302: A Christian Nation? - The Colonies

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.099
For we must consider that we shall be as a city

00:00:05.099 --> 00:00:08.460
upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon

00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:12.919
us. That is a quote by John Winthrop in a famous

00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:18.280
sermon in Massachusetts Colony, 1630. It was

00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:23.500
later used in speeches by both JFK and Ronald

00:00:23.500 --> 00:00:28.519
Reagan and probably others. Welcome to the United

00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:32.259
States of Amnesia. We are the podcast that reminds

00:00:32.259 --> 00:00:35.939
us of what we have forgotten. It is often said

00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:39.280
that history repeats itself. Mark Twain allegedly

00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:42.500
said that history doesn't repeat itself, but

00:00:42.500 --> 00:00:45.299
it rhymes. But over time, many topics have become

00:00:45.299 --> 00:00:49.159
clouded by biases and oversimplifications or

00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.420
have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:55.740
Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

00:00:55.740 --> 00:00:58.600
from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:01.240
at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:20.430
for history's next rhyme. In general, the 13

00:01:20.430 --> 00:01:23.129
original colonies were separately administered

00:01:23.129 --> 00:01:27.109
under the crown, but had similar political, constitutional,

00:01:27.530 --> 00:01:30.890
and legal systems. And aside from Maryland, each

00:01:30.890 --> 00:01:33.969
one was dominated by Protestant English speakers.

00:01:34.310 --> 00:01:37.030
The first of the colonies, Virginia, was established

00:01:37.030 --> 00:01:40.840
at Jamestown in 1607. for economic purposes.

00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.900
Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New England colonies

00:01:43.900 --> 00:01:46.680
were substantially motivated by their founders'

00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:48.900
concerns related to the practice of religion.

00:01:49.180 --> 00:01:51.340
Other colonies were founded for business and

00:01:51.340 --> 00:01:54.120
economic expansion. Think Virginia, but also

00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.099
the Carolinas predominantly. The middle colonies,

00:01:57.340 --> 00:02:00.379
New York to Delaware, were established on the

00:02:00.379 --> 00:02:03.079
former Dutch colony of New Netherland and were

00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.000
mixed in terms of religious history and outlook.

00:02:06.180 --> 00:02:08.740
So let's discuss the colonies one by one, starting

00:02:08.740 --> 00:02:14.030
with the Southern Colonies. The religious history

00:02:14.030 --> 00:02:17.469
of the 13 original colonies was diverse and deeply

00:02:17.469 --> 00:02:21.009
shaped by a number of things, such as European

00:02:21.009 --> 00:02:25.050
conflicts, as we noted last time, reform movements,

00:02:25.330 --> 00:02:28.810
such as the First Great Awakening, and ideas

00:02:28.810 --> 00:02:31.969
about church and state relationships that were

00:02:31.969 --> 00:02:34.949
influenced by Age of Enlightenment thinking.

00:02:35.250 --> 00:02:38.090
Religion influenced settlement patterns, laws,

00:02:38.699 --> 00:02:42.180
education, politics, and relations with indigenous

00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:44.979
peoples. At the same time, the colonies gradually

00:02:44.979 --> 00:02:48.419
developed traditions of religious diversity that

00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:51.639
later influenced our First Amendment. Between

00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:57.740
1625 and 1775, we should note, the colonial population

00:02:57.740 --> 00:03:03.500
grew from 2 ,000 to 2 .4 million, largely displacing

00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:05.939
the region's Native Americans. The population

00:03:05.939 --> 00:03:09.020
included people subject to a system of slavery,

00:03:09.180 --> 00:03:13.919
which was legal in all of the colonies. Several

00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.180
American colonies were established primarily

00:03:16.180 --> 00:03:19.659
for religious reasons, largely to escape persecution

00:03:19.659 --> 00:03:22.800
in Europe or to establish specific religious

00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:26.300
communities. Key colonies included Massachusetts,

00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:29.500
And in particular, we're talking about Puritans

00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:32.699
and Pilgrims. Maryland, in which we're talking

00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:36.060
about Catholics originally. Pennsylvania was

00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:39.219
founded by Quakers. And Rhode Island, founded

00:03:39.219 --> 00:03:42.719
by dissidents of other colonies. And we'll get

00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.060
into that in a minute. Other religiously motivated

00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:47.460
colonies or settlements included Connecticut

00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:51.400
and New Haven, which eventually became part of

00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.039
Connecticut. We're going to start with Virginia.

00:03:55.550 --> 00:03:58.330
Jamestown in Virginia was the first. Virginia

00:03:58.330 --> 00:04:02.530
was founded in 1607 by the British, mainly for

00:04:02.530 --> 00:04:06.189
economic reasons. Think tobacco. It was absolutely

00:04:06.189 --> 00:04:09.930
a Christian colony, settled by English Protestants,

00:04:10.050 --> 00:04:12.830
and it was required at the time that the colonists

00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:16.110
tithe to the Anglican Church. And this was true

00:04:16.110 --> 00:04:19.250
for probably 100 years or more. Probably more

00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:21.129
than 100 years. More than 100 years, because

00:04:21.129 --> 00:04:25.660
it's not until the 18th century that... the later

00:04:25.660 --> 00:04:28.740
18th century, where that kind of becomes less

00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:31.660
dominant in people's thinking. Well, I don't

00:04:31.660 --> 00:04:34.259
know about tithing specifically, but I can tell

00:04:34.259 --> 00:04:37.560
you that Virginia, the colony thereof, established

00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.879
the Church of England, also known as the Anglican

00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:44.379
Church, same thing, as its established church,

00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.060
its official church. And it remained the official

00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:50.899
church of Virginia both before and after the

00:04:50.899 --> 00:04:54.720
independence of the United States until 1786

00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.759
when the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom

00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.500
disestablished what by then had become known

00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:03.240
as the Episcopal Church. After independence from

00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.839
England, we didn't want to have our church called

00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:08.120
the Church of England anymore, or Anglican, which

00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.699
means of England. So it became known as the Episcopal

00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:12.459
Church, which simply means governed by bishops.

00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:14.740
And this was Thomas Jefferson's... I was going

00:05:14.740 --> 00:05:17.839
to say, that was TJ. Yes, that was one of his

00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:24.259
signature arrangements that he celebrated. And

00:05:24.259 --> 00:05:28.810
it's on his, I wouldn't say... tomb or headstone

00:05:28.810 --> 00:05:30.769
because it's kind of an obelisk but that's one

00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:32.230
of the three things he was he wanted to be a

00:05:32.230 --> 00:05:34.490
member of that yeah yeah and president of the

00:05:34.490 --> 00:05:36.730
university of virginia and declaration of independence

00:05:36.730 --> 00:05:40.670
um anyway uh we'll get into that with when we

00:05:40.670 --> 00:05:43.949
get into the founders uh next time next time

00:05:43.949 --> 00:05:46.949
but um there a lot there was a lot of thinking

00:05:46.949 --> 00:05:51.740
among uh founders from virginia certainly about

00:05:51.740 --> 00:05:54.660
the idea that there should be great religious

00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:57.279
freedom, great freedom of conscience and all

00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.800
of that. And that reflected itself eventually

00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.079
in 1786, Virginia disestablishing the Episcopal

00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.100
Church. But it took that long. So we're talking

00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:10.680
175 years or whatever it is. And in fact, you

00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:14.819
had to hold public office. For example, you had

00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:19.199
to be a member of the... the Anglican Church,

00:06:19.259 --> 00:06:20.980
Church of England, later Episcopal Church. You

00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:24.180
had to be any kind of public office holder up

00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:26.699
until, I guess, the disestablishment of the church

00:06:26.699 --> 00:06:29.319
in 1786. So, I mean, we are going to get into

00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.420
this language about what constitutes an established

00:06:32.420 --> 00:06:36.060
church, because a lot of people see with the

00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:37.759
Establishment Clause in the First Amendment,

00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:41.139
which you... read last, beginning of last time,

00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.899
this is kind of what an established church looks

00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:46.839
like. You have to, in order to have full civil

00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:48.759
rights, you have to be part of that church. If

00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.019
you want to hold public office, you have to be

00:06:51.019 --> 00:06:53.579
part of that church. And Blake mentioned tithing.

00:06:53.740 --> 00:06:56.420
And last time we discussed the idea of tithing.

00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:58.839
It was taxation. Taxation, right. It was taxes.

00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:01.240
But that's what it would amount to. It amounted

00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.019
to tithing. And we discussed that last time,

00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:05.779
too, about, you know, would an established church

00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:07.519
tax people, and how would that all work? Well,

00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:09.480
Virginia... gives you an example of that in colonial

00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:13.060
times. But yeah, you get funded by the state.

00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:17.279
You have to be part of that church if that is

00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:21.899
the dominant state church that's being funded.

00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:26.839
And if you are not, then you're kind of like

00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:30.639
out in the cold then. So Virginia was established

00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.540
not as a religious colony, but as a... as a business

00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:37.860
enterprise. However, it did have a specific religious

00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:39.860
requirement and a specific established church,

00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:42.500
which had an influence on taxes and life and

00:07:42.500 --> 00:07:44.639
everything else there. And this is not that different

00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.439
from what's going on in England. Yes. They're

00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.199
reflecting, they're importing from England what

00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:51.860
was going on in England in a lot of ways. It's

00:07:51.860 --> 00:07:53.339
not something new and different. It's not an

00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.060
original idea, really. It's just Virginia being

00:07:55.060 --> 00:07:57.379
just like England, right? Because they were Englishmen

00:07:57.379 --> 00:08:00.500
coming over, continuing to be Englishmen in the

00:08:00.500 --> 00:08:04.139
new world. So that's Virginia. Right. Now we're

00:08:04.139 --> 00:08:06.839
going to talk about Maryland. Maryland was founded

00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:11.279
in 1634. There's some disagreement over the date.

00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.300
I think the charter was 1632, but people came

00:08:14.300 --> 00:08:18.899
over in 1635. Yeah, it was kind of founded during

00:08:18.899 --> 00:08:22.180
the period from 1632 to 1634 is what sources

00:08:22.180 --> 00:08:24.480
will tell you. But it was founded by Catholic

00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.680
pilgrims. Okay, see, these are English Catholics.

00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:30.579
who fled England because they did not want to

00:08:30.579 --> 00:08:33.379
be subjected to the Protestant Anglican Church.

00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:36.200
The established church. The established church,

00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:40.000
right, of England. They wanted to practice their

00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.299
Catholic faith, and so they left in two ships,

00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:45.820
at least the biggest initial group. The Ark and

00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:48.320
the Dove were the names of those ships, and they

00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.919
founded the colony of Maryland. And there is

00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:54.360
a famous story, which is commemorated by a plaque

00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:57.460
on St. Clement's Island in the Potomac River.

00:08:58.110 --> 00:09:02.370
basin up near St. Mary's County, where they landed

00:09:02.370 --> 00:09:06.029
and they all disembarked onto this island and

00:09:06.029 --> 00:09:09.750
fell down on their knees and had a Catholic mass.

00:09:10.110 --> 00:09:13.190
So yes, Maryland was founded as a Christian colony,

00:09:13.409 --> 00:09:17.549
a uniquely Catholic one. They were led by George

00:09:17.549 --> 00:09:20.350
Calvert. There's a county in Maryland called

00:09:20.350 --> 00:09:24.309
Calvert County. What the colony did, though,

00:09:24.409 --> 00:09:26.450
it was founded as a Catholic colony, but according

00:09:26.450 --> 00:09:29.029
to what I've read about it, it extended freedom

00:09:29.029 --> 00:09:34.009
of worship to all Trinitarian Christians. Trinitarian

00:09:34.009 --> 00:09:36.129
meaning those who believed in one Christian God

00:09:36.129 --> 00:09:39.309
who exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy

00:09:39.309 --> 00:09:43.889
Spirit. And they did that in 1649. So that's

00:09:43.889 --> 00:09:45.870
only about 15 years or so after the colony was

00:09:45.870 --> 00:09:48.450
founded, they extended that. So very quickly

00:09:48.450 --> 00:09:51.250
they were becoming more religiously tolerant.

