The U.S. And Iran: What Went Wrong? - The Mosaddegh Hour

WEBVTT

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If I sit silently, I have sinned. Mohamed Mosaddegh,

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1950. In our last episode, Shah Mohamed Pahlavi

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was on a collision course with the modulus, and

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in particular, a member of that assembly, Mohamed

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Mosaddegh. Welcome to the United States of Amnesia,

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the podcast that reminds us of what we have forgotten.

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History doesn't just tell us where we've been,

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it shapes how we understand the present. Yet

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the past is never as simple as we remember it.

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Over time, history becomes filtered through politics,

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ideology, and popular myth until the original

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story can be hard to recognize. History may not

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repeat itself, per se, but it often rhymes, as

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Mark Twain once remarked. Join Marshall Newman,

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Mike Mendenhall, and Blake Hinckley as we explore

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history, politics, religion, and the connections

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between them. By understanding the past more

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clearly, we can better understand the present

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and prepare for history's next rhyme. After World

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War II, the Anglo -Iranian Oil Company is the

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United Kingdom's biggest overseas asset, and

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it holds a monopoly on the extraction, refinement,

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and exportation of Iranian oil. While Mohammad

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Reza Shah, the son of the original Reza Shah,

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Curry's favor with the Truman administration

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in the United States in 1949, Mohammad Mosaddegh

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is solidifying power and eventually becomes Iran's

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prime minister in 1951. The popular Mosaddegh

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is a nationalist who wants Iran to get a better

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oil deal, but British intransigence leads him

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to nationalize the Anglo -Iranian oil company

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instead. The outraged British place Iran under

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an embargo, setting in motion a chain of events

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that will lead to Mossadegh's downfall and will

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set up the rise again of the Shah. We are delighted

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to be joined again at the table by Sharon Bybee

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as our guest. She is a retired intelligence professional

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and the author of the sub -stack Redacted No

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More, and she joins us again today. We welcome

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a new guest today, Jennifer Westberg. who spent

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much of her life immersed in Iranian culture

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and has had a lifelong love and passion for Iran

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and its people. Jennifer and her family arrived

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in Iran when her father, the late John Westberg,

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moved there to work as a lawyer for the U .S.

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State Department in the 1960s. Jen enjoyed a

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vibrant childhood in Tehran from 1965 to 1972.

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and she visited Iran again in 1978, seeing firsthand

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many of the events that led up to the Islamic

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Revolution the following year. She has a bachelor's

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degree in history with a focus on Iran. Welcome,

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Jen. We're happy to have you. Thank you so much.

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I'm thrilled to be here. This is a topic very

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close to my heart and I think hugely relevant

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to everyone. The Shah was seeking to reestablish

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the kind of authoritarian control that his father

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had enjoyed. In fact, the Shah has a huge issue

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with trying to live up to the reputation of his

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father, Reza Shah, who was quite the authoritarian.

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But he was also kind of psychologically, as we'll

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see, not quite up to the same measure as his

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father was. There were various elements within

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the Iranian political structure. that were opposing

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him. These included the Today or the Communist

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Party, various clergymen who viewed the Palavis

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as either too secular or too autocratic, and

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the various reform elements, the ideological

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descendants of the men and families who had established

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the 1905 constitutional revolution. And when

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you say Today or Communist, you mean the Today

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Party is the Communist Party? The Today Party

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is the Communist Party. It's good that you brought

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that up because this party during the entire

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time that we're talking about from now until

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the revolution, is going to assume immense, almost

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magical influence as far as U .S. policy is concerned.

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They are constantly concerned about its influence

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and power, and they magnified it far beyond what

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reality would otherwise dictate. So in our series

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on China, the Tea, Drugs, and Jesus series, we

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spent quite a bit of time talking about how the

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United States... certainly by the 1950s, was

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looking at the world in terms of monolithic communism

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versus the free world, and didn't really make

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much distinctions in the way of communism as

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part of a national movement or anything else.

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So that's the reason that the two -day had, as

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you put it, this magical influence on the United

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States, because the United States is viewed as

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part of a big global conspiracy to subject the

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entire world to the evils of communism. And just

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almost as a sort of prelude to what we're going

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to be talking about later, The party was always

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thought to be behind anything that was happening,

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anything that was going on in Iran. There were

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people at CIA or at the NSC who were always worried

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about this as a factor in anything that was going

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on with Iran whenever Iran rose to the level

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of attention. The NSC is a national security

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council in the United States. The group that

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is not... attracting a lot of attention outside,

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which is probably an oversight, is the clergy.

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And the distinctions with the various divisions

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in terms of opposition to the Shah were not really

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understood. Again, you have clergy who feels

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like the Apollovies have gone too secular, and

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then you have clergy... that are of this tradition

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from the 1905 constitutional revolution who view

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the Shah as trying to become too autocratic,

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which they were opposed to. And Marshall, at

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this point, we're talking about Iran in the late

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40s, the beginning of the 50s. When are we talking

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about? We're talking about really about 1950.

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Let's just pick 1950 as the date when all this

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is going to be happening, because there is some

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stuff that is occurring in terms of the Shah

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seeking to influence American opinion. That is

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ongoing that begins in the 40s, but really we're

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talking about the beginning of the 50s here Can

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we pause for a pronunciation check? Sure. So

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I'm informed that previous episode I mispronounced

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a certain city in Iran, which is supposed to

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be called Khorramshahr Khorramshahr. All right,

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so let's get that straight Mosaddegh Mosaddegh.

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All right A noise that most Americans cannot

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make so we'll settle for Mosaddegh Okay. And

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the other one is, I understand that we might

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be mispronouncing the name of the dynasty that

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we're talking about here, Jen? Pahlavi. Pahlavi.

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Pahlavi. So it's Pahlavi. They aspirate the H.

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Pahlavi. Again, it's not something that we are

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used to doing in speaking English. That way Farsi

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speakers out there know that at least we're trying.

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We're trying. Or at least they know that we know

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we're wrong. Yes. And we do have two people who

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are familiar with the language. Well, Jen more

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so than me. I just pretend to. I slept in a Holiday

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Inn last night. Okay. But Jen does speak some

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Farsi, having grown up in Tehran. Yeah. I think

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that the clerics, as you are starting to get

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into, are particularly interesting, and it can

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get very confusing. At this point... in Iranian

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history, they are not trying to be the government.

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They're not where the Ayatollah Khomeini is in

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the 79 Revolution. They are not trying to run

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the government. But there are some that are trying

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to take part in political discourse. But there

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are others who don't want to do that, who are

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taking, I think you... Jennifer called it a quietist

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point of view. And then there's another branch

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of the clerics who are really taking a lot of

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activism, radical involvement, and even using

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assassination as a political instrument. Which

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we'll get into one of those. Right. So there's

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a spectrum of political involvement by the clerical

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class. But the tradition. as I understand it,

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is for the clergy to kind of be above politics

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because it's a corrupt process here. I don't

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know that I would phrase it that way because

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there are some that are definitely involved in

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politics. I think it's... But say like the clergy

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running things, not necessarily being involved

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in politics, but kind of like setting the agenda.

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Actually governing. Actually governing. Setting

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up like a coterie of mullahs to run things like

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we're seeing after the revolution. Oh, in terms

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of being the government. Being the government.

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Not influencing, but being. They are not trying

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to be the government. You know what I don't know,

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and I would need to look this up. I'll do this

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right now. I'm not sure if. some of them might

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have been deputies in the modulus. Some were

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in the modulus. Some were in the modulus. Some

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were in the modulus. So they were in the government

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that way, but they weren't doing what is now,

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I hate to throw this out, the velia diva qui,

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which is how the rule of the supreme jurisprudence,

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the rule of the ayatollah. right now, but that

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form of government in the Islamic Republic, they

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aren't trying to do that at this point in time

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in the 40s and 50s. No, they're not. They are

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trying to rule within the system of government

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that exists. They are trying to, I shouldn't

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say rule, they are trying to be a part of the

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political discourse that exists. And influence

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things in a positive way. Yes. Well, except for

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the assassinations. Well, they might. regard

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that as possible. We've actually talked about

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in this series about how dating, back to the

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first episode where we talked about, say, the

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tobacco boycott, the tobacco protest in the 1890s.

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The clergy was involved in supporting that. Absolutely.

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I think it was one of the grand ayatollahs actually

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put out the fatwa saying don't consume tobacco

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for the foreseeable future. And also, I know

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that we saw that the clergy were supportive of...

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the constitutional revolution and supportive

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of some kind of a greater, more democratic government

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back in the early 1900s. There were, there were

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some clergy, some clergy actually favored the

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monarchy. And even, even though it was corrupt

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as, as, as, as hell there, but they, they kind

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of viewed that as kind of more traditional, traditional

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values, traditional values, you know, with the,

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with, with the, with the, with the Shah there.

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So there's always a spectrum. And there was some

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political activism, but then we're drawing a

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distinction between that and actually being involved

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directly in government. Of being the government.

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I think it's a case of the extremists. Gaining

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a lot of support simply because they were extremists.

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Yeah, and I think they got well known especially

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with Khomeini Yeah, it is very important though

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to keep in mind here because I think Americans

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will Will have kind of like a stereotypical view

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about the Iranian clergy The Iranian clergy is

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not monolithic any more than communism is or

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any more than clergy in the United States is

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monolithic Yeah, right, you know, I mean you

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have a spectrum from you know, the liberation

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theologist who I was involved with in college,

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and then basically people who were moral majority

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types. So what are the Americans doing amid all

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of this? So kind of what we saw at the last episode

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was the ambassadors are becoming kind of, and

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even policymakers within the United States, they're

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becoming increasingly favorable to the Shah.

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You know, he is no longer the non -entity of

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the Tehran conference, but it's a dangerous path

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of basically... putting their absolute trust

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in what the Shah says and his opinions and his

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view of things. So if we're talking about 1950,

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that's a pretty big change then from 1943 in

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the Tehran. Yes. Because he was considered a

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non -entity then. Yes. And Roosevelt didn't think

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he'd be a... Important player at all or Iran

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would be no in the post -war world He did have

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his big tour finally in 1949 Where he stripped

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the palaces of all the antiques and gave them

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out to very not just Truman and his wife and

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daughter But various various tastemakers various

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opinion people over in the United States during

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this tour And so he is continuing this charm

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offensive with the ambassadors and he's older

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He's 33 or something like that, 32. And someone

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with his background who has like this sort of

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Swiss boarding school education, that strikes

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him as being somewhat appealing. Although Mossadegh

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also has a Swiss education and also he is the

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first Iranian to have a PhD. Was he the first

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to attend? College in Europe or something like

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that? At that level. At that level. At that level,

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to go on to get a doctorate. He is the first

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person to do that in Iran. In Iran. We can call

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him, I think, easily the Shah's biggest opponent,

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the leading opponent. Mohamed Mossadegh. Mohamed

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Mossadegh. He was in his 70s, and he is a veteran

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of the 1905 Constitutional Revolution. Like I

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said, he has an education from France and Switzerland.

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He went on to teach at the Tehran School of Political

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Science. Now, he is also incredibly well connected.

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And one thing that people might not appreciate

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is just the importance of these sort of family

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ties in terms of how Iran functioned, at least

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during the period prior to the revolution. Everybody

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was related and cousins and nieces and nephews

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and stuff. So his maternal uncle, was actually

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a Qajar prime minister. Through his mother's

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side, he was actually related to the Qajars.

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And he held a number of positions, minister of

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justice, finance minister, foreign minister,

00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:58.059
governorship of the Azerbaijan province in the

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north of Iran. So he's no crazy lunatic, which

00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:04.039
is how the British would try to portray him.

00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.740
He is actually somebody who's moved up and held

00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:08.879
a number of responsible positions here. So when

00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.480
was this, like in the 20s and 30s? In the 20s.

