210: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - Only Nixon Can Go to China

WEBVTT

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In the afternoon, Kennedy said he wanted to talk

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first about Southeast Asia. You will find that

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the information in this area will be an endless

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entanglement, responded de Gaulle. Once a nation

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has been aroused, no foreign power, however strong,

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can impose its will upon it. You will sink into

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a bottomless military and political quagmire,

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however much you spend in men and money. I hope

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you will not say that in public, Kennedy said.

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Of course, the Frenchman replied. I never speak

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to the press. Never. De Gaulle added another

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thought about that part of the world. Perhaps

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the Russians are backing the Pathet Lao insurgents

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because they, too, are nervous about Chinese

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expansion. The idea was too much for Kennedy.

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The Americans still saw a monolith that they

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called the Sino -Soviet bloc. Kennedy's response

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was clever, but wrong. He said that the Soviet

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Union and China were like Caesar and Pompey,

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that they would become enemies again only after

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vanquishing a common foe. Now, what does this

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mean? Well, we are now in the wonderful world

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of monoliths. And monoliths are great because

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this is... an artificial construct that we have

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that we periodically construct in order for us

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to understand complicated situations and at the

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same time get them wrong because anytime somebody

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is going to talk to you about monolithic communism

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or monolithic islam or monolithic this or that

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they probably don't know what they're talking

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about because there's always seems when we're

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dealing with nation states and this is going

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to have like a huge impact on our post -World

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War II foreign policy thinking. And this is something

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that we're going to explore in this episode.

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Welcome to the United States of Amnesia. We are

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the podcast that reminds us of what we have forgotten.

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It is often said that history repeats itself.

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Mark Twain allegedly said that history doesn't

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repeat itself. but it rhymes. But over time,

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many topics have become clouded by biases and

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oversimplifications, or have become mythologized

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and now are misunderstood. Misunderstanding means

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learning the wrong lessons from history, perhaps,

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or even learning nothing at all. And that can

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leave us poorly prepared for history's next rhyme.

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After World War II and the Korean War in 1950,

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American relations with the People's Republic

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of China fell into an icy abyss from which they

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did not emerge until President Richard Nixon

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made his momentous decision to visit Beijing

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in 1972. We in the United States were fearful

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of monolithic communism in the form of Russia

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and now China. and its expansion. And that led

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to two decades, and then some, of silence. Today

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we're going to look at the consequences of our

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failure to understand China. It is important

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before going on that we review some of the notions

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that were held, not just by policymakers, but

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by the general... population. The Chinese nationalist

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government of Chiang might have replaced a corrupt

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Manchu empire, but it reproved every bit as adept,

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if not better, in pocketing money and goods,

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particularly those from overseas. Small wonder

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as the Chinese economy was devastated at the

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end of World War II with hyperinflation and the

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loss of significant portions of the means of

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production, both industrial and agricultural.

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Finally, it is important, Chiang was never able

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to consolidate control over China at any time

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during the 22 years that he was in power. 1927

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to 49, so it was highly unlikely that he could

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initiate democratic reforms, much less Christian

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-based democratic reforms at that. Neither Chiang

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nor the people of China were in any way poised

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to become a Christian democracy. was supported

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by passages that people plucked out of the Bible

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as necessary to the second coming of Jesus in

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some quarters. These soothsayers would transfer

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their expectations for pending end times to Israel,

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which became established shortly before Chiang

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had to flee to Taiwan, with many of the best

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of China's imperial treasures. as well as its

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gold reserves and any cash and military equipment

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that it could make off with. Israel was established

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in 1948. Yes. And the nationalist government

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fled to Taiwan in 1949. Yes. So they were one

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year apart. Yes. So, I mean, you see a lot of

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the same talk about the establishment of this

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Christian country in China as the fulfillment

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of biblical prophecy. This would hasten the second

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coming of Christ. That would hasten. It was basically

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about... Jesus and the word of God being preached

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in all countries throughout the world here. And

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so by having this happen in China, this is a

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precondition. And the second coming of Jesus,

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this is the rapture. Yeah, the rapture. That

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we'll get into in another episode. Yes, we will

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get into some of this in another episode. But

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it's about the rapture. It's about the second

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coming. So there is, in the sort of geopolitical

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analysis, the reasons why we're supporting Chiang

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Kai -shek. is not necessarily because he's viable,

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because the story sounds good. You know, they're

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printing the legend, so to speak. From this vantage

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point, people would insist that Taiwan was China,

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and this would be an article of faith among the

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American right for decades after. And we should

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probably clarify here, just to make sure everybody's

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on the same page with us, that officially, You

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have two governments in one country. Both governments

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maintain this. They maintain there's only one

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China. The People's Republic of China governs

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all of it except for Taiwan. And the Republic

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of China, which is the nationalist government,

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which was the one that Chiang Kai -shek led,

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governs only Taiwan. But just for people who

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might be confused by this, neither one claims

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that there are two separate countries. It's two

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separate governments, both of which claim to

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be the legitimate government of the entire country.

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That's still going on today. And that still is

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the case today. The focus of this episode is

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going to be how the unreasonable expectations,

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the incomplete understanding of the actual state

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of affairs in China had a negative impact on

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all aspects of American society. And this was

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led by ignorant demagogues, whose ideological

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descendants still exercise a malevolent impact

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upon society today. And I think we know who we're

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talking about. For the time being, communism

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became the third rail in American politics. The

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Republicans could use it to combat the New Deal

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and Democrats had to be seen as being more fanatical

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anti -communists. They otherwise could be otherwise

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they'd be portrayed as being soft on communism.

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So this dates back to the 1930s. Yes. I mean,

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but the New Deal is still controversial. You

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know, it is still controversial. And people,

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you know, like we get this bullshit about communism.

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You know, like communism, people and it's usually

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from people who do not know what communism is.

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Yeah. A lot of people will claim that anything,

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even let's say, you know, more left leaning people

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come up with is somehow communist in nature.

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They'll default to that or at least socialists,

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they'll say. Yes. And actually, it isn't. The

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United States doesn't really have European -style

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socialism, let alone communism, except for tiny

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pockets of political outsiders. There is a Communist

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Party, I suppose, in the United States. Mainly

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made up of FBI agents. Yeah, and there's a Socialist

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Party. But people tend to default to that. Even

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though there really is nothing even remotely

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similar in the United States to even really European

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-style socialism. Nobody is advocating, as they

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do in Europe, public ownership of the means of

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production. Exactly. And that is what makes something

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communist. That is what makes something socialist.