00:09:52.090 --> 00:09:53.470
You still had to be Christian. You still had

00:09:53.470 --> 00:09:55.250
to be Trinitarian. But at least you didn't have

00:09:55.250 --> 00:09:58.850
to be only Catholic. Yes. Toleration did not

00:09:58.850 --> 00:10:01.629
extend to all religions or even all forms of

00:10:01.629 --> 00:10:05.169
Christianity. Yes. This is kind of reflecting,

00:10:05.250 --> 00:10:07.750
you know, just something to keep in mind. Over

00:10:07.750 --> 00:10:10.590
in England at the time, Catholicism is more or

00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:14.629
less illegal. You could not, I mean, when they're

00:10:14.629 --> 00:10:18.120
coming ashore and having this mass. This was

00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.360
something that was more or less forbidden in

00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.440
Britain at the time. And, you know, they were

00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:27.840
only like, you had different Catholic landed

00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.840
gentry that would have a priest come by and say

00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:36.259
mass occasionally in the family chapel. If the

00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:38.740
priest was found on there, you were subject to

00:10:38.740 --> 00:10:41.960
be arrested. Your family was subject to be arrested.

00:10:43.389 --> 00:10:45.090
It was considered treasonous, wasn't it, to be

00:10:45.090 --> 00:10:48.250
Catholic? Yes, particularly after the gunpowder

00:10:48.250 --> 00:10:51.909
plot, where Catholic renegades wanted to blow

00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:56.470
up Parliament. What year was that? I want to

00:10:56.470 --> 00:11:02.210
say that's 1605. Yeah, the gunpowder plot. Unsuccessful

00:11:02.210 --> 00:11:04.809
assassination attempt against King James I and

00:11:04.809 --> 00:11:07.549
the English Parliament. And the entire royal

00:11:07.549 --> 00:11:10.090
family. Yes, orchestrated by Robert Catesby.

00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:14.779
Catholics planned to blow up the House of Lords

00:11:14.779 --> 00:11:16.779
during the state opening of Parliament on November

00:11:16.779 --> 00:11:21.059
5th, 1605. And one of the conspirators, Guy Fawkes,

00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:23.379
was guarding barrels of gunpowder in the cellar

00:11:23.379 --> 00:11:25.740
underneath the House of Lords. And to this day

00:11:25.740 --> 00:11:27.419
in England, they have Guy Fawkes Day, where they

00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:29.980
celebrate his... Remember, remember the 5th of

00:11:29.980 --> 00:11:32.600
November. Yeah, they celebrate his arrest and

00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:36.840
pretty brutal execution. Yeah. Yes, they celebrate

00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:38.480
that. They didn't mess around. Yeah, they didn't

00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:40.139
mess around in those days. But that was the context

00:11:40.139 --> 00:11:42.539
of that, as Catholicism was considered treasonous.

00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:47.000
Yeah, I mean, it had the same connotations. Catholicism

00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:50.299
had the same connotations in Britain at the time

00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:53.159
as, say, some backward -thinking people have

00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.379
towards Islam now. It's a religion of terrorists.

00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.039
Staying in the Southern colonies, let's talk

00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.039
about the Carolinas. What we now know as North

00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.779
and South Carolina was originally one large land

00:12:05.779 --> 00:12:09.100
grant and later was separated. The province of

00:12:09.100 --> 00:12:13.220
Carolina was initially chartered in 1629, and

00:12:13.220 --> 00:12:16.899
initial settlements were established after 1651.

00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:20.740
That charter was voided in 1660 by Charles II,

00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:25.059
and a new charter was issued in 1663, making

00:12:25.059 --> 00:12:27.899
it a proprietary colony. At which point it became

00:12:27.899 --> 00:12:30.379
known as the Carolina Colony, officially. The

00:12:30.379 --> 00:12:32.980
Carolina province was divided into separate proprietary

00:12:32.980 --> 00:12:37.659
colonies north and south in 1712. before both

00:12:37.659 --> 00:12:42.259
became royal colonies in 1729. So in North Carolina,

00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:43.600
go ahead. Well, I was going to say, and that

00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.720
split had no religious content to it at all.

00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:49.899
No. What became North Carolina and what became

00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:52.480
South Carolina were culturally and economically

00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:55.139
very different from one another and often in

00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:56.519
dispute with one another. And that's why they

00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.279
were split. But there was no religious content

00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.360
to that. Both colonies, I would say, were established

00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.879
for largely economic purposes as opposed to religious.

00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:08.860
In North Carolina, which was more religiously

00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:12.000
diverse and more loosely governed than Virginia,

00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:15.740
it included Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians,

00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:20.600
and Quakers. And a note here, frontier conditions

00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:23.360
weakened centralized church control. So they're

00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.500
not having the same level of control established,

00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.740
say, like the established Anglican church in

00:13:29.740 --> 00:13:32.269
Virginia. Right. I know, by the way, in addition

00:13:32.269 --> 00:13:34.070
to business purposes, another motivation for

00:13:34.070 --> 00:13:38.149
founding the original Carolina colony was a military

00:13:38.149 --> 00:13:40.649
reason, as a buffer against invasion of the British

00:13:40.649 --> 00:13:43.049
colonies from Spanish Florida, which was, of

00:13:43.049 --> 00:13:45.009
course, to the south. So that was another consideration.

00:13:45.350 --> 00:13:48.629
But again, a non -religious one. Right. All right.

00:13:48.669 --> 00:13:51.450
South Carolina was founded for similar reasons,

00:13:51.509 --> 00:13:55.269
economic more than religious. It was officially

00:13:55.269 --> 00:13:58.669
Anglican, but economically oriented and relatively

00:13:58.669 --> 00:14:03.710
tolerant in practice. Charleston became religiously

00:14:03.710 --> 00:14:07.450
diverse and included Huguenots, Jews, Presbyterians,

00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:11.049
and Baptists. And we might want to mention what

00:14:11.049 --> 00:14:13.690
the Huguenots were. Well, they were actually

00:14:13.690 --> 00:14:19.009
a group of Calvinist French Protestants who had

00:14:19.009 --> 00:14:22.570
been given the right to practice their religion

00:14:22.570 --> 00:14:26.289
early in the 17th century under something called

00:14:26.289 --> 00:14:31.210
the Edict of Nantes. And then in 1682, Louis

00:14:31.210 --> 00:14:35.169
XIV revoked this. So if you were going to be

00:14:35.169 --> 00:14:37.230
French, you had to be Catholic, just as you had

00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:38.830
to be Protestant if you were going to be English.

00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:43.830
And this was really one of the stupider things

00:14:43.830 --> 00:14:48.110
that Louis did, most historians believe, because

00:14:48.110 --> 00:14:52.759
all of these Huguenots were very talented. For

00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:54.639
some reason, a large number of people who were

00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.399
in the cloth trade were Huguenots. And these

00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:03.600
people fled for religious purposes, and they

00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.200
ended up going to a number of places, particularly

00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.259
South Carolina, particularly Charleston. There

00:15:09.259 --> 00:15:12.919
is still a Huguenot church there, which ancestors

00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:15.679
of mine basically founded when they fled there.

00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.240
But they would basically go through England.

00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:21.279
They had a large concentration of... people in

00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.559
Spitalfields in London, and they were all weavers.

00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.820
And this kind of decimated the French cloth trade

00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:32.259
and enhanced the Dutch and English cloth trade.

00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:35.299
And all of Louis' biographers say this was a

00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:39.000
bad call on his part. It was orthodoxy for orthodoxy's

00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:40.659
sake, and it didn't really benefit the state

00:15:40.659 --> 00:15:43.299
whatsoever. We're going to round out the southern

00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:48.009
colonies with Georgia, which was a later colony

00:15:48.009 --> 00:15:52.730
founded in 1732, it began as a colony established

00:15:52.730 --> 00:15:56.590
to provide a new start to people in debt. It

00:15:56.590 --> 00:16:00.070
was the brainchild of James Oglethorpe. He favored

00:16:00.070 --> 00:16:03.889
social equality as reflected in his design of

00:16:03.889 --> 00:16:06.970
the city of Savannah. Slavery was not permitted,

00:16:07.149 --> 00:16:11.350
neither initially was alcohol. It might be better

00:16:11.350 --> 00:16:13.789
to define Georgia as a charity colony versus

00:16:13.789 --> 00:16:16.830
a penal one, even though people in debtor's prison

00:16:16.830 --> 00:16:20.269
were identified to be a source for colonists.

00:16:20.470 --> 00:16:23.909
And for those who don't know this, in England

00:16:23.909 --> 00:16:27.110
it was a crime to not repay your debts. So if

00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:28.330
you didn't repay your debts, you could be put

00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.149
in debtor's prison. And it's been pointed out

00:16:30.149 --> 00:16:31.809
that's kind of stupid because how can you ever

00:16:31.809 --> 00:16:34.250
repay your debts if you're in prison? I know.

00:16:34.409 --> 00:16:37.639
But anyway, that's a different topic. It was

00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:39.720
a crime. And so this was a way of giving these

00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.220
people a fresh start in life where they could

00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:45.879
start to earn a living again, I guess, and maybe

00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:47.840
hopefully pay their debts off someday, but at

00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:49.700
least have a fresh start in life. At least be

00:16:49.700 --> 00:16:52.899
prosperous members of society. Yeah. My reading

00:16:52.899 --> 00:16:55.039
on this very quickly, too, is that Georgia wound

00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.220
up having financial problems because it turns

00:16:57.220 --> 00:16:59.600
out that not a lot of these actual debtors actually

00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.779
came over originally. And another issue was that

00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:05.980
the... Since you have a bunch of debtors coming,

00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:07.960
they obviously don't have a lot of money. So

00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:09.799
Georgia ran into a lot of financial difficulties

00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.900
because it's people with no money are settling

00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:17.359
the colony. But at any rate, Oglethorpe did not

00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.619
found the colony for specifically religious reasons.

00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.680
But his idea of, I suppose his idea of social

00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.359
equality and giving debtors a second chance and

00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:30.000
everything was probably informed by some sort

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.380
of... sense of Christian charity or something,

00:17:32.539 --> 00:17:35.000
I'm assuming. Yes, and there were people like

00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.539
that, you know. But that wasn't a specific religious

00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:42.099
reason for founding Georgia. By the way, Georgia

00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:44.440
also was founded partly, too, as another, again,

00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.259
a military, for military reasons, as another

00:17:47.259 --> 00:17:50.539
buffer area against Spanish Florida, in case

00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:52.420
a Spanish ever invaded. And we should mention

00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:56.900
that Spanish Florida was also Christian. And

00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.869
Catholic. And Catholic, you're right. You know,

00:17:59.930 --> 00:18:02.670
I mean, if we look at just the United States,

00:18:02.730 --> 00:18:04.109
and I mean, the United States comes out of 13

00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:06.789
colonies, but there are all these other religious

00:18:06.789 --> 00:18:10.529
traditions that exist in places that are still

00:18:10.529 --> 00:18:13.230
America that were not necessarily Protestant

00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:16.369
and the people were not necessarily speaking

00:18:16.369 --> 00:18:20.369
English. And they too were part of... you know,

00:18:20.410 --> 00:18:23.210
what constitutes America these days. So Georgia,

00:18:23.349 --> 00:18:26.849
just concluding the Georgia story here, the idea

00:18:26.849 --> 00:18:29.490
of creating a colony intended to foster yeoman

00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:31.990
farming on an equal basis was the objective.

00:18:32.170 --> 00:18:34.710
One thing to keep in mind with the southern colonies,

00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:38.289
not everybody is Episcopalian, and the Episcopalian

00:18:38.289 --> 00:18:43.410
church doesn't have, with the exception of, say,

00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:46.089
Virginia, doesn't have the same control that

00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:49.039
it would have, say, over in England. But it was

00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:55.279
the dominant church in the South, you know, very

00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.940
much a hierarchical organization that fostered,

00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:05.440
you know, you had bishops and all sorts of organization

00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:09.779
that was focused on an order that was not unlike

00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:14.140
what you had over in Britain. But this is not

00:19:14.140 --> 00:19:16.660
the case that we will find in other colonies

00:19:16.660 --> 00:19:19.920
as well. Right. Essentially what they did was

00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.619
they were Church of England back in England.

00:19:22.700 --> 00:19:25.099
They came over to the colonies. They remained

00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:27.099
Church of England. It wasn't called the Episcopal

00:19:27.099 --> 00:19:28.940
Church yet. They remained Church of England.