00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.659
He had a... He was basically serving in these

00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:19.539
offices, but he had an issue with Reza Shah because

00:15:19.539 --> 00:15:23.259
Reza Shah is basically ruling in a kind of autocratic

00:15:23.259 --> 00:15:27.580
manner. Mosaddegh doesn't necessarily wish to

00:15:27.580 --> 00:15:31.720
become tainted by this. He was very much a person

00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.960
of integrity. He was dismissed for calling out

00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:38.259
corruption under Reza Shah and also disagreed

00:15:38.259 --> 00:15:42.019
with the centralizing thrust of... Reza Shah's

00:15:42.019 --> 00:15:45.000
program. But I want to go back to this point

00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.080
that you just made, that the British dismissed

00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:50.580
him as being crazy. And lots of folks in the

00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:56.830
West did. And I think that that was... Something

00:15:56.830 --> 00:16:00.629
that a lot of folks do with the Iranians, that

00:16:00.629 --> 00:16:03.909
when they act differently than how we think they

00:16:03.909 --> 00:16:07.509
should act, we just kind of dismiss them as crazy

00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:11.330
or irrational. But really, it was that his guiding

00:16:11.330 --> 00:16:14.389
light was Iranian nationalism, and it made him

00:16:14.389 --> 00:16:17.730
difficult. And so they just put this label on

00:16:17.730 --> 00:16:20.549
him as being crazy. Yes. And I mean, this was

00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:23.220
also part of the information. operation campaign

00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:27.879
that the British mounted to try and bring in

00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:32.559
all sorts of calumnies against him in order to

00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.480
discredit his leadership both at home and abroad

00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.279
here. But I mean, here's something just to consider.

00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:42.950
It's like what people call foreigners that are

00:16:42.950 --> 00:16:45.190
nationalistic, they call them nationalists, but

00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:47.549
you know, if... They're in your country. We would

00:16:47.549 --> 00:16:50.870
call them patriots. Exactly. And so this is something

00:16:50.870 --> 00:16:55.120
that people need to, like, understand that. Just

00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.100
because you put your country ahead of our country,

00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.100
that does not mean you're a bad guy. It just

00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:03.419
means there are ways one can reach compromises

00:17:03.419 --> 00:17:05.259
and things like that. One does not necessarily

00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:08.460
need to dismiss them as either pro -US or crazy.

00:17:09.220 --> 00:17:11.319
Well, if they're operating in another country

00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:12.660
and you disapprove of them, then they become

00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:14.980
insurgents. Yes, they become insurgents. Or even

00:17:14.980 --> 00:17:19.720
terrorists in some cases. Yes. So the definitions

00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:23.700
are kind of... The labels that we use can be

00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:27.380
loaded. Yes. So he is returning to public life

00:17:27.380 --> 00:17:31.059
in the 40s. He comes back into modulus in 1944.

00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.359
At this point, the modulus is like you explained

00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.400
last time. It's become a rubber stamp under razor

00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:39.200
shot. Yes, but it hasn't recovered from his departure

00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.119
yet. It's in the process of recovering in the

00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:46.440
40s. And so we're actually seeing things get

00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.160
set up where there's a kind of competition between

00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.950
the modulus. and the Shah as to who's going to

00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:55.109
run things. So this is three years after Razor

00:17:55.109 --> 00:17:58.589
Shah was deposed? Yes. Okay. So something just

00:17:58.589 --> 00:18:02.789
to throw out there, people who were Western observers,

00:18:03.029 --> 00:18:05.470
particularly Americans, who had a kind of negative

00:18:05.470 --> 00:18:09.049
view towards the Middle East and Persia or Iran

00:18:09.049 --> 00:18:12.670
from books they had read as children, kind of

00:18:12.670 --> 00:18:15.930
imperialist books. They viewed this as kind of

00:18:15.930 --> 00:18:19.069
chaotic. But I mean, let's just think about this

00:18:19.069 --> 00:18:22.569
in terms of the Western tradition. The 17th century

00:18:22.569 --> 00:18:24.809
in Britain was basically a period that marked

00:18:24.809 --> 00:18:28.630
competition between the monarch. and the parliament.

00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:31.509
And this included a civil war. This included

00:18:31.509 --> 00:18:34.170
a glorious revolution. This included all sorts

00:18:34.170 --> 00:18:37.450
of twists and turns here. And maybe to a foreign

00:18:37.450 --> 00:18:40.549
observer going to Britain at the time, they would

00:18:40.549 --> 00:18:42.910
have regarded this as somewhat chaotic. Now we

00:18:42.910 --> 00:18:45.509
regard it as sort of like the pathway to democracy.

00:18:45.950 --> 00:18:50.490
But at the time, it was not regarded as that

00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:53.829
by continental powers who are seeing them execute

00:18:53.829 --> 00:18:58.420
a king, for example. So perspective does make

00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:01.960
a difference, I think, in terms of how you choose

00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:06.680
to view things here. Folks, we have a new sponsor.

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00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:37.400
talk about the British because the British are

00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:39.799
going to play a big role in this whole episode.

00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.680
The British Empire was in the process of falling

00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.920
apart. They did not realize this for some reason.

00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:50.500
They were continually trying to maintain things.

00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:55.950
But in 1947, the jewel in the crown, India, became

00:19:55.950 --> 00:19:59.150
independent, and the two countries of Pakistan

00:19:59.150 --> 00:20:03.970
and India were created. There was a sense on

00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:05.710
the part of the British, and I'd say both for

00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:08.210
labor and Tories, that they did not want the

00:20:08.210 --> 00:20:11.109
rot to continue. They wanted to maintain things

00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:15.750
as they were. And Iran was part of this. The

00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:18.950
Iranians are actually becoming very disenchanted

00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.329
with the British presence, and for good reason.

00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:25.470
The Anglo -Iranian Oil Company, or I'm going

00:20:25.470 --> 00:20:30.569
to refer to it as AIOC, had since 1909, when

00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:33.589
oil was discovered, realized very huge profits.

00:20:34.349 --> 00:20:37.190
in the course of its time in Iran. They had built

00:20:37.190 --> 00:20:41.269
the Abadan complex, which is the largest oil

00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:44.150
refinery in the world at the time. And it processed

00:20:44.150 --> 00:20:46.109
oil and it sold to the British government at

00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:48.289
a heavy discount. British government was also

00:20:48.289 --> 00:20:53.930
a 51 % stockholder of AIOC. And they realized

00:20:53.930 --> 00:20:57.369
a lot of revenue from the company as majority

00:20:57.369 --> 00:21:00.849
stockholders here. Interesting, when the Iranian

00:21:00.849 --> 00:21:05.009
government tried to get purchase, oil from AIOC,

00:21:05.109 --> 00:21:08.069
they had to pay market price for it, even though

00:21:08.069 --> 00:21:12.250
it's their oil that's being extracted. The Iranians

00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:14.930
also are receiving a very small share of the

00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:18.289
enormous profits that AIOC reaped under the terms

00:21:18.289 --> 00:21:22.210
of this 1901 agreement that the Qajars had signed

00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:26.690
with the British. This is an issue that people

00:21:26.690 --> 00:21:29.990
would focus on because since this agreement was

00:21:30.329 --> 00:21:33.670
signed before the Constitution. Some people said

00:21:33.670 --> 00:21:35.990
the agreement was null and void and there was

00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:37.930
no reason to continue it. This was an argument

00:21:37.930 --> 00:21:41.849
that Mosaddegh will advance in his quest to nationalize

00:21:41.849 --> 00:21:49.210
AIOC. So the people of Iran had... a different

00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:52.789
experience than, say, the people in Abaddon,

00:21:52.849 --> 00:21:55.569
which is kind of a British enclave. It's almost

00:21:55.569 --> 00:21:58.869
like an outpost to the Raj here. It resembles

00:21:58.869 --> 00:22:01.529
a lot of segregated—it's almost like what we

00:22:01.529 --> 00:22:03.450
were talking about before we were recording,

00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:06.990
when we were talking about the Chinese missionaries,

00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:09.769
how they lived in their own enclaves. This was

00:22:09.769 --> 00:22:11.670
kind of the same thing with the British. The

00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:14.630
British had their— private clubs. They had their

00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.089
cinemas. They even drove on the left side of

00:22:17.089 --> 00:22:19.849
the road in Abadan, which is not how people drove

00:22:19.849 --> 00:22:22.769
in the rest of Iran. Everything was set up to

00:22:22.769 --> 00:22:25.910
be as British as Yorkshire pudding there. It

00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:28.829
was essentially a colony, a British colony, not

00:22:28.829 --> 00:22:33.170
legally, but in fact, because if you wanted to...

00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:35.859
open a business in abadan you had to get permission

00:22:35.859 --> 00:22:39.200
from the british and that kind of thing and most

00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:40.920
of the businesses were british right you know

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.079
i mean you could you could go to british stores

00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:48.000
there so i understand and the significance of

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.819
abadan is that it was the big oil refinery it's

00:22:50.819 --> 00:22:53.799
the big oil refinery the biggest oil refinery

00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:59.180
in the world yes at the time at the time uh it

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:02.769
doesn't exist now the the iraqis got basically

00:23:02.769 --> 00:23:07.690
destroyed it in 1980. During the Iran -Iraq War.

00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:11.829
Yes. Or as the Iranians call it, the first Persian

00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:16.809
Gulf War. They even had green lawns in Abadan,

00:23:16.970 --> 00:23:19.630
just like back home in Britain. Everything was

00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:22.950
set up to be just a little piece of Britain here

00:23:22.950 --> 00:23:27.960
in Iran. There's also a club, which I think is

00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:31.619
a good metaphor for how things worked between

00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:33.900
the British and the Iranians. It was called the

00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:36.599
Persian Club, but it's interesting because no

00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:39.119
Persians were allowed to go to it. I mean, at

00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.099
least in the Raj, if you were one of the princely

00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:44.079
families, you were kind of accepted by the British

00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.680
establishment. Here, Iranians were regarded kind

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:50.940
of as second -class citizens, or at least, I

00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:54.700
mean, we could even say subhuman. Just like in

00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:58.420
the American South, the workers were not allowed

00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:00.259
to drink out of water fountains. There were water

00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:01.900
fountains that were for British and there were

00:24:01.900 --> 00:24:05.819
water fountains for Persians or Iranians. Iranian

00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:10.799
workers, they're housed in unsanitary slums and

00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:14.589
forbidden to mix with British workers. You know,

00:24:14.609 --> 00:24:17.150
some of this might have been mitigated if AIOC

00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:20.970
had paid any taxes in Iran. They did not. They

00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:23.890
paid taxes to the British government, which the

00:24:23.890 --> 00:24:25.730
British government was very glad to receive them.

00:24:25.950 --> 00:24:29.769
But in terms of money that's actually flowing

00:24:29.769 --> 00:24:33.369
to Iran, they were promised a percentage of profits.

00:24:33.869 --> 00:24:36.089
And it's not clear that they were actually getting

00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:39.049
all that was due to them. The Iranians were suspicious.

00:24:40.089 --> 00:24:41.970
but they were not allowed to ever inspect the

00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:44.230
books or even have an Iranian representative

00:24:44.230 --> 00:24:47.789
on the AIOC board. I think they were supposed

00:24:47.789 --> 00:24:51.190
to get only 16 .1 % or something like that. Yes,

00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:54.109
and it's not clear that they're actually getting

00:24:54.109 --> 00:24:57.750
what they're due. Some of the riders I'm saying

00:24:57.750 --> 00:25:00.130
is that the company managers fiddled the profits

00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:03.509
and basically gave the Iranians kind of whatever

00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:05.650
they wanted to give them. They were not necessarily

00:25:05.650 --> 00:25:08.029
in compliance. And a principal demand that the

00:25:08.029 --> 00:25:12.210
Iranians will be making, post -war, is they would

00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:15.450
like to look at the books. Now, if everything's

00:25:15.450 --> 00:25:18.509
above board, I'm just going to say this, there

00:25:18.509 --> 00:25:20.710
shouldn't be a problem with this. But this was

00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:25.890
a major sticking point. AIOC basically said,

00:25:25.990 --> 00:25:29.230
we will not show you the books. There is no reason

00:25:29.230 --> 00:25:31.930
for you to see the books. I would say that's

00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:33.890
acting like somebody who has something to hide.

00:25:33.950 --> 00:25:37.869
That's just my opinion. I mean, if you're above

00:25:37.869 --> 00:25:40.160
board, you're above board here. Well, there's

00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.740
that, but then probably there's just also the...