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Most of the population, even with the experience

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of World War II, did not really have a good idea

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of the real dynamics of international affairs.

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They did go to the movies and they learned from

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the movies that events like World War II were

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part of a global international conspiracy. conspiracy,

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beginning with attacks in China, in Manchuria,

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followed by the fall of Ethiopia, Austria, Spain,

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Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, the

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Low Countries, and France, to the international

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Axis conspiracy. While this was great for morale

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purposes, it had nothing to do with reality.

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And the riff that people are going to take on

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this is going to have nothing to do with reality.

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What I just quoted is from Casablanca. There's

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like a scene in Casablanca where they list all

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this stuff about Rick Blaine running guns to

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Ethiopia and so forth. And it's all about like

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this is all intertwined and interconnected. The

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Axis countries, though, were not actually functioning

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that way. And this is kind of something that

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we might want to consider about how Russia and

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China are going to cooperate with each other.

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The Axis countries were generally working at

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cross purposes with each other, and they did

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not consult on war aims at the same degree as,

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say, Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin did. There

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is a sense that only a nuclear -armed communist

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alliance could have come into being with... Another

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international conspiracy like the ones that people

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are seeing at their local movie theater during

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World War II. So let's clarify here then. So

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people go to the movies after World War II. Yeah.

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They see movies telling them that there was a

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big Axis conspiracy against the world. Say like

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where low -level agents would know when Pearl

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Harbor was going to happen. Right. Then we have

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the Cold War has begun. Yes. And so they are

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transposing that false idea. That false dynamic,

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really. That false dynamic of how the Axis powers

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worked in World War II, which had been a major

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experience in all their lives fighting World

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War II. They're transposing that into the Cold

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War environment. And they are assuming that the

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movie's depiction of the way the Axis worked

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is the way this communist bloc actually works

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in real life. Yes. That is exactly it. And you're

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going to explain to us how that is not true at

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all. That is not true at all. We're going to

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get into a lot of that about how that is not

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true at all. But demagogues, anti -communist

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demagogues, would actually play on this. And

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I'm not going to say that they were lying because

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they probably didn't know one thing from the

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other about communism, but they kind of took

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that and ran with it. And this is going to affect

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U .S. society in the 50s and in the 60s as well.

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So communism was viewed as a conspiracy that

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was nothing less than a disease aiming to destroy

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the American government and capitalism through

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infiltration, espionage, and revolution. Communism

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was viewed almost in religious terms in which

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all inherents were incapable of having differing

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viewpoints or any other goal than the elimination

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of American capitalists. system, and its military

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might. And so there began a pursuit for Moscow's

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fifth columnist. Hunting Communists was the road

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to success if one was a Republican in the late

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1940s. Richard Nixon, who we will encounter again

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and again in this period, came to prominence

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in his prosecution of Alger Hiss, a member of

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the New Deal establishment who was at least communist

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-curious, but not exercising nearly the sway

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over post -Cold War planning that right -wingers

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imagined. What do you mean by fifth columnists?

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Fifth columnists, this is a word that actually

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came out of the Spanish Civil War. And General

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Franco said that he had four columns surrounding

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the city of, I think, Madrid, and one column

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inside. So these are people that infiltrate and

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subvert and undermine the hegemony of a society.

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to support the adversary. And Franco, that's

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Francisco Franco, he was the fascist leader of

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the nationalist rebellion against the Spanish

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Republic, and eventually he became the caudillo,

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the fascist ruler of Spain for decades after

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the end of the Spanish Civil War back in the

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30s. While Nixon managed to eventually become...

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Eisenhower's poorly appreciated vice president.

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There's also Joe McCarthy and his stooge and

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Trump mentor, Roy Cohn. And they made real progress

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in ruining innocent people's lives throughout

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the government. In addition to communists, they

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led the charge to ban homosexuals from government

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service, in collusion with J. Edgar Hoover. Cohn

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described himself as a heterosexual who liked

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to sleep with men. McCarthy was a frequent visitor

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to the White Horse Inn, a Milwaukee gay bar,

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and there are persistent rumors that Hoover was

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having an affair with his deputy, Kai Tolson,

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and he liked to wear women's clothing. Were they

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alive today, these pillars of the anti -communist

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movement would be crashing Grindr along with

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their MAGA heirs. The Lavender Scare, as it became

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known, was masterminded by three gay men who

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pressured Eisenhower to ban homosexual employment

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in the federal civil service. But the Lavender

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Scare was just a subset of the blacklist in which

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people were accused of being communist, frequently

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on the most flimsy of pretext. There were a series

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of patriotic groups who, in the post -1949 environment,

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were able to libel people of even just liberal

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views as being tools of Moscow. One group that

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was targeted were, as we mentioned before, the

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China hands. These were the guys who were involved

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with the China white paper. They had provided

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a lot of the insights into this. And as we discussed

00:14:42.740 --> 00:14:46.580
in our last episode, the... China white paper

00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:49.500
was kind of a lightning rod for proponents and

00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:53.500
patrons of Chiang Kai -shek's government. And

00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:55.440
it was something that Madam Chiang Kai -shek

00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:00.039
rallied forces to undermine an attack. So they

00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.460
did go after Dean Acheson, who was the person

00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:05.980
who released the China War white paper. And Acheson

00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:07.840
was who at the time? Secretary of State. Okay.

00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:15.259
But the people who actually were taken out. in

00:15:15.259 --> 00:15:18.539
reaction to this were the China hands. These

00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:22.580
were our experts, not just really on China, but

00:15:22.580 --> 00:15:26.759
on Asia, other than, say, Japan. So let's clarify.

00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.759
So the China hands were the people, and we discussed

00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:31.899
the people going back and forth in an earlier

00:15:31.899 --> 00:15:34.860
episode between the Chinese communists and...

