The U.S. and Iran: What Went Wrong? - The Third Way

WEBVTT

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Be our refuge from these evils, now that the

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crown of King Cavus is lost. Alas for Iran, if

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it should be laid waste and become the lair of

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leopards and lions. Everywhere once were warriors

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on horseback and the dwelling places of kings.

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Now it is a place of hardship, suffering, and

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calamity, the dwelling place of the sharp -clawed

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dragon. Ferdowsi, Shanama. Iran and the United

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States are once again at loggerheads, and over

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the past 47 years, this isn't anything new. Since

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the fall of the Shah in 1979 and the taking of

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the U .S. hostages from the American embassy,

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relations between the two nations have been non

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-existent. This was not always the case. Welcome

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to the United States of Amnesia, the podcast

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that reminds us of what we have forgotten. History

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doesn't just tell us where we've been, it shapes

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how we understand the present. Yet the past is

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never as simple as we remember it. Over time,

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history becomes filtered through politics, ideology,

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and popular myth until the original story can

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be hard to recognize. History may not repeat

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itself, per se, but it often rhymes, as Mark

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Twain once remarked. Join Marshall Newman, Mike

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Mendenhall, and Blake Hinckley as we explore

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history, politics, religion, and the connections

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between them. By understanding the past more

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clearly, we can better understand the present

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and prepare for history's next rhyme. We have

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a guest today. Sharon Bybee joins us for this

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episode. Welcome. Sharon spent almost 30 years

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in the U .S. intelligence community, primarily

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working the Middle East. but also Russia, Ukraine,

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and a range of military issues before retiring

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in 2025. She holds a BA in International Studies

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and Anthropology from Emory University and an

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MA in Security Policy Studies from George Washington

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University. She is a lifelong student of history,

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politics, and culture with a particular interest

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in the Middle East and Iran. and in the ways

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history, culture, religion, and national identity

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shape contemporary events. During her career,

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she lived and traveled extensively in the Middle

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East. She is the author of the sub -stack, Redacted

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No More. Welcome, Sharon, and thank you for joining

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us today. Thanks so much. I'm really happy to

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be here today. I chose that selection from Ferdowsi's

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epic poem, Shanama, because it is... one of the

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most important poems in Persian culture and really

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represents the embodiment of the cultural identity

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of Iran. That selection in particular illustrates

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an idea that we're going to see throughout Iranian

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history, and most especially with the Qajars,

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that Iran is larger than its ruler. A ruler can

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fail catastrophically. But Iran remains something

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that must be saved. In that selection, Iran is

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being endangered by both foreign enemies and

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the stupidity of its own ruler. But Iran, the

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people, the language, the culture, the civilization

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itself, is something that the people will save.

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During the 19th and 20th century, America was

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actually admired by reformers and autocrats in

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what was then Persia. No one was insisting that

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Persia was hostile to the United States as a

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result of American ideas of freedom and democracy.

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Quite the contrary. American help was sought

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in a variety of ways, and American expertise

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was honored. Descriptions of America were regarded

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with favor. However, as we will see as time progressed,

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both sides developed fundamental misconceptions

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that would affect their relationships. In so

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many places, the United States failed to grasp

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the essence of Persia, Iran's aspirations, particularly

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through the prism of the period of the Cold War,

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where this was the main focus of US policy around

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the world. And then, in part because of the unconditional

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support of the Shah of Iran, the last Shah of

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Iran, Iran, too, also failed to understand the

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US and its priorities. Similarly, to its detriment,

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recent events, such as the consequences of recent

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U .S. elections, have done nothing to repair

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relations, and relations are unlikely to improve

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any time in the near future, as recent events

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will show. And one of the things that has struck

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me looking at the U .S. and Iran over the years

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has been the missed opportunities between the

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two countries. And we can get into some of these

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in later episodes, but I don't want to let Iran

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off the hook too much. It has made terrible choices,

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particularly in recent decades, in its support

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for terrorism. The first episode in this new

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series will focus on the period of roughly 1850.

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to 1920. And we'll chart how the two countries

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impacted each other. And there was a sort of

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limited interaction between the two, which I

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think is worth calling out just because of the

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impact it's going to have later on in their relationships.

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Now, throughout this episode and for part of

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the second one, I will be using the term, we

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will be using the term Persia to refer to Iran

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before the name was officially changed in the

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1930s. This was the name, and to this day there

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are people who refer to their culture and national

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identity as Persian and not Iranian. Most of

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the Iranians I met in the 1970s did so. So Persia,

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as Iran was known throughout the first third

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of the 20th century, is an old state and an old

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country, just as Sharon alluded to in our opening

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quote. Perhaps the first thing Americans should

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bear in mind is that unlike most of the Middle

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East, which was created artificially after the

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First and Second World Wars, Persia is one of

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the oldest civilizations on the planet, like

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Egypt, India, China. Iranians have strong, if

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at times schizophrenic, sense of themselves as

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the heirs of Cyrus the Great, Darius, Xerxes,

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and the great rulers of the 6th and 5th century

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BCE. Cyrus the Great was termed a Messiah by

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the Jewish people due to his role in ending the

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biblical Babylonian captivity. And one way of

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translating Messiah might be a little bit clearer

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for English speakers is God's anointed one, and

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Darius is the ruler in the Bible that some people

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may be familiar with of sending Daniel into the

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lion's den. A persistent notion, furthered by

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no less a person than Netanyahu, that the Persians

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have a visceral and historic enmity towards the

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Jews is illustrated in the book of Esther, also

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in the Bible. When a Persian official plotted

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the annihilation of the Jews, this view was put

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forward reportedly as Obama concluded the nuclear

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deal with Iran during his, this was during his

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first term. Second term, definitely Obama's second

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term. Okay. Netanyahu basically came over to

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the United States eager to sabotage this deal

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and was illustrating this as all sorts of tropes

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that Persia has this longstanding desire to destroy

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Jewish people, and this was something that he

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was eager to prevent the nuclear deal being signed

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here. Clearly, though, if we look at the longer

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road of history, particularly with this idea

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of Cyrus the Great being a messiah, anointed

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one. This has not always been the case. In ancient

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times, to go back to the highlight of Persia

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in its first incarnation, Persepolis, and we'll

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be returning to Persepolis later on, the capital

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was the cosmopolitan wonder of the world, which

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controlled the majority of what is now the modern

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Middle East. Persia competed with ancient Greece

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for dominance of the Mediterranean world in the

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6th and 5th centuries. BCE. BCE. The father of

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history, Herodotus, who is always kind of trying

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to play up this rivalry between East and West,

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does go into, in the histories, an account of

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Persia and its dynamic. And he has some good

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things to say, particularly about the postal

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system, which was remarkable for the ancient

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world here. Persia was eventually briefly conquered

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by Alexander the Great in the 4th century BCE,

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and Persian distinctions between himself and

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his neighbors would remain. And that's a really

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great summation of a few thousand years of history,

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because as you mentioned, they are an ancient

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civilization. So there are a few themes throughout

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all of this that I'd like to pull out because

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they come up again and again for the Iranians

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or the Persians, if you will. They have survived

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numerous invasions and foreign domination. You

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mentioned the Greeks, the Arabs, the Mongols.

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There were also the Turkic peoples. And then

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the Western powers intervened, as we'll get into.

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Iran absorbed influences from all of them, but

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a recognizably Persian culture and identity has

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endured. Another longstanding feature of Persian

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or Iranian culture is this recurring anxiety

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about being encircled and dominated by foreigners.

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And this gets to the concept of schizophrenia

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that you mentioned earlier. Modern Iran may be

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a large country with a long imperial history,

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but Iranians often see themselves as surrounded

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by peoples and powers that are different from

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them and potentially hostile to them. And Iran

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has always been somewhat distinct from its neighbors.

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Its language and cultural identity are Persian

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rather than Arab. And although they are overwhelmingly

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Muslim, They are mostly Shia in a predominantly

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Sunni Muslim region, and this is because of the

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Safavids who, back in the around 1500s to 1700s

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during their reign, instituted Shia Islam as

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the state religion, and this becomes very important

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later on as we'll get into. And as far as language

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goes, it's interesting to note that... Persian

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language. People call it Farsi, although I'm

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told that actually just means Persian. It does.

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It does, in fact. Anyway, that language is an

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Indo -European language. It's not Semitic. It's

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not related to Arabic or anything. It has Arabic

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loanwords in it. It has many Arabic loanwords

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because of the Arab invasion and the Arabic script

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kind of laid on top of it, although they put

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additional Persian letters in it, so it's a...

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Persian script, but it really is an Arabic script.

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Language forensics kind of tell you sometimes

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where people come from and how they differ from

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each other, and it's an entirely different language

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family. It is. I studied just enough to not be

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able to speak it, and it is very similar to German,

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as a matter of fact. There you go. Yeah. And

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I think the word they use for thank you is merci.

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It is. There you go. Yeah. And finally, Iranians

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live with the memory of having once been at the

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center of the world stage rather than on its

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periphery. As you mentioned, Persia was at once

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one of the world's greatest empires. And as we'll

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get into, Iran found itself increasingly vulnerable

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to the ambitions of Western powers and sometimes

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treated almost as a pawn on their chessboard.

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And those humiliations were deeply scarring for

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people with a... powerful memory of what their

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country had once been. Now, it would be helpful

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for me, at least, to understand the difference

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between Sunni and Shia Islam. That is a great

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question. I am not an Islamic scholar, so I don't

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want to get anything wrong. Let's see if the

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internet can help us out. It tells me the following,

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that there are some pretty significant differences

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in terms of how they view Islam. So in Shia Islam,

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the type which is predominant in Iran, they believe

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that the prophet divinely appointed Ali ibn Ali

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Talib, his cousin and son -in -law, as his successor.

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The Sunnis believe the prophet did not appoint

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a successor, and that a community consensus chose

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Abu Bakr, who was his close companion, as his

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successor. That's one difference. The Shia think

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that leadership is spiritual and political. the

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imamate, they call it, and that imams are divinely

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guided, sinless, and infallible descendants of

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the prophet. The Sunnis believe that leadership

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is political via a caliphate, and leaders are

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fallible. They are human guardians of the law

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chosen by the community. The Shia have a highly

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structured clerical hierarchy. So in Shia Islam,

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you hear about things like ayatollahs, right,

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and things like that, who act as representatives

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of the hidden imam. I think, you know, it's kind

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of similar in a way to some of our more structured

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Christian, you know, you think of Catholicism

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or Episcopalianism, right? They have a real hierarchy,

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you know, bishops and things, and there's a pope

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in Catholicism. So Shia Islam is more like that

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in terms of its organization, whereas in Sunni

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Islam, leadership is very dispersed. There isn't

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really any system of... deciding who an imam

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or something is other than... It's like the Baptist.

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Yeah, you decide he knows what he's doing, and

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so, okay, he's going to be your imam or things.

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Yeah, I guess it's like Baptist. Where you don't

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really have a hierarchy, clergy. So that's a

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significant difference. And they have different

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collections that they rely on, hadith collections

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they're called, which I guess are their... Their

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sayings. Their sayings. The sayings of the prophet.

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Yeah, they have different sources for those.

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And so the Shia are... predominantly in Iran

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and to a lesser extent Iraq, although I guess

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they're significant in Iraq as well. Significant

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in Iraq because Iraq is where the person who

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the Shia felt like was the successor of Muhammad

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was actually killed. And this becomes very important.

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The big Shia shrines are actually in Iraq. Is

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this Hussein? Yes. Okay. And that also becomes

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very, very important. And that is his nephew,

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Muhammad's nephew. Yes. There are also a lot

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of Shia in Lebanon, Bahrain, and in Azerbaijan.

00:15:22.820 --> 00:15:24.860
And Azerbaijan in particular plays a role in

00:15:24.860 --> 00:15:27.120
Iranian history, as we'll find out as we go along

00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.240
further. It was once owned by Iran. And the Sunnis

00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:32.320
are pretty much everywhere else. So Saudi Arabia,

00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:34.659
Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, you name it. And

00:15:34.659 --> 00:15:37.460
there are some Sunnis in Iran as well, particularly

00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.419
down in the southern part along the coast around

00:15:41.419 --> 00:15:43.340
the Strait of Hormuz. And there are other divisions.

00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:47.080
sects of Islam, if that's the right word, besides

00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:48.860
those two. But those are the two major ones.

00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:52.279
We will get into this later on, but there is

00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:55.440
a great deal of diversity of religion within

00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.899
Iran that includes a number of different groups

00:15:58.899 --> 00:16:01.220
in there. And I don't know how reliable some

00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:03.460
of the statistics I was able to come up with

00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:07.220
are, but it's interesting. People tend to view

00:16:07.220 --> 00:16:10.519
Iran as monolithically Shia. when there's actually

00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.299
a lot of other groups that have always lived

00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:14.820
there. In fact, even Christians, which are going

00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:16.799
to play a role in their relationship with the

00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:18.639
United States. There was a Jewish community in

00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:20.720
Iran. I don't know if there is anymore. There

00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.759
still is. It still survives? A small one, yes.

00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:25.340
But it's always been small. Yes. It's always

00:16:25.340 --> 00:16:28.799
been small. In fact, I did a kind of research.

00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.659
When I researched this, I found that there was

00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:34.620
no difference in terms of the numbers or the

00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:38.250
percentage of the population in 1920. that were

00:16:38.250 --> 00:16:41.429
Jewish, that identified as Jewish, and what some

00:16:41.429 --> 00:16:43.169
of these surveys that have been done in, say,

00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:47.250
2020, 2025, the same percentage were Jewish and

00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:50.950
Christian. Zoroastrianism arose in Iran. You're

00:16:50.950 --> 00:16:52.990
right. I think once that was the dominant religion

00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:55.690
there. It was. Way back. In antiquity. In antiquity.

00:16:55.750 --> 00:16:58.789
Like around the time of Darius and Cyrus. And

00:16:58.789 --> 00:17:00.690
I think, didn't Baha 'i start there as well?

00:17:00.690 --> 00:17:03.309
Yes, it did. Baha 'u'llah, the prophet of Baha

00:17:03.309 --> 00:17:06.759
'i, he was from... Iran in the 19th century,

00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:08.759
I believe. So yeah, there's a diversity there.

00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:12.119
And people also don't realize that in addition

00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.619
to religious diversity, there are also different

00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:19.460
ethnic groups. Persian is the largest ethnic

00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:22.640
group, but there are a lot of other ethnicities

00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:27.380
in Iran as well. Kurds. Yes. Kurds, Lors, Baluchis.

00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:32.849
I will not be able to name them all. And I don't

00:17:32.849 --> 00:17:35.430
think we need to in terms of that. But just to

00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:39.569
convey to our listeners, Iran is not this monolith.

00:17:39.750 --> 00:17:44.849
It is a diverse area. And this diversity is something

00:17:44.849 --> 00:17:49.369
that they attempt to address and deal with in

00:17:49.369 --> 00:17:52.769
their civilization here. But despite all of that,

00:17:52.869 --> 00:17:56.549
all of them think of themselves as Iranians.