00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:30.700
You could call it Anglican if you wanted to.

00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:33.140
But they just brought over what they already

00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.599
had and kept doing it when they came to the colonies.

00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:40.059
This was the rule book. This was the plan. So

00:19:40.059 --> 00:19:42.609
they stuck to it. the church where they were

00:19:42.609 --> 00:19:43.930
from, and it was a church where they were going,

00:19:44.009 --> 00:19:47.589
and that was it. Yes. They were trying to do

00:19:47.589 --> 00:19:49.990
a continuity as opposed to religious freedom

00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:51.190
is what they were looking for. Because they were

00:19:51.190 --> 00:19:54.309
trying to do business in the New World, not change

00:19:54.309 --> 00:20:09.799
religion in any way. Let's move on to what are

00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.480
called the Middle Colonies, from New York all

00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.380
the way down to Delaware. The New York Colony

00:20:15.380 --> 00:20:20.619
was officially founded in 1664, although it was

00:20:20.619 --> 00:20:25.839
earlier settled by the Dutch as part of New Netherland.

00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.000
That was in 1624, the Dutch. I was going to say,

00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:31.019
it was probably a good bit earlier, yeah. Yeah,

00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:34.259
so 40 years before. What happened was the British

00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:36.980
fought the Second Anglo -Dutch War against the

00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:40.279
Netherlands. And as part of that war, they took

00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.339
control of New Netherland from the Dutch, and

00:20:43.339 --> 00:20:46.480
it became New York under British control. It

00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.059
was religiously diverse from the beginning due

00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:53.859
to its Dutch roots and commercial priorities.

00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.740
It included Dutch Reformed Christians, Anglicans,

00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.980
Lutherans, Jews, and others. After the English

00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:05.119
takeover in 1664, the colony remained very...

00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:09.799
The Dutch Reformed Church arose in the Netherlands,

00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:12.980
of course, because the Netherlands was a Spanish

00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:17.799
possession in the 1500s, and King Charles V of

00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.039
Spain had instituted the Inquisition, and the

00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.900
Inquisition included the Netherlands. And so

00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:29.200
seeking religious freedom from Catholicism, Protestants

00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.099
had formed the... formed what became the Dutch

00:21:33.099 --> 00:21:36.259
Reformed Church in the latter part of the 1500s.

00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.579
They were a Calvinist denomination. They believed

00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:44.839
in the predestination of souls, meaning that

00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.940
God had already elected or chosen those who would

00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:51.519
be saved. That kind of an argument. They did

00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.700
have a group called the Armenians, also called

00:21:55.700 --> 00:21:59.609
the Remonstrants, who... wanted to have a looser

00:21:59.609 --> 00:22:02.230
interpretation of predestination, that people

00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:07.250
had some agency, some limited control over their

00:22:07.250 --> 00:22:10.670
own salvation, but that was rejected later by

00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:14.769
the Synod of Dort, which occurred from 1618 to

00:22:14.769 --> 00:22:18.150
1619. That produced the Canons of Dort, which

00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:20.789
condemned the idea that people had any agency

00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:24.710
over their ultimate salvation, and returned to

00:22:24.710 --> 00:22:26.210
the more strict interpretation. So that's who

00:22:26.210 --> 00:22:28.829
the Dutch Reformed were. If we look at kind of

00:22:28.829 --> 00:22:31.990
the makeup that Blake has mentioned here, not

00:22:31.990 --> 00:22:34.150
unlike what we're seeing with the southern colonies,

00:22:34.390 --> 00:22:39.170
this is essentially what was going on over in

00:22:39.170 --> 00:22:41.609
the Netherlands at the time. You had a very pluralistic

00:22:41.609 --> 00:22:47.210
attitude towards religions. There was a large

00:22:47.210 --> 00:22:51.670
concentration of Jews who had settled in the

00:22:51.670 --> 00:22:54.589
Netherlands after they'd been kicked out of Spain

00:22:54.589 --> 00:22:58.640
by Queen Isabel. The philosopher Spinoza would

00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.359
be part of that group that was in the Netherlands.

00:23:02.059 --> 00:23:04.900
So the fact that we're seeing Dutch Reformed,

00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:09.019
we're seeing Anglicans, Lutherans, Jews in New

00:23:09.019 --> 00:23:11.880
York, that's not all that surprising given who

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.640
founds the colony. Well, much as the Church of

00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.059
England was the official church of England, the

00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:19.960
Dutch Reformed Church was the official church

00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:23.740
of the Netherlands until 1798 when it was disestablished

00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:27.180
as that. like you're saying, the Dutch came over,

00:23:27.259 --> 00:23:29.240
founded New Netherland, brought the official

00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.740
religion with them, practiced it. That was their

00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:35.559
religion there. But even under Dutch control,

00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.680
again, as you're saying, New Netherland at the

00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.400
time had a reputation as being very religiously

00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.900
tolerant. And it continued to be so when the

00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:46.599
British took over and it became New York, it

00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:49.000
continued to be a religiously tolerant area with

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.400
a diversity of... And I think this was the first

00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:58.819
place that had a dwelling Jewish community. Yeah,

00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:02.500
I think so. Because, I mean, there was a thriving

00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:06.779
Jewish community in Amsterdam at the time. Again,

00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:10.519
these people who had refugied from Spain, the

00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:15.779
Sephardic Jews, had settled there. Moving on

00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:19.920
to New Jersey, which was also founded in 1664,

00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:23.940
religious diversity was encouraged in order to

00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:27.779
attract settlers. Settlers included Quakers,

00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:31.619
Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed communities, and

00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:35.079
Anglicans. And no single church dominated the

00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:37.859
colony. However, the school that was established

00:24:37.859 --> 00:24:41.779
there, Princeton, that was originally Presbyterian.

00:24:43.549 --> 00:24:46.289
What became New Jersey was originally settled

00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:49.869
by the Swedes, the Swedish Empire, in 1638 as

00:24:49.869 --> 00:24:53.549
New Sweden. Then it became a part of the Dutch

00:24:53.549 --> 00:24:59.329
colony of New Netherland in 1655. And then in

00:24:59.329 --> 00:25:01.990
1664, it became the provinces of East Jersey

00:25:01.990 --> 00:25:07.450
and West Jersey, two separate colonies, after

00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:09.809
the British seized the area from the Dutch during,

00:25:09.890 --> 00:25:13.930
again, the Second Anglo -Dutch War. Both of the

00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:15.710
jerseys, as they were called at the time, were

00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:20.049
founded as commercial enterprises. And in 1665,

00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:23.789
the proprietors of both of the jerseys issued

00:25:23.789 --> 00:25:27.369
the concession and agreement. And that promised

00:25:27.369 --> 00:25:30.730
religious freedom to all settlers in what were

00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:33.809
then the two New Jersey colonies. And so the

00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.609
two colonies became a haven for Quakers, Puritans,

00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:40.950
and other dissenters who faced persecution elsewhere.

00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:44.960
And then for strictly secular reasons, East Jersey

00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:47.299
and West Jersey emerged to form New Jersey in

00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:51.160
1702. So not really, we do have a religious presence,

00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.059
but we don't necessarily have a religious motivation

00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:58.299
in this instance. Right. I mean, I assume since,

00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:03.000
well, since... New Jersey was part of New Netherland

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.740
until 1655. Then I assume the Dutch Reformed

00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:07.359
came over and that was the official church and

00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.980
all of that. But again, why would it, it wouldn't

00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:10.380
be different from up in New York because they

00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:12.880
were the same colony, both New Netherland at

00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.740
the time. So you had that tradition there. And

00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:20.259
then under British control, they actually, you

00:26:20.259 --> 00:26:23.640
know, overtly made the concession and agreement

00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.240
statement promising religious freedom to all

00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:30.720
settlers. Moving on to Pennsylvania, which was

00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:36.319
founded in 1681 by William Penn as a refuge for

00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.960
Quakers. The Quakers emphasized equality, pacifism,

00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:45.779
simplicity, and religious tolerance. And Pennsylvania

00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:48.599
became one of the most religiously open colonies.

00:26:48.700 --> 00:26:51.339
It's actually an extremely interesting story.

00:26:51.500 --> 00:26:57.710
It was viewed as a holy experiment. Yes, a holy

00:26:57.710 --> 00:27:01.349
experiment to bring in religious diversity from

00:27:01.349 --> 00:27:09.049
all over Europe. And it incorporated a lot of

00:27:09.049 --> 00:27:12.430
people who were being persecuted as religious

00:27:12.430 --> 00:27:17.130
minorities in not just England, but also Germany.

00:27:17.710 --> 00:27:20.009
We have this expression, Pennsylvania Dutch.

00:27:20.230 --> 00:27:23.750
That's actually meaning it's Deutsch. Deutsch.

00:27:23.789 --> 00:27:27.150
Meaning German. Mispronounced as German. I never

00:27:27.150 --> 00:27:30.690
knew that. Yeah. They're not Dutch at all. They're

00:27:30.690 --> 00:27:35.750
Deutsch. I'm glad you said that. Yes. My family

00:27:35.750 --> 00:27:38.730
is Pennsylvania Dutch on my maternal grandfather's

00:27:38.730 --> 00:27:41.849
side. They're from Pennsylvania. So you have

00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:45.890
people from places like Moravia, which is in

00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:48.700
what is now the Czech Republic. It's Czechia.

00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:51.400
I've got to catch myself there because it keeps

00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.980
changing its name. But Moravia was a source for

00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:58.619
colonies. We're getting colonies from different

00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:02.319
parts of Europe than just England and France.

00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:07.579
And even the Netherlands here. And it's sort

00:28:07.579 --> 00:28:10.119
of like the floodgates open up and Pennsylvania

00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:14.420
becomes this huge, tolerant experiment in religious

00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:18.799
freedom and liberty there. So you do have, in

00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.920
the case of Pennsylvania, kind of the myth made

00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:27.079
flesh here in the sense that, yes, people established

00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:31.079
the colony for religious regions and it promoted

00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:34.319
religious freedom and religious diversity. And

00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.180
you have Mennonites, Lutherans, Catholics, and

00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:40.359
Jews. Yes. It was a Jewish population in Philly.

00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.079
Yes. And the Amish, of course, are up in Pennsylvania.

00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.359
The Amish, yes. Pennsylvania. The big problem,

00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:47.279
though, when people have looked at the history

00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.599
of the colony, and I'm going to say the best

00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:53.720
book I've ever read on Pennsylvania's establishment

00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:56.279
is a book called From Meeting House to Counting

00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.579
House. The Quakers, once they settled there,

00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:02.769
Pennsylvania. became a very important colony,

00:29:02.829 --> 00:29:05.750
and Philadelphia became the leading city. Not

00:29:05.750 --> 00:29:08.509
New York, not Boston, not Charleston, but Philadelphia

00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:12.789
was the leading city in the New World amongst

00:29:12.789 --> 00:29:17.069
the English colonies. And the Quakers were getting

00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:21.549
rich off of this. Diversity actually pays, contrary

00:29:21.549 --> 00:29:26.910
to what some people would argue. And they soon

00:29:26.910 --> 00:29:30.039
found themselves in a kind of conundrum. which

00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:32.839
led some of them to basically embrace a purely

00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:37.359
commercial identity, the counting house, and

00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:39.500
then others who would kind of retreat from that

00:29:39.500 --> 00:29:43.960
world, meeting house, particularly when it came

00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:47.940
to the need to establish a militia to defend

00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:51.220
the colony during various times of conflict.

00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.539
We should probably define what Quakerism. meant,

00:29:55.579 --> 00:29:58.220
what it meant to be a Quaker? Well, I mean, in

00:29:58.220 --> 00:30:03.359
terms of their, they were very, the Quakers are

00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:06.859
very strong supporters of equality, not only

00:30:06.859 --> 00:30:10.299
amongst the sexes, but also amongst races as

00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:12.759
well. They were the first people to favor abolition.

00:30:14.009 --> 00:30:16.670
Quaker services can be maddening to people who've

00:30:16.670 --> 00:30:19.430
never been to them. Weren't they like meditative?