00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:39.019
General Joseph Stilwell. And they were providing

00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:41.179
Stilwell with favorable, their favorable impressions

00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:43.580
of the communists. Perhaps a little too favorable,

00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:45.879
but yes. Yeah, as agrarian reformers who were

00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:47.759
democratically inclined and all of that that

00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.279
they told him, which Stilwell thought, he thought

00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.539
the same thing. Yeah. That's the China hands

00:15:52.539 --> 00:15:54.000
you're talking about. That is who I'm talking

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.460
about. And this is, and the, the, and Chung Kai

00:15:57.460 --> 00:16:00.080
-shek, Madam Chung, et cetera, of course, did

00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.120
not want this white paper they put together because

00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.379
it, It basically blamed Chang for the failure

00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:12.399
of his own government by his inability to be

00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.860
an effective leader. And this is so counter to

00:16:15.860 --> 00:16:19.600
what fanboys like Claire Chenault or Henry Luce,

00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:27.059
the publisher of Time Live, or Congressman Judd

00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:30.200
from Minnesota. All of these people were like

00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.039
strong proponents of Chiang Kai -shek. And of

00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.179
the Republic of China. And the Republic of China.

00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:36.399
The nationalist government. The nationalist,

00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:39.399
yes. The white paper questioned that. The white

00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.720
paper questioned their effectiveness. And so

00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:43.299
naturally that made the writers of the white

00:16:43.299 --> 00:16:45.279
paper communists. Of course. Because they were

00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:47.240
in favor of China being taken over by communists.

00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.480
They were fifth columnists. They were fifth columnists.

00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:53.379
They are undermining our ability to really understand

00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:57.649
it with their poisonous. gossip about Chiang

00:16:57.649 --> 00:17:00.009
Kai -shek and corruption and all these other

00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:03.490
things. This is what they're opposed to, what

00:17:03.490 --> 00:17:06.410
they're talking about when they're trying to

00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:08.990
root out communist subversion. It's people like

00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:11.269
that. So if Stilwell had not died in October

00:17:11.269 --> 00:17:13.990
of 1946, he would have been labeled a communist

00:17:13.990 --> 00:17:17.130
by these people. In all likelihood, yes. I was

00:17:17.130 --> 00:17:19.710
just going to add that the lavender scare you

00:17:19.710 --> 00:17:23.869
mentioned earlier. began in the late 1940s and

00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:26.190
continued through the 60s. And it was a period

00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:29.150
in which thousands of gay employees were fired

00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:31.210
or forced to resign from the federal workforce

00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:33.750
because of their sexuality. Well, not all of

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:35.670
them were gay. It's like, you know, there's no,

00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:37.890
it's like you can't, you know, unlike drug testing,

00:17:38.009 --> 00:17:40.609
you can't like, you can't like, you know. There's

00:17:40.609 --> 00:17:43.410
no test. There's no test for it. You know, it's

00:17:43.410 --> 00:17:46.339
like you can't like, you know. piss in a bottle

00:17:46.339 --> 00:17:48.720
and basically if it comes out purple, then basically

00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.059
you're gay. No, it's like if you if you were

00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:55.039
like, I don't know if you patronize the ballet

00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:58.779
too much or, you know, you you you had a roommate

00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:02.660
and, you know, you had had a roommate for like

00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:06.009
10 years. You know, they would question whether

00:18:06.009 --> 00:18:08.210
or not, you know, well, what's really going on

00:18:08.210 --> 00:18:10.089
there? If you threw a party and not enough women

00:18:10.089 --> 00:18:12.529
came. Yeah. You're probably gay then, right?

00:18:12.589 --> 00:18:15.349
Yeah. I mean, there's some things that are obvious.

00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:20.789
You know, if you get busted at the public bathroom

00:18:20.789 --> 00:18:24.369
across the street from the White House, which

00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:26.430
was a cruising area, yeah, you probably were,

00:18:26.589 --> 00:18:30.269
you know. And it didn't matter whether you had

00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:34.190
a security clearance or not. This was inconsistent

00:18:34.190 --> 00:18:42.029
with behavior for federal employment. In terms

00:18:42.029 --> 00:18:45.190
of what happened, to get back to the China hands,

00:18:45.269 --> 00:18:47.970
none of which were accused of being gay. They

00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:50.289
were just accused of being subversives, just

00:18:50.289 --> 00:18:53.329
to make that clear. But because they were correct

00:18:53.329 --> 00:18:55.900
in assessing Chiang Kai -shek, and they actually

00:18:55.900 --> 00:19:01.720
blame Chiang Kai -shek for being incapable. And

00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.339
again, this is, you know, you think about the

00:19:03.339 --> 00:19:05.099
stuff Claire Chenault's talking about, about

00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:07.480
him being like one of the one or two important

00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.140
people in human history here or in our time.

00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:14.529
This is quite the comedown for a lot of people.

00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:16.650
This is not what they have been led to believe

00:19:16.650 --> 00:19:19.170
all this time, and it is very difficult for them

00:19:19.170 --> 00:19:21.650
to adjust. We discussed in a previous episode

00:19:21.650 --> 00:19:24.569
Claire Chenault. He was the U .S. Army Air Force's

00:19:24.569 --> 00:19:28.190
commander in China during World War II and was

00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:32.019
a great supporter of Chenault. Chiang Kai -shek

00:19:32.019 --> 00:19:34.420
and Madame Chung had very warm relations with

00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.039
them and was one of their champions in the United

00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.440
States. And continued to be so for the rest of

00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:40.299
his life. After he left the military. Yes. After

00:19:40.299 --> 00:19:43.339
World War II. Yeah. So what happened to the China

00:19:43.339 --> 00:19:46.269
hands? So in the time -honored manner. of the

00:19:46.269 --> 00:19:48.250
government, they were fired for their positions

00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:50.190
with the State Department because they were right,

00:19:50.369 --> 00:19:53.930
something we are seeing today in certain other

00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:57.309
contexts. One might be questioned for being wrong

00:19:57.309 --> 00:20:00.630
in making an assessment, but being right at the

00:20:00.630 --> 00:20:03.049
wrong time and forecasting the wrong outcome

00:20:03.049 --> 00:20:06.029
does tend to get one fired, as we recently saw

00:20:06.029 --> 00:20:08.549
with senior analysts on Venezuela. Well, they

00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:12.950
were fired for being right. That's true. The

00:20:12.950 --> 00:20:15.450
people who fired them were not thinking that

00:20:15.450 --> 00:20:17.430
they were firing them as revenge because they

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:19.230
were right or something. No, they were firing

00:20:19.230 --> 00:20:23.349
them because they thought that they were presenting