00:17:56.549 --> 00:17:59.680
Yes. I mean, Persians think of themselves, they

00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.259
put that little extra layer of I'm a Persian.

00:18:02.299 --> 00:18:06.099
Yes. And, you know, and there is a certain ethnic

00:18:06.099 --> 00:18:09.420
consciousness that that implies here. That they

00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:13.559
are, you know, we talk about historical links

00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:16.519
and things like that. But the Persian actually

00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:20.440
conveys. a sense of that connection with the

00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:23.299
past. I said in an earlier series, I remember

00:18:23.299 --> 00:18:26.160
talking about how we often misuse the term nation

00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.099
when we really mean country or state. A country

00:18:30.099 --> 00:18:32.240
or a state is just a government that controls

00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.859
a certain chunk of territory. It says nothing

00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:37.529
about who's in it. A nation is actually a group

00:18:37.529 --> 00:18:40.710
of people with a shared language, culture, history,

00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:43.450
often religion. They may or may not have their

00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:47.690
own country, but they do have a shared identity.

00:18:48.490 --> 00:18:50.569
If you have a nation state, that's actually a

00:18:50.569 --> 00:18:53.029
very special case in which the nation and the

00:18:53.029 --> 00:18:55.430
territory it controls are the same thing, all

00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:58.089
under one government. Sometimes that happens

00:18:58.089 --> 00:18:59.849
in human history, and very often things are much

00:18:59.849 --> 00:19:01.569
messier than having a nation state. You often

00:19:01.569 --> 00:19:03.170
have other people within the state and things

00:19:03.170 --> 00:19:06.490
like that. So the reason I say this is Iran is

00:19:06.490 --> 00:19:08.329
a true nation state, and there aren't very many

00:19:08.329 --> 00:19:09.950
of those in the Middle East. Most, like you were

00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:11.970
saying, are these fake countries made up by...

00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:14.450
British and the French or whoever. Versailles

00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:16.549
Treaty. Things like that, right? Yes. Where they

00:19:16.549 --> 00:19:18.109
just drew a bunch of lines on the map and said,

00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:19.869
now you're a country, but they don't really have...

00:19:19.869 --> 00:19:22.009
Well, they said, now you're ours. Well, now you're

00:19:22.009 --> 00:19:23.890
ours. And then later they said, now we're leaving

00:19:23.890 --> 00:19:24.990
you're a country. We're leaving you're a country,

00:19:25.089 --> 00:19:26.789
yes. And it's important to make that distinction,

00:19:26.930 --> 00:19:28.910
I think, because it really shows you that, you

00:19:28.910 --> 00:19:31.170
know, if you're going to attack Iran, it's not

00:19:31.170 --> 00:19:33.849
the same thing as attacking, oh, say, Iraq. Yes.

00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:37.170
Exactly. And that is, and I think that is a mistake

00:19:37.170 --> 00:19:41.319
that we might... observe at this juncture is

00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.460
one that was made in the current engagement with

00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:49.079
Iran now. The idea that, oh, we just need to

00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.599
do shock and awe like we did with Iraq all those

00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:54.839
many years ago, and everything will just come

00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:56.319
falling down like a house of cards. The people

00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.819
will turn against the regime, and that may in

00:20:00.819 --> 00:20:04.460
fact not be the case. No, we'll get into that

00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:31.380
later on, but I think you're correct. At present,

00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:36.279
Iran is very much a central aspect of US foreign

00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.880
policy. But if we go back to the beginning of

00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.519
our story, which is in the 19th century, Washington

00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.000
was sort of indifferent to what was going on

00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.559
in Persia at the time. This was not something

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.430
that... U .S. policymakers thought was an important

00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:57.250
aspect. There was not really a great deal of

00:20:57.250 --> 00:21:01.849
trade between us and the Persians. And paradoxically,

00:21:02.029 --> 00:21:05.730
this makes Iran very, this makes Persia, finds

00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:09.450
the United States very attractive as a concept,

00:21:09.490 --> 00:21:11.250
because they're looking at the United States,

00:21:11.289 --> 00:21:14.049
they're not seeing a predatory European power.

00:21:14.410 --> 00:21:18.200
They're seeing a power that is kind of standing

00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.460
above those sort of imperialistic ambitions.

00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.700
And they viewed the United States as a kind of

00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:26.779
third way. This is how it's referred to in the

00:21:26.779 --> 00:21:30.079
literature at the time. Distinct from, say, Persia,

00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.140
but also distinct from the imperialist European

00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:36.460
powers. The United States was a new nation, and

00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:39.700
it was moving and advancing. And this was something

00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:42.740
that the Persians are looking on. And they're

00:21:42.740 --> 00:21:46.019
not hostile to this. They're actually... they

00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:48.980
actually find this attractive. And this exists

00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:52.160
not only amongst reformers, but also against

00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:55.839
government autocrats. So in the latter part of

00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:58.259
the 19th century, the United States had established

00:21:58.259 --> 00:22:01.099
itself as a new nation. But what was going on

00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:05.400
with Persia? Well, this could actually be considered

00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:09.680
a nadir of Persian history, because we are seeing

00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.799
the Qajar dynasty come into its own. Now, the

00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.630
Qajars... are an interesting group of people.

00:22:15.670 --> 00:22:19.049
They have some interesting cultural aspects.

00:22:19.849 --> 00:22:22.069
But Qajar rule was one of the most disastrous

00:22:22.069 --> 00:22:25.869
eras in Persian -Iranian history. And Qajar is

00:22:25.869 --> 00:22:28.190
the name of the dynasty. Is the name of the dynasty.

00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:30.769
The ruling family. The ruling family, yes. They

00:22:30.769 --> 00:22:34.369
came in at the very end of the 18th century.

00:22:34.569 --> 00:22:38.210
Yes. And they kind of have consolidated by the

00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:39.930
19th century. And for those who want to look

00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:43.240
it up. It's Q -A -J -A -R. You'll hear it called

00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:45.680
Qajar Iran. You'll hear it called Qajar Persia.

00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:49.559
Same thing. For the longest time, if we're looking

00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.579
at, say, the Caucasus and areas surrounding Iran,

00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.859
there was a kind of competition, three -way competition,

00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:59.180
that involved Russia, Turkey, and Persia. And

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:02.039
they were all competing as equals. However, in

00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.019
the 19th century, Persia found itself defeated.

00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:08.250
and say not unlike China in our previous episodes,

00:23:08.450 --> 00:23:11.349
it became the victim of increasing imperialist

00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:14.470
exploitation. And I would argue it's probably

00:23:14.470 --> 00:23:17.150
even worse in Iran than what we saw when we were

00:23:17.150 --> 00:23:20.430
talking about China. So one note before we go

00:23:20.430 --> 00:23:23.089
on, I'm going to be... referring to various Qajar

00:23:23.089 --> 00:23:26.049
rulers, and by and large, these are non -entities.

00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.829
There's no really heroic figure that emerges

00:23:28.829 --> 00:23:32.369
among the Qajars. And we don't need to go into

00:23:32.369 --> 00:23:34.670
a great deal of detail about them. We don't need

00:23:34.670 --> 00:23:36.509
to go into a lot of biographies. I'll mention

00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:38.670
some of them by name and mainly to distinguish

00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.269
one from the other. But by and large, they should

00:23:41.269 --> 00:23:44.789
be regarded as overfed, oversexed, and largely

00:23:44.789 --> 00:23:46.789
uninterested in the welfare of their own country,

00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:49.829
except in terms for how much in the way of resources

00:23:49.829 --> 00:23:53.450
they could... take away from it. The resources

00:23:53.450 --> 00:23:56.809
that they were looking at were seen to be leveraged

00:23:56.809 --> 00:24:00.430
for them to be able to support their kind of

00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:04.210
indolent lifestyles. This is a ruling class mentality

00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:07.470
that was not just limited to the 19th century

00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:10.490
or Persia, but I'm not going to delve into the

00:24:10.490 --> 00:24:14.369
sad and somewhat shabby history of this regime

00:24:14.369 --> 00:24:20.869
except to remark on its failures. The decline

00:24:20.869 --> 00:24:23.630
of Persia as a great power persisted throughout

00:24:23.630 --> 00:24:27.150
the 19th century. The Qajar dynasty surrendered

00:24:27.150 --> 00:24:31.049
territory and sovereignty to Russia in the treaties

00:24:31.049 --> 00:24:37.450
of Gulistan in 1813 and Turkmenchay in 1828.

00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:40.170
So those were the result of two different wars

00:24:40.170 --> 00:24:43.960
that the Qajar dynasty fought against. Russian

00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.460
Empire. And again, you know, Russia, this is

00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:49.599
kind of one of these interesting little paradoxes.

00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.880
By Western standards, Russia's military was somewhat

00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.339
backward, but it was vastly superior to anything

00:24:56.339 --> 00:24:58.700
the Khashoggi's had. And I mean, one of the things

00:24:58.700 --> 00:25:00.720
that, I'm going to go off on a Russia tangent

00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.079
here for just a little bit, but one of the things

00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:06.319
that kept Russia kind of from advancing was it

00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.039
was competing with a lot of countries that were

00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:12.960
subpar for influence in Central Asia and in the

00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.759
Caucasus and not necessarily gearing its military

00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:20.500
to fight the West. And so you don't need to be...

00:25:20.650 --> 00:25:23.069
all that great to compete with, say, Qajar Iran

00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:26.609
or Ottoman Turkey when it's the sick man of Europe.

00:25:26.710 --> 00:25:29.789
And in this era, the early 1800s, Russia was

00:25:29.789 --> 00:25:33.549
expanding into the Caucasus, right? Which is

00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:35.390
the area around the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea,

00:25:35.470 --> 00:25:38.970
into that area. Roughly 1800, when they acquired

00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:41.470
the Kingdom of Georgia, it was left to them by

00:25:41.470 --> 00:25:44.549
their last ruler, and then slowly their march,

00:25:44.609 --> 00:25:48.400
they're going towards the east. They're moving

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.700
into the Caucasus, the various kingdoms of the

00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:54.000
Caucasus, and they're also butting heads with

00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.480
Iran, and they're also moving into the Central

00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.759
Asian kingdoms as the 19th century progresses.

00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:01.960
And Persia or Iran had a long history in those

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:03.859
areas at this time. So when they lost them, this

00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:06.400
was actually in the early 1800s, this was actually

00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:09.279
a very big loss for them. This was a huge loss

00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:13.319
for them, incredibly humiliating, because these

00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.480
territories had been part of the Persian Empire

00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:20.250
for centuries. And Persia probably could have

00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:23.509
done better against Russia if they had tried

00:26:23.509 --> 00:26:25.869
different military tactics, but they were trying

00:26:25.869 --> 00:26:29.170
to fight Russia on Russia's terms. If they had

00:26:29.170 --> 00:26:31.890
tried to do something a little bit different

00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:34.950
and maybe take on some guerrilla tactics, they

00:26:34.950 --> 00:26:36.549
might have been a little bit more successful,

00:26:36.549 --> 00:26:39.569
but they were trying to fight like Russians.

00:26:39.869 --> 00:26:42.410
Well, they've kind of learned since then, I would

00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:47.680
say. The kind of losses occurred just for the

00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:50.839
benefit of people not necessarily familiar with

00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:54.619
this period of history included dependencies

00:26:54.619 --> 00:26:58.200
in the southern caucuses. And some of the things

00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:01.920
that Russia gained with these kind of unequal

00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:04.180
treaties, which are like the unequal treaties

00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:08.339
we saw in our China series, Russia had the exclusive

00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:10.700
right to maintain warships in the Caspian Sea.

00:27:11.369 --> 00:27:15.950
So the Caspian Sea became a Russian lake. At

00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:17.450
some point, and I don't know if it was right

00:27:17.450 --> 00:27:19.990
then or later, but the Russians actually got

00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:22.809
the Qajar dynasty to give up all Iranian fishing

00:27:22.809 --> 00:27:25.069
rights in the Caspian Sea, which was devastating

00:27:25.069 --> 00:27:28.150
for the fishing communities up in that part of

00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:31.789
Persia. They also got preferential rights to

00:27:31.789 --> 00:27:35.910
Russian merchant ships, and they allowed Russia

00:27:35.910 --> 00:27:38.779
a role in determining the succession. Amongst

00:27:38.779 --> 00:27:41.940
the Qajar dynasty. I mean, we're seeing sovereignty

00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:45.240
kind of being eroded by these unequal treaties.

00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:50.400
I mean, the Manchus still could run their own

00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.819
succession. In China. In China. You know, just

00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:55.700
to do a comparison with our earlier program.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.359
But the Qajars are kind of like having to...

00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.019
concerned themselves with not offending the Russians

00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:04.960
here. There's also an indemnity that the Qajars

00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.920
have to pay of roughly 20 million silver rubles.

00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:14.079
And significantly, they got extraterritoriality

00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.440
for Russian subjects, which means if you commit

00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.660
a crime in Persia, you get tried in a Russian

00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:24.369
court in Russia. not in Persia, and we all know

00:28:24.369 --> 00:28:26.970
how that's going to come out. The court will

00:28:26.970 --> 00:28:29.569
find for the Russian, no matter what they do.

00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:34.809
So in terms of, just to sum up, all of these

00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:37.390
measures that the Russians managed to extract

00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:41.890
from the Qajar dynasty compromised Persia's territorial,

00:28:42.250 --> 00:28:44.829
judicial, commercial, financial, and diplomatic

00:28:44.829 --> 00:28:49.619
sovereignty. Persia's problems were not just

00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:53.180
limited to Russian influence. The British were

00:28:53.180 --> 00:28:56.920
also involved, and they too had unequal treaties.

00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:03.140
And these were signed in 1801, 1809, 1814. And

00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:06.079
these forced Persia to provide forces to defend

00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:11.019
its position, Britain's position, in India. It

00:29:11.019 --> 00:29:14.619
compromised its diplomatic privileges, Britain's

00:29:14.619 --> 00:29:18.029
diplomatic privileges, and also provided... concessions

00:29:18.029 --> 00:29:21.170
to British merchants. Like the Russians, the

00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:24.109
British also got extraterritoriality privileges,

00:29:24.269 --> 00:29:29.009
and Persia also lost some more territory in what

00:29:29.009 --> 00:29:33.089
is now Afghanistan, because Russia and Britain

00:29:33.089 --> 00:29:36.390
kind of created Afghanistan as this place that

00:29:36.390 --> 00:29:39.109
was difficult to fight in, and they created it

00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:41.349
as a kind of neutral zone between its interests,

00:29:41.450 --> 00:29:44.750
which were coming up against each other as Russia

00:29:44.750 --> 00:29:49.880
is going east and Britain is kind of like consolidating

00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:55.099
its control in India. So Russia and Britain were

00:29:55.099 --> 00:29:56.819
engaged in what's been called the Great Game

00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:59.960
during the 19th century, which involved them

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:02.259
looking for influence, seeking greater influence

00:30:02.259 --> 00:30:04.880
in the Middle East and the Persian Gulf area.