00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:23.690
Well, it's not just meditative. It's like someone,

00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:27.230
if they are moved by the Spirit to speak, and

00:30:27.230 --> 00:30:30.490
it doesn't matter who you are. I mean, we were

00:30:30.490 --> 00:30:32.789
talking about like the Episcopal Church with

00:30:32.789 --> 00:30:36.890
its hierarchy. There is absolutely no hierarchy.

00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:42.019
One can be a leader. without being moved by the

00:30:42.019 --> 00:30:46.759
Holy Spirit to speak there. And to quake. And

00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:49.779
to quake. Which would be what, speaking in tongues?

00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:52.039
No, no, no, they didn't do that. The Quakers

00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:55.160
believe in the inner life, which is the belief

00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.359
that God speaks directly to every individual,

00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.400
making everyone capable of experiencing the divine.

00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:05.490
They believe in spiritual equality. Because all

00:31:05.490 --> 00:31:07.849
people carry the divine spark, Quakers historically

00:31:07.849 --> 00:31:11.130
have championed radical equality, including the

00:31:11.130 --> 00:31:13.950
spiritual leadership of women and opposition

00:31:13.950 --> 00:31:18.549
to racism. They believe that God's truth is continually

00:31:18.549 --> 00:31:21.849
revealed and that divine communication is not

00:31:21.849 --> 00:31:24.970
limited to Scripture. As you were saying, so

00:31:24.970 --> 00:31:28.630
they sit in silent meetings. Yes. And they wait

00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:30.710
for the Spirit to move them. And whoever is moved

00:31:30.710 --> 00:31:32.950
by the Spirit can stand and share a message.

00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.279
If no one ever speaks, the entire hour they spend

00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:39.299
together could be silent. Yes, I have read that,

00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:42.059
yeah. And they seek unity through shared listening

00:31:42.059 --> 00:31:44.799
and waiting to discern what they believe is God's

00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:47.099
will rather than in doing things like voting

00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:49.539
on church matters and things like that. But just

00:31:49.539 --> 00:31:51.880
think about this in comparison to what we're

00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:55.400
looking at in the other colonies, just why Quakerism

00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.859
was kind of one of these. prescribed beliefs

00:31:59.859 --> 00:32:02.440
in one of the colonies or some of the colonies

00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:09.180
that you have no hierarchy. There is text other

00:32:09.180 --> 00:32:12.500
than the Bible because God is speaking through

00:32:12.500 --> 00:32:14.240
you, not just through the Bible. The Bible is

00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.480
not the be -all and end -all. It's not about

00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:18.579
interpreting the Bible. It's interpreting what

00:32:18.579 --> 00:32:22.500
God's will is at that particular moment. So you

00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:26.210
can see why this particular group would not necessarily

00:32:26.210 --> 00:32:29.049
be accepted in some of the other colonies, and

00:32:29.049 --> 00:32:32.450
there's a total lack of hierarchy. So like some

00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:36.750
woman with no education, maybe had read the Bible,

00:32:36.930 --> 00:32:40.809
could go and cross swords with a bishop in Virginia.

00:32:40.930 --> 00:32:42.190
Which was unheard of in those days. Which would

00:32:42.190 --> 00:32:45.349
be unheard of on so many different levels. Right.

00:32:45.710 --> 00:32:48.670
The core belief in that, in the inner light,

00:32:49.069 --> 00:32:50.769
The presence of God existing in every person

00:32:50.769 --> 00:32:53.450
means, the logical outcome of that is that Quakers

00:32:53.450 --> 00:32:56.750
believe that no priests or rituals are needed

00:32:56.750 --> 00:32:58.690
to connect with the divine. So that pretty much

00:32:58.690 --> 00:33:01.049
throws out all church hierarchy and everybody

00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:02.950
else's religious practices. Yeah. They're all

00:33:02.950 --> 00:33:04.869
superfluous because God speaks to you directly.

00:33:05.109 --> 00:33:07.009
For them, yes. For them, yeah. They're not going

00:33:07.009 --> 00:33:12.130
to, they will not go in and say, you have a hierarchy

00:33:12.130 --> 00:33:15.269
so you're wrong. They would take the position

00:33:15.269 --> 00:33:18.319
we don't believe in that. You are free to believe

00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:22.940
that if you wish. They have an historic commitment

00:33:22.940 --> 00:33:25.819
to nonviolence. Yes. Many of them will refuse

00:33:25.819 --> 00:33:29.519
military service. They have an emphasis on working

00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.400
for social justice and conflict resolution. They

00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:36.440
strive to live unadorned lives. They try to maintain

00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:39.880
rigorous honesty in all dealings. And because

00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:41.700
of that, they refuse to swear oaths in court

00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:43.579
because it implies one might be dishonest at

00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:47.559
other times. Yes. They believe in treating all

00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:49.539
people with equal respect and in actively working

00:33:49.539 --> 00:33:53.259
to support those who are marginalized. There

00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:55.640
are some branches that are different from others.

00:33:55.720 --> 00:34:00.539
Some are evangelical. Others are more universalist,

00:34:00.579 --> 00:34:02.599
welcoming members who find truth in various faith

00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.079
traditions or secular philosophies. So there's

00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:08.420
different branches of Quakerism as well. And

00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:12.780
they're officially known as the... Religious

00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:17.000
Society of Friends. Yes. Right. Yes. But... They

00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:19.860
were a new thing. They originated in 17th century

00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:21.300
England. So at the time of the foundation of

00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:25.039
these colonies, they were a new branch of Christian

00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:26.980
belief. Yes. If that's the right way to put it.

00:34:27.659 --> 00:34:31.199
But they were – but because of so many tenets

00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:35.119
of their faith ran counter to what would be considered

00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:37.920
good orderly – you know, they're not Presbyterians.

00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:42.219
They're not Episcopalians. And this whole military

00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:46.900
thing was – Was a problem at times. It presented

00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:49.079
a problem, say, with Franklin. And we can get

00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.480
into that later on when we talk about the Founding

00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:55.360
Fathers. But there were issues with that like

00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.500
– What exactly do you do to defend your colony

00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:01.019
if there's a war going on? Well, that had to

00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:04.400
be overcome to get them to serve in the revolutionary

00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:09.139
war. Well, not everybody. And some didn't, I'm

00:35:09.139 --> 00:35:11.699
sure. Some didn't. Some didn't. Because if you've

00:35:11.699 --> 00:35:14.199
ever seen the film or read the book Friendly

00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:16.739
Persuasion, you have family that has a civil

00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:18.960
war going on around them. And they're totally

00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.389
like, we're not going to. take part in this,

00:35:22.610 --> 00:35:25.349
but hey, we're also fighting slavery. How do

00:35:25.349 --> 00:35:27.150
you deal with this? There's all sorts of moral

00:35:27.150 --> 00:35:31.889
dilemmas to this approach that come along. Passivism

00:35:31.889 --> 00:35:34.610
leads to many moral dilemmas. Yes, it does. And

00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:38.809
Richard Nixon was a quicker. Really? Yes. Was

00:35:38.809 --> 00:35:40.710
he not? Yes, he was. He was raised as one, anyway.

00:35:40.889 --> 00:35:43.210
Yeah, that was his... He was raised as one, and

00:35:43.210 --> 00:35:46.170
he actually went to... Whittier College was a

00:35:46.170 --> 00:35:48.750
Quaker institution. The Quakers actually went

00:35:48.750 --> 00:35:51.210
west. In California. In established communities

00:35:51.210 --> 00:35:54.030
out there. So Whittier was... He did not practice

00:35:54.030 --> 00:35:58.949
the pacifism part. No. No, he did not, because

00:35:58.949 --> 00:36:01.250
Richard Nixon spent his entire lifetime trying

00:36:01.250 --> 00:36:07.650
to flee from his upbringing. Moving on to Delaware,

00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:10.230
which is, we'll round out the middle colonies

00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:12.409
with Delaware. Delaware has a complicated history.

00:36:12.670 --> 00:36:15.690
A little bit complicated. Became a British colony

00:36:15.690 --> 00:36:19.309
in 1664, but it was earlier settled by the Dutch.

00:36:19.630 --> 00:36:22.130
Even earlier by the Swedes. Yes. Again, the Swedes

00:36:22.130 --> 00:36:24.769
were there. The Swedes first settled in Delaware

00:36:24.769 --> 00:36:28.190
in 1631. That settlement was quickly abandoned.

00:36:28.750 --> 00:36:31.070
But then they came back, the Swedes came back

00:36:31.070 --> 00:36:35.170
in 1638 and resettled it, and it became New Sweden.

00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:39.420
in 1638. Then the Dutch took control in 1655,

00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:41.719
just like they had done further north in New

00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:45.340
Jersey. Then the British again, again the Second

00:36:45.340 --> 00:36:48.940
Anglo -Dutch War, took over Delaware in 1664

00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:51.719
from the Dutch. And then here's where it gets

00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.679
complicated and confusing. They administered

00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.900
it, the British did, as part of New York until

00:36:56.900 --> 00:37:01.900
Pennsylvania annexed it in 1682. Then Delaware

00:37:01.900 --> 00:37:07.059
was part of Pennsylvania. But in 1704, it received

00:37:07.059 --> 00:37:09.840
its own representative assembly. But it continued

00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:11.980
to share a governor with Pennsylvania in the

00:37:11.980 --> 00:37:15.760
colonial times until 1776. And when the United

00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.099
States declared independence, right, about simultaneously

00:37:18.099 --> 00:37:20.599
with that, more or less, it finally fully broke

00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:22.860
away from Pennsylvania as the state of Delaware

00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:25.659
with its, obviously, its own government, its

00:37:25.659 --> 00:37:30.940
own governor. Do you know who the royal governor

00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:35.369
was in 1776? I do not. Franklin's illegitimate

00:37:35.369 --> 00:37:38.110
son who they grew to loathe each other. He was

00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:40.170
actually a loyalist. Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin

00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:42.389
Franklin. There was even, and then we talked

00:37:42.389 --> 00:37:43.909
about Maryland earlier. There were some disputes

00:37:43.909 --> 00:37:46.429
over Maryland saying it should own Delaware.

00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:48.949
Delaware really didn't want to be owned by Maryland.

00:37:49.110 --> 00:37:51.329
But then Pennsylvania, and the thing about it

00:37:51.329 --> 00:37:53.570
is too, the Delaware and Pennsylvania, not for,

00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:56.750
I don't know if religious reasons figured into

00:37:56.750 --> 00:38:00.159
this at all. or how much they did, but Delaware

00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:01.920
and Pennsylvania, neither one of them really

00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.400
wanted to be combined as one colony. They just

00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.780
were because of whatever. It was more of an administrative

00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:09.239
thing. It was an administrative issue. They were

00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:12.179
not really terribly... They were kind of separate

00:38:12.179 --> 00:38:15.079
societies, really, from one another. But I don't

00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.059
know of any necessarily religious component to

00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:20.659
that. It was religiously mixed with Swedish Lutherans,

00:38:20.659 --> 00:38:23.719
Dutch Reformed settlers, Anglicans, and Quakers.

00:38:24.019 --> 00:38:26.139
It was... Predominantly settled by Quakers in

00:38:26.139 --> 00:38:27.820
the north, but then that's close to Pennsylvania.

00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:30.460
That makes sense. So there's bleeding. Right.

00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.880
And by English, mostly English from Maryland,

00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:36.780
and they're African slaves in the south of Delaware.

00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.219
And another thing to throw in the mix here is

00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:41.139
that in the late 18th century, and we're going

00:38:41.139 --> 00:38:43.860
to get into the Second Great Awakening in a future

00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:46.300
episode, but in the late 18th century, near the

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:50.239
beginning of the... Second Great Awakening, Methodist,

00:38:50.260 --> 00:38:52.420
itinerant Methodist preachers were in southern

00:38:52.420 --> 00:38:54.519
Delaware, and they gained a foothold there, and

00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:59.519
they got converts among both whites and among

00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.420
African slaves in southern Delaware. So there's

00:39:02.420 --> 00:39:05.360
a Methodist presence there at that point, but

00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:06.639
that's off in the future. But where we are in

00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:08.599
the 17th century, there are no Methodists yet.

00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:09.760
There are no Methodists yet. That's not until

00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:12.360
the late 18th century, like the 1790s when that

00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:13.480
happened. But I'm just throwing that in the mix

00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:14.820
since we're talking about religious foundations.