00:20:23.349 --> 00:20:27.970
a pro -communist position by saying that there

00:20:27.970 --> 00:20:29.349
was something wrong with the government fighting

00:20:29.349 --> 00:20:31.869
against the communists. And then this was part

00:20:31.869 --> 00:20:33.890
of a monolithic communism. Therefore, if you

00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:35.609
supported any of it, you were supporting all

00:20:35.609 --> 00:20:38.450
of it. Therefore, it made you an enemy. I mean,

00:20:38.470 --> 00:20:41.660
there's a lot to it. That goes into saying they

00:20:41.660 --> 00:20:43.579
were fired for being right. Some people knew

00:20:43.579 --> 00:20:46.339
that this was bullshit. Sure. Some people knew

00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:48.420
this, and this was something that was being done

00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:53.940
to get very noisy, very critical, very popular,

00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:59.220
very populist even, people in Congress off their

00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:02.559
back. So this is almost like they want to sacrifice,

00:21:02.660 --> 00:21:06.049
so we're going to give them these guys. What

00:21:06.049 --> 00:21:09.410
are we giving up by giving them these guys? You

00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:11.809
know, we can kind of see some echoes. So when

00:21:11.809 --> 00:21:13.210
you say giving them these guys, let's be clear.

00:21:13.289 --> 00:21:16.549
The China hands. No, I know that. What I'm trying

00:21:16.549 --> 00:21:18.730
to say is let's be clear for our listeners. By

00:21:18.730 --> 00:21:21.349
giving up these guys, you're saying by firing

00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:24.269
these people and getting them out of government.

00:21:24.369 --> 00:21:27.730
Yes. The people who were the China hands who

00:21:27.730 --> 00:21:32.609
were correct about how incompetent and corrupt

00:21:32.609 --> 00:21:36.039
the nationalist government in China was. By firing

00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:39.500
them, you were appeasing the populists, the anti

00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:42.160
-communist types, the very fervent anti -communist

00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.359
types. And to some people, that was a sacrifice

00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.220
worth making, and you're going to say that it

00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:49.019
was not, right? It was not. That's what we're

00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:50.440
getting into here. It was totally not, because

00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:52.119
basically what you're doing is you're killing

00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:54.740
off all your expertise, unlike what we're seeing

00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:59.039
today. And essentially, this is going to come

00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.460
back to bite us in the ass when we're looking

00:22:01.460 --> 00:22:04.140
at other parts of Asia, because we're not...

00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:07.589
They may be called the China hands, but you don't

00:22:07.589 --> 00:22:12.569
really have expertise in Asia. The only other

00:22:12.569 --> 00:22:14.509
country that you have expertise in Asia is Japan.

00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.829
And so a lot of these guys were dual -hatted

00:22:17.829 --> 00:22:20.089
to look at other parts of Asia and understood

00:22:20.089 --> 00:22:23.470
other parts of Asia. I mean, to go back to, and

00:22:23.470 --> 00:22:26.190
I'll introduce him again, Theodore White. Theodore

00:22:26.190 --> 00:22:29.559
White, who was Henry Luce's... Time magazine,

00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:33.279
China correspondent. He also covered Indochina

00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:35.759
and Thailand. And the same thing worked with

00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:38.299
some of these guys. They had areas of expertise

00:22:38.299 --> 00:22:42.960
in Indochina and elsewhere. They had a certain

00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.480
understanding about how China related to those

00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:51.700
places. And without that level of expertise,

00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:54.740
without this fact -based analysis, you're going

00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:58.140
to end up with people making stuff up that sounds

00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:01.160
good, that is consistent with a fundamentally

00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.339
false worldview. And for those who don't know,

00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.720
Indochina was what is now Vietnam, Cambodia,

00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:10.259
and Laos, just so everybody knows where that

00:23:10.259 --> 00:23:12.119
was. It was a French colony at the time called

00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:26.769
French Indochina. To carry on here, the American

00:23:26.769 --> 00:23:29.509
government eliminated all its expertise in Asia

00:23:29.509 --> 00:23:34.250
to atone for the victory of Chairman Mao. When

00:23:34.250 --> 00:23:37.029
exactly did this take place? This took place

00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:39.230
over a period of time. I mean, the white paper

00:23:39.230 --> 00:23:41.650
comes out in 49, so most of these guys are still,

00:23:41.849 --> 00:23:44.670
most of the China hands, and we're talking 20

00:23:44.670 --> 00:23:48.329
years plus, in some cases, of expertise. People

00:23:48.329 --> 00:23:50.230
had lived in China, people had been at the embassy,

00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:55.490
etc. They didn't have much of a political pull

00:23:55.490 --> 00:23:57.329
because these guys are always living outside

00:23:57.329 --> 00:24:01.410
of the United States. So they're kind of expatriates

00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:04.390
on the government dime here. So this is happening

00:24:04.390 --> 00:24:11.890
roughly between 49, end of 49, where things start

00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:17.190
cooking, all the way up to the mid -50s. And

00:24:17.190 --> 00:24:19.470
we don't just see this with China. We also see

00:24:19.470 --> 00:24:21.920
this. with some of the Russia hands as well.

00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:24.819
They were a little bit cagier and capable of

00:24:24.819 --> 00:24:27.059
dealing with this. But anybody who had kind of

00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:29.059
understanding of either of these countries, why

00:24:29.059 --> 00:24:33.240
the hell are they interested in them? What is

00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.680
that all about? Clearly - So you're probably

00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.619
a communist if you're interested in Russia. Yeah.

00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:39.059
You're probably a communist if you're interested

00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:41.519
in China, or at least the communist side of China,

00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.019
mainland China. I mean, just to divert a little

00:24:44.019 --> 00:24:50.680
bit, I mean, Chips Bolin was Eisenhower's selection

00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:55.480
for ambassador to Russia. And he was part of

00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:57.420
a group of people similar to the China hands

00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:00.420
who was an expert in Russia. He had done time

00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:04.559
at the embassy. They were a strong, hard line

00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.680
against Stalin. And yet for some reason, various

00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.039
populist anti -communist thought he was a communist

00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.619
because he had spent time in the Soviet Union.

00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:18.500
And it took a lot of heavy lifting to get somebody

00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:22.660
who is opposed to Stalin, who hates communism.

