:17:52.359
After the 1820s, the so -called Age of Jackson,

01:17:52.439 --> 01:17:54.279
the period in which the Second Great Awakening

01:17:54.279 --> 01:17:59.979
is kind of in full throttle, life becomes very

01:17:59.979 --> 01:18:04.619
much more patriarchal and conservative in how

01:18:04.619 --> 01:18:07.960
people view society in general than they did

01:18:07.960 --> 01:18:11.550
during the... founding fathers in the Enlightenment,

01:18:11.590 --> 01:18:14.369
and some of this has to do with the French Revolution

01:18:14.369 --> 01:18:20.090
and people's reaction to that. So we'll get into

01:18:20.090 --> 01:18:22.770
that next time. Yes. But in terms of the founding

01:18:22.770 --> 01:18:25.810
fathers then, okay, so... They're all of Christian

01:18:25.810 --> 01:18:28.350
background, Judeo -Christian values. They grew

01:18:28.350 --> 01:18:32.010
up in some kind of a church. And it influenced

01:18:32.010 --> 01:18:35.270
them. And it influenced them. And they continued,

01:18:35.310 --> 01:18:38.510
whether they fully believed it or not, they continued

01:18:38.510 --> 01:18:43.210
to go to church and engage in the ritual. Unless

01:18:43.210 --> 01:18:45.409
you're getting into pain and he's the extreme.

01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:49.310
Correct. It's sort of like Hamilton is one extreme,

01:18:49.649 --> 01:18:52.130
Hamilton, late Hamilton is one extreme, and pain

01:18:52.130 --> 01:18:54.770
is the other extreme. You know, when we think

01:18:54.770 --> 01:18:56.770
about the founding of the colonies, right, and

01:18:56.770 --> 01:18:59.189
we talk, the various colonies, and we talk about...

01:18:59.710 --> 01:19:02.609
Roger Williams in Rhode Island. You know, he

01:19:02.609 --> 01:19:06.489
may have reflected best what the founders intended,

01:19:06.649 --> 01:19:08.529
really, when he founded Rhode Island. Right.

01:19:08.710 --> 01:19:12.010
You know, because he himself was a Puritan. He

01:19:12.010 --> 01:19:15.229
was a devout Puritan. He just felt that you shouldn't

01:19:15.229 --> 01:19:17.250
order everybody else around the way Puritans

01:19:17.250 --> 01:19:18.930
tended to do and tell them what to believe because

01:19:18.930 --> 01:19:20.869
he thought that corrupted religion. He thought

01:19:20.869 --> 01:19:23.260
you needed to be religiously tolerant. It was

01:19:23.260 --> 01:19:24.819
fine to engage other people about their religious

01:19:24.819 --> 01:19:26.619
beliefs, but not dictate them to them and that

01:19:26.619 --> 01:19:28.600
kind of thing. That's really, to me, a precursor

01:19:28.600 --> 01:19:30.479
of the way this kind of worked out with the founders,

01:19:30.619 --> 01:19:34.399
you know, 100 and something years later. Well,

01:19:34.420 --> 01:19:37.699
as what became the United States became more

01:19:37.699 --> 01:19:41.020
religiously diverse, because you have the founding

01:19:41.020 --> 01:19:42.979
of the colonies, and then by the time you get

01:19:42.979 --> 01:19:46.300
to the revolution, you don't really have single

01:19:46.300 --> 01:19:49.100
faith elements in any of the colonies. No, they

01:19:49.100 --> 01:19:52.590
all evolved, even Maryland. which was started

01:19:52.590 --> 01:19:55.970
by Catholics became... Catholics become minorities.

01:19:55.989 --> 01:19:58.510
They become a minority. We discussed that last

01:19:58.510 --> 01:20:00.189
time, but I'm just trying to say now when we

01:20:00.189 --> 01:20:02.390
look at the founders themselves, which is our

01:20:02.390 --> 01:20:04.369
topic this time, the act that the people involved

01:20:04.369 --> 01:20:08.069
in it, we're also seeing how they were expressing

01:20:08.069 --> 01:20:10.670
a lot of ideas that I thought that Roger Williams

01:20:10.670 --> 01:20:12.810
was a precursor of that in the way he was looking

01:20:12.810 --> 01:20:15.130
at the foundation of Rhode Island in many ways.

01:20:15.310 --> 01:20:18.109
So, I mean, I think that they understood that...

01:20:18.300 --> 01:20:20.359
Like, you know, Marshall, you've said there isn't

01:20:20.359 --> 01:20:23.380
just one Christianity, right? There's all sorts

01:20:23.380 --> 01:20:25.380
of different beliefs that fall under the umbrella

01:20:25.380 --> 01:20:27.279
of Christianity. They seem to understand that.

01:20:27.359 --> 01:20:29.960
They seem to understand that, you know, friction

01:20:29.960 --> 01:20:32.220
between the different denominations causes strife.