00:30:05.259 --> 00:30:08.500
And Central Asia. Central Asia. And the British

00:30:08.500 --> 00:30:12.720
concern was the protection and defense of India,

00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.940
which was the great... crown and the jewel in

00:30:15.940 --> 00:30:19.680
the British Empire as they viewed it. British

00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:21.960
India was a much bigger thing than India is now,

00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:24.599
even though India is a big thing. It included

00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.839
Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma. We're all part of

00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.619
British India, along with India at the time.

00:30:30.220 --> 00:30:32.680
Afghanistan is a buffer zone. But they were trying

00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:34.940
to protect that, and they didn't want the Russians

00:30:34.940 --> 00:30:37.339
encroaching on it. The Russians, meanwhile, were

00:30:37.339 --> 00:30:40.400
expanding into the Caspian Sea, Black Sea area,

00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:43.380
the Caucasus, Central Asia. So since they were

00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:45.980
expanding, there was a collision imminent between

00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:47.980
the two. And so they were both playing these

00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:50.359
political games and these military endeavors

00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.960
in order to protect what their interests were

00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.359
in that area from one another. Yes. Notably,

00:30:56.420 --> 00:30:59.339
the concerns of Persia or Iran did not enter

00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:01.319
their calculations. No. That was just a thing

00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.740
in between them. And it was actually, it's interesting

00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:07.640
because both of them had difficulty reading each

00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.440
other when they're doing these great game type

00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.619
activities. Both of them are assuming a greater

00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:16.660
degree of interest in taking over their territory

00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:19.200
than was actually there. You mean taking over

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:20.599
each other's territory? Each other's territory.

00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:22.940
Like the British were constantly convinced that

00:31:22.940 --> 00:31:27.740
the Russians were going to come riding down into...

00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:31.650
India and take it over. The logistics on such

00:31:31.650 --> 00:31:34.809
a movement are just almost impossible to contemplate,

00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:37.930
particularly if we look at how bad Russians are

00:31:37.930 --> 00:31:41.170
with logistics. Russia was expanding in the 19th

00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:43.269
century, though, eastward a great deal, eastward

00:31:43.269 --> 00:31:46.289
and southward. It's not crazy for them to worry

00:31:46.289 --> 00:31:47.589
about it, but you're right, it's not realistic.

00:31:47.950 --> 00:31:51.450
They were expanding into a void. They were expanding

00:31:51.450 --> 00:31:54.609
into areas that, say, during the great days of

00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:57.609
the Silk Road, These were important cities, important

00:31:57.609 --> 00:32:00.890
stops, but really centralized control had kind

00:32:00.890 --> 00:32:03.029
of disappeared from the area, and we're talking

00:32:03.029 --> 00:32:06.430
about an era of city -states, not so much countries.

00:32:07.309 --> 00:32:10.630
We're talking about centers of power, not nations,

00:32:10.630 --> 00:32:13.190
that the Russians are moving into. Sparsely populated

00:32:13.190 --> 00:32:16.490
areas. Sparsely populated and very isolated from

00:32:16.490 --> 00:32:19.809
everything else. But oddly enough, even though

00:32:19.809 --> 00:32:21.750
they've got this competition going, they are

00:32:21.750 --> 00:32:27.250
very much cooperating on... kind of the exploitation

00:32:27.250 --> 00:32:32.109
of Persia, which is very much to the detriment

00:32:32.109 --> 00:32:36.069
of Persian sovereignty during the period. So

00:32:36.069 --> 00:32:38.910
of the two, the Russians tended to focus mainly

00:32:38.910 --> 00:32:41.730
on territorial control, and this is in the north.

00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:45.599
The issue of borders between Russia and Persia

00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.380
pops up several times in the 19th century, and

00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:51.819
this occurs well into the 20th century, as we

00:32:51.819 --> 00:32:55.309
will see. particularly in the Cold War period.

00:32:56.049 --> 00:33:00.650
Russia is effectively, slowly but surely, it's

00:33:00.650 --> 00:33:04.029
dismembering Persia and imposing legal difficulties

00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:07.910
on it functioning as a state, as an independent

00:33:07.910 --> 00:33:11.349
state. It still is an independent state, but

00:33:11.349 --> 00:33:13.970
it's having difficulty operating as one over

00:33:13.970 --> 00:33:17.089
the territory that is assigned to it. Russian

00:33:17.089 --> 00:33:21.690
treaties are less openly territorial, but they

00:33:21.690 --> 00:33:24.970
kind of converted Persia into a strategic buffer

00:33:24.970 --> 00:33:29.569
for British India, not unlike Afghanistan. And

00:33:29.569 --> 00:33:34.069
it kind of also encourages a strategic dependence

00:33:34.069 --> 00:33:39.859
on Britain, again, to the issue of sovereignty.

00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:43.440
It undermines sovereignty in Persia. So let's

00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.880
clarify, Marshall. I think you said the Russian

00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.619
treaties? We're focused mainly on territorial

00:33:47.619 --> 00:33:49.180
control. On territorial. The British were not.

00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.160
They're not. But the British are trying to seek

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:52.980
more influence. Yeah. Okay. I want to make sure

00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:54.619
we got that straight. They've got the buffer

00:33:54.619 --> 00:33:56.619
state of Afghanistan, but they're still looking

00:33:56.619 --> 00:34:00.700
at Persia to serve that function as well. But

00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:02.619
they're also exploiting it from a commercial

00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:06.380
standpoint. Yes. As they do. They're not trying

00:34:06.380 --> 00:34:10.000
to run things to the same degree that the Russians

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:15.030
are. And we will see kind of differences. as

00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:37.889
we progress. Foreign control over Iran was aided

00:34:37.889 --> 00:34:41.289
by the Qajar dynasty. The Qajars were willing

00:34:41.289 --> 00:34:45.190
to basically sell anything to get money to support

00:34:45.190 --> 00:34:50.409
their lavish lifestyle. And the usual customers

00:34:50.409 --> 00:34:52.829
for this were the British or the Russians. This

00:34:52.829 --> 00:34:55.489
inflicted a lot of humiliations on the people

00:34:55.489 --> 00:34:59.099
of Persia. who did not benefit from any of these

00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:01.760
transactions at all throughout the 19th and early

00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.059
20th century. These took the forms of economic

00:35:05.059 --> 00:35:09.400
monopolies, leased resources, and pledged further

00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.880
revenues, all for immediate cash payments. So

00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.679
the Qajars are basically fly now, pay later type

00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.760
monarchy in terms of governing things, if they

00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.980
can be said to govern at all. Foreigners had

00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:27.469
a right to construct most of the roads. and railroads,

00:35:27.730 --> 00:35:31.690
the exploitation of mines, development of forest,

00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:34.710
the management of customs and their revenue,

00:35:35.030 --> 00:35:39.030
fisheries concessions, banking, and importantly,

00:35:39.289 --> 00:35:42.610
the tobacco monopoly and revenue from the telegraph

00:35:42.610 --> 00:35:45.489
service. So all the ways that states could realize

00:35:45.489 --> 00:35:50.849
any sort of income is going to the foreigners,

00:35:51.070 --> 00:35:54.289
the Russians and the British, to the expense

00:35:54.289 --> 00:35:57.960
of what the Persians themselves could build as

00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:01.199
a state here. And, you know, when the Qajars

00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.860
did try to do something to, I don't know, stand

00:36:03.860 --> 00:36:07.559
up for Persia, do something useful for Persia,

00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:11.420
they screwed it up. They invaded Afghanistan

00:36:11.420 --> 00:36:15.659
in the mid -1850s to try to take the town of

00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:17.860
the city of Herat, which was strategically very

00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:19.599
important. They wanted to intervene in Afghan

00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.139
affairs. They're trying to do it at the expense

00:36:22.139 --> 00:36:24.880
of the British, who viewed Afghanistan as a protectorate

00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.219
of theirs. And they managed to take Herat, actually,

00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:31.079
and it's called the Second Herat War in 1856.

00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:36.139
But the British responded by launching an amphibious

00:36:36.139 --> 00:36:39.159
invasion of Persia down in the Persian Gulf,

00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:41.840
which was very successful. And they wound up

00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.539
losing Herat and had to make even more concessions

00:36:44.539 --> 00:36:46.380
to the British as a result of this war. So, I

00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:48.159
mean, even when they tried to do something, they

00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:50.400
still managed to make their situation worse.

00:36:51.019 --> 00:36:53.400
Now, something that we need to highlight, because

00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.179
it's going to have an impact throughout the 20th

00:36:57.179 --> 00:37:03.300
century, up until, like, 1953. And one way that

00:37:03.300 --> 00:37:05.900
the Kosher's were able to leverage some revenue,

00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:10.039
and not a lot of it, was the 1901 concession

00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:13.480
to a British subject, William Knox Darcy. And

00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:16.119
who was William Knox Darcy? Well, William Knox

00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:19.039
Darcy is actually the founder of British Petroleum.

00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:25.619
as it eventually became. And in 1901, they pledged

00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:29.139
the rights for 60 years to explore, extract,

00:37:29.539 --> 00:37:33.460
transport, and sell petroleum, natural gas, asphalt,

00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:37.340
and related substances over most of Persia, except

00:37:37.340 --> 00:37:39.880
for the northern part of Persia, which was under

00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.780
Russian control. And, you know, the Khazars couldn't

00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.480
really meddle with that because they didn't want

00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:49.150
to offend Russian sensibilities. So this is going

00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:52.489
to have a future, as we know, an impact on the

00:37:52.489 --> 00:37:54.949
future of Persia, probably beyond any of the

00:37:54.949 --> 00:37:57.670
other sources of revenue. The Qajars are like

00:37:57.670 --> 00:38:02.030
gambling away here. So once oil is discovered

00:38:02.030 --> 00:38:06.750
in Persia in 1908, this would be the biggest

00:38:06.750 --> 00:38:10.250
symbol of Qajar improvidence and British exploitation.

00:38:11.059 --> 00:38:14.500
So the discovery of Persian oil has an impact

00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:17.769
on Britain's policy because... The Royal Navy

00:38:17.769 --> 00:38:21.309
converts from coal to diesel because now they

00:38:21.309 --> 00:38:26.590
have access to all this cheap Persian— Fuel oil

00:38:26.590 --> 00:38:29.210
at the time, not diesel. Diesel is different.

00:38:29.309 --> 00:38:32.449
Fuel oil for oil -fired ships was a different

00:38:32.449 --> 00:38:34.610
substance, but fine. Fuel oil is what it would

00:38:34.610 --> 00:38:35.849
be in those days. All right, well, fuel oil.

00:38:36.010 --> 00:38:38.090
So they are converting to this. This was one

00:38:38.090 --> 00:38:41.610
of Churchill's big measures. And this also makes

00:38:41.610 --> 00:38:44.889
access to the Persian Gulf and the Middle East.

00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:47.519
that much more important to the British because

00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:52.679
it represents a strategic resource since Britain

00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:56.360
bases most of its power on the ability of the

00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:58.619
Royal Navy to project itself throughout the world.

00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:00.539
And Saudi oil hadn't been discovered yet, right?

00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:03.619
No, it hadn't. When was that, Sharon? 20s? 1920s?

00:39:03.619 --> 00:39:05.260
Oh, you know what? I don't remember off the top

00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:07.480
of my head. I think it's the 1920s. You know,

00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:12.179
and yeah, I think it's the 1920s after World

00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:16.619
War I. Basically, when the Saudi state comes

00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:19.500
into existence after the Treaty of Versailles,

00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:21.340
I think that's when the exploitation happens.

00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:24.639
And a lot of other exploitation happens throughout

00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:30.559
the area. But oil at this time is, though lucrative,

00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.480
it is not necessarily something that is in any

00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:38.480
way, shape, or form scarcity. Now, what did the

00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:42.199
Persian state gain from this transaction? Very

00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:46.809
little. It received 20 ,000 British pounds in

00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:52.389
cash and then 20 ,000 British pounds in shares

00:39:52.389 --> 00:39:55.789
in what became British Petroleum. So 20 ,000

00:39:55.789 --> 00:40:00.889
British pounds in 1908 would be worth about almost

00:40:00.989 --> 00:40:07.409
4 .2 million U .S. dollars in 2026. Yes. Not

00:40:07.409 --> 00:40:09.550
a lot of money. That is not a lot of money for

00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:12.210
something that is... I think the British are

00:40:12.210 --> 00:40:15.230
getting more money off of this than just, you

00:40:15.230 --> 00:40:18.329
know, a couple of million in their exploitation.

00:40:18.429 --> 00:40:21.570
Now, the other thing that they did get, in addition

00:40:21.570 --> 00:40:24.710
to 20 ,000 British pounds and 20 ,000 pounds

00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:30.630
in shares, is a mere 16 % of the profits. And

00:40:30.630 --> 00:40:35.780
they're locked into this for 60 years. This is

00:40:35.780 --> 00:40:39.000
kind of a humiliating concession. So the British

00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.719
are getting 84%. Yes. Yes. Until 1968. Until

00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.719
1968. And just to correct something, I looked

00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:50.739
up when the Saudis and when oil was discovered

00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:54.199
in Saudi Arabia, and it wasn't until much, much

00:40:54.199 --> 00:41:01.769
later, 1938. 38? 38. Wow. Okay. So right now,

00:41:01.929 --> 00:41:06.340
Persia... is a may is probably the main and only

00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:10.780
source of explored and and confirmed uh petroleum

00:41:10.780 --> 00:41:13.300
in in kind of the middle east at this time i

00:41:13.300 --> 00:41:15.840
i would i would guess because the turks are turks

00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:18.039
who control the rest of the middle east they're

00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:20.900
not doing anything with that now you had oil

00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:23.079
and what you had oil and what is now indonesia

00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:27.380
yeah you had oil now in persia iran but i don't

00:41:27.380 --> 00:41:29.019
think i don't know we'd have to go look up the

00:41:29.019 --> 00:41:31.500
details but i don't think i don't think you know

00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:34.059
you've got oil united states had oil And Russia

00:41:34.059 --> 00:41:37.320
had oil. Russia found oil in Baku in the Caspian

00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:40.579
Sea, but, you know. I suppose Venezuela by then.