00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:19.340
Yeah, there actually was a A noteworthy Methodist

00:39:19.340 --> 00:39:37.500
foothold there eventually. Moving on to the New

00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:40.219
England colonies. I saved these for last because

00:39:40.219 --> 00:39:44.099
this is where the religious influence for the

00:39:44.099 --> 00:39:47.079
founding of many of these colonies gets very...

00:39:47.610 --> 00:39:50.989
intricate and complicated. Just like Calvinism

00:39:50.989 --> 00:39:54.510
itself. All right, so the very first one was

00:39:54.510 --> 00:39:57.670
the Plymouth Colony in Massachusetts, founded

00:39:57.670 --> 00:40:03.750
in 1620 by the Pilgrims, a separatist group distinct

00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:08.130
from the Puritans, which later founded the Massachusetts

00:40:08.130 --> 00:40:13.530
Bay Colony in the 1629 -1630 time frame. But

00:40:13.530 --> 00:40:18.079
Plymouth Colony, that's from which we we understand

00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:22.940
the Thanksgiving story. The pilgrims believed

00:40:22.940 --> 00:40:25.460
that the Church of England was beyond reform

00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:29.239
and wanted complete separation. So they left.

00:40:29.380 --> 00:40:34.519
These pilgrims were originally English. They

00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:38.739
had moved to Amsterdam in Holland, right? Still

00:40:38.739 --> 00:40:42.380
the sink of depravity. To get away from the Church

00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:44.199
of England. What do you mean by that? The Sink

00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.719
of Depravity, that means just they found the

00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:49.699
society, like, depraved in the sense that it

00:40:49.699 --> 00:40:52.440
was... The Puritans found the society in Amsterdam

00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.760
to be depraved. Yes. Okay, that's what I'm trying

00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:56.159
to make clear. Yes. Before you're talking about

00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.880
that. And, you know, they are finding depravity

00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:01.519
wherever they look. Yeah, okay. So then they

00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:05.280
left Holland, founded the colony, the Plymouth

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:09.409
Colony, 1620. The colony emphasized covenant

00:41:09.409 --> 00:41:12.409
theology and tightly knit religious community

00:41:12.409 --> 00:41:17.110
life. And so it's worth kind of just, the reason

00:41:17.110 --> 00:41:19.530
I made that comment about sync of depravity here.

00:41:19.869 --> 00:41:23.710
Okay, we are not looking in this instance for

00:41:23.710 --> 00:41:29.889
toleration. We are looking for the ability. they

00:41:29.889 --> 00:41:32.630
felt themselves discriminated against. They felt

00:41:32.630 --> 00:41:35.769
their way of life was a higher standard for living

00:41:35.769 --> 00:41:39.489
close to God here, and they wished to impose

00:41:39.489 --> 00:41:42.429
these standards on other people. Right. So let's

00:41:42.429 --> 00:41:44.789
come back to that, and let's clarify where this

00:41:44.789 --> 00:41:46.489
comes from then, just to make sure that everybody's

00:41:46.489 --> 00:41:51.909
with us here. So the Puritans in England, of

00:41:51.909 --> 00:41:54.789
which the Pilgrims were a subset, the Puritans

00:41:54.789 --> 00:41:57.590
in England thought that pretty much everything

00:41:57.590 --> 00:42:00.329
that had gone on in Christianity since, what,

00:42:00.369 --> 00:42:02.550
the first century? Fourth century. I'm sorry,

00:42:02.630 --> 00:42:04.489
the fourth century AD? Yeah. Everything that

00:42:04.489 --> 00:42:07.090
had gone on since the fourth century AD had been

00:42:07.090 --> 00:42:09.690
diminishment of Christianity. Yes. Corrupting.

00:42:10.090 --> 00:42:12.130
They were against the Catholic Church. They didn't

00:42:12.130 --> 00:42:14.469
like the gold. They didn't like all the things

00:42:14.469 --> 00:42:15.929
that the Catholic Church had done. They didn't

00:42:15.929 --> 00:42:17.969
like all the rituals. The rituals and the hierarchy.

00:42:18.329 --> 00:42:20.789
The Pope. They thought they were graven images.

00:42:21.090 --> 00:42:22.289
They thought, et cetera, et cetera. They were

00:42:22.289 --> 00:42:24.650
against all those things, very much so. That

00:42:24.650 --> 00:42:26.489
was what the Puritans thought. Altars, candles,

00:42:26.690 --> 00:42:29.309
stained glass. They hated all of it. They hated

00:42:29.309 --> 00:42:30.869
all of it. Right. They thought that it was a

00:42:30.869 --> 00:42:32.550
diminishment of Christianity and a corruption

00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:35.900
of it. And idolatry. Idolatry, too. So that's

00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:38.059
their frame of reference. That's what they were

00:42:38.059 --> 00:42:42.260
against in England. Yes. Right? The pilgrims,

00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:45.019
so some of the Puritans thought they could stay

00:42:45.019 --> 00:42:48.860
in England and either fix the church, and they

00:42:48.860 --> 00:42:51.199
thought that the Church of England was too reflective

00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:53.559
of the Catholic influence, I suppose, right?

00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:55.599
Because the Church of England had broken away

00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:58.519
by this time from Catholicism. With Henry VIII,

00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:00.579
back in the previous century. But I guess...

00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:02.760
I guess the Church of England, the high church,

00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:05.860
was very Catholic -looking, Catholic -lite, as

00:43:05.860 --> 00:43:07.739
far as they were concerned. It was Anglo -Catholic.

00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:09.739
Therefore, just as corrupt would be their viewpoint.

00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:14.119
Well, it's evolving. Yeah. The Anglican Church

00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:17.460
is evolving from the time Henry VIII breaks it

00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:21.179
away. He is insisting he's right and the Pope

00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:24.099
is wrong. He is the correct Catholic. Then you

00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:27.210
get Edward VI, who comes in with... all of these

00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:30.670
hardline Calvinist thinkings, and there is an

00:43:30.670 --> 00:43:35.110
actual full -on break where there's a prayer

00:43:35.110 --> 00:43:38.690
book, priests can get married, all sorts of things

00:43:38.690 --> 00:43:41.469
are going on there that are inconsistent with

00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:44.650
traditional Catholic dogma. Then there's kind

00:43:44.650 --> 00:43:47.849
of a settlement under Queen Elizabeth I, which

00:43:47.849 --> 00:43:52.400
kind of allows this... which is still evolving,

00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.519
which is still subject to the head of the church,

00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:57.320
which is the monarch. The head of the Church

00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:01.320
of England. Yes. And so when we're at the 17th

00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:05.340
century, Charles I wants to standardize religious

00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:08.260
practices throughout the entire realm, to include

00:44:08.260 --> 00:44:10.360
the Presbyterians, which gets him into trouble

00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:13.800
with Scotland. And he wants to introduce all

00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:18.690
of these... smells and bells, all of these rituals,

00:44:19.150 --> 00:44:22.329
all of these things which Puritans are going

00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:24.889
to regard as idolatrous, which he's disregarding

00:44:24.889 --> 00:44:28.889
as pleasant to look at and able to bring you

00:44:28.889 --> 00:44:31.630
to God that way. Quite similar to the Catholicism

00:44:31.630 --> 00:44:33.769
that so offended Puritans. Yes. Even though it

00:44:33.769 --> 00:44:35.829
wasn't Catholic anymore, it was quite similar

00:44:35.829 --> 00:44:37.809
in a lot of ways, in ways that Puritans did not

00:44:37.809 --> 00:44:41.400
approve of. And Puritans kind of saw... Catholicism

00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:44.880
as the backdoor to absolutism. So there's a lot

00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.440
of other things that are caught up with this,

00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:49.559
like the role of parliament and the ability to

00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:52.900
have representation to deal with the monarch,

00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:58.699
to kind of avoid a kind of absolutist government

00:44:58.699 --> 00:45:02.369
like what you saw on the continent with... things

00:45:02.369 --> 00:45:07.090
like inquisitions and punishments to people who

00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:09.570
dissent. So that's why the Puritans were against

00:45:09.570 --> 00:45:14.949
how the Church of England was headed in the 1600s

00:45:14.949 --> 00:45:17.610
under Charles. Well, in the 1620s and 1630s.

00:45:17.610 --> 00:45:19.690
Right. That's why they were opposed to that.

00:45:19.849 --> 00:45:21.750
Now, there were Puritans who thought they could

00:45:21.750 --> 00:45:25.010
stay in England. and fix the church. And they

00:45:25.010 --> 00:45:27.070
did, and they cut off Charles' head eventually.

00:45:27.409 --> 00:45:30.969
In the English Civil War, yes. But they thought

00:45:30.969 --> 00:45:34.530
they could do that. Yes. The pilgrims were a

00:45:34.530 --> 00:45:37.489
subset of the Puritans who decided that the Church

00:45:37.489 --> 00:45:39.789
of England was so corrupt, it was beyond hope.

00:45:40.030 --> 00:45:41.710
Nothing could be done about it. We need to form

00:45:41.710 --> 00:45:43.210
our own... And to continue to live in England

00:45:43.210 --> 00:45:45.989
was impossible for them because of the direction

00:45:45.989 --> 00:45:47.989
the church was going in terms of Charles trying

00:45:47.989 --> 00:45:50.369
to force everybody to follow. And even James.

00:45:50.670 --> 00:45:53.440
And James. So... they decided that the only hope

00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.019
was to leave. Yeah. And hence we wind up with

00:45:56.019 --> 00:45:59.360
the American myth. You know, of the pilgrims

00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:00.940
were these people who just wanted religious freedom.

00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:02.559
Exactly. And they wanted to go somewhere they

00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.420
could have religious freedom. Exactly. If you

00:46:04.420 --> 00:46:06.280
talk to English people, you'll get a very different

00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.380
perspective on it, which is that the pilgrims

00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:10.599
were a bunch of tiresome scolds who went around

00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:11.980
telling everybody how to live their lives all

00:46:11.980 --> 00:46:14.199
the time. And the English people, a lot of them,

00:46:14.219 --> 00:46:16.000
were more than happy to see them leave. You know,

00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:17.659
there's this new place you go to over in North

00:46:17.659 --> 00:46:18.980
America. Why don't you go over there? Go over

00:46:18.980 --> 00:46:20.280
there. And you can all tell each other what to

00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.599
do and leave us alone. And practice your intolerance

00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:25.519
over there. Yes. Well, and in fact, I was going

00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:27.260
to say, you're kind of taking... the words out

00:46:27.260 --> 00:46:29.539
of my mouth, Blake, is that, you know, was the

00:46:29.539 --> 00:46:30.920
question really they wanted religious freedom?

00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:33.480
Not for everybody. No, they wanted religious

00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:35.579
tyranny. They wanted religious freedom for themselves

00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:38.480
so that they could go over and oppress, be the

00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.239
ones who were oppressing people who disagreed

00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:41.300
with them. They didn't want to be the ones who

00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:43.659
were being oppressed. They wanted to be the oppressors.

00:46:43.780 --> 00:46:47.019
So the American myth tells only a fraction of

00:46:47.019 --> 00:46:49.219
the story. It's much more complicated than that.

00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:52.099
Well, and that plays out even further in the

00:46:52.099 --> 00:46:56.539
colonies. Yes. So the Pilgrims come to Plymouth

00:46:56.539 --> 00:46:58.360
Colony in 1620. The Pilgrims established the

00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:01.960
Plymouth Colony in 1620, from which grows the

00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:05.400
Thanksgiving tradition that we understand. And

00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:07.900
they were helped by the Native Americans quite

00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:11.440
a bit and helped them survive. Now, the Massachusetts

00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:17.280
Bay Colony was founded in 1629, 1630 by another

00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:21.409
group of English. Puritans seeking to build a

00:47:21.409 --> 00:47:24.969
godly society, not primarily for religious freedom

00:47:24.969 --> 00:47:27.650
in the modern sense. These Puritans wanted to

00:47:27.650 --> 00:47:29.630
reform the Church of England, which they believed

00:47:29.630 --> 00:47:32.429
remained too Catholic in practice. And was headed

00:47:32.429 --> 00:47:34.869
that way. And was headed that way. Dissenters

00:47:34.869 --> 00:47:38.610
were often punished or expelled. Now, one of

00:47:38.610 --> 00:47:41.650
those was Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson,

00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:44.489
who were banished for challenging Puritan authorities,

00:47:44.670 --> 00:47:47.809
and they later... founded the colony of Rhode

00:47:47.809 --> 00:47:51.730
Island. Yes. And Rhode Island is kind of like

00:47:51.730 --> 00:47:56.409
this island of tolerance that exists in New England

00:47:56.409 --> 00:47:59.789
at the time. Okay, so the Massachusetts Bay Colony

00:47:59.789 --> 00:48:01.730
and the Plymouth Colony at some point merged.