00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.579
imperial idea that you don't let the locals tell

00:25:45.579 --> 00:25:47.240
the imperial power what to do. You don't let

00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.000
them look at your affairs or anything. You're

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.480
above them. You're superior to them. There's

00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:56.799
probably that mentality as well. Yes. I did bring

00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:01.059
in Curzon two episodes ago for a reason. Curzon

00:26:01.059 --> 00:26:04.720
is the autocratic, chauvinistic British foreign

00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.920
minister who basically insisted the Iranians

00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:08.940
are going to be part of their empire, whether

00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:12.049
they like it or not. And that is the kind of

00:26:12.049 --> 00:26:15.730
ruling mentality that still prevails here. And

00:26:15.730 --> 00:26:18.349
if we look at things just from a historical perspective,

00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:21.829
this is so out of date. This is so out of date

00:26:21.829 --> 00:26:24.710
with where things are going in the 1950s. And

00:26:24.710 --> 00:26:28.509
I mean, not just for the British, but for everybody.

00:26:28.890 --> 00:26:31.910
All the great European empires that had come

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:35.390
about in the 19th century, the British, the French,

00:26:35.549 --> 00:26:40.200
the Dutch. All of these empires they're there

00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.440
they're on the skids right now They all went

00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:45.099
broke in the 20th century and the two world wars

00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:47.200
together really kicked their kick their finances

00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:48.559
out for one of them as well They all went broke

00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.500
fighting those two wars. They also were an economic

00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:52.900
decline Anyway, a lot of things happen there.

00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:55.079
The British had been an economic decline actually

00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:58.819
since 1900. Yeah And here's an interesting note.

00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.920
I'm going to kind of jump ahead in time a bit.

00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:04.480
After 1956, when the British Empire really started

00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:07.180
falling apart because of Suez. That's the Suez

00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:09.119
crisis. Yeah, we'll get into this. We'll get

00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.480
into this. We will explain what Suez actually

00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:14.960
is and why the British really got screwed off

00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.460
of this. They actually, in 1957, they decided

00:27:18.460 --> 00:27:22.000
to do an audit of, is the British Empire actually

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:27.180
profitable? It wasn't. If you look at the history

00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:30.119
of 20th century British politicians, they are

00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.700
the most illiterate lot in terms of economics

00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:36.119
that you can possibly find. They are constantly

00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:40.819
doing things that actually do not mitigate problems.

00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:44.480
They actually exacerbate them. And when you get

00:27:44.480 --> 00:28:03.059
to the 70s, they really exacerbate them. Let's

00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:06.960
get back to our situation here in Iran. So we're

00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.220
in like the late 1940s up to 1950. Yeah, we're

00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:14.119
about at 1950 here with this. So there is a desire

00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:17.359
on the part of the Iranians after the war is

00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:23.140
over and there is a real disgust with foreign

00:28:23.140 --> 00:28:28.259
intervention in their country. They wish to revise

00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:32.680
the 1901 agreement. The desire was to kind of

00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:34.579
come up with something that would be a little

00:28:34.579 --> 00:28:38.220
bit more fair and equitable. So this is around

00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:43.220
1949, and this is what was known as the Supplemental

00:28:43.220 --> 00:28:48.160
Agreement, and it's in July of 1949. And so this

00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.579
included some vague promises to improve working

00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:54.480
conditions, slightly reduce the share of territory

00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:57.759
that the British controlled. What it did not

00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.420
do is, again, this ability to inspect the books

00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:02.759
to determine the real extent of profits and what

00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.839
the Iranians were actually owned, and to increase

00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:08.640
the share of money paid to the Iranians. These

00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:15.759
were things that AIOC refused adamantly to allow.

00:29:16.299 --> 00:29:18.079
What they were owed, is that what you mean? What

00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:20.720
they were owed. What they were owed in terms

00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.240
of the agreement provided them with a percentage

00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:28.259
of the profits. The Iranians were always suspicious

00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:30.220
that they were not getting paid what they were

00:29:30.220 --> 00:29:32.319
actually owed under this term here. They wanted

00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:34.200
to have a sense of what the actual profits were.

00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:39.460
So the problem is with AIOC's kind of stonewalling.

00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:43.099
They're operating in a really unrealistic world

00:29:43.099 --> 00:29:48.299
in 1949. It is not 1849. Britain does not rule

00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:50.420
the waves. Britain is a country very much in

00:29:50.420 --> 00:29:54.420
decline after World War II. They do not have

00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:57.440
the standing to be able to do this. Nobody bothers

00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.359
to tell the British this, though, unfortunately.

00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.279
They were kind of like looking for the days of

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:05.960
Reza Shah, where public opinion just counts for

00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:09.339
nothing. Public opinion is actually driving a

00:30:09.339 --> 00:30:14.059
lot of these desires to revisit the agreements

00:30:14.059 --> 00:30:18.599
with AIOC. And I mean, it's kind of funny because

00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:21.480
the British, along with the Soviets, did remove

00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:24.940
Reza Shah. So you kind of like uncorked the bottle

00:30:24.940 --> 00:30:28.279
a little bit here in terms of... having your

00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:32.279
reliable tin pot dictator that you can like just

00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.180
go to and ask for favors. But they were worried

00:30:35.180 --> 00:30:37.319
that the tin pot dictator was cuddling up to

00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.000
Nazi Germany. So there were reasons for them

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.220
to do it. There are reasons, but I mean, you

00:30:42.220 --> 00:30:44.759
know, in terms of the post -war world, this is

00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.279
characteristic of the British. They are never

00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.579
thinking long -term. They're only thinking immediate.

00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.680
And they're always reacting. But as we said in

00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.140
the previous episodes, those fears were a bit

00:30:56.140 --> 00:30:59.160
overblown. Yes, they were. They were overblown.

00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:00.519
But I mean, I'm just trying to put the context.

00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.220
Oh, yeah. You're fighting World War II against

00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:04.319
Nazi Germany. Right. That's kind of going to

00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:06.180
cloud your judgment about a lot of other things.

00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:07.880
And it's a lot to ask to worry about, you know,

00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:09.920
how Iranians are going to feel a few years from

00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.140
now or those types of things. Right. I'm not

00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:14.720
excusing them, but I'm saying it's. It's understandable

00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:16.200
that things would have come out the way they

00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:18.720
did. Yes. I would say it is understandable if

00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.859
you're dealing with the Nazis, but you know,

00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:23.500
you do need to keep your eye on the ball. You

00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.559
know, and to your point, the United States did

00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.079
have a post -war vision. Yes. The British post

00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:29.500
-war vision was we're going to restore the empire.

00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:31.259
The American one was we're going to change the

00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:33.799
world into something different. Yes. Which is

00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.700
more equal and more fair and less colonial. And

00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:40.180
less unstable and less likely to lead to giant

00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:43.119
wars again. Yes. But that's all your topic. It

00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.079
is. You bring up a point that is kind of critical

00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:48.619
to where we're going with this. During World

00:31:48.619 --> 00:31:52.000
War II, this was a principal issue between Roosevelt

00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:55.779
and Churchill. Roosevelt was adamant, we are

00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:58.640
saving Great Britain. We are not saving the British

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.619
Empire by involving ourselves in World War II.

00:32:01.940 --> 00:32:06.559
And we do tend to paper over. And I admire both

00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.980
Roosevelt and Churchill here for various reasons,

00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:12.980
but they were totally at odds with each other

00:32:12.980 --> 00:32:16.180
throughout the war over this whole business about

00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:18.980
the British Empire and how much of that is going

00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:22.240
to remain after World War II. Being allies, even

00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:23.819
close allies, does not mean you have exactly

00:32:23.819 --> 00:32:27.299
the same strategic interests. Yes. And but, you

00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:29.680
know, in later years, I mean, they did get along

00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.299
well, but I mean, you know. They did have their

00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:37.759
conflicts, and they tended to paper them over

00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:42.220
because the main issue was the war, and they

00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:44.559
needed to win the war, and a lot of the stuff

00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.480
they felt they could sort out afterwards. So

00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:51.140
in terms of what was being negotiated, this supplemental

00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:54.359
agreement, the Iranian public was underwhelmed

00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:58.339
by this, and they actually campaigned. for the

00:32:58.339 --> 00:33:00.339
modulus not to ratify the agreement. The modulus

00:33:00.339 --> 00:33:03.400
has that power and ability to kind of reject

00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:05.779
agreements as we saw last time when the Soviets

00:33:05.779 --> 00:33:09.200
tried to get an agreement for oil exploration

00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.779
in the northern part of the country. And that

00:33:11.779 --> 00:33:14.720
agreement was the modulus had opposed it and

00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.410
it did not pass. What is going on inside the

00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:21.450
modulus is that Mossadegh and eight other lawmakers

00:33:21.450 --> 00:33:23.930
formed a kind of national front faction, that's

00:33:23.930 --> 00:33:26.470
what it was known as, to oppose even these minimal

00:33:26.470 --> 00:33:28.609
concessions, because this is not what they wanted.

00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:31.769
They wanted more power for Iranians, Iran for

00:33:31.769 --> 00:33:34.410
the Iranians, if we want to make this into a

00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:38.670
slogan. And the national front had ideas about

00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:40.990
promoting democracy, ending foreign domination,

00:33:41.430 --> 00:33:47.359
and nationalizing the oil. industry that the

00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.559
British had built up over the years. And was

00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:51.400
the National Front his political party, or was

00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.619
it a coalition? It's a faction. A faction. Coalition.

00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:57.240
Within the Modulus. Coalition of parties. Coalition

00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.539
of people, because we're only talking eight people,

00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:03.000
but there are eight influential people within

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.039
the Modulus. Including clergy. This really kind

00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:12.889
of encapsulates Mesodex. nationalist point of

00:34:12.889 --> 00:34:17.150
view. And I've seen different translations of

00:34:17.150 --> 00:34:21.030
what he called it from Farsi, but one of the

00:34:21.030 --> 00:34:23.789
translations is negative equilibrium. Another

00:34:23.789 --> 00:34:27.789
translation is anti -equilibrium. During the

00:34:27.789 --> 00:34:30.929
years of occupation, it was equilibrium between

00:34:30.929 --> 00:34:34.449
the British and the Russians and then later the

00:34:34.449 --> 00:34:37.690
Soviets. They were basically trying to balance

00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:41.690
those two powers. If they gave something to one,

00:34:41.949 --> 00:34:44.280
they would kind of give... the other one, something

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.400
similar. And Mezodek felt like that approach

00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.780
didn't work. And the only way that would work

00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:54.800
in Iran's favor was to keep them out. So negative

00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:59.219
equilibrium. And it was very much nationalism.

00:34:59.960 --> 00:35:03.800
And he was very dogged in his pursuit of putting

00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:07.760
Iran first, if you will. Yes. I think Germany,

00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:09.940
like you were saying about Germany, plays into

00:35:09.940 --> 00:35:11.780
that. I think that was part of the negative.

00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.159
equilibrium absolutely yeah germany they were

00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.500
during the war business during the war before

00:35:17.500 --> 00:35:20.239
the war And, you know, the accusation that they

00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:22.679
were totally aligned with Germany, I think, is

00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.940
a little overstated. Yes. They had business connections,

00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:28.440
and this was part of playing the big powers off

00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.639
of each other. And Germany was really the only

00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:32.880
big power that they had to play off against the

00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:35.579
British and the Soviets. Yeah, it wasn't so much

00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:39.280
that Reza Shah wanted to align himself or ally

00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:41.039
himself with Germany, but he was looking for

00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:43.929
something to counter the damn Brits. And Soviets

00:35:43.929 --> 00:35:46.670
who are constantly preying on the country. I

00:35:46.670 --> 00:35:48.469
think so. Maybe it wasn't the best choice on

00:35:48.469 --> 00:35:50.590
his part, but that's what he was trying to do.

00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:52.829
Zahidi was a sympathizer, but I don't know that

00:35:52.829 --> 00:35:55.449
most people were. I mean, you know, it's far

00:35:55.449 --> 00:35:59.650
away. And, you know, the whole context, the Iranian

00:35:59.650 --> 00:36:01.929
political context is so different from what we're

00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:05.309
talking about going on in Germany. So I kind

00:36:05.309 --> 00:36:07.570
of am willing to give him a pass on this and

00:36:07.570 --> 00:36:12.059
say that a lot of these. Not unlike what we're

00:36:12.059 --> 00:36:15.679
seeing with the Communist Party. You know, sort

00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.159
of fascist alignment becomes like a kind of scare

00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:20.980
tactic that people have before the war. Then

00:36:20.980 --> 00:36:23.480
after the war, they're all afraid about the communists.