00:41:40.699 --> 00:41:43.780
Yeah. But anyway. That would be the Rockefellers

00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:46.000
there. The main point just is that the oil market

00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:48.579
wasn't what it is, what we're used to now. Oh,

00:41:48.579 --> 00:41:51.340
the oil market. It was very different sources

00:41:51.340 --> 00:41:53.860
at the time. We will get into the oil market

00:41:53.860 --> 00:41:56.099
in subsequent episodes, but it's kind of like

00:41:56.099 --> 00:42:00.900
the oil market is nothing like it is today. It

00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:04.239
is absolutely nothing like it is today. One thing

00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:09.360
that we can talk about is the actual formal division

00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:14.579
of Persia, and this is accomplished by the Anglo

00:42:14.579 --> 00:42:17.059
-Russian Convention of 1907. Notice there's no

00:42:17.059 --> 00:42:20.320
Persia in that thing, in this treaty, because

00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:23.780
the Persians are not really a factor in determining

00:42:23.780 --> 00:42:25.860
the destiny of their country. They just live

00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:27.820
there. They just live there, and they're ready

00:42:27.820 --> 00:42:31.219
to be exploited. This is an agreement that has

00:42:31.219 --> 00:42:35.800
basically... agreed to between the British and

00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:37.139
the Russians. And the British and the Russians

00:42:37.139 --> 00:42:40.119
at the time, just to go into the bigger picture,

00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:44.639
they have basically resolved a lot of their differences

00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:46.780
in the 19th century, and they are working together

00:42:46.780 --> 00:42:51.050
to what would be called the Triple Entente. which

00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:53.710
is going to play a big role in World War I. So

00:42:53.710 --> 00:42:57.949
they're in a regular old love fest at this point.

00:42:58.070 --> 00:43:00.989
And so one of the things that is indicative of

00:43:00.989 --> 00:43:03.929
this is dividing Persia into two spheres. And

00:43:03.929 --> 00:43:05.590
I have in front of me a map of how they divided

00:43:05.590 --> 00:43:11.610
it. Yes. And we'll put this map in the image

00:43:11.610 --> 00:43:14.849
gallery for this series. But it's very interesting.

00:43:15.010 --> 00:43:17.789
Like southeastern Iran is considered the British

00:43:17.789 --> 00:43:20.010
sphere. So the British control what happens there.

00:43:22.090 --> 00:43:24.750
The pretty much the whole northern half of Iran

00:43:24.750 --> 00:43:28.260
is in the Russian sphere. And you wind up with

00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:30.139
this little trapezoid kind of in the middle,

00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:33.039
like the southwestern part of Iran and this kind

00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:35.400
of sliver going up towards Afghanistan to the

00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.500
east. Looks like one of our weird electoral districts

00:43:38.500 --> 00:43:40.860
that we draw nowadays here. That's a neutral

00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:44.780
zone. Not Persia. But it doesn't mean that the

00:43:44.780 --> 00:43:47.019
Persians get to run it. It just means that both

00:43:47.019 --> 00:43:48.739
the British and the Russians agree that they

00:43:48.739 --> 00:43:50.969
can compete with each other. in exploiting that

00:43:50.969 --> 00:43:56.699
part of Persia. So, you know, there isn't much

00:43:56.699 --> 00:43:58.719
Persia in this. There's just territory that Persians

00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:01.460
live in. And I need to look at the map, but I

00:44:01.460 --> 00:44:05.039
suspect it's because that part of the country

00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:11.389
has basically nothing in it. Okay, so having

00:44:11.389 --> 00:44:13.230
looked at the map now, Sharon, what do you make

00:44:13.230 --> 00:44:15.269
of these zones that they divided Iran up into?

00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:17.530
So the map looks a little different than what

00:44:17.530 --> 00:44:20.769
I thought it might look like because it is much

00:44:20.769 --> 00:44:24.969
more north -south. Russians definitely having

00:44:24.969 --> 00:44:27.969
the northern zone, the British having the southern

00:44:27.969 --> 00:44:32.949
zone closer to what is now Pakistan. And it leaves

00:44:32.949 --> 00:44:36.369
the part that is closest to the Persian Gulf

00:44:36.369 --> 00:44:40.550
to the Persians. But at the time... there really

00:44:40.550 --> 00:44:44.789
wasn't anything there. Now that area would be

00:44:44.789 --> 00:44:49.590
hugely important with Karg Island oil export

00:44:49.590 --> 00:44:53.730
facilities and the Bashir nuclear power plant

00:44:53.730 --> 00:44:56.869
and the Strait of Hormuz, which everybody is

00:44:56.869 --> 00:44:59.230
intimately familiar with right now. But at the

00:44:59.230 --> 00:45:02.650
time, there really wasn't anything there. It

00:45:02.650 --> 00:45:05.409
wasn't important. There were some Pearl fishermen

00:45:05.409 --> 00:45:10.170
and there were some other artisanal fishermen

00:45:10.170 --> 00:45:14.190
subsistence fishermen and that was basically

00:45:14.190 --> 00:45:18.449
it it wasn't anything economically important

00:45:18.449 --> 00:45:21.230
to these great powers so of course that's why

00:45:21.230 --> 00:45:26.309
they left it alone um it it it was not something

00:45:26.309 --> 00:45:30.889
that would really interest Russia or the British?

00:45:31.050 --> 00:45:33.449
They would have some influence, particularly

00:45:33.449 --> 00:45:35.550
if we're talking about certain types of industries

00:45:35.550 --> 00:45:37.849
that they've been granted concessions on, which

00:45:37.849 --> 00:45:40.570
we'll get into later, one in particular being

00:45:40.570 --> 00:45:43.809
the tobacco trade. I kind of suspect, looking

00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:45.909
at the map, that it has a lot more to do with

00:45:45.909 --> 00:45:48.690
just creating physical buffers, protecting their

00:45:48.690 --> 00:45:52.760
own territories. Russia and India from each other

00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:56.099
than it is about actual resources in Iran. Not

00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:57.940
that they don't matter. I'm sure that they also

00:45:57.940 --> 00:45:59.679
matter. There's money to be made there, I'm sure.

00:45:59.780 --> 00:46:02.139
But I don't think that's the main focus of what

00:46:02.139 --> 00:46:04.460
they're doing here. That's just my assumption.

00:46:04.739 --> 00:46:08.260
Yeah, the main focus is based on using this as

00:46:08.260 --> 00:46:11.219
not unlike Afghanistan. And that neutral zone

00:46:11.219 --> 00:46:13.039
in the middle is a buffer between their buffers.

00:46:13.099 --> 00:46:16.179
So they're kind of thinking that way, I think.

00:46:16.570 --> 00:46:20.550
This is not making the Cosiers very popular with

00:46:20.550 --> 00:46:24.369
several groups, and we will return again and

00:46:24.369 --> 00:46:27.469
again to these groups, and worth calling them

00:46:27.469 --> 00:46:31.969
out here. The urban merchant classes... This

00:46:31.969 --> 00:46:34.489
is not very popular, this whole approach about

00:46:34.489 --> 00:46:37.449
surrendering and making all these concessions

00:46:37.449 --> 00:46:39.369
and monopolies. This is not popular with them

00:46:39.369 --> 00:46:40.809
because it's getting in the way of their ability

00:46:40.809 --> 00:46:43.650
to make a living. They're constantly coming up

00:46:43.650 --> 00:46:47.250
against the brick wall of either British or Russian

00:46:47.250 --> 00:46:51.130
influence, and that's going to impact their ability

00:46:51.130 --> 00:46:56.070
to do things. Now, clerics also took a negative

00:46:56.070 --> 00:46:59.489
view about this influx of foreigners. flouting

00:46:59.489 --> 00:47:03.369
their national sovereignty in these territories

00:47:03.369 --> 00:47:08.210
and areas where they had concessions. And this

00:47:08.210 --> 00:47:13.429
is only causing unrest, as we will see, and it

00:47:13.429 --> 00:47:16.190
will happen again and again, as long as the Qajars

00:47:16.190 --> 00:47:18.630
are in power. So can I ask a question? And Sharon,

00:47:18.650 --> 00:47:20.530
maybe you can dive in on this one then. So if

00:47:20.530 --> 00:47:23.909
we look at, more broadly, Persian -Iranian history,

00:47:24.070 --> 00:47:25.949
they've been conquered by various people, like

00:47:25.949 --> 00:47:29.659
you were saying early on, right? how accepting

00:47:29.659 --> 00:47:31.699
have they ever been of that in their past? Has

00:47:31.699 --> 00:47:33.360
there always been unrest when they were under

00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:35.619
control of somebody? Did they tolerate it for

00:47:35.619 --> 00:47:38.059
a century or two here and there and then rise

00:47:38.059 --> 00:47:40.869
up? You know what I'm asking? Because like we

00:47:40.869 --> 00:47:43.309
said, they are a nation state. They have an identity

00:47:43.309 --> 00:47:46.519
distinct from their conquerors. I mean, would

00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:48.000
you characterize it over the years that they

00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.940
tend to put up with it or that they tend to fight

00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:53.079
against it? That's an interesting question. I'm

00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:57.900
not sure that there's... any one set answer i

00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:01.300
think it depends on who the conquerors were and

00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:05.579
the circumstances there were definitely times

00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:11.300
when it was a a bad a bad transition lots of

00:48:11.300 --> 00:48:14.380
slaughtering but they were eventually conquered

00:48:14.380 --> 00:48:19.639
and um and accepted their fate but then they

00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:25.269
absorbed parts of of the conquerors that worked

00:48:25.269 --> 00:48:27.670
for them. And then there were also times when

00:48:27.670 --> 00:48:31.670
the conquerors ended up accepting parts of the

00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:36.429
Persian culture or administration or government

00:48:36.429 --> 00:48:39.130
that worked for them. So it was an interesting

00:48:40.090 --> 00:48:43.369
interplay between them. But in this case, it

00:48:43.369 --> 00:48:46.289
was very much something that wasn't working for

00:48:46.289 --> 00:48:49.150
them. So no, they weren't going to just accept

00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:53.750
it. It was very much something where they were

00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:59.320
being humiliated, and their people weren't. thriving

00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.380
under this. So yeah, they were chafing under

00:49:02.380 --> 00:49:05.920
these things. We see examples in history of,

00:49:05.980 --> 00:49:07.940
say, when we talked about China, for example,

00:49:07.940 --> 00:49:10.599
right? China had a tendency to absorb its conquerors

00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:15.820
and signify them, make them Chinese, right? Iran,

00:49:15.820 --> 00:49:17.840
to some extent, did the same thing? Yes. Well,

00:49:17.900 --> 00:49:20.199
particularly with the Mongols. I mean, the Mongols

00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:24.480
were nomadic people. They come into these very

00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:27.360
well -appointed cities, and they discover how

00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:31.340
wonderful life can be being urbanized. And so

00:49:31.340 --> 00:49:34.460
they are totally seduced by the sort of soft

00:49:34.460 --> 00:49:38.840
living that Persia offered. So they start to

00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.409
become... Persianized. Persianized, Persianified.

00:49:42.409 --> 00:49:46.030
The Vikings did that in Normandy. Yes. The Norman

00:49:46.030 --> 00:49:47.909
French were actually Vikings. Yes. For example.

00:49:47.909 --> 00:49:50.190
So this happens in history. Yes. I'm just curious

00:49:50.190 --> 00:49:52.429
because I think maybe in this case, the era we're

00:49:52.429 --> 00:49:53.829
talking about here with the British and the Russians,

00:49:54.010 --> 00:49:58.199
there is no... There is no British or Russian

00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:01.519
absorption one way or the other. I don't think

00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:04.179
that they're becoming Iranified in any way, Persianified.

00:50:04.460 --> 00:50:06.760
Nor do I think the Persians are getting particularly

00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:10.860
excited about becoming Russianized or British

00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:13.139
in their culture either. So there you're going

00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:16.320
to get a lot of chafing. Absolutely. So you've

00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.469
kind of got like this imperial, these imperial

00:50:19.469 --> 00:50:43.260
enclaves that are existing in this period. One

00:50:43.260 --> 00:50:45.280
question we might want to ask ourselves, just

00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:48.260
given the nature of our podcast, is what is going

00:50:48.260 --> 00:50:50.219
on with the United States in the midst of all

00:50:50.219 --> 00:50:53.340
this? Now, as we mentioned earlier, there's not

00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:58.559
a lot of economic interest in Persia. There is

00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:01.280
some cultural interest, and it's kind of not

00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:05.239
unlike what we saw with the United States and

00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:07.980
China, where there's this sort of imaginary land

00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:13.400
called... persia that's distant and exotic um

00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:16.099
there's not any there's not much in the way of

00:51:16.099 --> 00:51:19.599
commercial activity uh the only way that the

00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:23.380
two sides ever interacted was in istanbul where

00:51:23.380 --> 00:51:26.159
they both had diplomatic relations and they u

00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:27.880
.s and persian representatives would meet up

00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:29.880
there and that's where they met for the first

00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:34.239
time constantinople at the time yes now one area

00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.659
and this is actually going to be a lot different

00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:40.840
than the experience that we had with American

00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:43.179
missionaries in China. American missionaries

00:51:43.179 --> 00:51:47.179
in Persia are actually viewed much more positively

00:51:47.179 --> 00:51:49.739
during this period because they're operating

00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:53.400
in the northwestern region of Persia. And this

00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:57.360
is where there are settlements of Armenian, Assyrian,

00:51:57.500 --> 00:52:00.420
and Chaldean Christians. As we said in the beginning,

00:52:01.059 --> 00:52:03.880
Persia's not just Persians, and not everybody

00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:07.960
who lives there is Iranian. And so... These American

00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.500
missionaries who are dominantly Presbyterian,

00:52:10.539 --> 00:52:14.119
they have learned of these Christian settlements,

00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:17.960
and they want to go and make them better Christians.

00:52:18.059 --> 00:52:20.679
They are not going in there to try to subvert

00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:24.300
Islam. They're going to reach out to other Christians.

00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:28.159
They're going to set up settlements in this Christianized

00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:32.139
part of Iran. and this is going to prove important

00:52:32.139 --> 00:52:34.760
in a number of ways. So you mentioned the China

00:52:34.760 --> 00:52:36.300
series, and for those who haven't listened to

00:52:36.300 --> 00:52:38.320
it yet, we should probably just briefly just

00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:41.500
note that what we discovered with the American

00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:43.519
missionary movement in China was that they were

00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:47.179
not at all interested in Chinese culture or anything

00:52:47.179 --> 00:52:49.630
having to do with... They were interested in

00:52:49.630 --> 00:52:51.389
subverting Chinese culture. Subverting Chinese

00:52:51.389 --> 00:52:54.710
culture to overlay an American Christian culture

00:52:54.710 --> 00:52:56.690
over it. They looked down on Chinese culture.

00:52:56.809 --> 00:52:59.829
Which tended, and yeah, they viewed it as a feat.

00:52:59.889 --> 00:53:01.829
This is profoundly different because you're going

00:53:01.829 --> 00:53:04.710
to minister to people who are already Christians.

00:53:05.369 --> 00:53:07.090
We're going to give you a better form of Christianity.

00:53:07.090 --> 00:53:08.530
And give you a better form of Christianity. But

00:53:08.530 --> 00:53:09.769
they're already Christians. You're not trying

00:53:09.769 --> 00:53:12.440
to force a new. a whole new relief system on

00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:14.280
them or anything like that. So it is profoundly

00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:15.260
different from the China experience. That is

00:53:15.260 --> 00:53:17.659
profoundly different. And then the other thing

00:53:17.659 --> 00:53:20.039
that's— Just a little clarification before you

00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:23.059
move on. You said not everybody was Iranian.