00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:04.789
Eventually, yes. And just as a little geographic

00:48:04.789 --> 00:48:06.590
quirk, too, for people that don't know this,

00:48:06.769 --> 00:48:09.570
what is now the state of Maine was part of the

00:48:09.570 --> 00:48:11.530
Massachusetts Bay Colony for a long time. It

00:48:11.530 --> 00:48:14.400
didn't become a separate... and part of the state

00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:15.840
as well, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts after

00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:17.420
independence. It didn't become its own separate

00:48:17.420 --> 00:48:19.519
state until 1820. So anyway, this was also a

00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:21.420
main... As part of the Missouri Compromise. Yeah,

00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:24.800
but that's a whole different story. So the Puritans,

00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.679
different groups, okay, settled in Massachusetts.

00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:31.659
Now, they did practice their own brand of intolerance,

00:48:31.699 --> 00:48:36.300
and a target of theirs were Quakers. actually.

00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:40.300
And they often accused the Quakers of being witches,

00:48:40.539 --> 00:48:45.519
which was very difficult to disprove. And many

00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:48.400
of them were hung or burned or other things.

00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:50.960
Well, who are you communing with, you know, when

00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:53.889
you're in your meeting house, you know? Is it

00:48:53.889 --> 00:48:58.909
Satan? So it's not an exaggeration to say that

00:48:58.909 --> 00:49:00.849
from the point of view of Puritans, the Quakers

00:49:00.849 --> 00:49:03.590
might have been engaging in satanic rituals and

00:49:03.590 --> 00:49:06.969
doing their very unusual, by Puritan standards,

00:49:07.050 --> 00:49:10.829
very unusual services. Where you have women leading

00:49:10.829 --> 00:49:14.570
them or all sorts of things that are inconsistent

00:49:14.570 --> 00:49:17.690
with the hierarchical nature of society that

00:49:17.690 --> 00:49:22.130
the Puritans envisioned. This is so counter to

00:49:22.130 --> 00:49:27.960
the Quakers. The Quakers, we've seen what they

00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:32.539
were able to do in Pennsylvania. Where we're

00:49:32.539 --> 00:49:36.460
going with what's happening in Massachusetts,

00:49:36.460 --> 00:49:41.059
all of these guys are going to morph into Congregationalist

00:49:41.059 --> 00:49:46.059
churches, and Congregationalist churches are

00:49:46.059 --> 00:49:51.269
generally concentrated in New England. At odds

00:49:51.269 --> 00:49:55.650
with what we're seeing in the South, it is the

00:49:55.650 --> 00:49:58.409
church is run by the congregation. It's not a

00:49:58.409 --> 00:50:01.369
hierarchical organization like you would see

00:50:01.369 --> 00:50:04.849
in Virginia, correct? And let's get back to congregational

00:50:04.849 --> 00:50:07.010
in just a second. I would just note that the

00:50:07.010 --> 00:50:12.269
Connecticut Colony, founded in 1636, was founded

00:50:12.269 --> 00:50:14.949
largely by Puritan settlers from the neighboring

00:50:14.949 --> 00:50:18.539
Massachusetts Bay Colony. These settlers wanted

00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:20.900
to build communities based on strict Protestant

00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:24.719
religious principles, especially congregationalism.

00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:27.960
Yes. And we should define that. Well, it's basically

00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:32.500
Calvinism, but no hierarchy at all. Yeah. That's

00:50:32.500 --> 00:50:35.820
distinct from, say, like Presbyterianism or the

00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:38.500
Episcopal Church or the Anglican Church. There

00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:41.199
is no hierarchy. The congregation runs the church.

00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:43.940
Yeah. The founder of Connecticut was a guy named

00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:47.119
Thomas Hooker. And he left the Massachusetts

00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:50.539
Bay Colony because he led a group of Puritans

00:50:50.539 --> 00:50:54.059
from the Massachusetts Bay Colony who disagreed

00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:58.079
with the Massachusetts policy of limiting suffrage

00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:01.880
to what were called free men. Free men were defined

00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:05.340
as people, I guess all male, but I don't know.

00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:08.239
I mean, did they, did women? get a say in those

00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:10.760
days yet. Not in Massachusetts. Not in Massachusetts,

00:51:10.940 --> 00:51:13.420
right. So free men, literally men, who could

00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:15.900
pass a detailed interrogation on their religious

00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:17.280
views to make sure that they were, you know,

00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:19.880
pure enough and such. Well, Hooker and his followers

00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.539
decided that that was too strict, and they wanted

00:51:22.539 --> 00:51:27.320
greater suffrage voting ability, I guess in religious

00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:30.460
affairs, in the way congregations were run, which

00:51:30.460 --> 00:51:32.639
leads to your point about congregationalism and

00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.119
no hierarchy. So Hooker wanted, in Connecticut,

00:51:36.670 --> 00:51:39.469
It wasn't so much that he wanted necessarily

00:51:39.469 --> 00:51:41.769
greater freedom of religious practice or anything.

00:51:41.949 --> 00:51:46.710
He was a Puritan, but he wanted more Puritans,

00:51:46.710 --> 00:51:48.570
more people to be able to have a say in what

00:51:48.570 --> 00:51:50.650
the congregation did, I guess is the way to think

00:51:50.650 --> 00:51:53.909
of it. So it was a dispute over that. I don't

00:51:53.909 --> 00:51:57.010
think it had a lot of other content of dispute

00:51:57.010 --> 00:51:59.570
over religious doctrine other than that, from

00:51:59.570 --> 00:52:01.630
what I saw, but I may be wrong about that. Over

00:52:01.630 --> 00:52:04.230
time, Connecticut became more religiously diverse.

00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:09.239
By the late 1600s and 1700s, groups such as Anglicans,

00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:11.880
Baptists, and Quakers had established communities

00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:15.179
despite facing various levels of discrimination

00:52:15.179 --> 00:52:19.619
from the dominant congregational church. In Connecticut.

00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:21.619
This is in Connecticut. So there still was discrimination

00:52:21.619 --> 00:52:23.760
against some of those. That follows the Massachusetts

00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:27.780
practice then, right? So, yeah. So you do have,

00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:30.340
I mean, you know, we do need to talk, you know,

00:52:30.340 --> 00:52:33.019
I think we've discussed this, but I mean, we

00:52:33.019 --> 00:52:36.030
are seeing... Along with this quest for religious

00:52:36.030 --> 00:52:39.090
liberty, we also have requests for religious

00:52:39.090 --> 00:52:43.869
intolerance to be permitted in these New England

00:52:43.869 --> 00:52:47.329
colonies. Which leads us to Rhode Island. It's

00:52:47.329 --> 00:52:50.929
another great story in this narrative. Founded

00:52:50.929 --> 00:52:55.010
in 1636 by Roger Williams after he was expelled

00:52:55.010 --> 00:52:58.070
from Massachusetts for his religious beliefs.

00:52:59.130 --> 00:53:02.489
Became mostly religiously tolerant. Became the

00:53:02.489 --> 00:53:05.030
most religiously tolerant colony in New England.

00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:08.150
Supported separation of church and state and

00:53:08.150 --> 00:53:11.650
freedom of conscience. It welcomed Baptists,

00:53:11.650 --> 00:53:15.489
Quakers, Jews, and other minority groups. Williams

00:53:15.489 --> 00:53:21.030
himself was a deeply religious Puritan, but he

00:53:21.030 --> 00:53:22.809
did not believe that you should force that on

00:53:22.809 --> 00:53:25.250
everybody around you. Kind of interesting variation

00:53:25.250 --> 00:53:29.460
on a theme there, right? Right, exactly. My understanding

00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:32.219
is he might even urge you to adopt more Puritan

00:53:32.219 --> 00:53:35.219
ways or something. But he wouldn't force it on

00:53:35.219 --> 00:53:41.340
you. He believed that neither the church nor

00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:43.840
the state should regulate individual conscience

00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:48.360
or spiritual beliefs. Because he believed that

00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:51.659
forced worship, in other words, you're forced

00:53:51.659 --> 00:53:53.820
to do it by a church or state authority, forced

00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:59.699
worship corrupts faith. And also, another thing

00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:02.260
that he disagreed with the people in Massachusetts

00:54:02.260 --> 00:54:04.400
on was that he believed that Native Americans

00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:07.119
were equal to European settlers. Yes. Oh, my

00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:09.699
goodness. As fellow human beings. And that the

00:54:09.699 --> 00:54:12.159
seizure of their land by Europeans was wrong.

00:54:12.739 --> 00:54:15.860
That did not go over well in Massachusetts, which

00:54:15.860 --> 00:54:17.380
is part of the reason he was invited to leave.

00:54:17.659 --> 00:54:21.340
Asked to leave. He was a devout Christian who

00:54:21.340 --> 00:54:24.000
lived his life according to Scripture. He believed

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.570
in the divinity of Christ. but nonetheless insisted

00:54:26.570 --> 00:54:28.409
on freedom of religious belief and practice for

00:54:28.409 --> 00:54:30.750
Quakers, with whom he strongly disagreed on theological

00:54:30.750 --> 00:54:33.710
matters, as well as Jews and others in Rhode

00:54:33.710 --> 00:54:35.550
Island. Newport, Rhode Island was one of the

00:54:35.550 --> 00:54:41.670
first cities to have a significant Jewish population.

00:54:42.250 --> 00:54:45.570
It is still there. We will get into that when

00:54:45.570 --> 00:54:47.670
we talk about Washington, because that synagogue

00:54:47.670 --> 00:54:50.869
plays a role in Washington's expression for religious

00:54:50.869 --> 00:54:53.130
beliefs, but that is one of the oldest synagogues

00:54:53.130 --> 00:54:56.019
in the United States. So Rhode Island is one

00:54:56.019 --> 00:54:58.659
of the earliest experiments in broad religious

00:54:58.659 --> 00:55:01.519
liberty in the English -speaking world, and it

00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:06.059
is actually quite a jewel in the colonial times

00:55:06.059 --> 00:55:09.739
in terms of religious affinity, religious outlook.

00:55:10.179 --> 00:55:12.880
In New England, though, Rhode Island has an interesting

00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:18.940
reputation. It is referred to sometimes as Rogue's

00:55:18.940 --> 00:55:21.800
Island, and this might reflect a certain degree

00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:27.280
of intolerance. that is residual. Also, they

00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:30.320
have a high tolerance, probably as high a tolerance

00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:33.539
for political corruption as Louisiana has, which

00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:37.639
is saying something. And so Rhode Island is always

00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:42.599
seen as like this exceptional spot, even by today's

00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:45.940
standards, in New England, talking to people

00:55:45.940 --> 00:55:49.239
from New England. In terms of acceptance of corruption?

00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:53.119
Well, in terms of just... Not being as strict.

00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:56.300
As strict. Okay. All right. The lack of strictness

00:55:56.300 --> 00:56:00.639
that exists in Rhode Island. And I think that

00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:04.679
this is a residual approach that people are taking

00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:08.059
because there are certain habits of thought that

00:56:08.059 --> 00:56:11.219
persist even after their original rationale has

00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:14.900
left. And I think this is part and parcel of

00:56:14.900 --> 00:56:17.860
that. We'll wait and see what people from New

00:56:17.860 --> 00:56:21.460
England have to say about this, hopefully. when

00:56:21.460 --> 00:56:24.599
we air. Rounding out the New England colonies

00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:28.320
is New Hampshire, which was founded in 1629,

00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.619
initially tied very closely to the Massachusetts

00:56:31.619 --> 00:56:36.159
colonies and influenced by Puritanism. Over time,

00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:38.980
it became somewhat more religiously mixed and

00:56:38.980 --> 00:56:41.820
less rigidly controlled than Massachusetts Bay.