00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.799
You cannot go. No one can go. I mean, I went

00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.880
to Russia in 92. You cannot go there and see

00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:34.279
the mess that that place is in certain areas

00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:37.799
without coming away with a sentimental attitude

00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.279
about communism. You're just going to be disgusted

00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.200
by it. All of this, maybe you're going to get

00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.200
into this, and that's fine if you are, but all

00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.819
this brings up a curious kind of a juxtaposition

00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:50.539
here in my mind, all right? In the last episode,

00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.539
when we were talking about the Chinese Civil

00:25:52.539 --> 00:25:56.400
War. What came out of that was sort of an idea

00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.619
that while the United States wasn't really thrilled

00:25:59.619 --> 00:26:01.460
with the idea of the communists taking over the

00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:06.480
country, we also, our government, gave up on

00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:10.900
the nationalist government as a viable government

00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:12.440
that could defeat the communists. Because they

00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:14.160
didn't see them as a viable alternative. Yeah,

00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.440
and our priorities lay elsewhere. Our priorities

00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.359
lay in Korea and in Japan. Korea, because it's

00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.549
a good buffer for Japan. against, well, the Soviet

00:26:22.549 --> 00:26:26.170
Union and China. So in other words, what I'm

00:26:26.170 --> 00:26:27.789
trying to get at here is it seems like there's

00:26:27.789 --> 00:26:31.190
this sudden break. So people aren't really caring

00:26:31.190 --> 00:26:34.390
that much about what happens in China, frankly.

00:26:34.589 --> 00:26:36.670
In fact, they're caring less as the 40s wear

00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:39.329
on. They're caring less in the government as

00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:41.430
the civil war goes poorly. They're caring less

00:26:41.430 --> 00:26:44.549
and less. Their focus is elsewhere. The nationalist

00:26:44.549 --> 00:26:47.630
government retreats to Taiwan, which you could

00:26:47.630 --> 00:26:51.009
see coming for a while. before it happened. Yes.

00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:53.990
But now suddenly, like turning a light switch,

00:26:54.230 --> 00:26:56.130
everyone's searching, everyone's communist hunting

00:26:56.130 --> 00:26:57.789
and going after everybody because there must

00:26:57.789 --> 00:26:59.329
be a bunch of communists who let this happen.

00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:02.369
But at the time, no one was really caring that

00:27:02.369 --> 00:27:05.089
much that it happened. So what's this? Well,

00:27:05.150 --> 00:27:07.190
what's going on? What's this light switch that

00:27:07.190 --> 00:27:09.190
turns? All right. It's not so much a light switch.

00:27:09.230 --> 00:27:10.970
I should have a different light switching on

00:27:10.970 --> 00:27:14.509
here. Okay. All right. So within the government,

00:27:14.809 --> 00:27:18.269
you know, you're correcting your characterization.

00:27:20.500 --> 00:27:23.440
But other branches of the government, say within

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.140
the Congress and within – So you're saying within

00:27:26.140 --> 00:27:27.859
the executive branch, what I described was kind

00:27:27.859 --> 00:27:29.460
of the attitude. Yes, that's kind of the attitude.

00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:32.019
Yeah, OK. More or less of the people who's –

00:27:32.019 --> 00:27:35.880
there are, as we discussed in the last episode,

00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:40.619
there were proponents like Secretary of Defense

00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:44.180
Johnson who were very strong pro – Lewis Johnson.

00:27:44.460 --> 00:27:47.480
Lewis Johnson. Yeah, OK. So – Who are pro -what?

00:27:47.579 --> 00:27:51.579
Who are pro -Cheng. Yeah. And Johnson really

00:27:51.579 --> 00:27:53.759
didn't want the white paper to go out at all.

00:27:53.779 --> 00:27:55.960
Okay, right. He was totally opposed to this.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.319
He thought that it unfairly castigated Chiang

00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.859
Kai -shek. And then you have other people because,

00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:07.240
you know, Claire Chenault is still advocating

00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:10.019
for Chiang Kai -shek, as we talked about in the

00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:12.940
last episode. And then you have people in Congress

00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:17.680
like Congressman Judd and other. People, to include

00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.559
Richard Nixon. And their attitude as the fall

00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:23.920
is happening is just, we just need a little bit

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.500
more money. A little bit more money. I mean,

00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:28.920
we spent billions upon billions upon billions

00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:33.099
trying to prop up Chiang Kai -shek. And he is

00:28:33.099 --> 00:28:37.539
just totally uninvolved with this towards the

00:28:37.539 --> 00:28:41.000
end. He actually resigns. Who is? Chiang Kai

00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.730
-shek. He is totally uninvolved. He becomes disassociated

00:28:45.730 --> 00:28:48.529
with the whole situation. In the United States?

00:28:48.849 --> 00:28:53.269
In China. He ends up stepping down from his leadership

00:28:53.269 --> 00:28:56.410
position and goes to Taiwan. And goes to Taiwan.

00:28:56.529 --> 00:29:00.529
He goes to Taiwan. But he led the nationalist

00:29:00.529 --> 00:29:02.450
government in Taiwan. His government went with

00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:05.130
him, right? Yes. But there were still people

00:29:05.130 --> 00:29:08.329
who were remaining. As part of the, I mean, because

00:29:08.329 --> 00:29:11.250
49, it's a process that this is happening. Yeah,

00:29:11.289 --> 00:29:14.670
there was still fighting in China in 1950. Yeah.

00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:17.509
Actually, yeah. Okay. So you're saying he, what

00:29:17.509 --> 00:29:19.250
you're saying is he left the nationalists on

00:29:19.250 --> 00:29:22.089
the mainland behind. Yeah, he just, he. He moved

00:29:22.089 --> 00:29:24.549
to Taiwan. Yeah. He was running things on Taiwan,

00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:26.369
but he left them to their own devices, basically.

00:29:26.829 --> 00:29:29.230
Okay. You know. All right. I'm with you on that.

00:29:29.250 --> 00:29:34.099
So, I mean, this is actually. it actually supports

00:29:34.099 --> 00:29:37.059
this notion that he was an ineffective leader.

00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:43.599
He is not Winston Churchill in 1940. He is kind

00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:48.799
of a mediocre general who got lucky, is what

00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.140
we could ultimately say about him. But for all

00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:56.519
these other people, he is this shining, towering

00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.630
figure that is going to change China. Forever.