00:53:23.260 --> 00:53:25.320
I think what you meant was not everybody was

00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:28.380
Muslim. Wasn't Muslim. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:31.960
Yes, that was a misspeak on my part. In terms

00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:35.179
of what the missionaries are trying to do, they

00:53:35.179 --> 00:53:41.719
are also building schools. and hospitals and

00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:46.119
things that are actually there to benefit the

00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:48.519
people that are living there. Good works. Good

00:53:48.519 --> 00:53:52.460
works. Useful things. Yes. And so when the people

00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:54.559
of Persia are learning about these efforts by

00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:57.099
these Americans, the Americans are acquiring

00:53:57.099 --> 00:54:00.059
a better reputation than any other group of foreigners

00:54:00.059 --> 00:54:01.940
because they're doing this selflessly. This is

00:54:01.940 --> 00:54:04.159
not something that the state is sponsoring. This

00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:06.820
is something they're doing on their own. It doesn't

00:54:06.820 --> 00:54:11.059
have this sinister quality of trying to undermine

00:54:11.059 --> 00:54:16.070
sovereignty. This looks fully altruistic. There

00:54:16.070 --> 00:54:18.170
was no imperialistic quality to it whatsoever.

00:54:18.170 --> 00:54:21.170
And there's no attempt to exploit resources there.

00:54:22.389 --> 00:54:26.550
Diplomatically, this actually leads to the United

00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:29.869
States acquiring diplomatic relations with Persia

00:54:29.869 --> 00:54:31.570
because this was something that the Congress

00:54:31.570 --> 00:54:33.070
resisted. They didn't want to spend the money

00:54:33.070 --> 00:54:36.230
for it. It's $5 ,000 a year to support an embassy.

00:54:36.590 --> 00:54:39.070
They did not want to spend this. And they didn't

00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:41.590
see much point in having an embassy in Persia.

00:54:42.250 --> 00:54:45.969
So what happened, though... is that there were

00:54:45.969 --> 00:54:49.070
disturbances, there was unrest in the region,

00:54:49.230 --> 00:54:53.030
and as it turned out, one of the primary people

00:54:53.030 --> 00:54:58.769
who were in favor of establishing diplomatic

00:54:58.769 --> 00:55:01.829
relations was a guy named Rufus Dawes of Ohio,

00:55:01.929 --> 00:55:05.019
who was a congressman. And he had relatives who

00:55:05.019 --> 00:55:08.159
were missionaries. And he felt like there needed

00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.719
to be an American legation established to protect

00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:13.320
these missionaries in the midst of this instability.

00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:17.519
And he essentially just, you know, not unlike,

00:55:17.659 --> 00:55:19.739
let's just say, Thomas Massey, who's kind of

00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:22.599
like taking over the Congress here and putting

00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:24.719
forth his own vision for what he wanted to have

00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:27.739
happen. Dawes prevented the budget from being

00:55:27.739 --> 00:55:29.260
passed and said, we're not going to pass the

00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:32.570
budget unless. We establish a legation and we

00:55:32.570 --> 00:55:35.889
fund this. In 19th century terminology, there

00:55:35.889 --> 00:55:38.210
was a distinction between an embassy and a legation.

00:55:38.250 --> 00:55:41.489
An embassy was a higher status. Yes. A legation

00:55:41.489 --> 00:55:44.510
was a lower status diplomatic position. But it

00:55:44.510 --> 00:55:48.710
was quite common to have legations around the

00:55:48.710 --> 00:55:50.769
world in different countries. And they did carry

00:55:50.769 --> 00:55:53.269
out. It's kind of like it was a lesser function.

00:55:53.570 --> 00:55:56.590
Yes. It was lesser status for the country that

00:55:56.590 --> 00:55:58.469
you're representing or in the way you're representing

00:55:58.469 --> 00:56:00.789
yourself to them. But you're still doing a lot

00:56:00.789 --> 00:56:02.769
of the same things maybe that an embassy would

00:56:02.769 --> 00:56:07.150
do today. Yes. And we also had, you know, we

00:56:07.150 --> 00:56:10.489
would refer to our early ambassadors as ministers

00:56:10.489 --> 00:56:12.949
as opposed to ambassadors. Ambassadors had this

00:56:12.949 --> 00:56:17.449
kind of like imperial title to it. And so eventually

00:56:17.449 --> 00:56:20.190
we got the fact that if we're sending ministers

00:56:20.190 --> 00:56:23.079
over there, they're going to rank. behind ambassadors

00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.619
in diplomatic priority. So we decided, okay,

00:56:25.699 --> 00:56:28.340
so much for making a point about this. We're

00:56:28.340 --> 00:56:30.260
going to have ambassadors as well. Because a

00:56:30.260 --> 00:56:32.699
minister ran a legation. Yeah. And an ambassador

00:56:32.699 --> 00:56:34.820
ran an embassy. Yes. By the way, we insisted

00:56:34.820 --> 00:56:37.179
that the representatives that came to Washington,

00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:40.360
D .C. were ministers. Yes. They weren't ambassadors.

00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:42.139
Yes. We insisted on that in the 19th century.

00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:44.079
But anyway. Now, what year are we talking about

00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:46.619
that Dawes was doing this? This has actually

00:56:46.619 --> 00:56:55.840
happened in 1882. The bill, H .R. 6743, was signed

00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:58.340
into law by Chester Arthur, and this established

00:56:58.340 --> 00:57:01.480
a permanent U .S. legation in Iran. And I mention

00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:04.119
this because later on, as we all know, the embassy

00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:06.659
is going to play a huge role. The embassy is

00:57:06.659 --> 00:57:10.260
going to be a huge place for American interest.

00:57:10.579 --> 00:57:13.579
But at this point, at the initial stages, it

00:57:13.579 --> 00:57:17.260
just comes into being through the whim of a single

00:57:17.260 --> 00:57:19.599
congressman who knows how to work the system.

00:57:20.059 --> 00:57:22.360
And so when you're talking about the embassy

00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:24.019
becoming more important, you're talking about

00:57:24.019 --> 00:57:26.519
the period after World War II. After World War

00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:31.699
II. So Marshall, you mentioned earlier that this

00:57:31.699 --> 00:57:35.760
was viewed as an exotic land full of, what, magic

00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:39.099
carpets? Yeah, that's a good question, I think,

00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:41.980
because we talked about in our China series about

00:57:41.980 --> 00:57:44.460
how in the period of Ben Franklin, the early

00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:46.900
U .S. Republic, how Ben Franklin had a view of

00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:49.920
China as being this place of great scholarship

00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:52.639
and morality. which is kind of an imaginary place.

00:57:52.900 --> 00:57:56.079
They got their impressions from China, the stuff

00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:58.239
you eat off of, not the country. Yeah, exactly.

00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:03.320
So how does that compare with Iran? And what

00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:06.300
did Americans think of Iran at the time? Well,

00:58:06.340 --> 00:58:09.679
people have this idea, as you said, that Iran

00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:13.780
and the whole Middle East are this very exotic

00:58:13.780 --> 00:58:20.699
place. It isn't actually as unfamiliar to Westerners

00:58:20.699 --> 00:58:23.579
as we tend to think it is. We mentioned earlier

00:58:23.579 --> 00:58:26.139
Cyrus the Great is in the Bible, Darius is in

00:58:26.139 --> 00:58:28.980
the Bible. If you go back and look at the Nativity

00:58:28.980 --> 00:58:32.000
story, the three wise men, the Magi from the

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:34.500
East, those Magi from the East, they're actually

00:58:34.500 --> 00:58:39.380
coming from Persia. So Persia isn't as unfamiliar

00:58:39.380 --> 00:58:57.969
to us as we tend to think that it is. Get back

00:58:57.969 --> 00:59:02.230
to what's going on in the late 19th century and

00:59:02.230 --> 00:59:06.889
the exploitation of the foreigners and the ruling

00:59:06.889 --> 00:59:13.170
Qajar dynasty. Things reach an absolute nadir

00:59:13.170 --> 00:59:19.590
in 1890 when Nasser al -Din Shah Qajar granted

00:59:19.590 --> 00:59:24.469
the British a 50 -year monopoly on the sale and

00:59:24.469 --> 00:59:28.280
export of Persian tobacco. So this is clearly

00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:30.360
threatening the livelihoods of Persian farmers

00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:35.559
and merchants. Sharon, this proves to be like

00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:39.579
a watershed moment for the dynasty and also for

00:59:39.579 --> 00:59:43.000
Persia, doesn't it? Yes. It was this combination

00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:47.599
of merchants, intellectuals, and Shia clergy

00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:52.039
that formed the nucleus of this opposition. The

00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:56.699
leading Shia clergy pronounced a... fatwa forbidding

00:59:56.699 --> 01:00:01.260
the use of tobacco until the concession was canceled

01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:04.900
and all throughout the country and this is a

01:00:04.900 --> 01:00:08.300
country that was renowned for its love of tobacco

01:00:08.300 --> 01:00:13.599
people stopped smoking even within the shah's

01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:17.780
household including members of the shah's harem

01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:22.280
all stopped smoking This boycott created a national

01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:26.679
resistance along with disturbances inside Tehran.

01:00:27.019 --> 01:00:29.860
And the Shah eventually was forced to cancel

01:00:29.860 --> 01:00:35.039
the concession in January of 1892. So a two -year

01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:40.619
struggle emerges over this that kind of erodes

01:00:40.619 --> 01:00:43.219
or cuts into... He's actually having to make

01:00:43.219 --> 01:00:46.719
concessions to this group of people out in the

01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:51.139
streets here. This is a really important concept.

01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:54.300
The clergy, the merchants, the intellectuals

01:00:54.300 --> 01:00:57.960
provided important leadership and organizational

01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:01.750
networks. But it's this mass... participation

01:01:01.750 --> 01:01:06.289
that turned opposition into power from the tobacco

01:01:06.289 --> 01:01:11.170
farmers to the consumers, to workers, to other

01:01:11.170 --> 01:01:13.909
demonstrators that you might see in later movements.

01:01:14.070 --> 01:01:16.869
You see that pattern again and again in Iran,

01:01:17.110 --> 01:01:20.750
really different groups of people coalescing

01:01:20.750 --> 01:01:24.050
around a common cause. And when that happens,

01:01:24.210 --> 01:01:27.610
they can put enormous pressure on the government

01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:31.750
for change. And so, and I mean, this is something,

01:01:31.829 --> 01:01:37.989
but it is actually a process that people from

01:01:37.989 --> 01:01:40.389
the outside need to kind of understand that dynamic.

01:01:41.070 --> 01:01:43.690
It's not something that works like a light switch.

01:01:43.769 --> 01:01:46.409
It's something that kind of like gradually evolves

01:01:46.409 --> 01:01:49.030
over time. Would that be a fair characterization?

01:01:49.590 --> 01:01:52.150
Absolutely. They have to work through their networks.

01:01:52.230 --> 01:01:56.829
The clergy have their networks through. mosque

01:01:56.829 --> 01:02:01.309
and through the schools the merchants have their

01:02:01.309 --> 01:02:04.889
networks through the bazaars and through the

01:02:04.889 --> 01:02:09.409
guilds and then in this case you have the intellectuals

01:02:09.409 --> 01:02:12.769
who in their networks through universities and

01:02:12.769 --> 01:02:18.190
other forms but They have to build a groundswell

01:02:18.190 --> 01:02:22.010
throughout the public. And it's once you get

01:02:22.010 --> 01:02:26.690
that coalescing throughout the entire population,

01:02:26.929 --> 01:02:30.389
that's when it can really take off. And it takes

01:02:30.389 --> 01:02:34.309
time. Even now, we're used to things happening

01:02:34.309 --> 01:02:39.010
so much faster now, but it still takes time to

01:02:39.010 --> 01:02:44.170
get. that groundswell and make things happen

01:02:44.170 --> 01:02:47.889
to a point where the government can react. And

01:02:47.889 --> 01:02:51.039
you mentioned a fatwa? So I just think, let's

01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:52.800
explain that to the listeners for a second before

01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:55.400
we go on. So I think a lot of listeners will

01:02:55.400 --> 01:02:57.900
equate a fatwa with what the Ayatollah is saying,

01:02:57.980 --> 01:03:00.099
that Salman Rushdie has to be killed, and that's

01:03:00.099 --> 01:03:01.860
pretty much what they think a fatwa is, but that's

01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:04.579
not, that's a type of fatwa, but a fatwa is a

01:03:04.579 --> 01:03:07.099
broader concept. It's not always, yes, sorry,

01:03:07.219 --> 01:03:10.719
it's not always a violent proclamation, but it

01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:14.650
is a religious proclamation. Not unlike, say,

01:03:14.690 --> 01:03:17.869
a homily or something like that in, say, a Christian

01:03:17.869 --> 01:03:22.329
church where they're kind of, the clergy is attempting

01:03:22.329 --> 01:03:25.530
to provide guidance to what would be a moral

01:03:25.530 --> 01:03:29.159
stance on a particular issue. Correct. It's saying,

01:03:29.380 --> 01:03:33.960
this is what we are thinking on this particular

01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:36.980
issue, and this is the guidance that we're putting

01:03:36.980 --> 01:03:39.760
forth, and this is how we think that you should

01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:43.199
act in accordance with this particular issue.

01:03:43.460 --> 01:03:46.099
Like a circular, or a secular, a secular in the

01:03:46.099 --> 01:03:49.159
Catholic Church. Or a capable. Yes. Yeah, and

01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:51.119
I get the impression it's considered more of

01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:53.039
an order than a suggestion, though, isn't it?

01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:55.400
Or at least to some... Muslims it is, very much

01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:57.360
how some Catholics will bill a papal bull as

01:03:57.360 --> 01:03:59.380
an order. Correct, yeah. I suppose it depends

01:03:59.380 --> 01:04:04.099
on the person. It kind of depends on how devout

01:04:04.099 --> 01:04:08.400
they are in the particular type of Muslim that

01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:10.920
they are. Again, I'm not an Islamic scholar,

01:04:10.980 --> 01:04:13.059
so I'm sure somebody can come back and correct

01:04:13.059 --> 01:04:14.880
me on this. Yeah, but I'm sure that's pretty

01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:17.300
fair. That's how human beings work. And I mean,

01:04:17.300 --> 01:04:19.800
we should also... Think about this, because,

01:04:19.940 --> 01:04:24.000
you know, given how people perceive Iran, the

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:27.460
clergy at this point, at least the clergy, and

01:04:27.460 --> 01:04:30.199
it's not universal, but the clergy that's actually

01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:32.940
supporting the boycott, they're not actually

01:04:32.940 --> 01:04:36.360
looking to achieve supreme power here. Because

01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.840
I think people, you know, given what happens

01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:41.820
in 79, they might ascribe some sort of sinister

01:04:41.820 --> 01:04:49.599
purpose behind the fatwa. for their perceived

01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:53.519
good of the nation, which they equate. There's

01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:56.179
a consensus of opinion of what is good of the

01:04:56.179 --> 01:04:59.280
nation, and that is to kind of oppose this sort

01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:02.099
of foreign presence that's there. So it's a nationalistic

01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:05.179
impulse more than a religious one. Yes. But it's

01:05:05.179 --> 01:05:07.400
coming from the religious leadership and community.