00:56:42.059 --> 00:56:46.019
And it was founded specifically as a commercial

00:56:46.019 --> 00:56:48.730
enterprise. It was founded for strictly secular

00:56:48.730 --> 00:56:51.489
reasons. It was thought that the area had significant

00:56:51.489 --> 00:56:54.469
timber, fur, and fishery resources, and it was

00:56:54.469 --> 00:56:56.289
settled by people who wanted to exploit those

00:56:56.289 --> 00:56:59.789
resources. So, you know, whatever the influence

00:56:59.789 --> 00:57:01.769
of the other religious practices around them,

00:57:01.809 --> 00:57:03.750
remember that Massachusetts Bay Colony included

00:57:03.750 --> 00:57:05.909
what is now Maine as well as what is now Massachusetts.

00:57:06.030 --> 00:57:07.610
So that was on both sides of New Hampshire. So

00:57:07.610 --> 00:57:10.010
I'm sure that had some effect on what happened

00:57:10.010 --> 00:57:12.550
in New Hampshire, but there was no religious

00:57:12.550 --> 00:57:15.739
content to its foundation. Nowadays, New Hampshire

00:57:15.739 --> 00:57:17.780
is where people from Massachusetts go to buy

00:57:17.780 --> 00:57:24.099
liquor at discounted prices. Yes. Yes, the original

00:57:24.099 --> 00:57:25.739
Saturday Night Live, I believe, mentioned that

00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:29.500
back in 1977. There is truth to this. Or 1980,

00:57:29.780 --> 00:57:31.820
I should say. There is truth to this. It's like

00:57:31.820 --> 00:57:35.659
they do not, the taxes are much lower in New

00:57:35.659 --> 00:57:46.820
Hampshire than they are elsewhere. So we have

00:57:46.820 --> 00:57:50.280
a mixed bag here of how the colonies, the 13

00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.500
colonies were founded, what the reasons for their

00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:54.800
foundation were. Very much a mixed bag. Right.

00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:59.500
And we need to bear in mind also Canada was settled

00:57:59.500 --> 00:58:02.320
by the British and the French, which were also

00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:05.519
Christian nations. As we mentioned, Florida was

00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:09.860
founded by, settled by the Spanish, which was...

00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:12.940
catholic yes the french settled the interior

00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:14.519
of what was going to become the united states

00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:17.179
yeah correct not in great numbers but they were

00:58:17.179 --> 00:58:20.000
there you know so sure they were exploiting the

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:22.960
fur you didn't really need to establish settlements

00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:27.039
yeah you just needed places to pick up your your

00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.659
the spoils yeah of your of your harvesting and

00:58:30.659 --> 00:58:33.059
you're trading with indians you didn't need you

00:58:33.059 --> 00:58:35.159
know so new orleans could could accomplish a

00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:38.030
great deal for the french So let's zoom out here.

00:58:38.070 --> 00:58:41.050
So what do we think then? So the proposition

00:58:41.050 --> 00:58:43.869
that some people make that the United States

00:58:43.869 --> 00:58:46.130
was founded as a Christian nation, we've gone

00:58:46.130 --> 00:58:47.889
before the foundation of the country to look

00:58:47.889 --> 00:58:49.929
at the colonies that actually made it up, which

00:58:49.929 --> 00:58:52.409
were forged together to make the country. And

00:58:52.409 --> 00:58:54.750
what we're seeing is some of them were not found

00:58:54.750 --> 00:58:57.280
for religious reasons at all. But they had religion

00:58:57.280 --> 00:58:59.360
in them. Well, they had religion in them. But

00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:02.079
you don't have that anywhere in the country.

00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:04.239
And it's all Christian. It's all Christian. Religion

00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:06.320
is everywhere. It's all Christian. Religion is

00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:10.539
everywhere. And yes, the people founding the

00:59:10.539 --> 00:59:17.079
colonies were Christian. But the colonies were

00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:19.659
not necessarily founded for reasons of religion.

00:59:19.940 --> 00:59:21.880
Some were, some weren't. Some were, some weren't.

00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:24.139
So if the proposition is that the United States

00:59:24.139 --> 00:59:26.409
was founded as a Christian nation, And then you

00:59:26.409 --> 00:59:28.289
go back before that and look at, well, how were

00:59:28.289 --> 00:59:30.449
the colonies founded that wound up making up

00:59:30.449 --> 00:59:32.750
the future United States? Right. It is by no

00:59:32.750 --> 00:59:35.170
means true that they were founded for religious

00:59:35.170 --> 00:59:37.969
reasons. Some were. Some were not. I would say

00:59:37.969 --> 00:59:41.369
that's the first thing that I would say. And

00:59:41.369 --> 00:59:43.849
then another thing I would say is that if we

00:59:43.849 --> 00:59:45.510
want to look at the idea of is there an established

00:59:45.510 --> 00:59:47.510
religion or should there be an established religion

00:59:47.510 --> 00:59:49.650
in the United States? Which some people want.

00:59:49.849 --> 00:59:52.130
Which some people want. When we look at the colonies,

00:59:52.269 --> 00:59:55.070
we find out that. like Virginia in particular,

00:59:55.170 --> 00:59:57.949
had an established religion. But a lot of them

00:59:57.949 --> 01:00:01.329
did not. So there isn't... I guess what I'm trying

01:00:01.329 --> 01:00:03.230
to get at here is you can't look at the foundation

01:00:03.230 --> 01:00:05.710
of the colonies that later made up the United

01:00:05.710 --> 01:00:08.309
States and make a broad claim that there was

01:00:08.309 --> 01:00:13.190
a religious test for their creation by any stretch.

01:00:13.369 --> 01:00:15.650
I don't think you can make that claim. There

01:00:15.650 --> 01:00:19.599
was not. And both... Pennsylvania and Rhode Island

01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:24.440
were actually enclaves of tolerance and openness

01:00:24.440 --> 01:00:27.860
to all kinds of religions. The other thing is

01:00:27.860 --> 01:00:31.019
these colonies that are founded for religious

01:00:31.019 --> 01:00:34.179
purposes are not founded as Christian colonies.

01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:37.840
They're founded as Puritan colonies, Catholic

01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:41.579
colonies, Quaker colonies, Congregationalist

01:00:41.579 --> 01:00:45.070
colonies. All of which, I mean, if you look at

01:00:45.070 --> 01:00:48.150
New England, you look at the South, you have

01:00:48.150 --> 01:00:52.190
totally at odds dominant religious approaches

01:00:52.190 --> 01:00:56.030
in each of them. Congregationalists, it's the

01:00:56.030 --> 01:00:57.769
congregation. And for people to make sure people

01:00:57.769 --> 01:00:59.590
understand, so there are no Puritans anymore.

01:00:59.909 --> 01:01:02.170
No. The Puritans evolved into what are now called

01:01:02.170 --> 01:01:04.030
the Congregationalists. That's what Marshall's

01:01:04.030 --> 01:01:05.929
referring to. And even into Unitarians, too.

01:01:06.030 --> 01:01:10.719
But you see different religious approaches. In

01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:13.460
terms of what constitutes Christianity, dominant

01:01:13.460 --> 01:01:17.219
Christianity, not exclusively, dominant Christianity

01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:21.380
is an approach that is decentralized, that involves

01:01:21.380 --> 01:01:24.840
congregations basically running their own affairs

01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:28.489
in New England. What you have in the South is

01:01:28.489 --> 01:01:31.230
you have a completely different hierarchical

01:01:31.230 --> 01:01:33.889
approach to religion. The Church of England.

01:01:34.030 --> 01:01:36.769
The Church of England, which is supported by,

01:01:36.909 --> 01:01:40.369
in Virginia at least, but only in Virginia, by

01:01:40.369 --> 01:01:44.730
tithes or taxes. So the approaches to religion

01:01:44.730 --> 01:01:47.289
that you have, you can't, you know, people have

01:01:47.289 --> 01:01:49.329
this idea, it's a Christian country, Christians

01:01:49.329 --> 01:01:52.289
founded this place, but different types of Christians,

01:01:52.369 --> 01:01:55.619
Christians that are... It was a very broad spectrum.

01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:57.800
Their religious views are completely at odds

01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:00.320
with each other. Right. So the idea that you

01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:03.820
could create and construct something that would

01:02:03.820 --> 01:02:08.900
unify... And some persecuted others. Yes, and

01:02:08.900 --> 01:02:12.559
some came here to persecute others. That was

01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:15.000
the whole point. Yes, they came here. Well, yeah,

01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:17.840
and to reinforce that point is some of the colonies

01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:20.179
were founded to create havens for people fleeing

01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:22.360
from other colonies. That were persecuting them.

01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:23.920
That were being persecuted in the other colonies,

01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:28.599
not just in Europe or in England. This is sort

01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:30.800
of looking ahead to the next one where we're

01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:33.440
going to be talking about the founders. But what's

01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:36.320
going on in Europe in the 17th century is there's

01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:38.940
all sorts of, at least in the first half, all

01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:42.280
sorts of religious wars and quasi -religious

01:02:42.280 --> 01:02:46.300
wars happening later on in the second half. And

01:02:46.300 --> 01:02:50.659
this is something that the founding fathers are

01:02:50.659 --> 01:02:53.420
going to be repelled by in the idea that you

01:02:53.420 --> 01:02:57.179
would... you still have a diverse religious makeup

01:02:57.179 --> 01:03:01.119
that exists in the new world, probably much more

01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:06.300
diverse than what exists over in Europe, where

01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:11.340
you've got Lutherans and Calvinists and Catholics

01:03:11.340 --> 01:03:17.800
over there. You've got a lot more moving parts

01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:21.940
over here, and this is going to create problems

01:03:21.940 --> 01:03:25.860
if you try to create, a national church or establish

01:03:25.860 --> 01:03:29.119
a church, and it only gets more complicated when

01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.599
you get past the Second Great Awakening. Well,

01:03:31.619 --> 01:03:35.840
you have some of the people fleeing Europe. England

01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:39.019
as well, but also Europe more generally. And

01:03:39.019 --> 01:03:40.800
Germany. And Germany. And France. You know, they're

01:03:40.800 --> 01:03:42.780
dealing, we talked about this in the last episode,

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.659
they're dealing with all sorts of religious strife.

01:03:45.659 --> 01:03:48.079
In the 1600s, notably, right, you have the Thirty

01:03:48.079 --> 01:03:50.820
Years' War, a terribly destructive war, 1618

01:03:50.820 --> 01:03:53.760
to 1648. You have the English Civil War, which

01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:56.900
is... Puritans versus, you know, the Puritans

01:03:56.900 --> 01:04:01.179
are basically versing... Kind of the king. The

01:04:01.179 --> 01:04:03.280
king. So kind of Church of England versus the

01:04:03.280 --> 01:04:06.559
Puritans. Yes, and he's looking at a high church.

01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:10.780
High church versus Puritans. Which is very ritualistic.

01:04:10.780 --> 01:04:13.960
And those years of the English Civil War were

01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.559
16... 42. I mean, if you want to take it up to

01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:21.119
1660, because that is when King Charles II comes

01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:25.659
back. But 1642 is when the Civil War kicks off.

01:04:26.750 --> 01:04:29.530
Charles I is beheaded in 1649. Yeah. And then

01:04:29.530 --> 01:04:31.929
I'm not sure when the fighting stopped. Well,

01:04:31.949 --> 01:04:35.070
it was shot in 48. 48, yeah. Okay, so that era.