00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:02.549
So maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, but

00:30:02.549 --> 00:30:05.769
then apparently there was this huge communist

00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:07.769
conspiracy which undermined him, which is the

00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:09.809
only reason he lost, I suppose, right? But before

00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:12.589
we come to that. They kept focusing all the corruption

00:30:12.589 --> 00:30:14.509
and stuff. Yeah. Now, before we come to that,

00:30:14.509 --> 00:30:16.750
though, what I still want to get into here is

00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:21.849
there is a change then in the United States government

00:30:21.849 --> 00:30:24.490
and its attitude toward China, where in 1948,

00:30:25.289 --> 00:30:28.430
49, we're just letting it go. and focusing our

00:30:28.430 --> 00:30:31.670
attention in East Asia elsewhere. But then from

00:30:31.670 --> 00:30:37.049
1950 -ish onward, we are now suddenly in high

00:30:37.049 --> 00:30:39.950
dudgeon over what went on in China. There is

00:30:39.950 --> 00:30:42.569
a remarkable change that happens there, and a

00:30:42.569 --> 00:30:46.490
fairly sudden one, it seems to me. Well, it's

00:30:46.490 --> 00:30:48.819
not... Because you also had people who were,

00:30:48.859 --> 00:30:51.500
you know, the China hands and such, right? Saying,

00:30:51.700 --> 00:30:53.839
well, you know, Chung is a terrible leader and

00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:55.400
it's not going to work. And, you know, we should

00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:58.559
make some kind of accommodation with the communists

00:30:58.559 --> 00:30:59.440
because they're the ones who are going to take

00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.579
over. Truman even hoped that there would be a

00:31:01.579 --> 00:31:05.029
Tito -like. Marshall Tito in Yugoslavia split

00:31:05.029 --> 00:31:06.809
from the Soviets, that there'd be some kind of

00:31:06.809 --> 00:31:09.970
a similar split there, which did eventually happen,

00:31:10.049 --> 00:31:13.150
but not right away. Or what Truman ultimately

00:31:13.150 --> 00:31:16.250
wanted was he wanted a third option that was

00:31:16.250 --> 00:31:19.430
neither Chiang nor Mao, but there would be like

00:31:19.430 --> 00:31:22.450
the good... Yeah, there'd be a coalition government

00:31:22.450 --> 00:31:24.190
that would work things out. The good people of

00:31:24.190 --> 00:31:28.289
China would come together when Mao's communist...

00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:31.339
government failed, these people would come in

00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:34.279
and overthrow him, etc. So that was the state

00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.019
of play when Chiang Kai -shek left for Taiwan.

00:31:37.660 --> 00:31:42.299
There's a remarkable change in attitude that

00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:44.940
happens within a year of that, which is what

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.759
you're getting into. Yeah, because these people,

00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:51.119
the people that had always thought very highly

00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:56.799
of Chiang Kai -shek, and they are people... More

00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.440
in the Congress, I would say, more wishing to

00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:03.160
score debating points against the Democrats,

00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:06.980
against Truman and the Democrats. These guys

00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:11.869
are basically saying. There is communist influence

00:32:11.869 --> 00:32:14.849
on our foreign policy. There's communist influence.

00:32:15.109 --> 00:32:17.049
So these are Republican people in Congress? Republican

00:32:17.049 --> 00:32:18.369
people in Congress. Senators in Congress. Yes.

00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:20.869
Okay. Led by McCarthy, or at least... Well, no,

00:32:21.089 --> 00:32:23.529
McCarthy's not there yet. McCarthy... Okay, 52.

00:32:23.650 --> 00:32:27.009
McCarthy is who makes the name, but McCarthy

00:32:27.009 --> 00:32:30.250
basically... McCarthy was just a drunk, you know.

00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.680
I mean, he was a drunk and basically he went

00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:36.339
out to dinner one night with one of the Jesuits

00:32:36.339 --> 00:32:39.539
from Georgetown, forget his name. And McCarthy's

00:32:39.539 --> 00:32:42.119
like, I can't seem to come up with an issue.

00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:45.779
And this guy from Georgetown basically says,

00:32:45.940 --> 00:32:49.259
how about communism? That might be something

00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:51.079
you might want to consider. So if I'm understanding

00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:53.599
you then, I just want to make sure this is clear,

00:32:53.700 --> 00:32:55.900
like we're all on the same page here. If I'm

00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:58.269
understanding you then, so. The executive branch

00:32:58.269 --> 00:33:00.470
was having its own internal arguments about policy

00:33:00.470 --> 00:33:02.970
back and forth. The idea of a big conspiracy

00:33:02.970 --> 00:33:05.509
being behind all this arose out of Congress.

00:33:05.910 --> 00:33:09.230
And the Republican Party. Well, okay, but they're

00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:13.109
in Congress. So it arose out of Congress, which

00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:16.109
is where this all came from, which then began

00:33:16.109 --> 00:33:18.430
affecting the executive branch. It didn't originate

00:33:18.430 --> 00:33:20.150
in the executive branch, this whole idea of a

00:33:20.150 --> 00:33:21.869
big conspiracy or something. That originated

00:33:21.869 --> 00:33:23.369
from Congress, and you're saying from the Republican

00:33:23.369 --> 00:33:27.089
Party. And also press. Were there no... like

00:33:27.089 --> 00:33:29.269
more conservative Democrats who thought this

00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:32.630
way? Was it really? I mean, the parties had more

00:33:32.630 --> 00:33:34.970
overlap in those days than they do now. And so

00:33:34.970 --> 00:33:37.529
I wonder, like, I don't know. I wonder, like,

00:33:37.549 --> 00:33:39.650
how many more conservative Democrats there were

00:33:39.650 --> 00:33:43.029
who agreed with this and less conservative Republicans

00:33:43.029 --> 00:33:45.049
who disagreed with it. I don't think that anybody

00:33:45.049 --> 00:33:48.049
was really pro -Mao or wanted to accommodate

00:33:48.049 --> 00:33:51.890
Mao. And ultimately... In either party. In either

00:33:51.890 --> 00:33:55.009
party. Yeah, okay. You know, you had these civil

00:33:55.009 --> 00:34:01.579
servants, who advocated, say, closer ties or

00:34:01.579 --> 00:34:04.339
recognition. Really, it comes down to recognition

00:34:04.339 --> 00:34:10.260
of the People's Republic of China. As the legitimate

00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:11.719
government of China. As the legitimate government

00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:14.139
of China. That was really what they were advocating.