01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:12.019
Is that the way to think of it? Yes. And here's

01:05:12.019 --> 01:05:15.619
where it gets a little bit complicated. While

01:05:15.619 --> 01:05:19.840
they are not looking to establish power, as I

01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:23.300
mentioned earlier, they were the state religion.

01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:26.480
Yes. So they did have a certain amount of power.

01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:29.059
Yes, as well. But I mean, they're not trying

01:05:29.059 --> 01:05:31.860
to establish a theocratic state by this. Correct,

01:05:31.860 --> 01:05:33.840
correct. You know, and what we're going to see

01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:36.780
them actually support is something quite the

01:05:36.780 --> 01:05:41.719
contrary in the next... phase of this movement

01:05:41.719 --> 01:05:46.110
that they've started. Folks, we have a new sponsor,

01:05:46.289 --> 01:05:49.789
and we want to welcome them. Thumb Run Farm is

01:05:49.789 --> 01:05:52.809
a Virginia -based provider of locally raised,

01:05:53.050 --> 01:05:56.690
high -quality beef sold in wholes, halves, and

01:05:56.690 --> 01:06:00.190
quarters. The beef is certified natural, meaning

01:06:00.190 --> 01:06:03.030
that no antibiotics or hormones are ever used

01:06:03.030 --> 01:06:06.110
in the raising of the cows. Thumb Run Farm will

01:06:06.110 --> 01:06:18.250
deliver to you farm -to -table So the coalition

01:06:18.250 --> 01:06:21.889
that formed up as a result of the tobacco boycott

01:06:21.889 --> 01:06:25.590
would spring into action later in the period

01:06:25.590 --> 01:06:29.829
of 1905 to 1911 as part of the constitutional

01:06:29.829 --> 01:06:33.650
revolution of 1905 to 1911. And this is the first

01:06:33.650 --> 01:06:38.230
major attempt to convert Persia from an autocratic

01:06:38.230 --> 01:06:41.500
monarchy to a constitutional state governed by

01:06:41.500 --> 01:06:44.460
laws and elected parliament. So connect the dots

01:06:44.460 --> 01:06:47.539
for me then, though. So 1890 is when the boycott

01:06:47.539 --> 01:06:51.519
starts? Yes, and it runs until 1892. Okay, so

01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:53.460
that ran for a couple of years. So then there's

01:06:53.460 --> 01:06:56.179
another 13 years or so until the constitutional.

01:06:56.199 --> 01:07:00.440
And it is a process. It is an absolute process

01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:04.400
that they actually have. This coalition that

01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:10.010
we saw form. As part of the tobacco boycott from

01:07:10.010 --> 01:07:15.429
1890 to 1892, we will see spring into action

01:07:15.429 --> 01:07:19.250
after a period of discontent with the Qajars

01:07:19.250 --> 01:07:23.010
with what later became known as the Constitutional

01:07:23.010 --> 01:07:27.030
Revolution of 1905 to 1911. And this is the first

01:07:27.030 --> 01:07:29.230
major attempt to convert Persia from an autocratic

01:07:29.230 --> 01:07:32.690
monarchy to a constitutional state governed by

01:07:32.690 --> 01:07:37.599
laws and elected parliament. This goal of creating

01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:41.260
kind of a constitutional state is going to be

01:07:41.260 --> 01:07:44.599
a major struggle and a major preoccupation with

01:07:44.599 --> 01:07:48.460
Persia and later Iran throughout most of the

01:07:48.460 --> 01:07:53.039
20th century. The initial goal of the Clerical,

01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:55.280
Intellectual, and Merchant Coalition, which I'm

01:07:55.280 --> 01:07:59.239
going to refer as the coalition, was the 1905

01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:04.210
demand for a parliament. Or this is called the

01:08:04.210 --> 01:08:07.349
sitting room or the chamber is what that actually

01:08:07.349 --> 01:08:09.710
means. But that's the name for their parliament.

01:08:09.889 --> 01:08:11.690
That's the name for their parliament, but that's

01:08:11.690 --> 01:08:14.809
where the word comes from. This is established

01:08:14.809 --> 01:08:21.550
in August 1905 by Mosafir ad -Din Shah. This

01:08:21.550 --> 01:08:23.630
established the fundamental laws that led to

01:08:23.630 --> 01:08:26.470
the creation of a constitutional monarchy. It

01:08:26.470 --> 01:08:29.069
established a separation of power and limits

01:08:29.069 --> 01:08:33.470
on royal authority. These decrees also provided

01:08:33.470 --> 01:08:35.930
a supervisory role for the clergy, but we'll

01:08:35.930 --> 01:08:40.470
talk about that later. And while we're referring

01:08:40.470 --> 01:08:44.770
to the clerics, the intellectuals, and the merchants,

01:08:44.810 --> 01:08:49.029
talking about the clerics in particular, it is

01:08:49.029 --> 01:08:54.029
rather important to distinguish that not... all

01:08:54.029 --> 01:08:59.789
of them agreed that this is the way to move forward.

01:09:00.430 --> 01:09:04.529
Some of them thought differently. Much like in

01:09:04.529 --> 01:09:07.529
the U .S., there are different schools of thought

01:09:07.529 --> 01:09:12.210
between different religious leaders in Iran then

01:09:12.210 --> 01:09:16.050
and now. There were different schools of thought

01:09:16.050 --> 01:09:19.869
about how religion should interact with the government.

01:09:20.329 --> 01:09:22.689
And some of these people are actually... supporting

01:09:22.689 --> 01:09:26.229
the Qajars. Exactly. You know, um, now this is

01:09:26.229 --> 01:09:29.890
Iran's first, um, parliament, first parliament.

01:09:29.909 --> 01:09:34.020
And it's long. History. Yes. So we're looking

01:09:34.020 --> 01:09:39.380
at kind of middle class values coming up and

01:09:39.380 --> 01:09:42.000
kind of driving this desire. This is a pretty

01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:44.500
huge change then. Yes. And it just happens kind

01:09:44.500 --> 01:09:46.260
of in the 1890s and the early, very beginning

01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:47.920
of the 1900s. But they're getting exposed to

01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:51.600
Western influences. I mean, they are seeing things

01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:53.300
that are happening here. They're seeing things

01:09:53.300 --> 01:09:55.380
happening in Europe. They're seeing developments

01:09:55.380 --> 01:09:57.579
in other countries that are kind of embracing

01:09:57.579 --> 01:10:00.380
this kind of parliamentary system. And they're

01:10:00.380 --> 01:10:02.880
admiring it. And they're admiring it. And particularly

01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:04.659
if you're sick and tired of your country being

01:10:04.659 --> 01:10:08.539
sold out from under you, this is a way of developing

01:10:08.539 --> 01:10:14.079
kind of influence and power by intellectuals,

01:10:14.079 --> 01:10:18.159
clerics, and merchants. And the merchants, this

01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:21.520
is actually hurting their bottom line. And so

01:10:21.520 --> 01:10:23.199
they're seeing this as a way of putting some

01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:28.300
sort of reins on royal authority, which is not

01:10:28.300 --> 01:10:31.630
working. In their best interest. And out of touch

01:10:31.630 --> 01:10:34.710
leadership. Sounds kind of familiar to me. It

01:10:34.710 --> 01:10:37.069
sounds very familiar to me. Just trying to live

01:10:37.069 --> 01:10:39.909
lavishly. Live lavishly with, you know. Selling

01:10:39.909 --> 01:10:41.789
the country out in order to do so. Yes. Anyway,

01:10:41.869 --> 01:10:45.390
I digress. You digress, but the point is a good

01:10:45.390 --> 01:10:48.529
one. You know, and it kind of might explain some

01:10:48.529 --> 01:10:51.390
dynamics that we see elsewhere. So as they got

01:10:51.390 --> 01:10:52.890
sick of it, at least some people decided that

01:10:52.890 --> 01:10:54.649
the way to do it was to emulate the West and

01:10:54.649 --> 01:10:56.899
have a. a parliament, a modulus for the first

01:10:56.899 --> 01:11:00.890
time. Yes. And they succeeded. For the time being.

01:11:00.890 --> 01:11:03.810
For the time being. Because what happened is

01:11:03.810 --> 01:11:10.529
after Mosafur's death in 1908, his successor,

01:11:10.869 --> 01:11:14.890
Muhammad Ali, attempted to overturn these measures

01:11:14.890 --> 01:11:18.430
with assistance from guess who? The Russians.

01:11:18.989 --> 01:11:23.350
This involves bombarding the parliament, invading

01:11:23.350 --> 01:11:25.310
the parliament, and leading the parliament to

01:11:25.310 --> 01:11:30.529
run off from Tehran to Breeze in the northwestern

01:11:30.529 --> 01:11:33.090
part of Persia. And to show you how influential

01:11:33.090 --> 01:11:35.170
the Russians were, at least in their sphere in

01:11:35.170 --> 01:11:37.710
Iran, there actually was a military unit called

01:11:37.710 --> 01:11:42.449
the Persian Cossacks. Yes. Who were modeled on...

01:11:42.649 --> 01:11:46.550
the Don Cossacks, the nomadic horse people of

01:11:46.550 --> 01:11:50.289
Central Asia who had a long history fighting

01:11:50.289 --> 01:11:52.869
in the Russian, Imperial Russian Army. This was

01:11:52.869 --> 01:11:57.029
actually a military unit regiment modeled on

01:11:57.029 --> 01:12:01.079
the Don Cossacks Imperial Russian Army units

01:12:01.079 --> 01:12:05.220
made up of, at first it was... Caucasians. That

01:12:05.220 --> 01:12:06.939
doesn't mean white people in this context. It

01:12:06.939 --> 01:12:09.460
means people from the Caucasus. First it was

01:12:09.460 --> 01:12:11.060
made up of them, but then it was one of being

01:12:11.060 --> 01:12:13.399
ethnic Iranians or Persians later too were part

01:12:13.399 --> 01:12:15.119
of this. And they actually were involved in this

01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:18.560
fighting on behalf of the Russians. Yes. They

01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:22.020
are the enemies. The Cossacks are definitely

01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:23.939
the enemies. Even though they're not Russians.

01:12:24.180 --> 01:12:30.159
Yes. This is going to lead us into, since we're

01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:33.949
talking about Tabriz here, The Russians are definitely

01:12:33.949 --> 01:12:36.550
supporting it. They're using these Persian Cossack

01:12:36.550 --> 01:12:39.829
troops. So where are the Americans in all of

01:12:39.829 --> 01:12:43.310
this? So the first American hero to the Persians,

01:12:43.329 --> 01:12:46.310
and he is still a hero, is a guy named Howard

01:12:46.310 --> 01:12:49.069
Baskerville. And he has nothing to do with the

01:12:49.069 --> 01:12:51.909
hounds or anything like that. He is actually

01:12:51.909 --> 01:12:56.109
from Nebraska, from the Midwest. He had become

01:12:56.109 --> 01:13:01.510
a missionary. He came out as a missionary to

01:13:01.510 --> 01:13:03.029
one of these schools that the missionaries had

01:13:03.029 --> 01:13:09.789
established in northwestern Persia, and he's

01:13:09.789 --> 01:13:13.050
teaching history, science, and English at the

01:13:13.050 --> 01:13:15.770
Presbyterian American Memorial School in Tabriz.

01:13:16.189 --> 01:13:19.829
So as the Shah and his Russian allies are attempting

01:13:19.829 --> 01:13:22.909
to lay siege to Tabriz, Baskerville decides that

01:13:22.909 --> 01:13:25.750
he's going to support the anti -Shah constitutional

01:13:25.750 --> 01:13:30.130
troops. And he had some military training, which

01:13:30.130 --> 01:13:32.939
was probably more than... A lot of people in

01:13:32.939 --> 01:13:34.899
Tabriz had, a lot of people who were involved

01:13:34.899 --> 01:13:38.180
in the constitutional movement. And his first

01:13:38.180 --> 01:13:41.659
act is to actually train forces that are opposing

01:13:41.659 --> 01:13:44.260
the Shah's Persian Cossack troops. Now, the United

01:13:44.260 --> 01:13:46.880
States government was mad at him. Yes. Because

01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:49.220
the United States officially was neutral in this

01:13:49.220 --> 01:13:51.739
conflict and didn't want to get involved. And

01:13:51.739 --> 01:13:53.779
as an American, him getting unofficially involved

01:13:53.779 --> 01:13:57.159
was seen as a diplomatic problem. He saw this

01:13:57.159 --> 01:14:02.109
as obedience to a higher authority. He had very

01:14:02.109 --> 01:14:04.069
good relations. He was probably like everybody's

01:14:04.069 --> 01:14:06.569
favorite teacher at the school there because

01:14:06.569 --> 01:14:09.489
he would interact with his students. And these

01:14:09.489 --> 01:14:12.390
interactions raised his consciousness about what

01:14:12.390 --> 01:14:15.189
was actually happening in Persia. And as a result,

01:14:15.210 --> 01:14:17.590
he wants to be part of this. He sees this as

01:14:17.590 --> 01:14:21.489
a moral struggle which someone as a missionary

01:14:21.489 --> 01:14:25.109
would view the world in. strictly moral terms.

01:14:25.529 --> 01:14:27.789
But also he's an American missionary. Yes. And

01:14:27.789 --> 01:14:30.350
he also seems to see this in a similar context

01:14:30.350 --> 01:14:33.010
to the American Revolution. He does. He most

01:14:33.010 --> 01:14:35.449
definitely does. Overthrowing an autocrat, having

01:14:35.449 --> 01:14:37.310
a constitution, these types of things appeals

01:14:37.310 --> 01:14:39.409
to him as an American, not just as a missionary.

01:14:40.329 --> 01:14:43.229
And he would tell the people that he was leading

01:14:43.229 --> 01:14:44.770
or the people in the school and such, he would

01:14:44.770 --> 01:14:46.449
tell them stories about American Revolutionary

01:14:46.449 --> 01:14:50.689
figures as a way of inspiring them. Yes. Definitely.