00:36:23.539 --> 00:36:26.719
And this is not really a reality. This is not

00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.780
reality. This is your fears and being governed

00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:33.710
by your fears and not necessarily applying best

00:36:33.710 --> 00:36:37.670
practices to understanding Iran. I'm just thinking

00:36:37.670 --> 00:36:38.590
about what you're talking about, the negative

00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:41.369
equilibrium. At first it's kind of a weird idea

00:36:41.369 --> 00:36:43.650
when you first just say it that way. But I think

00:36:43.650 --> 00:36:46.119
based on what you're saying... It sounds like

00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:48.219
the idea before was an equilibrium in which you're

00:36:48.219 --> 00:36:50.380
giving things to each side, giving them more

00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:52.280
and more to keep them both happy and balance

00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.460
them. He's saying do the opposite, take away

00:36:54.460 --> 00:36:57.159
from both. Yes. To keep things balanced, but

00:36:57.159 --> 00:36:58.280
they're getting less and less and we're keeping

00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.460
more for ourselves. Nationalists. Exactly. And

00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:08.099
you see ideas of it that go out in later years,

00:37:08.139 --> 00:37:11.139
not exactly the same, and I don't want to put

00:37:11.139 --> 00:37:14.840
too fine a point on this, but you see... similar

00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:17.820
themes in the non -aligned movement that comes

00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:21.880
out later. And you see similar themes in the

00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:26.340
Islamic Republic when they say neither East nor

00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:31.300
West. So you see these similar ideas come out

00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:34.360
in later years. Not saying that they're pulling

00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.650
directly from Mosaddegh, but... But those same

00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:39.869
ideas are coming out. Well, you know, you do

00:37:39.869 --> 00:37:42.789
have at the same time, you do have the rise of

00:37:42.789 --> 00:37:45.769
the non -aligned movement in the 50s where people

00:37:45.769 --> 00:37:50.809
are trying to not pick a side. And in some cases,

00:37:50.969 --> 00:37:54.230
this is this is just sort of just stay out of

00:37:54.230 --> 00:37:56.389
the fight. The other is to keep your options

00:37:56.389 --> 00:37:59.170
open so that you can you can work both sides

00:37:59.170 --> 00:38:02.300
against the middle. Exactly. Yeah. In terms of

00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:04.260
what's going on in the Majlis, the Shah sought

00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:06.360
to regain the initiative by appointing the Army

00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:08.400
Chief of Staff. Now, I don't know whether I'm

00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.079
going to butcher this name here, ladies, but

00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:15.980
Ali Razmara. Razmara. Razmara. I'm not sure.

00:38:16.300 --> 00:38:20.119
As Prime Minister. So the fact that this guy

00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:22.460
is being brought in, I mean, the Shah is well

00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:26.440
within his rights to do this, but Mosaddegh opposes

00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:31.650
this move in the Majlis. And he wanted to use

00:38:31.650 --> 00:38:34.769
the modulus, you know, advising consent rule

00:38:34.769 --> 00:38:39.739
to kind of reject this. Now, despite this opposition,

00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:45.300
Ras Mara is brought in and selected. So Ras Mara

00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:49.500
attempted to gain further concessions, but all

00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:51.760
he could gain in addition to the supplement,

00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:53.519
which we've discussed. which we've already gone

00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:56.500
over, are vague promises to train Iranians for

00:38:56.500 --> 00:38:58.380
administrative roles. These are concessions from

00:38:58.380 --> 00:38:59.760
the British we're talking about. Concessions

00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:04.079
from AIOC. We should be clear on that. He's not

00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:05.579
negotiating with the British government. He's

00:39:05.579 --> 00:39:08.679
negotiating with a company that is there. So

00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.820
things that they could not do, Iran is not allowed

00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:15.800
to purchase discounted oil or any refined product

00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:17.860
at the same discounts that's offered to the British.

00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:23.539
AIOC only agreed to provide free medical treatment

00:39:23.539 --> 00:39:26.920
for Mosaday, whose continued calls for nationalization

00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:30.679
they regarded as insane. So I put this in there.

00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.639
This is a statement that they made, but it's

00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:36.119
like they are not treating this in a serious

00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.059
manner. They are looking at the person who is

00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:42.059
basically... calling for the nationalization

00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:46.400
of them as just insane. There's no real grievance

00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.260
or anything like that that they need to deal

00:39:48.260 --> 00:39:51.079
with. They just need to, like, get rid of this

00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:54.519
crazy guy who's trying to take what is rightfully

00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:59.000
theirs. Yeah, he's also kind of sickly, for lack

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.260
of a better word, and it feels really... insulting

00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:06.599
to me. They're offering him medical care, and

00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.599
he does. He had tuberculosis as a child, and

00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:13.659
he had stomach ailments all his life. He would

00:40:13.659 --> 00:40:16.719
pass out during speeches, all kinds of things,

00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.179
and I think they were making a lot out of that.

00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:21.929
Well, I mean, this is part of the kind of whispering

00:40:21.929 --> 00:40:24.869
campaign that they would be. They would go into

00:40:24.869 --> 00:40:27.530
overdrive once he becomes prime minister. But

00:40:27.530 --> 00:40:29.489
they were offering medical help, but they weren't

00:40:29.489 --> 00:40:31.570
really being very nice. Yes, they were actually

00:40:31.570 --> 00:40:33.389
being insulting when they're offering this medical

00:40:33.389 --> 00:40:38.489
help. So this, I think we can all say that AIOC

00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:42.650
is just totally tone deaf about this. So the

00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:46.280
Iranians are actually looking. Abroad at other

00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.159
exploration agreements in Venezuela and Saudi

00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:52.099
Arabia where the host country received a far

00:40:52.099 --> 00:40:55.239
greater share of the profits and These are all

00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:58.880
operated by Americans, not British. So we talked

00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:01.539
a couple episodes Well the first and second episodes

00:41:01.539 --> 00:41:03.539
in the good the series we spent some time talking

00:41:03.539 --> 00:41:07.380
about the discovery of oil in Iran and its exploitation

00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:12.940
by what became a AIOC yeah, we were wondering

00:41:12.940 --> 00:41:16.960
when oil was Discovered in the in in in the Middle

00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.480
East and and I got some more information on that

00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:24.349
Iran started producing in 1909 and the only oil

00:41:24.349 --> 00:41:27.730
produced in the Middle East at all up until 1932

00:41:27.730 --> 00:41:30.170
was in Iran none of the other oil had been discovered

00:41:30.170 --> 00:41:32.909
yet let alone Exploited in Saudi Arabia in 32

00:41:32.909 --> 00:41:36.349
right now Bahrain Bahrain An American company

00:41:36.349 --> 00:41:38.809
found oil in Bahrain in 1932 and that was the

00:41:38.809 --> 00:41:41.599
first oil ever discovered outside of Iran So

00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:44.079
it shows you the monopoly that Iran had on oil

00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.380
and that the British had on oil from the Middle

00:41:47.380 --> 00:41:50.900
East. As Sharon found out a couple episodes ago,

00:41:51.019 --> 00:41:53.699
the oil was first discovered in Saudi Arabia

00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:57.420
in 1938. That was, of course, a much bigger find

00:41:57.420 --> 00:42:00.679
than anything found in Bahrain. Anyway, so that's

00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:03.039
the details on that. But there is a completely

00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:06.440
different approach to oil profits taken by the

00:42:06.440 --> 00:42:08.539
American companies in Venezuela and Saudi Arabia

00:42:08.539 --> 00:42:11.539
than what the British did in... in Iran. And

00:42:11.539 --> 00:42:15.019
Venezuela was the first, actually, to get a better

00:42:15.019 --> 00:42:18.000
deal. So, in the 30s, there were... And that's

00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.519
Standard Oil. It was... Venezuela was Standard

00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:26.460
Oil. And what happened was, in the 30s, there

00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:28.519
were concessions made, right, in these various

00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:30.880
countries, in the interwar period, anyway, certainly

00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.280
by the 30s. And the concessions that the Americans

00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:36.909
had in Venezuela and Saudi Arabia... actually

00:42:36.909 --> 00:42:38.869
weren't that great for Venezuela or Saudi Arabia.

00:42:38.889 --> 00:42:40.909
There was a deal that we can go explore for oil

00:42:40.909 --> 00:42:42.809
there. If we find any, you're going to get a

00:42:42.809 --> 00:42:46.670
cut of it, that kind of thing. But the cut really

00:42:46.670 --> 00:42:48.070
wasn't that great. It might have been something

00:42:48.070 --> 00:42:49.889
like 20 % or something. It was maybe comparable

00:42:49.889 --> 00:42:52.449
to what the British were giving the Iranians.

00:42:52.909 --> 00:42:57.179
But in 1948, Venezuela passed a law which essentially

00:42:57.179 --> 00:42:59.260
said, you're going to give us 50 % of the profits

00:42:59.260 --> 00:43:00.980
or we're going to nationalize the oil companies

00:43:00.980 --> 00:43:04.119
here. Now, the American approach wasn't to go

00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:06.110
argue with them about that. I mean, sure, we

00:43:06.110 --> 00:43:08.130
negotiated, but the American approach was basically

00:43:08.130 --> 00:43:11.550
to say what Standard Oil said was, all right,

00:43:11.630 --> 00:43:14.030
we can't really stop you from nationalizing it,

00:43:14.090 --> 00:43:15.690
so what we need to do is make you happy so you

00:43:15.690 --> 00:43:18.170
won't. So let's make a deal that you're happy

00:43:18.170 --> 00:43:20.230
with, that we're happy with, win -win kind of

00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:22.429
thing. And the Venezuelans wound up negotiating

00:43:22.429 --> 00:43:25.769
a 50 -50 split, and that became kind of a baseline

00:43:25.769 --> 00:43:28.210
for international oil transactions after that.

00:43:28.250 --> 00:43:29.670
Other countries said, why don't we get a 50 -50

00:43:29.670 --> 00:43:32.530
split, right? The American approach there basically

00:43:32.530 --> 00:43:35.130
was, I don't want a bunch of instability. I don't

00:43:35.130 --> 00:43:37.050
want to fight with anybody. I don't want to argue

00:43:37.050 --> 00:43:39.570
over a few dollars here, a few dollars there.

00:43:39.789 --> 00:43:41.869
What I want to do is have a stable income off

00:43:41.869 --> 00:43:44.349
into the future, a stable industry here in Venezuela.

00:43:44.889 --> 00:43:47.030
The best way to do that is make you happy, you

00:43:47.030 --> 00:43:48.650
make me happy. We'll all just keep doing business

00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:51.190
with each other. That worked in Venezuela. In

00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:53.829
fact, Venezuela wound up being the highest per

00:43:53.829 --> 00:43:55.570
capita income of any Latin American country for

00:43:55.570 --> 00:43:56.969
a while. They were quite a wealthy country until

00:43:56.969 --> 00:43:59.150
everything went disastrously wrong for them in

00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:01.989
the 21st century. Saudi Arabia looked at the

00:44:01.989 --> 00:44:04.530
Venezuelan deal and said, we'd like a deal too,

00:44:04.570 --> 00:44:05.829
or else we're going to nationalize the industry.

00:44:06.130 --> 00:44:09.289
So I think it was Standard Oil of California

00:44:09.289 --> 00:44:11.150
was the company that was there, I think, SoCal.