01:20:32.220 --> 01:20:34.279
They didn't want that. That was the big issue

01:20:34.279 --> 01:20:36.699
to them to me. We don't want religious strife.

01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:40.100
Yeah. Therefore, because of that, you have to

01:20:40.100 --> 01:20:41.899
have freedom of conscience, freedom of religion.

01:20:42.119 --> 01:20:46.180
Yeah. Now, a lot of them were deists. Which we

01:20:46.180 --> 01:20:48.619
can sort of understand, I think, but the whole

01:20:48.619 --> 01:20:55.159
deism, it removed the emotion from the religion,

01:20:55.260 --> 01:20:58.840
which is what led to the first great awakening.

01:20:58.840 --> 01:21:00.739
Christian rationalism, it's been called. Yes.

01:21:00.939 --> 01:21:02.979
In George Washington's case, for example, but

01:21:02.979 --> 01:21:05.539
others too, Christian rationalism. And Jefferson,

01:21:05.640 --> 01:21:07.159
I think, expressed this with the Jefferson Bible,

01:21:07.260 --> 01:21:11.279
cutting all the miracles. Precisely. So there's

01:21:11.279 --> 01:21:13.739
value in religion, but only through a rational

01:21:13.739 --> 01:21:15.979
view of it. not through superstitious views of

01:21:15.979 --> 01:21:17.699
it, not through emotional views of it. That was

01:21:17.699 --> 01:21:20.960
their approach to religion. And they went about

01:21:20.960 --> 01:21:24.680
it in different ways, but a lot of them seem,

01:21:24.840 --> 01:21:27.079
not all of them, but a lot of them seem to have

01:21:27.079 --> 01:21:29.899
worked their way through life developing these

01:21:29.899 --> 01:21:31.699
thoughts and then putting them into practice

01:21:31.699 --> 01:21:34.760
in terms of what they did in the First Amendment

01:21:34.760 --> 01:21:39.100
and precursors to that First Amendment. So did

01:21:39.100 --> 01:21:41.359
they found a Christian nation? What did they

01:21:41.359 --> 01:21:43.949
found? What were they trying to found? That's

01:21:43.949 --> 01:21:46.770
our question here before us. They founded a distinctly

01:21:46.770 --> 01:21:51.029
secular nation. Government. A distinctly secular

01:21:51.029 --> 01:21:54.010
government, I should have said. Informed by Christian

01:21:54.010 --> 01:21:56.930
morality. Informed by Christianity. But not dictating

01:21:56.930 --> 01:22:04.170
Christian belief. Yes. So despite their differing

01:22:04.170 --> 01:22:06.909
religious views and faith traditions, the Founding

01:22:06.909 --> 01:22:09.430
Fathers took an approach to religion in the new

01:22:09.430 --> 01:22:13.310
United States. that emphasized civic tranquility,

01:22:13.449 --> 01:22:16.970
based on a right to worship as one pleased, and

01:22:16.970 --> 01:22:19.149
on the moral guidance that religious teachings

01:22:19.149 --> 01:22:21.670
gave regarding how people should treat their

01:22:21.670 --> 01:22:24.850
neighbors. Influenced by the Age of Enlightenment,

01:22:25.050 --> 01:22:27.710
the founders emphasized reason in the practice

01:22:27.710 --> 01:22:30.930
of religion, and in the role of religion in civic

01:22:30.930 --> 01:22:34.310
affairs. But near the end of the 18th century,

01:22:34.510 --> 01:22:37.649
a new religious movement, the Second Great Awakening,

01:22:38.109 --> 01:22:40.590
would begin to sweep through the early republic.

01:22:41.189 --> 01:22:43.890
It would place an emphasis on a personal God

01:22:43.890 --> 01:22:47.729
and an emotional Christianity. We'll discuss

01:22:47.729 --> 01:22:53.890
the awakening in our next episode. That's it

01:22:53.890 --> 01:22:56.630
for this episode of the United States of Amnesia.

01:22:56.829 --> 01:22:59.350
Thank you for listening. We hope you learned

01:22:59.350 --> 01:23:01.569
something, and we hope you discovered new ways

01:23:01.569 --> 01:23:04.029
of looking at things you had already heard or

01:23:04.029 --> 01:23:06.729
thought about, or perhaps hadn't heard about.

01:23:07.180 --> 01:23:09.779
If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we made you

01:23:09.779 --> 01:23:13.420
mad, that's okay too. Either way, email us at

01:23:13.420 --> 01:23:17.479
usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know what

01:23:17.479 --> 01:23:20.100
you think. Also, let us know about anything you

01:23:20.100 --> 01:23:22.380
think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to know

01:23:22.380 --> 01:23:25.640
about that too. And of course, please like and

01:23:25.640 --> 01:23:27.560
subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

01:23:27.560 --> 01:23:31.060
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

01:23:31.060 --> 01:23:37.729
.usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself,

01:23:38.130 --> 01:23:40.029
Blake Henke. Till next time.