01:14:50.689 --> 01:14:53.550
Now, in addition to training, Baskerville eventually

01:14:53.550 --> 01:14:58.229
takes up arms to defend Tabriz, and he would

01:14:58.229 --> 01:15:02.289
go out and conduct raids to take food and medicine

01:15:02.289 --> 01:15:05.489
from these Cossack troops. Now, he was killed

01:15:05.489 --> 01:15:08.510
during one of these raids, and he is kind of

01:15:08.510 --> 01:15:11.649
remembered today as the Lafayette of the Iranian

01:15:11.649 --> 01:15:14.649
Constitutional Convention. He was trying to actually

01:15:14.649 --> 01:15:17.029
lift the siege. Yes, he was. He had higher ambitions

01:15:17.029 --> 01:15:20.109
than raiding. Yeah. But it was to allow them

01:15:20.109 --> 01:15:22.649
to survive the siege. Yeah. And it was a bit

01:15:22.649 --> 01:15:24.649
of an amateur hour thing on his part. Like, not

01:15:24.649 --> 01:15:26.529
everybody he asked to show up showed up. Yeah.

01:15:26.550 --> 01:15:28.449
It was kind of a problem. And he went out and

01:15:28.449 --> 01:15:30.550
he pretty quickly got shot and killed by a sniper.

01:15:30.689 --> 01:15:33.329
But you can't blame him for trying. No. And in

01:15:33.329 --> 01:15:35.609
fact, like you said, he's still venerated today

01:15:35.609 --> 01:15:42.310
in Iran. Yes. His tomb is in Tabriz. And it's

01:15:42.310 --> 01:15:46.039
a pilgrimage site for Iranians. interested in

01:15:46.039 --> 01:15:48.659
looking at their heritage and this is in 1909

01:15:48.659 --> 01:15:51.220
that he was yes killed yes i think i think he

01:15:51.220 --> 01:15:53.220
was in iran for like two years or so yes two

01:15:53.220 --> 01:15:56.539
years there's a very good book about him which

01:15:56.539 --> 01:16:00.359
i'll which i'll reference in in in the site because

01:16:00.359 --> 01:16:03.880
i think it's it's a story that a lot of americans

01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:05.960
don't understand that there is actually an american

01:16:05.960 --> 01:16:12.859
who has been raided to this day by And his tomb

01:16:12.859 --> 01:16:16.880
is very much a point that people will go and

01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:19.640
visit, not unlike, say, going and visiting Grant's

01:16:19.640 --> 01:16:21.619
tomb or something. There's much to say about

01:16:21.619 --> 01:16:24.260
what Iranians think of Americans, which we'll

01:16:24.260 --> 01:16:28.260
do in the future in a later episode. What happens

01:16:28.260 --> 01:16:31.340
as a result of this siege of Tabriz is that there

01:16:31.340 --> 01:16:34.899
is actually a kind of, leads to a groundswell

01:16:34.899 --> 01:16:38.140
of support throughout the country and other cities.

01:16:39.539 --> 01:16:41.920
I think cities is kind of an interesting thing

01:16:41.920 --> 01:16:43.739
because we're seeing that's where the support

01:16:43.739 --> 01:16:46.800
for this is coming from. This is where the sort

01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:50.979
of backbone of the coalition is living. And this

01:16:50.979 --> 01:16:54.380
is where we're actually seeing support grow for

01:16:54.380 --> 01:16:56.779
the Constitutional Convention. And this leads

01:16:56.779 --> 01:17:01.300
to Muhammad Ali being forced to abdicate. This

01:17:01.300 --> 01:17:03.079
is not the last that we'll see of him, though.

01:17:06.350 --> 01:17:11.350
The second person of note who is an American.

01:17:11.939 --> 01:17:17.159
Ashley has an even somewhat different but still

01:17:17.159 --> 01:17:20.460
interesting background, and it kind of shows

01:17:20.460 --> 01:17:25.899
a lot about the dynamics of how Americans are

01:17:25.899 --> 01:17:29.560
being perceived by the Persians and by this reform

01:17:29.560 --> 01:17:33.630
coalition effort. One of the biggest problems

01:17:33.630 --> 01:17:37.250
that the constitutional revolutionaries are facing

01:17:37.250 --> 01:17:43.970
is funding and the economy. and how to realize

01:17:43.970 --> 01:17:48.520
revenue properly. Because of the Causers' habits

01:17:48.520 --> 01:17:52.220
of extravagance and corruption, finances for

01:17:52.220 --> 01:17:55.439
the state itself are on a kind of shaky basis.

01:17:56.119 --> 01:17:59.779
And so Taft is actually approached to recommend

01:17:59.779 --> 01:18:04.479
somebody to assist. And here we see an old colleague

01:18:04.479 --> 01:18:07.619
of his from the Philippines. He's a native of

01:18:07.619 --> 01:18:11.170
D .C. His name is William Morgan Schuster. And

01:18:11.170 --> 01:18:13.270
Schuster's not a U .S. representative. He is

01:18:13.270 --> 01:18:16.569
actually hired by the parliament to collect revenue,

01:18:16.770 --> 01:18:19.390
to come up with a way of collecting revenue for

01:18:19.390 --> 01:18:22.010
the Persian central government. He was the treasurer

01:18:22.010 --> 01:18:25.329
general of Persia. Yes, he was. And so what he

01:18:25.329 --> 01:18:29.529
does is he actually creates a kind of group of

01:18:29.529 --> 01:18:32.890
about 12 ,000 people to go out and actually collect

01:18:32.890 --> 01:18:37.069
taxes, collect duties, collect import -export

01:18:37.069 --> 01:18:41.060
fees, etc., which was fairly efficient. This

01:18:41.060 --> 01:18:44.600
was a new thing. Efficiency in government was

01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:48.140
a new thing for the Khashoggi. This did not go

01:18:48.140 --> 01:18:50.960
over well with the Russians at all, and they

01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:54.180
were furious about this. I'm just going to make

01:18:54.180 --> 01:18:57.960
an observation here that Russians have a tendency

01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:02.680
to like to have incompetent governments. or failed

01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:04.939
states on their borders. And they will go to

01:19:04.939 --> 01:19:07.000
any lengths to kind of promote this. We see this

01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:09.439
in the 18th century with Poland. We see it in

01:19:09.439 --> 01:19:11.880
the 21st century. The second Ukraine decided

01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:13.460
that they were going to try to get their act

01:19:13.460 --> 01:19:16.539
together, it's time to invade them because having

01:19:16.539 --> 01:19:19.479
a competent government, an independent government...

01:19:19.949 --> 01:19:22.869
in ukraine and the same is true here in the early

01:19:22.869 --> 01:19:25.689
20th century with persia the russians are trying

01:19:25.689 --> 01:19:28.529
to sabotage this because they see them as if

01:19:28.529 --> 01:19:30.550
we can keep them weak and we can keep that we

01:19:30.550 --> 01:19:33.710
can continue to exploit them fairly easily also

01:19:33.710 --> 01:19:36.550
they can't invade us or anything yes yes our

01:19:36.550 --> 01:19:37.949
border is safer that'd be the way they would

01:19:37.949 --> 01:19:41.289
think about it too yes and so schuster's big

01:19:41.289 --> 01:19:46.020
big uh offense was to try and actually put in

01:19:46.020 --> 01:19:48.899
an efficient means of collecting revenue in what

01:19:48.899 --> 01:19:52.199
the Russians regarded as their territory within

01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:56.779
Persia. And this led to the Russians actually

01:19:56.779 --> 01:20:00.119
landing troops in Bandar Azari and demanding

01:20:00.119 --> 01:20:03.399
a formal apology for the Persians actually exercising

01:20:03.399 --> 01:20:06.479
sovereignty in their own country. In Bandar Azari

01:20:06.479 --> 01:20:11.720
being on the Caspian. Yes, yes. Schuster's what

01:20:11.720 --> 01:20:15.100
was called, it was called the gendarmerie, which

01:20:15.100 --> 01:20:18.079
was going around collecting taxes. The Russians

01:20:18.079 --> 01:20:21.899
just did not like this sudden exercise of sovereignty.

01:20:22.319 --> 01:20:25.359
And so they demanded that Schuster be expelled

01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:29.659
from the country. And they even supported a mysterious

01:20:29.659 --> 01:20:34.079
invasion from Muhammad Ali, who had been deposed.

01:20:34.489 --> 01:20:37.949
and had been pro -Russian. He added an unsuccessful

01:20:37.949 --> 01:20:41.670
invasion from his place of exile in Russia. Again,

01:20:42.210 --> 01:20:44.930
the Russians will take these guys in and kind

01:20:44.930 --> 01:20:49.029
of try to use them to exercise political control

01:20:49.029 --> 01:20:52.449
within countries. This is very much part of their

01:20:52.449 --> 01:20:54.970
playbook here. The Russians claim that by trying

01:20:54.970 --> 01:21:00.029
to collect taxes in their zone of Persia. that

01:21:00.029 --> 01:21:02.550
Schuster had violated the 1907 Anglo -Russian

01:21:02.550 --> 01:21:05.289
Convention, which that was their argument. Well,

01:21:05.369 --> 01:21:07.350
that was kind of like something that was imposed

01:21:07.350 --> 01:21:08.970
upon Persia as well. Well, yes, but that was

01:21:08.970 --> 01:21:11.090
the Russian argument. And apparently the British

01:21:11.090 --> 01:21:13.029
agreed because the British and Russians both

01:21:13.029 --> 01:21:16.779
put diplomatic pressure on the regime to fire

01:21:16.779 --> 01:21:20.899
Schuster. Yes. Schuster was out after nine months.

01:21:21.039 --> 01:21:25.439
December 1911, he was kicked out. And so he went

01:21:25.439 --> 01:21:30.619
on to basically be... He lived until like the

01:21:30.619 --> 01:21:35.619
1960s, and he was an unmitigated critic of the

01:21:35.619 --> 01:21:39.760
kind of Qajar dynamic here and the foreign influence

01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:42.819
in Persia. He died in 1960 at the age of 83.

01:21:43.199 --> 01:21:47.489
Yes. He wrote a book about it. Yes, he did. And

01:21:47.489 --> 01:21:49.970
he actually went on the lecture circuit as well.

01:21:50.090 --> 01:21:51.989
The Strangling of Persia. The Strangling of Persia.

01:21:51.989 --> 01:21:53.689
Which apparently is quite a famous book on the

01:21:53.689 --> 01:21:56.350
topic. Yes. And I mean, that was probably...

01:21:56.789 --> 01:21:59.369
not unlike other books written by people who

01:21:59.369 --> 01:22:01.710
had had experience in countries, it was probably

01:22:01.710 --> 01:22:04.270
the only game in town for somebody who was interested

01:22:04.270 --> 01:22:05.909
in Persia. If you wanted to read about it, you'd

01:22:05.909 --> 01:22:08.949
probably have very little to choose from other

01:22:08.949 --> 01:22:10.970
than a book from Schuster here. The Strangling

01:22:10.970 --> 01:22:12.710
of Persia has its own Wikipedia article. If you

01:22:12.710 --> 01:22:15.069
want to look it up, you can read about the book.

01:22:15.289 --> 01:22:19.949
Oh, I did not know that. There you go. To move

01:22:19.949 --> 01:22:23.869
on here, probably the biggest catastrophe to

01:22:23.869 --> 01:22:28.460
happen, and this is kind of like, The period

01:22:28.460 --> 01:22:34.159
around World War I is probably the worst period

01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:38.880
of Qajar rule during the entire period. And there

01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:42.359
is a whole series of disasters that affect Persia.

01:22:42.420 --> 01:22:45.239
And that's saying something. Yes. Yeah. I mean,

01:22:45.260 --> 01:22:47.500
it's not like we're dealing with any sort of

01:22:47.500 --> 01:22:51.800
golden age here of Qajar rule. But this is like

01:22:51.800 --> 01:22:57.779
really horrible. So Persia. is actually neutral

01:22:57.779 --> 01:23:00.439
in World War I. They want to be neutral. They

01:23:00.439 --> 01:23:06.000
do not have any desire to play a big role in

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:09.079
the world there. That does not stop other countries

01:23:09.079 --> 01:23:12.319
from coming in and trying to exploit Persia as

01:23:12.319 --> 01:23:15.180
it has been done throughout the 19th century.

01:23:15.609 --> 01:23:19.449
So we get a different, a new player in the game

01:23:19.449 --> 01:23:22.609
here. Along with the British, along with the

01:23:22.609 --> 01:23:26.029
Russians, now we have Ottoman forces. And what

01:23:26.029 --> 01:23:27.890
these groups are doing, particularly the Russians

01:23:27.890 --> 01:23:29.930
and the Ottomans, and also the British to a certain

01:23:29.930 --> 01:23:32.590
extent, is they're going in and they're exploiting

01:23:32.590 --> 01:23:36.810
and they're seizing food and other materials

01:23:36.810 --> 01:23:40.390
to sustain conflict. The Ottomans are the Ottoman

01:23:40.390 --> 01:23:42.729
Empire. The Ottoman Empire, which is... Which

01:23:42.729 --> 01:23:45.520
later would... Become Turkey. Become the Republic

01:23:45.520 --> 01:23:48.199
of Turkey. Yes. Sort of. And we will be talking

01:23:48.199 --> 01:23:52.279
about Turkey next episode. But for the time being,

01:23:52.359 --> 01:23:55.100
the Ottomans are going around and they are, you

01:23:55.100 --> 01:23:58.260
know, looking back on the whole sweep of Persian

01:23:58.260 --> 01:24:03.460
history, the Ottomans are rivals with Persia.

01:24:03.880 --> 01:24:06.720
for influence in what we would now call the Middle

01:24:06.720 --> 01:24:10.500
East. They are traditional rivals, and they are

01:24:10.500 --> 01:24:15.260
going in and attempting to seize agricultural

01:24:15.260 --> 01:24:19.520
supplies to support their own war effort. They

01:24:19.520 --> 01:24:22.000
had a war in the 19th century against each other.

01:24:22.039 --> 01:24:24.359
Yes. And in World War I, for those who don't

01:24:24.359 --> 01:24:27.439
know, so the Ottoman Empire is one of the central

01:24:27.439 --> 01:24:29.920
powers, so it's on the same side as Germany and

01:24:29.920 --> 01:24:33.800
Austria -Hungary. Britain and France and Russia

01:24:33.800 --> 01:24:35.619
are the triple entendre or the other side, the

01:24:35.619 --> 01:24:38.659
allies of World War II. What this does, though,

01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:43.619
what this competition for seizing resources from

01:24:43.619 --> 01:24:47.000
the Persians is it really disrupts the ability

01:24:47.000 --> 01:24:50.260
to transport food in the country and it kind

01:24:50.260 --> 01:24:54.119
of disrupts internal trade because now you're

01:24:54.119 --> 01:24:58.470
having to – People seizing not just food, but

01:24:58.470 --> 01:25:02.449
also avenues by which you can remove, you know,

01:25:02.470 --> 01:25:05.829
logistics hubs and things like that. They're

01:25:05.829 --> 01:25:09.710
being disrupted as well. As a result of this,

01:25:09.829 --> 01:25:14.909
by 1917 to 1918, and this is also the time where

01:25:14.909 --> 01:25:16.770
we're looking at the Spanish influenza outbreak

01:25:16.770 --> 01:25:20.750
as well. So we have a kind of pandemic also driving

01:25:20.750 --> 01:25:23.630
things. There is countrywide malnutrition is

01:25:23.630 --> 01:25:26.909
breaking out. And it's a combination of poor

01:25:26.909 --> 01:25:30.689
harvest, drought, and this aggressive wartime

01:25:30.689 --> 01:25:33.289
requisitioning of food and animals by the belligerents.