00:44:11.889 --> 00:44:14.269
And they had created a subsidiary called Aramco,

00:44:14.469 --> 00:44:16.869
Arab American Oil, Arabian American Oil Company,

00:44:16.969 --> 00:44:21.260
Aramco. And Aramco took the same approach. All

00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:23.559
right, let's make a deal. And they did make a

00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:25.739
deal where Saudi wound up, the Saudis wound up

00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:27.840
with, I think, something like 50%, 50 -50 split

00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:30.510
as well, based on the Venezuelan model. And that

00:44:30.510 --> 00:44:33.309
also, that went actually very amicably. Eventually,

00:44:33.530 --> 00:44:35.949
Saudi Arabia bought out everybody's shares, but

00:44:35.949 --> 00:44:38.530
it was done on an amicable basis. And Aramco

00:44:38.530 --> 00:44:41.550
became Saudi Aramco in, I guess, 1980. At least

00:44:41.550 --> 00:44:54.449
that's what it's called now. The Saudis took

00:44:54.449 --> 00:44:58.230
over all of their oil in an amicable way by 1980

00:44:58.230 --> 00:45:01.829
by paying everybody else off for their share

00:45:01.829 --> 00:45:05.550
of it. It wasn't seized. So that model worked

00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:07.329
in those two places. But the British took a very

00:45:07.329 --> 00:45:10.809
different approach. And their approach was, well,

00:45:10.889 --> 00:45:13.670
their thinking was, this isn't Iranian oil. It's

00:45:13.670 --> 00:45:17.789
oil from Iran. It's British oil. Why? The British

00:45:17.789 --> 00:45:20.309
found it. The British were the ones who were

00:45:20.309 --> 00:45:23.710
extracting it from the ground. The British are

00:45:23.710 --> 00:45:26.070
the ones who are refining it. The British are

00:45:26.070 --> 00:45:27.429
the ones who are selling it. The Iranians just

00:45:27.429 --> 00:45:29.889
happen to live here. Right? It's not their oil.

00:45:30.030 --> 00:45:31.449
It's our oil. They just happen to live in the

00:45:31.449 --> 00:45:33.550
same place the oil is in. That was their attitude.

00:45:34.940 --> 00:45:38.920
And because they took that attitude, they didn't

00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:41.739
want to concede an inch to the Iranians in anything.

00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.820
They said, you're taking our oil from us, our

00:45:43.820 --> 00:45:45.599
oil that we pulled out of your country's ground.

00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:49.260
You're taking away our oil. And, you know, Marshall,

00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:50.440
you were saying that they wouldn't let them look

00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:51.880
at the books or anything. Well, you can kind

00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:53.179
of see if you have that attitude, why would you

00:45:53.179 --> 00:45:54.400
want these people to look at your books? It's

00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.679
none of your business what we do with our oil

00:45:56.679 --> 00:45:58.239
that we took out of the ground in your country.

00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:02.010
Pretty much was their attitude. And Dean Acheson,

00:46:02.070 --> 00:46:05.150
who was Truman's Secretary of State, he tried

00:46:05.150 --> 00:46:07.210
to do some negotiating. And he finally threw

00:46:07.210 --> 00:46:09.409
his hands up and he said that there was no point

00:46:09.409 --> 00:46:11.130
trying to talk to the British about it because

00:46:11.130 --> 00:46:13.769
he said the British attitude about oil in Iran

00:46:13.769 --> 00:46:16.449
was rule or ruin. Yeah, you know either either

00:46:16.449 --> 00:46:18.070
we control all of it or we'll just let the whole

00:46:18.070 --> 00:46:19.949
thing just fall apart was their attitude and

00:46:19.949 --> 00:46:21.650
and yeah Very different from the American companies

00:46:21.650 --> 00:46:23.489
who just said let's make a deal. Let's keep the

00:46:23.489 --> 00:46:25.489
thing going Let's all make money off this not

00:46:25.489 --> 00:46:27.690
the British. They wanted control over it Yes,

00:46:27.789 --> 00:46:30.429
and I know and no sass no talk back about it.

00:46:30.449 --> 00:46:31.590
What's kind of their attitude there? They're

00:46:31.590 --> 00:46:36.789
also because of it's after the war and And Britain's

00:46:36.789 --> 00:46:39.210
more or less bankrupt at this point. This is

00:46:39.210 --> 00:46:42.110
the one of the few reliable sources of income

00:46:42.110 --> 00:46:45.699
that is supporting the British government, and

00:46:45.699 --> 00:46:48.900
its imperial pretenses at the time. And the Royal

00:46:48.900 --> 00:46:52.099
Navy. Well, it was powering the Royal Navy, but

00:46:52.099 --> 00:46:55.920
again, the company is 51 % owned by the government,

00:46:55.980 --> 00:47:00.559
so it's providing a nice chunk of revenue. I

00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:02.460
mean, I would say that there are distinctions

00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:06.679
between the company, which is hugely bigoted

00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:12.840
and transient. The government is... under labor

00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:17.159
is slightly less, but not that much less, because

00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:20.059
they're keeping their eye on the money. Now,

00:47:20.139 --> 00:47:23.019
it's interesting to note for me that Britain

00:47:23.469 --> 00:47:26.670
is nationalizing all sorts of things over within

00:47:26.670 --> 00:47:29.550
its country at the time. So in terms of this

00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:32.829
being some sort of amoral act that most today

00:47:32.829 --> 00:47:38.000
is... suggesting here. This is something they're

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:40.760
doing in their own country. They see no problem

00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:42.960
with nationalizing the railroads, the coal mines,

00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.500
or anything like that. They do have a problem

00:47:45.500 --> 00:47:48.559
with Iranians nationalizing the oil industry

00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:54.719
in their own country, which strikes me as kind

00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:59.219
of a strange example of cognitive dissonance,

00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:03.369
if ever I've heard one. The the British are just

00:48:03.369 --> 00:48:06.530
like totally tone -deaf on this issue Well, you

00:48:06.530 --> 00:48:08.130
know another thing we should probably mention

00:48:08.130 --> 00:48:10.289
is that there actually was a revision to the

00:48:10.289 --> 00:48:13.409
original 1901 deal that was made in 1933 Yes,

00:48:13.590 --> 00:48:15.670
razor shot canceled the original deal create

00:48:15.670 --> 00:48:18.230
made a new deal Which did some things in terms

00:48:18.230 --> 00:48:20.590
of changing the actual the name change the name

00:48:20.590 --> 00:48:22.329
that changed the boundaries of where they could

00:48:22.329 --> 00:48:24.929
explore There were details in there, but it extended

00:48:24.929 --> 00:48:28.489
the agreement for another 60 years. Yes, so they

00:48:28.489 --> 00:48:31.480
that agreement wouldn't have expired until 1993.

00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:34.659
Yes. And the British expected this to stay in

00:48:34.659 --> 00:48:37.659
place until 1993. Well, I mean, you know, Hong

00:48:37.659 --> 00:48:40.500
Kong, the lease on Hong Kong expired in 1999.

00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.480
So it was something like that. And by the way,

00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:45.760
in the Saudi example, the U .S. government even

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:47.940
got involved in it because the U .S. government

00:48:47.940 --> 00:48:49.800
and Aramco talked about it. And Aramco said,

00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:50.760
well, you know, we're going to have to pay the

00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:54.880
Saudis like $30 million in taxes now to do business

00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:56.719
that we didn't have to pay before, right? To

00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:00.760
do business in Saudi Arabia. And so what Truman

00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:02.400
administration came up with was something called

00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:04.840
the golden gimmick, where essentially what they

00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:09.889
did is they forgave Aramco's taxes owed to the

00:49:09.889 --> 00:49:11.329
United States government to give them a tax credit

00:49:11.329 --> 00:49:14.030
for that same amount to match whatever they would

00:49:14.030 --> 00:49:15.789
have to give the Saudis. So in effect, you were

00:49:15.789 --> 00:49:17.630
transferring the U .S. Treasury into the Saudi

00:49:17.630 --> 00:49:19.730
Treasury, and Aramco walked away not paying.

00:49:20.139 --> 00:49:21.639
anything extra than it would have otherwise.

00:49:22.219 --> 00:49:24.320
So the Americans are much more creative about

00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.280
how to keep the business deal going. The British

00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.599
were not at all. Well, we also had larger resources

00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:31.320
to work with. I mean, we're not in as straightened

00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:33.059
a condition as the British. They were already

00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:37.380
living off of Marshall Plan aid. I didn't give

00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:42.960
them anything. Not you. Yeah, they were bankrupt.

00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:45.940
They were miserable. The war. The war had done

00:49:45.940 --> 00:49:48.019
that. And there's another aspect of this, too,

00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:49.559
by the way, that we do have to consider, which

00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.480
is that the British were very concerned that

00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:53.920
if they gave in to, for lack of a better word,

00:49:53.980 --> 00:49:56.960
the locals and any one of their holdings of their

00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:58.679
empires around the world and gave in to anything

00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.599
they wanted to, then that would tell everybody

00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:01.900
else in the other parts of their empire that

00:50:01.900 --> 00:50:03.139
they could get away with demanding things as

00:50:03.139 --> 00:50:06.130
well. That is and that is exactly what's going

00:50:06.130 --> 00:50:08.570
to happen and where am I not here? Yeah, and

00:50:08.570 --> 00:50:10.789
where might that end? Yes, you know So you have

00:50:10.789 --> 00:50:12.670
to put your foot down and not let anybody get

00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:14.409
away with anything in any part of your empire

00:50:14.409 --> 00:50:16.289
anywhere your interests are also all get ideas

00:50:16.289 --> 00:50:19.809
and You know, okay. How did that work out for

00:50:19.809 --> 00:50:23.519
them? Well? They did have I would say an opportunity

00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:27.539
here to avoid Nationalization and that's with

00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:34.130
rosemary rosemary as Mara Ross Mara, okay But

00:50:34.130 --> 00:50:38.590
he is assassinated in 1951. And this sets in

00:50:38.590 --> 00:50:41.889
a sort of chain of events. This was by the group

00:50:41.889 --> 00:50:44.030
that you all were talking about earlier. Yeah,

00:50:44.050 --> 00:50:48.329
by the activist part, the devotees of Islam,

00:50:48.630 --> 00:50:51.449
the activist part. Fedayeen. Fedayeen Islam,

00:50:51.989 --> 00:50:55.420
maybe. Yes. What she said, yes. Yeah. Were they

00:50:55.420 --> 00:50:58.619
a conservative branch that wanted... Extremist.

00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:00.960
Extremist. Yeah, I don't think representative

00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.000
at all. No, not representative, very extremist.

00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:09.260
Yeah. His passing kind of like, you know, takes

00:51:09.260 --> 00:51:12.679
from the scene someone who was actually talking

00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:17.000
about compromising, not trying to avoid nationalization.

00:51:17.949 --> 00:51:21.329
as an issue and trying to keep the public satisfied,

00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:27.030
but also to kind of not alienate AIOC from the

00:51:27.030 --> 00:51:29.849
process here. They should have made a deal sooner.

00:51:30.030 --> 00:51:33.969
They didn't. And so what happened is Mosaddegh

00:51:33.969 --> 00:51:37.849
actually becomes prime minister after a fashion,

00:51:38.010 --> 00:51:41.610
after a series of events stemming from this assassination

00:51:41.610 --> 00:51:46.079
here. He is actually coming up with As prime

00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:49.179
minister, he has a whole series of things that

00:51:49.179 --> 00:51:51.139
he wants to fund. Unemployment compensation,

00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:54.500
peasants being liberated from feudal conditions

00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:58.199
when they worked on large private estates, a

00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:00.800
20 % tax height on the revenue from landlords.

00:52:01.820 --> 00:52:04.460
And this is there to fund improvements in rural

00:52:04.460 --> 00:52:07.719
housing, creation of public baths, which, you

00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:12.519
know, when you don't have... plumbing as widespread.

00:52:12.619 --> 00:52:16.360
This is kind of a sanitary measure. And also

00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:19.099
the purchase of pesticides, which in the 50s

00:52:19.099 --> 00:52:22.320
were considered kind of miracle devices for people

00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.960
in agriculture. It was not necessarily a negative.

00:52:26.019 --> 00:52:28.159
It didn't have negative connotations as it later

00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:30.980
would in the 60s. You could prevent famines.

00:52:31.099 --> 00:52:34.320
Yes. For example, that was the thinking. Now,

00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:38.099
in addition to this, One of the things that he

00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:42.380
wanted to do with nationalization is that he

00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:45.360
wanted to basically grab the entirety of the

00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:50.039
oil revenue and eliminating the power of the

00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:53.239
British company and promote economic and political

00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:57.440
independence for Iran. He also wanted to take

00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.900
25 % of the net profits to be set aside to meet

00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:03.760
any legitimate claims of the company for compensation.