01:04:35.110 --> 01:04:38.389
So 1640. So you're looking at by the middle of

01:04:38.389 --> 01:04:41.150
the 17th century, you've had terrible religious

01:04:41.150 --> 01:04:43.670
strife in England itself and also in Europe more

01:04:43.670 --> 01:04:45.730
generally. People are trying to get away from

01:04:45.730 --> 01:04:48.510
that. Now, some of them are trying to get away

01:04:48.510 --> 01:04:50.369
so that they could be the oppressors. Others

01:04:50.369 --> 01:04:52.289
are just trying to get away so that they don't

01:04:52.289 --> 01:04:56.739
get oppressed. And so you have a mix, again,

01:04:56.840 --> 01:04:58.679
a mixed bag between the different colonies in

01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:01.420
terms of the makeup. But you generally seem to

01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:04.900
have those two types of people coming over. In

01:05:04.900 --> 01:05:06.380
addition to people coming over who just want

01:05:06.380 --> 01:05:08.900
to make a buck. I guess in those days they should

01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:12.320
make a pound. They want to come over to make

01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:15.820
money. That's their primary focus. I mean, not

01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:17.980
everybody that came over was deeply religious,

01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:20.619
devout. really cared what everybody in every

01:05:20.619 --> 01:05:22.019
church thought or anything. They just wanted

01:05:22.019 --> 01:05:26.559
to come over to fish and grow tobacco and, you

01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:28.860
know, trap furs. Maybe go to church when they

01:05:28.860 --> 01:05:32.980
did. They weren't like, you know, wanting to

01:05:32.980 --> 01:05:35.860
practice atheism on their tobacco plantation

01:05:35.860 --> 01:05:38.320
or something like that. I mean, they may have

01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:41.659
been believers, but they weren't as... motivated

01:05:41.659 --> 01:05:43.460
by religious, you know, doctrine or anything

01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:46.599
like that. They were orthodox in terms of the

01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:49.599
standards of the time. It wasn't a driving force

01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:54.659
in what they did. So, you know, I think my opinion,

01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:57.059
having walked through all this, is that you can't

01:05:57.059 --> 01:06:00.800
really pin a religious motivation on the foundation

01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:04.159
of the colonies writ large. There is some. And

01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:07.039
then again, there also isn't any in some cases.

01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:08.199
I think it's instructive to look at, right? Oh,

01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:11.500
yes. Because this is the whole point of our exercise

01:06:11.500 --> 01:06:14.000
here. It's instructive to look at. We're taking

01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:16.099
the argument. We are looking at the argument,

01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:19.380
and we're trying to see whether it has merit,

01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:22.000
and history will actually back that up. And I

01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:30.039
would say the idea that you can have a sort of

01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:33.500
generic Christianity. is most definitely what

01:06:33.500 --> 01:06:40.639
we did not have. I mean, you have groups like

01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:44.179
the Quakers, which are completely at odds with

01:06:44.179 --> 01:06:48.579
the Episcopalians or even the Congregationalists.

01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:50.719
Well, not only that. I mean, agreeing with everything

01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:52.239
you're saying, right? But not only that, but

01:06:52.239 --> 01:06:54.019
then when you take another step further, even

01:06:54.019 --> 01:06:56.539
beyond that, we also have evidence from our colonial

01:06:56.539 --> 01:07:00.159
history that if you do try to have an established

01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:04.269
church, that can lead to persecution of people

01:07:04.269 --> 01:07:07.170
who don't belong to that church. Who are still

01:07:07.170 --> 01:07:09.070
Christians. Who are still Christians. And if

01:07:09.070 --> 01:07:10.929
you upscale that to an entire country, then,

01:07:10.949 --> 01:07:12.949
let's say the United States was founded and said,

01:07:12.989 --> 01:07:14.469
well, this is our established church, and let's

01:07:14.469 --> 01:07:16.170
say you actually settled on which one that was,

01:07:16.349 --> 01:07:18.869
we have evidence in colonial history that that

01:07:18.869 --> 01:07:21.650
can lead to persecution of other Christians who

01:07:21.650 --> 01:07:23.269
don't fully agree with everything that church

01:07:23.269 --> 01:07:25.389
thinks. Because it did happen, and certainly

01:07:25.389 --> 01:07:27.429
in Massachusetts it happened. It happened in

01:07:27.429 --> 01:07:30.440
Massachusetts, and it happened, you know, Depending

01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:33.960
on what your belief structure was, it could happen

01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:35.739
elsewhere. It could happen elsewhere as well.

01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:38.820
And then you do have people that are fleeing

01:07:38.820 --> 01:07:41.409
the continent. who don't want to be Catholic,

01:07:41.510 --> 01:07:44.949
like the Huguenots or the Moravians who were

01:07:44.949 --> 01:07:48.230
under the Holy Roman Empire at the time. Among

01:07:48.230 --> 01:07:50.670
a lot of Americans, Catholicism remained frowned

01:07:50.670 --> 01:07:54.949
upon until very recently. World War II. That's

01:07:54.949 --> 01:07:59.090
a whole other story. These things continue. I

01:07:59.090 --> 01:08:02.269
would say the divergence of religious expression

01:08:02.269 --> 01:08:07.710
and views in the colonies. combined with the

01:08:07.710 --> 01:08:10.409
Age of Enlightenment thinking that was beginning

01:08:10.409 --> 01:08:12.710
to penetrate, you know, in the 1700s. Well, that's

01:08:12.710 --> 01:08:14.750
going to happen in the next, yes, that's going

01:08:14.750 --> 01:08:16.270
to happen in the next. As we get closer and closer

01:08:16.270 --> 01:08:19.649
to the founding and the drive for, quote -unquote,

01:08:19.869 --> 01:08:24.710
domestic tranquility. Yes. Led specifically to

01:08:24.710 --> 01:08:28.050
the not wanting to have an established religion.

01:08:28.149 --> 01:08:30.670
Well, let's talk about domestic tranquility.

01:08:30.850 --> 01:08:33.430
Let's look at the French here. The whole idea

01:08:33.430 --> 01:08:37.600
behind, you know, persecuting Protestants was,

01:08:37.779 --> 01:08:41.760
this is a disruptive element. Everyone would

01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:45.520
be better off if everyone was Catholic. And if

01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:49.079
everyone was Catholic, then they would not be

01:08:49.079 --> 01:08:52.619
going to hell. And I as the king, Louis XIV,

01:08:52.640 --> 01:08:55.000
I'm going to basically ensure that my subjects

01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:59.880
are orthodox in the manner of belief that I have.

01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:03.539
So this just sounds like a bit of a nightmare.

01:09:04.279 --> 01:09:06.939
You know, looking at this through the lens of

01:09:06.939 --> 01:09:09.699
an American experience, the idea that, you know,

01:09:09.699 --> 01:09:13.939
if you have different views, this sort of makes

01:09:13.939 --> 01:09:16.960
you disruptive. You're a disruptive force. You're

01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:19.640
a malcontent. And so you need to be suppressed

01:09:19.640 --> 01:09:23.750
regardless of conscience. In one respect, I suppose

01:09:23.750 --> 01:09:25.130
you could make the argument that if everybody

01:09:25.130 --> 01:09:26.869
thought exactly the same thing, you could have

01:09:26.869 --> 01:09:29.649
domestic tranquility. Yes, but what a miserable

01:09:29.649 --> 01:09:32.069
place that would be. But, you know, first off,

01:09:32.090 --> 01:09:33.810
you're never going to have that. No, you're never

01:09:33.810 --> 01:09:34.189
going to have that. Not everybody's going to

01:09:34.189 --> 01:09:36.250
agree on everything all the time. That's one

01:09:36.250 --> 01:09:39.289
thing. And the other aspect of it is, if you

01:09:39.289 --> 01:09:42.210
are a religious person, I think that Roger Williams'

01:09:42.449 --> 01:09:45.050
idea when he founded Rhode Island was that forced

01:09:45.050 --> 01:09:50.449
worship is not—it corrupts faith because you

01:09:50.449 --> 01:09:54.149
are being forced to— pretend that you believe

01:09:54.149 --> 01:09:56.210
something you don't. You're leading an inauthentic

01:09:56.210 --> 01:09:57.729
life. You're leading an inauthentic life. You're

01:09:57.729 --> 01:10:01.649
professing inauthentic beliefs. In a sense, you're

01:10:01.649 --> 01:10:05.050
lying. I guess you could argue, right? You know,

01:10:05.069 --> 01:10:07.069
I think that's an important thing to consider

01:10:07.069 --> 01:10:09.909
as we look at this, is what Roger Williams thought

01:10:09.909 --> 01:10:11.569
in Rhode Island. I think there's a lot of truth

01:10:11.569 --> 01:10:16.289
to that. What English Catholics had to do was...

01:10:16.539 --> 01:10:18.960
There were penalties if the household did not

01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:22.539
observe, did not show up for church at the local

01:10:22.539 --> 01:10:26.800
Anglican church. They would send representatives

01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:30.100
of the household to attend church, and they would

01:10:30.100 --> 01:10:31.899
just sort of sit there by their time, and then

01:10:31.899 --> 01:10:34.220
they'd go back and wait for a priest to show

01:10:34.220 --> 01:10:37.579
up to have Mass. And so this is sort of like

01:10:37.579 --> 01:10:40.140
going through the... This was perfectly acceptable.

01:10:40.760 --> 01:10:43.460
to Queen Elizabeth I. This was a compromise.

01:10:43.779 --> 01:10:49.899
I do not need to build windows into man's souls

01:10:49.899 --> 01:10:53.920
or something like that. But it's still, why are

01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:56.359
you forcing people to do this? What are you getting

01:10:56.359 --> 01:11:00.430
from this? And the idea is... I'm getting domestic

01:11:00.430 --> 01:11:03.989
tranquility. But you're not really. You're getting

01:11:03.989 --> 01:11:06.850
conformity, and conformity is not tranquility.

01:11:06.850 --> 01:11:08.109
And I don't want to get into everything we're

01:11:08.109 --> 01:11:09.850
going to talk about in the next episode right

01:11:09.850 --> 01:11:12.850
here and right now. But this is actually a very

01:11:12.850 --> 01:11:14.770
good kind of preview of what we're going to get

01:11:14.770 --> 01:11:18.149
into next time. Because among the founders was

01:11:18.149 --> 01:11:20.630
an awareness of all of this. Yes. And their approach,

01:11:20.930 --> 01:11:22.550
at least, I don't know if it's every single one

01:11:22.550 --> 01:11:26.369
of them, but the ones I looked at, right? They

01:11:26.369 --> 01:11:28.710
took the view, a very different view, that domestic

01:11:28.710 --> 01:11:31.930
tranquility doesn't require everyone to be forced

01:11:31.930 --> 01:11:35.869
to profess the same beliefs. It requires toleration.

01:11:35.890 --> 01:11:37.369
Some of them would phrase it, others would say

01:11:37.369 --> 01:11:40.850
it requires a complete abolition of the state

01:11:40.850 --> 01:11:43.789
or the church, telling people what to think.

01:11:43.890 --> 01:11:46.289
That tranquility comes from people having freedom

01:11:46.289 --> 01:11:48.329
of conscience and freedom of religion and being

01:11:48.329 --> 01:11:50.729
able to worship in the way they want. Then you

01:11:50.729 --> 01:11:54.460
can have tranquility, which... Even if they thought

01:11:54.460 --> 01:11:57.199
that, and many of them did, that religion was

01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:00.659
an important foundation of morality. And in fact,

01:12:00.699 --> 01:12:02.859
having religious belief was an important part

01:12:02.859 --> 01:12:04.859
of tranquility, a lot of them thought. Nonetheless,

01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:09.359
you had to be tolerant of, allow, you know, whatever

01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:11.800
the right words are, all religious beliefs in

01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:13.819
order to maintain tranquility. That not to do

01:12:13.819 --> 01:12:19.579
so creates civil strife. Yes. That's it for this

01:12:19.579 --> 01:12:22.739
episode of the United States of Amnesia. Thank

01:12:22.739 --> 01:12:25.079
you for listening. We hope you learned something

01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:27.300
and we hope you discovered new ways of looking

01:12:27.300 --> 01:12:29.960
at things you had already heard or thought about

01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:33.359
or perhaps hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed

01:12:33.359 --> 01:12:35.659
it, that's great. If we made you mad, that's

01:12:35.659 --> 01:12:40.560
okay too. Either way, email us at usa .amnesia

01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:43.199
at gmail .com and let us know what you think.

01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:45.840
Also, let us know about anything you think we

01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:47.920
missed or got wrong. We'd like to know about

01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:51.279
that too. And of course, Please like and subscribe

01:12:51.279 --> 01:12:53.380
and let your friends and neighbors know about

01:12:53.380 --> 01:12:59.859
us. We also have a website. It's www .usofamnesia

01:12:59.859 --> 01:13:04.300
.com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself, Blake Henke.

01:13:04.420 --> 01:13:05.359
Till next time.