01:25:33.430 --> 01:25:38.510
And there are also things like hoarding, price

01:25:38.510 --> 01:25:41.890
gouging, and things like that, that raise prices

01:25:41.890 --> 01:25:44.050
so people couldn't afford things. That happens

01:25:44.050 --> 01:25:46.529
in every disaster. So all that was combining.

01:25:46.810 --> 01:25:50.750
It is, and then you have outbreaks of typhus,

01:25:50.750 --> 01:25:55.510
cholera, and malaria. along with Spanish influenza,

01:25:55.869 --> 01:25:58.989
which is a worldwide pandemic that occurs during

01:25:58.989 --> 01:26:02.529
this period. And the area that had been under

01:26:02.529 --> 01:26:07.449
the control of the Russians and also the northern

01:26:07.449 --> 01:26:11.710
part of Persia and western Persia, those are

01:26:11.710 --> 01:26:14.649
particularly affected by all of this. A lot of

01:26:14.649 --> 01:26:16.949
the fighting between the Ottomans and the Russians

01:26:16.949 --> 01:26:20.890
was up in northwestern Iran. Yes. In what they

01:26:20.890 --> 01:26:24.350
call Iranian Azerbaijan. Yeah. That area. A lot

01:26:24.350 --> 01:26:26.930
of the fighting was there. And, you know, there

01:26:26.930 --> 01:26:28.250
were a lot of deaths from the fighting, too.

01:26:28.449 --> 01:26:31.510
And, you know, usual ethnic massacres and things

01:26:31.510 --> 01:26:33.829
like that that happened when, you know, people

01:26:33.829 --> 01:26:36.689
conquer each other. Well, this is a traditional

01:26:36.689 --> 01:26:39.930
area of competition between them. So that went

01:26:39.930 --> 01:26:42.449
on, too. And finally, of course, Russia collapsed

01:26:42.449 --> 01:26:44.550
with the Russian Revolution in 1917. Probably

01:26:44.550 --> 01:26:46.449
the best thing that ever happened to Persia during

01:26:46.449 --> 01:26:47.810
this period. Yeah, they pulled out. But then

01:26:47.810 --> 01:26:50.260
the British were concerned about. intervening

01:26:50.260 --> 01:26:51.640
as well because they were fighting the Ottomans

01:26:51.640 --> 01:26:53.239
because they run opposite sides in the war. And

01:26:53.239 --> 01:26:54.579
so the British were involved and there was more

01:26:54.579 --> 01:26:56.539
fighting and on and on and on. And Persia is

01:26:56.539 --> 01:26:59.119
still a non -belligerent in this. So finally

01:26:59.119 --> 01:27:00.979
the Ottoman Empire collapsed and lost the war

01:27:00.979 --> 01:27:02.920
and had to pull out. But a lot of damage had

01:27:02.920 --> 01:27:06.600
been done. Yes. Now, speaking of damage, one

01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:11.680
of the things that we should address is the death

01:27:11.680 --> 01:27:15.520
toll from all of this. Now, this is a very controversial

01:27:15.520 --> 01:27:21.399
aspect of the actual statistics. And I'm just

01:27:21.399 --> 01:27:23.840
going to say this. I don't have any special insight

01:27:23.840 --> 01:27:27.340
into what is valid and what is invalid. I do

01:27:27.340 --> 01:27:33.810
know the population of Persia around 1914 was

01:27:33.810 --> 01:27:38.460
estimated to be about 10 million. So there are

01:27:38.460 --> 01:27:44.649
Iranian scholars that propose a death toll of

01:27:44.649 --> 01:27:46.850
8 to 10 million. Now, I kind of think that's

01:27:46.850 --> 01:27:48.670
a little high because then you don't have any

01:27:50.310 --> 01:27:53.250
Everyone's dead. And that's not, that plainly

01:27:53.250 --> 01:27:55.090
did not happen. There still are Iranians now.

01:27:55.229 --> 01:27:56.909
There still are Iranians now. They did not all

01:27:56.909 --> 01:28:01.170
die. You know, there's a slightly smaller figure,

01:28:01.229 --> 01:28:04.390
but still catastrophic of one to two million.

01:28:05.270 --> 01:28:07.489
And then there is another, this is according

01:28:07.489 --> 01:28:11.060
to British sources. And I'm just going to say,

01:28:11.119 --> 01:28:13.039
well, you know, the British might have a reason

01:28:13.039 --> 01:28:16.060
to underestimate, just as the Persians or Iranians

01:28:16.060 --> 01:28:18.920
have an interest in overestimating the death

01:28:18.920 --> 01:28:23.539
toll. Other sources suggest that half the country

01:28:23.539 --> 01:28:27.180
was killed due to disease and famine. So these

01:28:27.180 --> 01:28:29.439
are the options. I can't really rule on this.

01:28:29.479 --> 01:28:31.920
I'm just going to say 10 million is too high

01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:33.960
in a country of 10 million because there were

01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:37.020
still people living. But I have seen pictures

01:28:37.020 --> 01:28:40.640
and it is horrendous. I haven't seen any definitive

01:28:40.640 --> 01:28:45.420
figures myself. However, what you say, the characterization

01:28:45.420 --> 01:28:49.720
of it, absolutely. It was a devastating time

01:28:49.720 --> 01:28:52.899
for the country. Nothing good came out of this

01:28:52.899 --> 01:28:57.529
time. I'm kind of like saying if you're if you

01:28:57.529 --> 01:29:01.310
are running the country, as the Khajars allegedly

01:29:01.310 --> 01:29:05.710
were, they're not viewed kindly by the population

01:29:05.710 --> 01:29:10.050
as a whole here. Again, the best thing to come

01:29:10.050 --> 01:29:11.949
out of this was the Russian Revolution, because

01:29:11.949 --> 01:29:14.670
basically. the Russians can no longer interfere

01:29:14.670 --> 01:29:16.930
in the internal affairs of Persia because they're

01:29:16.930 --> 01:29:18.949
too busy interfering with their own internal

01:29:18.949 --> 01:29:22.289
affairs and their civil war. And this is going

01:29:22.289 --> 01:29:25.930
to present a kind of power vacuum that prevents

01:29:25.930 --> 01:29:28.590
Persia to have a certain degree of sovereignty

01:29:28.590 --> 01:29:30.970
that it did not enjoy in the northern part of

01:29:30.970 --> 01:29:34.319
the country. Now, the British... British are

01:29:34.319 --> 01:29:37.180
very active in the Middle East after World War

01:29:37.180 --> 01:29:40.260
I. They acquire all sorts of new territory as

01:29:40.260 --> 01:29:43.319
a result of the Sykes -Picot Agreement between

01:29:43.319 --> 01:29:46.140
them and the French to divvy up the old Ottoman

01:29:46.140 --> 01:29:50.579
Empire. So they are very active in creating these,

01:29:50.760 --> 01:29:53.699
what Mike and I have occasionally called fake

01:29:53.699 --> 01:29:58.060
countries, that reflect kind of their empire

01:29:58.060 --> 01:30:03.560
building. France and Britain. Yeah, and that's

01:30:03.560 --> 01:30:05.319
not intended to insult the people in those countries.

01:30:05.539 --> 01:30:08.079
It's just that their history is that their borders

01:30:08.079 --> 01:30:10.460
were created by foreigners based on imperial

01:30:10.460 --> 01:30:11.680
interests. It's got nothing to do with their

01:30:11.680 --> 01:30:13.699
own interests. It didn't come naturally out of

01:30:13.699 --> 01:30:14.899
the people who lived there. We want to be a country.

01:30:15.039 --> 01:30:16.939
They were just made into one. They were made

01:30:16.939 --> 01:30:20.380
into one, yes. But so what the British tried

01:30:20.380 --> 01:30:23.079
to do, you know, they kind of see a certain,

01:30:23.119 --> 01:30:27.010
there's some opportunity here. is to go in and

01:30:27.010 --> 01:30:31.760
try and establish a sort of Anglo -Persian. Finally,

01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:34.619
we get the Persians in an agreement that deals

01:30:34.619 --> 01:30:38.800
with the benefit of the fate of their country.

01:30:39.100 --> 01:30:41.800
So this was the Anglo -Persian Accord of 1919,

01:30:41.800 --> 01:30:45.840
and it would have turned Persia into kind of

01:30:45.840 --> 01:30:47.800
a British protectorate, not unlike some of these

01:30:47.800 --> 01:30:50.359
other protectorates in the Middle East. However,

01:30:50.699 --> 01:30:53.100
there is a parliament now, and they refuse to

01:30:53.100 --> 01:30:56.479
ratify this. So this is a step in the right direction

01:30:56.479 --> 01:31:01.199
in terms of Persian sovereignty. The Qajar dynasty

01:31:01.199 --> 01:31:04.619
at this juncture, I mean, you're talking about

01:31:04.619 --> 01:31:09.000
as much as half the population gone as a result

01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:13.119
of misrule and inability to exert sovereignty.

01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:17.039
They are fully discredited by all elements of

01:31:17.039 --> 01:31:20.039
Persian society, and they're going to fall in

01:31:20.039 --> 01:31:25.550
1921. So by 1920, just to take stock of where

01:31:25.550 --> 01:31:28.899
we are here. The Russians are no longer capable

01:31:28.899 --> 01:31:31.300
of disrupting the internal affairs of Persia,

01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:33.779
and the British efforts to enhance its control

01:31:33.779 --> 01:31:37.000
are stymied by the parliament. The creation of

01:31:37.000 --> 01:31:42.079
the modulus is actually helping to create a kind

01:31:42.079 --> 01:31:45.979
of sense of sovereignty or sense of state. The

01:31:45.979 --> 01:31:48.239
British are still controlling the exploitation

01:31:48.239 --> 01:31:53.229
of Persia's oil revenue. And again, This is something

01:31:53.229 --> 01:31:55.289
that's going to have a big impact on the future

01:31:55.289 --> 01:31:58.270
here, and we cannot emphasize this too much.

01:31:58.350 --> 01:32:02.090
And the actual government in Tehran, such as

01:32:02.090 --> 01:32:04.470
exists, is getting very little in the way of

01:32:04.470 --> 01:32:06.729
revenue. Now, was that agreement from before

01:32:06.729 --> 01:32:08.609
still in effect at this time? The agreement in

01:32:08.609 --> 01:32:13.409
before that basically gives a whopping 16 % of

01:32:13.409 --> 01:32:17.270
the revenue is still in effect and will remain

01:32:17.270 --> 01:32:21.090
in effect. until it's not in effect, and we will

01:32:21.090 --> 01:32:23.090
get into that. It's not going to be 60 years,

01:32:23.170 --> 01:32:26.710
though. The United States is actually emerging

01:32:26.710 --> 01:32:30.050
from the Qajar period with a good reputation,

01:32:30.090 --> 01:32:35.079
unlike its European allies in World War I. But

01:32:35.079 --> 01:32:37.220
it's still not terribly interested in what's

01:32:37.220 --> 01:32:40.140
going on there. I mean, it's missionaries. It's,

01:32:40.140 --> 01:32:43.640
you know, basic cats and dogs stuff at the legation.

01:32:44.079 --> 01:32:47.699
It's not like we are taking an active role in

01:32:47.699 --> 01:32:52.060
the affairs of Iran. And it is not central. It's

01:32:52.060 --> 01:32:53.899
a remote place, which we don't have a lot of

01:32:53.899 --> 01:32:56.260
interest in. And we're actually going into this

01:32:56.260 --> 01:32:59.640
isolationist period at this time. Now, all of

01:32:59.640 --> 01:33:02.119
this is going to change in our next episode.

01:33:02.770 --> 01:33:05.510
where we'll see the emergence of a new ruling

01:33:05.510 --> 01:33:09.470
dynasty, the Pahlavis, who are going to set out

01:33:09.470 --> 01:33:12.810
to try and change this cycle of exploitation

01:33:12.810 --> 01:33:16.149
and loss of sovereignty to foreign influences.

01:33:16.729 --> 01:33:19.609
But perhaps they're not going to succeed as much

01:33:19.609 --> 01:33:22.590
as they would like to or as other people would

01:33:22.590 --> 01:33:26.050
like them to do so. But we'll see how that develops.

01:33:28.829 --> 01:33:31.789
Thanks again to Sharon Bybee for joining us today.

01:33:32.439 --> 01:33:35.439
Sharon, you write the Redacted No More sub stack,

01:33:35.640 --> 01:33:37.520
and I know you have a wide range of interests,

01:33:37.560 --> 01:33:39.539
so please tell us a little bit more about what

01:33:39.539 --> 01:33:43.340
you write and where we can find it. Sure. I started

01:33:43.340 --> 01:33:46.220
my Substack after I left government service last

01:33:46.220 --> 01:33:50.119
year, mainly as a way of working through some

01:33:50.119 --> 01:33:53.380
of the reasons why I decided to leave government

01:33:53.380 --> 01:33:57.279
service. But I write about a number of different

01:33:57.279 --> 01:34:00.819
things, whatever kind of catches my fancy, from

01:34:00.819 --> 01:34:05.000
history to foreign affairs and travel. All right.

01:34:05.079 --> 01:34:08.399
So go check out Redacted No More by Sharon Bybee

01:34:08.399 --> 01:34:11.569
on Substack. We'll post a link to it on our website.

01:34:12.090 --> 01:34:14.989
And join us here for our next episode as we continue

01:34:14.989 --> 01:34:17.189
to look at what went wrong between the United

01:34:17.189 --> 01:34:23.539
States and Iran. That's it for this episode of

01:34:23.539 --> 01:34:26.479
the United States of Amnesia. Thank you for listening.

01:34:26.739 --> 01:34:29.140
We hope you learned something and we hope you

01:34:29.140 --> 01:34:31.279
discovered new ways of looking at things you

01:34:31.279 --> 01:34:34.140
had already heard or thought about or perhaps

01:34:34.140 --> 01:34:36.899
hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed it, that's

01:34:36.899 --> 01:34:40.319
great. If we made you mad, that's okay too. Either

01:34:40.319 --> 01:34:45.250
way. Email us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and

01:34:45.250 --> 01:34:47.750
let us know what you think. Also, let us know

01:34:47.750 --> 01:34:49.829
about anything you think we missed or got wrong.

01:34:50.029 --> 01:34:53.029
We'd like to know about that too. And of course,

01:34:53.069 --> 01:34:55.510
please like and subscribe and let your friends

01:34:55.510 --> 01:34:58.510
and neighbors know about us. We also have a website.

01:34:58.609 --> 01:35:05.590
It's www .usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike,

01:35:05.729 --> 01:35:08.449
and myself, Blake Henke. Till next time.