00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:07.500
He was also, even though he was talking about

00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:12.440
taking over the company, he did not wish to expel

00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:16.099
any of the experts in the country and shut down

00:53:16.099 --> 00:53:18.440
the oil installations. This was something that

00:53:18.440 --> 00:53:22.460
the British were actually stating was part of

00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:24.900
his agenda, part of his crazy agenda from this

00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:29.619
crazy man. You know, and I mean, this is probably

00:53:29.619 --> 00:53:34.130
genuine. Most of it can be sometimes more of

00:53:34.130 --> 00:53:36.110
a moderate than he's actually portrayed as being.

00:53:37.250 --> 00:53:41.030
But he's also a realist here because Iran does

00:53:41.030 --> 00:53:43.289
not have the expertise to basically run something

00:53:43.289 --> 00:53:46.170
as complicated as Abadan. They're going to need

00:53:46.170 --> 00:53:49.889
to keep in with the Westerners. So there is somewhat

00:53:49.889 --> 00:53:52.369
of a conciliatory. Yes, we're going to seize

00:53:52.369 --> 00:53:55.429
it, but we will seize the industry. But we are

00:53:55.429 --> 00:53:58.429
also going to compensate you for it. And they

00:53:58.429 --> 00:54:01.780
don't have the expertise because. Because AIOC

00:54:01.780 --> 00:54:04.480
was not training the Iranians like they said

00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:07.280
they were going to. Yes, they had not done this,

00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:11.079
and this was going to be an issue. And again,

00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:14.780
nobody's recognizing that there are, I think,

00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:17.519
even at this juncture, there are compromises

00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:20.219
that you can make. There are things you can do.

00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:23.340
However, the idea of rolling back nationalization,

00:54:23.460 --> 00:54:28.650
this is wildly popular with... the Iranian people,

00:54:28.889 --> 00:54:31.949
and they have had a negative attitude towards

00:54:31.949 --> 00:54:36.289
the British, the British Empire, AIOC, all of

00:54:36.289 --> 00:54:40.610
them in not that particular order. But Mosaddegh,

00:54:40.630 --> 00:54:43.949
because he did this, he wasn't really able to

00:54:43.949 --> 00:54:47.449
go anywhere. He was like a superstar. People

00:54:47.449 --> 00:54:51.869
would mob his house. He was a very, very self

00:54:51.869 --> 00:54:56.829
-effacing. almost ascetic kind of attitude towards

00:54:56.829 --> 00:55:00.809
things. He was not used to this sort of behavior

00:55:00.809 --> 00:55:03.849
by the population here. Marshall, I'm a little

00:55:03.849 --> 00:55:07.090
bit confused. So you said that, so nationalization

00:55:07.090 --> 00:55:10.329
was popular among the Iranians? It was incredibly

00:55:10.329 --> 00:55:13.349
popular. It was popular, okay. Very, very, very

00:55:13.349 --> 00:55:15.829
popular. This was something, for them it was

00:55:15.829 --> 00:55:19.010
like, it wasn't just an economic issue, it was

00:55:19.010 --> 00:55:23.019
a... patriotic issue, as an issue of regaining

00:55:23.019 --> 00:55:26.239
control of the country and expelling the foreigners

00:55:26.239 --> 00:55:29.579
that had kind of controlled their destiny. This

00:55:29.579 --> 00:55:32.039
was something that they had had to face for many

00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:36.400
years, as we've discussed. And so this was not

00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.800
terribly popular with the Iranians to lose this

00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:41.860
level of sovereignty. That's absolutely true.

00:55:41.980 --> 00:55:43.260
And, but there was, there was a big economic

00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:44.940
factor here as well. They wanted to get a good

00:55:44.940 --> 00:55:46.539
deal, like what they thought was a good deal,

00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:48.420
like the Saudis and the Venezuelans had gotten.

00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:50.519
Yes. That'd be a lot more money for the country

00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:52.039
and they, they could use the money. So there

00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:54.780
was that too. In turn, I mean, there, there is,

00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:57.440
you know, both with Reza Shah and also with Moshe,

00:55:57.460 --> 00:56:01.059
there is a desire to modernize just what you

00:56:01.059 --> 00:56:03.880
modernized and how you modernized. That's kind

00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:06.159
of, it's a question of what your priorities are.

00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:09.239
But there is a desire to move the country ahead

00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:11.440
and move the country into the 20th century by

00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:13.539
both of them. They both wanted to make sure the

00:56:13.539 --> 00:56:15.599
country was unified. Yes. They're both nationalists

00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.179
in that sense. Yes. As far as how the Americans

00:56:19.179 --> 00:56:22.119
are looking at this, Dean Acheson, who we've

00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:23.840
mentioned before, he's the U .S. Secretary of

00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:26.599
State under Truman. Truman administration is

00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:31.550
still in power. His quote about AIOC is, never

00:56:31.550 --> 00:56:36.050
had so few lost so much so stupidly or so fast.

00:56:36.389 --> 00:56:40.090
That was his take on when Mossadegh nationalized

00:56:40.090 --> 00:56:46.369
the oil industry. It's probably worth mentioning

00:56:46.369 --> 00:56:50.469
that in December 1951, Mossadegh, not Truman,

00:56:50.670 --> 00:56:53.869
not Stalin, not Mao, was Time Magazine's Man

00:56:53.869 --> 00:56:56.699
of the Year. meaning he's the figure who dominated

00:56:56.699 --> 00:56:58.880
the news beyond anyone else for that year. That's

00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:04.400
the criteria that time sets for this. In terms

00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:08.119
of what the British did, they were just incandescent

00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:10.400
with rage, both the government and the company.

00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:13.579
They are trying all sorts of solutions involving

00:57:13.579 --> 00:57:17.480
the United Nations, the Hague. Nobody really

00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:21.320
wants to get involved in this. Acheson is basically

00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:24.719
urging the British to accept the fact of nationalization

00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:28.260
if for no other reason than they're going to

00:57:28.260 --> 00:57:31.820
get something out of this if they go along with

00:57:31.820 --> 00:57:35.039
understanding the realities of the time. Otherwise,

00:57:35.099 --> 00:57:38.489
they're going to get nothing. So just like the

00:57:38.489 --> 00:57:41.230
Shah did, Mosaddegh made his own visit to the

00:57:41.230 --> 00:57:45.829
United States at the end of 1951. And this would

00:57:45.829 --> 00:57:50.690
be around the late part of the year. when officials

00:57:50.690 --> 00:57:53.050
addressed the United Nations. And so he made

00:57:53.050 --> 00:57:56.449
his case to the United Nations. The visit went

00:57:56.449 --> 00:57:58.969
rather well, and he ended up extending his visit

00:57:58.969 --> 00:58:01.889
by three weeks, which is kind of unprecedented

00:58:01.889 --> 00:58:06.389
for a ruler to give up that much time. But he

00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:09.170
was actually being fairly effective, at least

00:58:09.170 --> 00:58:10.969
in his mind. So how long was he here? Like four

00:58:10.969 --> 00:58:12.989
weeks or something? Yeah. Wow. And this is...

00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:16.519
Just an indication of just how important the

00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:18.360
relationship with the United States was viewed

00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:20.380
by him. I have a picture of him touching the

00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:24.219
Liberty Bell. Yes, Philadelphia. Yes. So he did

00:58:24.219 --> 00:58:27.940
do a big tour. He sought to raise his profile.

00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:31.179
Again, this is the United States is still viewed

00:58:31.179 --> 00:58:34.280
as the third way. like what we talked about in

00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.519
our first episode as being this area that was

00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:40.619
not necessarily as... A third way between Russia

00:58:40.619 --> 00:58:43.840
and Britain, later the Soviet Union and Britain.

00:58:43.900 --> 00:58:45.960
We were the non -predatory great power that was

00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:48.320
an inspiration, whereas those two were imperial

00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:50.699
predatory. Yes, who were just exploiting the

00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:54.389
country. Unlike, say, you know, you mentioned

00:58:54.389 --> 00:58:57.489
going to visit the Liberty Vale. Unlike, say,

00:58:57.670 --> 00:59:01.730
the Shah, the Shah ended up bringing over all

00:59:01.730 --> 00:59:04.769
sorts of, like, antiques and things to bribe

00:59:04.769 --> 00:59:08.010
foreign officials, US officials. The United States

00:59:08.010 --> 00:59:10.449
sought to use this as an occasion to broker a

00:59:10.449 --> 00:59:13.329
deal between Iran and Great Britain, which even

00:59:13.329 --> 00:59:17.010
considered the right of the Iranians to nationalize

00:59:17.010 --> 00:59:20.190
its oil industry. They did not feel the Iranians

00:59:20.190 --> 00:59:22.929
had this right to do this because it wasn't theirs.

00:59:23.489 --> 00:59:25.349
The British felt they did not have the right.

00:59:25.469 --> 00:59:29.570
Exactly. Now, regardless of... the failure to

00:59:29.570 --> 00:59:32.869
achieve any sort of progress in resolving the

00:59:32.869 --> 00:59:36.710
differences between the British and the Iranians.

00:59:37.510 --> 00:59:40.889
Mosaddegh was greeted rapturously when he went

00:59:40.889 --> 00:59:44.670
to Cairo. The British had been rather heavy -handed

00:59:44.670 --> 00:59:49.809
in Egypt, as we will see, and he was given all

00:59:49.809 --> 00:59:52.929
sorts of a huge greeting at the airport. There

00:59:52.929 --> 00:59:55.369
were no direct flights between, say, New York

00:59:55.369 --> 00:59:58.480
and Tehran. But he was greeted by all sorts of

00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:01.760
people turning out to see him. And this is only

01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:04.579
overshadowed by the even greater response that

01:00:04.579 --> 01:00:09.039
he received by the people when he returned to

01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:13.320
Tehran. It was very popular in the world to oppose

01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:16.400
Great Britain, the leading imperialist power.

01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:20.059
So the reception that he got in Egypt is interesting

01:00:20.059 --> 01:00:23.079
because for those who don't know, Egypt had been

01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:27.070
a British protectorate from 1882 to 1922. And

01:00:27.070 --> 01:00:31.519
in 1922, it became a constitutional monarchy.

01:00:31.940 --> 01:00:34.579
But it wasn't all that independent yet because

01:00:34.579 --> 01:00:37.719
the British retained control over Egypt's foreign

01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:41.039
relations, defense, imperial communications,

01:00:41.300 --> 01:00:46.039
which included the Suez Canal, and Sudan, which

01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:50.019
is right to the south of Egypt. And Egypt didn't

01:00:50.019 --> 01:00:52.780
gain full independence until 1952. So at the

01:00:52.780 --> 01:00:56.920
time Mossadegh is visiting, they're on the verge

01:00:56.920 --> 01:01:00.260
of achieving independence, not quite yet. And

01:01:00.260 --> 01:01:03.139
him getting that big reception shows you where

01:01:03.139 --> 01:01:05.300
Middle Easterners' minds are at this time and

01:01:05.300 --> 01:01:07.239
what he represents to them, I think it's fair

01:01:07.239 --> 01:01:09.940
to say. Nasser was very inspired by Mosaddegh.

01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:13.579
Yes. I would like to just give a shout -out to

01:01:13.579 --> 01:01:16.579
something. I'm going to go down, and this is

01:01:16.579 --> 01:01:19.340
kind of a tangent. If you really want to get

01:01:19.340 --> 01:01:22.300
a sense of how the British are regarded in Egypt,

01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:25.349
and I would say this could apply to the... Middle

01:01:25.349 --> 01:01:28.809
East as a whole. There is a marvelous book. It's

01:01:28.809 --> 01:01:31.789
called the Cairo Trilogy. It's by a guy named

01:01:31.789 --> 01:01:34.650
Mahfouz. He is the first Nobel laureate to write

01:01:34.650 --> 01:01:39.130
in Arabic. This book basically has a whole litany

01:01:39.130 --> 01:01:41.530
of grievances against the British by the Egyptians.