00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:18.760
And that sounds like a little issue to us, but

00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:21.659
really, the real name for the China lobby was

00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:24.420
the Committee for One Million to prevent recognition

00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:30.889
of communist china so the debate kind of wound

00:34:30.889 --> 00:34:35.969
up being people who were not in favor of mao

00:34:35.969 --> 00:34:38.489
and the communists taking over china but accepted

00:34:38.489 --> 00:34:41.769
it as a fact as a fact as inevitable and also

00:34:41.769 --> 00:34:44.050
accepted the idea that the nationalists had screwed

00:34:44.050 --> 00:34:45.909
up their war effort and their government so much

00:34:45.909 --> 00:34:48.630
that this was an obvious outcome of it right

00:34:48.630 --> 00:34:50.590
some kind of combination of those thoughts and

00:34:50.590 --> 00:34:52.030
we have to deal with the world the way it is

00:34:52.030 --> 00:34:55.230
then you had these other people who were pro

00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.099
uh chung to the end pro -republic of china as

00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:01.400
the only legitimate government and then there's

00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:04.639
a there's a big is at least a big overlap if

00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:08.440
not a total overlap between them and these populist

00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:10.980
demagogue types who are rising up out of congress

00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:13.420
and saying there must be a communist conspiracy

00:35:13.420 --> 00:35:15.780
behind all of this and i mean is that a fair

00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:17.380
way to characterize all these different things

00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:20.119
coming together or one other aspect okay yeah

00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.940
the other aspect of this is that they would always

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:26.900
say All Chiang needed was just a little bit of

00:35:26.900 --> 00:35:31.239
a push towards the end, and he could have triumphed.

00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.659
This is kind of what they were saying in World

00:35:34.659 --> 00:35:36.559
War II, isn't it? Yes. That didn't really change

00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.960
that much. No. But the China lobby is important

00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:45.440
to consider. That, again, to bring something

00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.139
up that we talked about in the previous episode.

00:35:47.929 --> 00:35:50.829
That's being funded by the Song family. So let's

00:35:50.829 --> 00:35:53.530
get very clear then. It's the AIPAC of its time.

00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:55.650
When you talk about the China lobby, you're talking

00:35:55.650 --> 00:35:58.210
about the pro -Chung Kai -shek, pro -nationalist

00:35:58.210 --> 00:36:00.489
government, pro -people on Taiwan. No, no, no,

00:36:00.510 --> 00:36:03.230
no. I am talking about the people in Congress

00:36:03.230 --> 00:36:06.550
and the press. who are getting funded by the

00:36:06.550 --> 00:36:10.110
Song family to support Chiang Kai -shek on Taiwan.

00:36:10.590 --> 00:36:11.730
We're saying the same thing in two different

00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:14.010
ways. What I'm trying to simplify it, though,

00:36:14.030 --> 00:36:16.570
these are the people who were pro -Taiwan, pro

00:36:16.570 --> 00:36:19.429
-Chiang Kai -shek, pro -Republic of China. That's

00:36:19.429 --> 00:36:21.829
who the China lobby is. Don't get that confused

00:36:21.829 --> 00:36:24.510
with the China hands, who are the people who

00:36:24.510 --> 00:36:27.489
were more, what's the right word, more accepting

00:36:27.489 --> 00:36:29.650
of, more realistic about the fact of Mao and

00:36:29.650 --> 00:36:31.809
communism. Being inevitable. Being inevitable.

00:36:33.230 --> 00:36:35.829
So the China lobby and the China hands are two

00:36:35.829 --> 00:36:37.550
different terms we have to keep separate so that

00:36:37.550 --> 00:36:39.070
everybody understands what they are. And they're

00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:40.289
the opposite. That's why I'm saying they're the

00:36:40.289 --> 00:36:42.389
opposite. So the China lobby opposes the China

00:36:42.389 --> 00:36:45.289
hands and vice versa, right? That's the way to

00:36:45.289 --> 00:36:48.369
think of it. Wasn't there also a perception that

00:36:48.369 --> 00:36:55.250
the communists in China would link with the communists

00:36:55.250 --> 00:36:59.780
in... the USSR. Oh, yes, they were. I'm just

00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:01.820
going to say it out loud because that's the monolith

00:37:01.820 --> 00:37:03.760
that everybody was afraid of. That's the big

00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:08.320
boogeyman. There was communism and every country

00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.260
was the same. There were no nationalist considerations,

00:37:11.659 --> 00:37:13.219
no geographic ones. It was all communism. That's

00:37:13.219 --> 00:37:17.599
the light switch. Well, yes, and also nuclear

00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.340
weapons. If you want to talk about a light switch,

00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:22.420
we'll go back to what I was saying at the beginning.

00:37:22.659 --> 00:37:24.539
If you want to talk about what flipped the light,

00:37:25.070 --> 00:37:27.829
The thing that flipped the light is nuclear weapons

00:37:27.829 --> 00:37:31.550
by the Soviet Union and Mao taking over China.

00:37:31.969 --> 00:37:34.289
That's what changes everything. Which happened

00:37:34.289 --> 00:37:37.010
in the same year. Yes. Within the same season

00:37:37.010 --> 00:37:41.389
in fall, you know, September for the nuclear

00:37:41.389 --> 00:37:45.670
blast and or at least when we knew about it,

00:37:45.710 --> 00:37:47.170
when we were able to figure this out. It wasn't

00:37:47.170 --> 00:37:49.550
like the Russians announced this. They were rather

00:37:49.550 --> 00:37:51.789
secretive people. But they knew that we would

00:37:51.789 --> 00:37:55.909
figure it out. And then in October. October 1st,

00:37:55.909 --> 00:37:59.469
you end up with Mao taking over Beijing and kind

00:37:59.469 --> 00:38:02.130
of setting up a government there. That is kind

00:38:02.130 --> 00:38:03.750
of, if we're going to say that's the light switch,

00:38:03.809 --> 00:38:05.710
that's the light switch there. Just so everybody

00:38:05.710 --> 00:38:08.969
knows, the Soviet Union detonated its first atomic

00:38:08.969 --> 00:38:11.989
bomb in 1949. We, of course, did in 1945. We

00:38:11.989 --> 00:38:14.469
used it, Alamogordo, New Mexico. We tested it,

00:38:14.530 --> 00:38:16.250
and then we dropped the bombs. Oppenheimer. Yeah,

00:38:16.289 --> 00:38:17.690
and then we tested Oppenheimer. We tested the

00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:20.889
bombs on Hiroshima. We used the bombs on Hiroshima