01:01:41.670 --> 01:01:44.429
I wish there was an equivalent, if there is an

01:01:44.429 --> 01:01:48.510
equivalent in Farsi, that is one of these long

01:01:48.510 --> 01:01:51.010
family sagas that talks about the history of

01:01:51.010 --> 01:01:53.809
the place. I would love to hear about that from

01:01:53.809 --> 01:02:10.670
anybody and I would love to read it. To move

01:02:10.670 --> 01:02:14.269
on here, I'm curious about just how Mosaddegh

01:02:14.269 --> 01:02:18.349
was regarded back then and what his reputation

01:02:18.349 --> 01:02:21.809
would be now. I mean, he is kind of seen as eccentric

01:02:21.809 --> 01:02:25.909
or... Yeah, I think the eccentricity was played

01:02:25.909 --> 01:02:29.650
up by his enemies. For example, the British like

01:02:29.650 --> 01:02:32.650
to call him Weeping Willie. for breaking out

01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:36.250
in tears during his very eloquent sermons. He

01:02:36.250 --> 01:02:39.349
was a great orator. And this wouldn't have been

01:02:39.349 --> 01:02:42.389
considered eccentric among Iranians because Iran

01:02:42.389 --> 01:02:48.320
had the Shia tradition of very emotional sermons

01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:51.400
and so on. It wouldn't have been that unusual

01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:55.599
for a speaker to come to tears during a talk.

01:02:55.880 --> 01:02:58.820
But I suppose this is 1951 when Western men didn't

01:02:58.820 --> 01:03:02.409
cry in public. In the West. There's probably

01:03:02.409 --> 01:03:05.550
a cultural difference there. That's exactly the

01:03:05.550 --> 01:03:07.650
point I was going to make, is a misunderstanding

01:03:07.650 --> 01:03:11.269
between cultures. And I think that's something

01:03:11.269 --> 01:03:13.510
that we've seen play out over and over again

01:03:13.510 --> 01:03:16.670
between the West and Iran, is not understanding

01:03:16.670 --> 01:03:21.230
the cultural differences and how... things of

01:03:21.230 --> 01:03:25.030
language and nuance come across or don't come

01:03:25.030 --> 01:03:28.989
across when they are interacting together. So

01:03:28.989 --> 01:03:31.989
things that would be perfectly normal to this

01:03:31.989 --> 01:03:37.079
Iranian Shia audience may not. work well when

01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:40.519
you're faced with this British stiff upper lip

01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:44.619
kind of audience. Or even an American audience,

01:03:44.780 --> 01:03:47.460
we're known as being much more effusive, but

01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:53.039
we're not necessarily a place where men are supposed

01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:57.739
to cry, even today. That's not quite the thing

01:03:57.739 --> 01:04:00.619
in certain circles. So then you have this man

01:04:00.619 --> 01:04:05.219
who would weep and would meet people in his bed.

01:04:05.300 --> 01:04:11.360
And yes, maybe he was eccentric to Western eyes,

01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:17.139
but did that make him insane? And that's been

01:04:17.139 --> 01:04:19.840
one of the things that I've harped on again and

01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:24.300
again in my career is that I think that we...

01:04:26.030 --> 01:04:30.590
the U .S. at our peril have said that the Iranians

01:04:30.590 --> 01:04:34.349
are irrational or erratic when we just simply

01:04:34.349 --> 01:04:37.429
don't understand their culture. Yeah, I would

01:04:37.429 --> 01:04:40.849
double down on that with the other aspect of

01:04:40.849 --> 01:04:45.230
Mosaddegh being rather stubborn, you know, digging

01:04:45.230 --> 01:04:48.030
his feet in in the negotiations with the British.

01:04:48.210 --> 01:04:51.690
And this could come from a Shia tradition of

01:04:51.690 --> 01:04:56.380
willingness to suffer and sacrifice. We will

01:04:56.380 --> 01:04:59.760
see some of that in our next episode. Yeah. It's

01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:03.219
stemming from martyrdom, martyrdom of Hussein.

01:05:03.340 --> 01:05:06.079
And this would be an image you'd see all over

01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:10.760
Iran. You'd see the paintings of this key event

01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:14.900
in Islamic tradition. Can you describe that more?

01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:20.460
Yeah. Hussein was martyred. It was about who

01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:23.900
would secede to the caliphate. After Muhammad's

01:05:23.900 --> 01:05:26.360
death. After Muhammad's death. And Hussein was

01:05:26.360 --> 01:05:30.199
a relative. Right. And this is where the Shia

01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:35.280
emerged differently from the Sunnis as the feeling

01:05:35.469 --> 01:05:41.369
they're the true inheritors of Islam as followers

01:05:41.369 --> 01:05:46.889
of Hussein who was martyred in... Karbala. Yeah.

01:05:47.030 --> 01:05:51.690
And this, it would be an amazing thing in Iran

01:05:51.690 --> 01:05:54.610
in this very modern city. You could have been

01:05:54.610 --> 01:05:57.349
in L .A. except for the women wearing chadoras

01:05:57.349 --> 01:06:02.090
and other women wearing miniskirts. The chadoras

01:06:02.090 --> 01:06:06.130
being the big black enveloping cloth that covers

01:06:06.130 --> 01:06:11.039
their entire bodies. Yeah. Exactly. So modern

01:06:11.039 --> 01:06:15.340
city, but suddenly hordes of men would come out

01:06:15.340 --> 01:06:20.099
on the day of Ushura commemorating this martyrdom.

01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:23.300
And they would be flagellating themselves with

01:06:23.300 --> 01:06:29.389
chains and reciting mournful dirges. Perfect

01:06:29.389 --> 01:06:34.409
unison. It's a passion play, I guess you could

01:06:34.409 --> 01:06:38.110
say, not unlike what you would see around Lent

01:06:38.110 --> 01:06:44.130
leading up to Easter in some traditions, some

01:06:44.130 --> 01:06:47.769
Christian traditions. Or in Spain, too. And I

01:06:47.769 --> 01:06:52.389
think a symbol of that kind of embracing of suffering

01:06:52.389 --> 01:06:57.610
and sacrifice that pervaded Shia Islam. And this

01:06:57.610 --> 01:06:59.929
is a martyrdom that happened in the 7th century?

01:07:00.210 --> 01:07:06.090
That's right. Was he sickly? Mosaddegh? Genuinely.

01:07:07.269 --> 01:07:12.590
People claim he was a hypochondriac. I think,

01:07:12.610 --> 01:07:14.989
no, there's clear evidence he was ill. He had

01:07:14.989 --> 01:07:18.130
stomach ulcers. He had other ailments. Tuberculosis?

01:07:18.489 --> 01:07:22.269
Yeah, tuberculosis as a child. Right, we mentioned

01:07:22.269 --> 01:07:25.539
that. As an adult, though, was he... I don't

01:07:25.539 --> 01:07:28.139
know, hospitalized frequently. You could say

01:07:28.139 --> 01:07:30.300
he made a show of it. I mean, there's even an

01:07:30.300 --> 01:07:33.559
incidence where they brought his whole bed to

01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:36.360
the stage where he was going to make a speech,

01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:39.559
and he would make a very eloquent speech. And,

01:07:39.739 --> 01:07:42.059
you know, he wouldn't hide his infirmity like

01:07:42.059 --> 01:07:43.360
you might in the West. He'd make a speech from

01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:46.099
the bed. I think they propped him up with his

01:07:46.099 --> 01:07:48.500
bed right there. And when he came to the U .S.

01:07:48.500 --> 01:07:51.539
and spoke at the U .N., he gave part of the speech,

01:07:51.539 --> 01:07:54.420
if I'm remembering correctly, and then his...

01:07:55.289 --> 01:07:59.449
His delegate gave the rest of it, and when he

01:07:59.449 --> 01:08:03.650
showed up at the airport, his doctor, who I believe

01:08:03.650 --> 01:08:08.969
was a relative of his son, cleared him, gave

01:08:08.969 --> 01:08:11.150
him a medical clearance to go ahead and proceed

01:08:11.150 --> 01:08:15.829
with the speech and the rest of the trip. So

01:08:15.829 --> 01:08:17.989
he stood up, gave the first part of the speech,

01:08:17.989 --> 01:08:21.069
and then his delegate gave the rest of the speech,

01:08:21.069 --> 01:08:24.659
and the rest of the speech went on for... was

01:08:24.659 --> 01:08:28.739
quite elegant. So he wrote it out and then went

01:08:28.739 --> 01:08:31.399
on with the rest of the trip. So yeah, he was

01:08:31.399 --> 01:08:35.359
sick. He did have illnesses, serious illnesses.

01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:38.420
He is 70 years old, too. He was elderly, but

01:08:38.420 --> 01:08:41.359
I mean, I know some 70 -year -olds who are in

01:08:41.359 --> 01:08:44.119
better shape than I am right now. Yes. But this

01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:49.810
is now in 2026. So yes, he did have... Certain

01:08:49.810 --> 01:08:52.310
illnesses. And he was a little bit eccentric,

01:08:52.590 --> 01:08:55.909
but there were also a clash of cultures where

01:08:55.909 --> 01:08:59.470
he wasn't behaving. in a way that people in the

01:08:59.470 --> 01:09:02.649
West expected him to act. And it's not because

01:09:02.649 --> 01:09:04.949
he didn't know how people in the West expected

01:09:04.949 --> 01:09:07.630
him to act, because he was educated in Europe.

01:09:07.689 --> 01:09:11.989
So he absolutely knew how people in Europe would

01:09:11.989 --> 01:09:14.710
expect him to act. He was choosing to act in

01:09:14.710 --> 01:09:18.810
a way that was in line with how Iranians act.

01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:23.180
a legitimate choice for him to make. And it was

01:09:23.180 --> 01:09:26.880
acceptable in his culture, absolutely acceptable

01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:29.140
in his culture. But both British and American

01:09:29.140 --> 01:09:32.039
society in the 50s were very conformist. Correct.

01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:34.560
So he did not conform to their standard. Again,

01:09:34.619 --> 01:09:36.539
it's like you're saying, it's a cultural misunderstanding.

01:09:36.699 --> 01:09:40.100
Right. But he was not conforming to the British

01:09:40.100 --> 01:09:43.140
and American standard of public behavior by a

01:09:43.140 --> 01:09:46.279
public official. Correct. Certainly a male public

01:09:46.279 --> 01:09:49.340
official. Correct. And that's where he got this.

01:09:49.770 --> 01:09:51.609
Right. What's right where it's stigma or something

01:09:51.609 --> 01:09:54.449
attached to him of I mean hypochondria and weakness

01:09:54.449 --> 01:09:58.390
and whatever Yeah, and it and it ended up playing

01:09:58.390 --> 01:10:01.449
into their hands a little bit because they were

01:10:01.449 --> 01:10:05.270
able to use this as a an opportunity for messaging

01:10:05.270 --> 01:10:09.949
that he was insane and then they could use use

01:10:09.949 --> 01:10:13.170
that and just carry it on to try to To weaken

01:10:13.170 --> 01:10:15.569
him internally and to kind of promote the idea

01:10:15.569 --> 01:10:19.189
of his rule was destabilizing Yes, absolutely.

01:10:19.270 --> 01:10:25.670
That we will get into. But today, in certain

01:10:25.670 --> 01:10:30.250
circles, he's revered. I would say in certain

01:10:30.250 --> 01:10:35.279
circles, there's some ambivalence about him because

01:10:35.279 --> 01:10:40.100
they like the nationalist ideals, but he wasn't.

01:10:41.930 --> 01:10:44.369
I mean, he was a devout Muslim, but he didn't

01:10:44.369 --> 01:10:48.390
uphold what would now be the Islamic Republic's

01:10:48.390 --> 01:10:53.250
ideals. For a long time, access to his grave

01:10:53.250 --> 01:10:56.170
was restricted. It might still be, I'm not sure.

01:10:58.630 --> 01:11:02.140
Certainly under the Shah. access was forbidden

01:11:02.140 --> 01:11:08.899
to his grave. So younger people in Iran probably

01:11:08.899 --> 01:11:13.239
are only vaguely aware of him, just like younger

01:11:13.239 --> 01:11:16.720
people here are only vaguely aware of certain

01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:21.159
parts of our history. I think recently someone

01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:24.699
in the Islamic Republic, some cleric, mentioned

01:11:24.699 --> 01:11:27.680
Mosaddegh in defiance of the United States, saying

01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:30.920
they weren't going to be taken advantage of like

01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:35.380
Mosaddegh. So I think he's very well known, even

01:11:35.380 --> 01:11:38.439
today, definitely, in Iran. But this cleric felt

01:11:38.439 --> 01:11:40.840
that Mosaddegh was taken advantage of by the

01:11:40.840 --> 01:11:43.199
United States. And that's going to be something

01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:45.079
we get into in the next episode as well, is where

01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:48.939
that idea would come from. I understand that

01:11:48.939 --> 01:11:52.500
the anniversary, I may be mistaken about this,

01:11:52.579 --> 01:11:56.260
but I did when I was researching this, and I

01:11:56.260 --> 01:11:59.680
did capture this image, and I think it's on the

01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:04.909
website, that the day that he nationalized the

01:12:04.909 --> 01:12:09.090
AIOC, is this still commemorated over there?

01:12:09.409 --> 01:12:13.050
Yes. Yes, it is. Is it a holiday? Or is it just

01:12:13.050 --> 01:12:15.869
a day that you commemorate, kind of like Flag

01:12:15.869 --> 01:12:18.569
Day or something like that here? You know what?

01:12:18.590 --> 01:12:21.869
I don't know how much, but we can look that up.

01:12:22.010 --> 01:12:27.310
Okay. Because it's like what I saw when doing

01:12:27.310 --> 01:12:30.329
the research and looking for images of him, what

01:12:30.329 --> 01:12:35.310
I found was a banner with his picture on it hanging

01:12:35.340 --> 01:12:39.039
above an oil refinery, kind of celebrating the

01:12:39.039 --> 01:12:42.840
fact that this had occurred in the first place

01:12:42.840 --> 01:12:46.659
and it represented a kind of... means to kind

01:12:46.659 --> 01:12:50.800
of talk about Iran reasserting its its position

01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:54.340
as a great power after having almost like what

01:12:54.340 --> 01:12:57.159
we saw with China with a hundred years of humiliation

01:12:58.109 --> 01:13:00.090
With all these humiliating treaties that the

01:13:00.090 --> 01:13:02.970
Chinese had to suffer from, the Iranians are

01:13:02.970 --> 01:13:06.069
also kind of, they don't necessarily have a slogan

01:13:06.069 --> 01:13:09.250
for it as far as I know, but all these bad times

01:13:09.250 --> 01:13:11.909
that occurred where the Russians and the British

01:13:11.909 --> 01:13:14.390
are kind of feeding off their country in the

01:13:14.390 --> 01:13:17.710
19th century there. Oh, this is interesting.

01:13:18.210 --> 01:13:22.149
It is called Oil Nationalization Day, and it

01:13:22.149 --> 01:13:26.050
is a national holiday. However, it falls just

01:13:26.050 --> 01:13:30.550
before Nowruz, which is a very large holiday,

01:13:30.630 --> 01:13:34.989
which Jen can probably get into and describe

01:13:34.989 --> 01:13:39.010
much more eloquently than I can. So it isn't

01:13:39.010 --> 01:13:42.550
a huge holiday, and it's not one where you see

01:13:42.550 --> 01:13:46.390
a lot of... you know, parades or public displays.

01:13:46.789 --> 01:13:49.789
But yes, it is a national day off. Kind of like

01:13:49.789 --> 01:13:51.909
Columbus Day. Oh, it's like a national day. They

01:13:51.909 --> 01:13:54.689
get off that day. So something better than Flag

01:13:54.689 --> 01:13:57.010
Day. It's kind of like Columbus Day. Yeah. Not

01:13:57.010 --> 01:13:58.609
that big a holiday, but you do get the day off.

01:13:58.649 --> 01:14:01.289
I think you get the day off, but then everybody's

01:14:01.289 --> 01:14:04.310
probably getting ready to celebrate Nowruz. And

01:14:04.310 --> 01:14:07.390
what is Nowruz? New Year's. And it's the biggest,

01:14:07.449 --> 01:14:10.050
happiest holiday in Iran. But importantly, it

01:14:10.050 --> 01:14:14.350
stems from Zoroastrian tradition. It's a Persian

01:14:14.350 --> 01:14:19.930
tradition. The main religion that preceded Islam.

01:14:20.210 --> 01:14:23.970
It still exists there. Yeah. Nowruz is huge.

01:14:24.350 --> 01:14:29.930
No, but I mean Zoroastrians. Yes, with an asterisk.

01:14:29.989 --> 01:14:33.090
But Nowruz is more the Persian New Year, so it's

01:14:33.090 --> 01:14:35.689
not the Zoroastrian. It's more the Persian New

01:14:35.689 --> 01:14:39.569
Year. Sure. But the traditions at Nowruz, for

01:14:39.569 --> 01:14:42.149
example, jumping over fires and that kind of

01:14:42.149 --> 01:14:46.770
thing, stem from Zoroastrian traditions. The

01:14:46.770 --> 01:14:50.430
image of Mozadegh with the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia

01:14:50.430 --> 01:14:54.470
on that trip, I just want to say it meant something.

01:14:55.729 --> 01:14:59.449
Mozadegh earnestly admired the U .S. and saw

01:14:59.449 --> 01:15:03.470
us as allies. We had fought off the British.

01:15:03.979 --> 01:15:06.840
And that's what he was trying to do. We'll put

01:15:06.840 --> 01:15:09.600
the photo in the image gallery on the website.

01:15:09.779 --> 01:15:12.159
But in the photo, he's touching the Liberty Bell.

01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:13.699
He's reaching out and touching it, actually.

01:15:13.779 --> 01:15:17.640
Like a revered talisman. This is interesting.

01:15:17.779 --> 01:15:22.039
I was just reading about the Oil Nationalization

01:15:22.039 --> 01:15:26.119
Day in Iran. Some conservative leaders in Iran

01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:30.109
today emphasize... Ayatollah Khashoggi's contribution

01:15:30.109 --> 01:15:33.930
to the nationalization. That's one of the clerics

01:15:33.930 --> 01:15:40.430
that we didn't really discuss. he worked with

01:15:40.430 --> 01:15:42.430
Mesodek. I was about to say he allied with him.

01:15:42.710 --> 01:15:45.630
At first he was. They were both in the modulus.

01:15:46.090 --> 01:15:48.750
They were both in the modulus. He worked with

01:15:48.750 --> 01:15:50.710
Mesodek, and then later on they kind of parted

01:15:50.710 --> 01:15:55.229
ways. But they emphasize his contribution to

01:15:55.229 --> 01:16:00.069
the nationalization of AOC, sometimes at the

01:16:00.069 --> 01:16:03.750
expense of Mesodek, which is interesting because

01:16:03.750 --> 01:16:06.890
he is one of the clerics, and Mesodek wasn't.

01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:09.520
That's really interesting. Yeah, it's kind of

01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:13.220
funny. Yes. So I guess it's fair to say then

01:16:13.220 --> 01:16:15.760
they were never officially a colony, but this

01:16:15.760 --> 01:16:18.300
nationalization symbolizes for them the same

01:16:18.300 --> 01:16:20.600
thing that true decolonization would have, or

01:16:20.600 --> 01:16:22.539
decolonization would have meant for a true former

01:16:22.539 --> 01:16:25.220
colony, if you see what I'm saying. It seems

01:16:25.220 --> 01:16:26.739
to have that kind of import to them if they have

01:16:26.739 --> 01:16:28.859
a national day off for it in recognition of it.

01:16:29.069 --> 01:16:32.890
Yes, but they also have a holiday that is, and

01:16:32.890 --> 01:16:35.750
I'm going to get the name slightly wrong. I want

01:16:35.750 --> 01:16:39.850
to say it's the National Day Against World Arrogance.

01:16:39.850 --> 01:16:43.850
Let me look it up. National Day Against World

01:16:43.850 --> 01:16:48.350
Arrogance. Estebar y Jahani, is that how you

01:16:48.350 --> 01:16:52.289
would say it? I don't know. Estebar y Jahani.

01:16:52.789 --> 01:16:55.069
Refers to powerful states accused of dominating

01:16:55.069 --> 01:16:58.670
or exploiting weaker nations. which we've seen

01:16:58.670 --> 01:17:01.710
over and over again with Iran, with the United

01:17:01.710 --> 01:17:05.770
States generally portrayed as the principal example.

01:17:06.510 --> 01:17:09.489
And how it's observed is much more political

01:17:09.489 --> 01:17:13.350
than oil nationalization day, government sponsored

01:17:13.350 --> 01:17:16.970
rallies. So that one, I think, is almost getting

01:17:16.970 --> 01:17:19.590
more to what you're talking about. That one's

01:17:19.590 --> 01:17:23.180
much more overt. Well, it used to be that my

01:17:23.180 --> 01:17:25.260
favorite foreign holiday name I ever ran across

01:17:25.260 --> 01:17:27.380
was North Korea has a holiday called Machinery

01:17:27.380 --> 01:17:31.409
Day, in which one celebrates machinery. And so

01:17:31.409 --> 01:17:32.890
I thought that was kind of cool. One of my co

01:17:32.890 --> 01:17:34.510
-workers and I would say, happy Machinery Day

01:17:34.510 --> 01:17:37.789
to each other. World Arrogance Day might beat

01:17:37.789 --> 01:17:42.010
it out as my favorite one. We're close to it

01:17:42.010 --> 01:17:45.609
anyway. Back when I was on the Iran team, we

01:17:45.609 --> 01:17:48.890
would all walk around. saying happy World Arrogance

01:17:48.890 --> 01:17:51.430
Day to everybody else on the team. We should

01:17:51.430 --> 01:17:53.869
all have a World Arrogance Day. How about a tree?

01:17:54.970 --> 01:17:57.250
It's intelligence, community, humor. Yes. But

01:17:57.250 --> 01:17:59.010
I would say that Sharon telling us about World

01:17:59.010 --> 01:18:02.130
Arrogance Day is an excellent segue into the

01:18:02.130 --> 01:18:03.909
entire rest of this series, which is going to

01:18:03.909 --> 01:18:07.880
talk about where that sentiment comes from. As

01:18:07.880 --> 01:18:12.159
we're seeing right now, the U .S. is kind of

01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:17.039
favorable towards Mosaday. They would like to

01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:20.380
see something happen from the British side that

01:18:20.380 --> 01:18:23.899
would allow them to resolve the situation. U

01:18:23.899 --> 01:18:27.119
.S. is still holding true to its longstanding

01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:31.119
policy not to support or maintain the maintenance

01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:34.479
of overseas European empires, which has been

01:18:34.479 --> 01:18:38.159
kind of U .S. policy since the Revolutionary

01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:44.210
War. However, there is a Cold War. And this Cold

01:18:44.210 --> 01:18:47.229
War does provide potential exemptions to these

01:18:47.229 --> 01:18:49.949
longstanding rules governing the attitudes of

01:18:49.949 --> 01:18:52.189
Americans towards the status of European empires.

01:18:52.329 --> 01:18:54.890
And this is something we will see in our next

01:18:54.890 --> 01:18:59.399
episode play out. That's it for this episode

01:18:59.399 --> 01:19:02.380
of the United States of Amnesia. Thank you for

01:19:02.380 --> 01:19:04.760
listening. Thanks again to Jennifer and Sharon

01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:07.779
for joining us. And be sure to check out Sharon's

01:19:07.779 --> 01:19:11.100
Substack, Redacted No More. There's a link to

01:19:11.100 --> 01:19:13.670
it on our website. We hope you learned something

01:19:13.670 --> 01:19:15.890
and we hope you discovered new ways of looking

01:19:15.890 --> 01:19:18.510
at things you had already heard or thought about

01:19:18.510 --> 01:19:21.930
or perhaps hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed

01:19:21.930 --> 01:19:24.270
it, that's great. If we made you mad, that's

01:19:24.270 --> 01:19:29.149
okay too. Either way, email us at usa .amnesia

01:19:29.149 --> 01:19:31.789
at gmail .com and let us know what you think.

01:19:32.210 --> 01:19:34.430
Also, let us know about anything you think we

01:19:34.430 --> 01:19:36.529
missed or got wrong. We'd like to know about

01:19:36.529 --> 01:19:39.859
that too. And of course, Please like and subscribe

01:19:39.859 --> 01:19:41.960
and let your friends and neighbors know about

01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:48.460
us. We also have a website. It's www .usofamnesia

01:19:48.460 --> 01:19:52.880
.com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself, Blake Henke.

01:19:53.000 --> 01:19:53.939
Till next time.