00:38:20.889 --> 00:38:25.010
and Nagasaki. That was all in 1945. The Soviets

00:38:25.010 --> 00:38:28.550
came up with their own atom bomb in 1949. And

00:38:28.550 --> 00:38:32.050
then their own hydrogen bomb, which is a whole

00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:35.750
next level kind of a weapon, was 1952 or 1953,

00:38:36.269 --> 00:38:39.170
I think it was, was the first Soviet hydrogen

00:38:39.170 --> 00:38:40.969
bomb. I'm just playing a timeline out for people

00:38:40.969 --> 00:38:44.530
that aren't that familiar with it. Because the

00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:47.550
whole nuclear thing. You know, you have these

00:38:47.550 --> 00:38:50.230
highly sophisticated weapons. There's all these

00:38:50.230 --> 00:38:54.829
reports about atom bomb spies and so forth with

00:38:54.829 --> 00:38:58.969
the Rosenbergs and various other. And these are

00:38:58.969 --> 00:39:01.429
fair things to say because, you know, with the

00:39:01.429 --> 00:39:03.349
exception of Ethel Rosenberg, who was executed

00:39:03.349 --> 00:39:05.510
for just being in the wrong place at the wrong

00:39:05.510 --> 00:39:08.349
time by Roy Cohn, all of these guys were actually

00:39:08.349 --> 00:39:12.429
involved in getting nuclear secrets to the Soviet

00:39:12.429 --> 00:39:17.920
Union. So there were. The right wing did have

00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:21.300
a point when they're talking about security problems

00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:25.159
and security issues regarding nuclear secrets,

00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:29.239
and that this is part of an overall... That part,

00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:31.320
I would say, yeah, that is an international conspiracy

00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:35.130
to steal nuclear secrets from us. For having

00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:38.789
a unified theory about how to take over the world

00:39:38.789 --> 00:39:41.690
and to destroy the United States and capitalism,

00:39:42.030 --> 00:39:45.150
there's a lot of propaganda there, but there's

00:39:45.150 --> 00:39:47.809
not a lot of reality there, I would argue. And

00:39:47.809 --> 00:39:51.650
how close were Stalin and Mao anyway? They hated

00:39:51.650 --> 00:39:54.289
each other. Well, let's just say Stalin kind

00:39:54.289 --> 00:39:57.829
of viewed him with a certain degree of disdain,

00:39:57.829 --> 00:39:59.590
kind of like what we were talking about at the

00:39:59.590 --> 00:40:02.510
end of last episode, where he kept Mao waiting.

00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:07.969
in Moscow. And then Mao was willing to put up

00:40:07.969 --> 00:40:09.769
with stuff from Stalin because at this point,

00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:13.929
Stalin's a legend. Stalin knew Lenin. He was

00:40:13.929 --> 00:40:17.289
part of the Russian Revolution. He had kind of

00:40:17.289 --> 00:40:21.130
built the Soviet Union out of nothing and had

00:40:21.130 --> 00:40:25.469
taken this backward place and made it into a

00:40:25.469 --> 00:40:29.829
real world superpower. And also Mao kind of needs

00:40:29.829 --> 00:40:34.509
him. But Mao kind of resents this. ultimately,

00:40:34.509 --> 00:40:37.849
because Stalin's going to give him so much, but

00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:39.369
he's also going to get him involved in the Korean

00:40:39.369 --> 00:40:42.530
War, like we discussed last time. And I don't

00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:44.449
think Mao was actually ready to get involved

00:40:44.449 --> 00:40:46.829
in the Korean War. He was looking for three to

00:40:46.829 --> 00:40:50.349
five years of peace and prosperity there in order

00:40:50.349 --> 00:40:52.170
to rebuild the state. The whole thing really

00:40:52.170 --> 00:40:54.210
comes down to this, and it goes beyond just the

00:40:54.210 --> 00:40:57.309
Soviet Union or Russia and China, right? Is that

00:40:57.309 --> 00:41:02.909
because of the theory of Marxism -Leninism, It

00:41:02.909 --> 00:41:05.150
has the idea the international proletariat is

00:41:05.150 --> 00:41:06.650
going to rise up and overthrow the capitalist

00:41:06.650 --> 00:41:11.050
oppressors and all that. That's the theory. Now,

00:41:11.090 --> 00:41:13.230
that's impractical and wrong, but that's the

00:41:13.230 --> 00:41:16.130
theory. And so you can tar anybody who's communist

00:41:16.130 --> 00:41:17.929
or pro -communist with that because that's what

00:41:17.929 --> 00:41:20.690
the theory says. But in fact, from the very beginning,

00:41:20.909 --> 00:41:25.090
it took on a nationalist type of character. The

00:41:25.090 --> 00:41:28.610
Soviet Union was pursuing Russian interests that

00:41:28.610 --> 00:41:32.989
predated. and have gone on since communism ended

00:41:32.989 --> 00:41:37.769
there. And communism was an organizing principle

00:41:37.769 --> 00:41:40.469
to get together a movement, a government, to

00:41:40.469 --> 00:41:42.570
overthrow things like colonial oppressors and

00:41:42.570 --> 00:41:45.389
things. But that's how it wound up actually getting

00:41:45.389 --> 00:41:48.170
used in the 20th century in most cases. And in

00:41:48.170 --> 00:41:50.289
most cases, the leaders of these countries, or

00:41:50.289 --> 00:41:52.690
the communist insurgent leaders or things who

00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:54.230
took over the country. Particularly after World

00:41:54.230 --> 00:41:56.210
War II. After World War II. They were actually

00:41:56.210 --> 00:41:58.510
focused on the national interests of their country.

00:41:59.259 --> 00:42:01.760
Now, sure, they might not like capitalists very

00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:04.619
much. Sure, they may not be big on the stock

00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:07.559
market. Sure, they may decide to set prices themselves

00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:09.360
and not let the market economy do it. There's

00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.679
all sorts of communist things they do. But they're

00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:14.340
not focused on supporting an international communist

00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:16.360
movement, really. They might give some lip service

00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:19.500
to it. They're focused on their country's interests.

00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:21.360
And that happens over and over again. Russia,

00:42:21.579 --> 00:42:24.920
China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, you name it.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.219
Wherever communism is, North Korea, wherever

00:42:27.219 --> 00:42:29.500
communism has taken over. They're looking out

00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:31.599
for their own interests in their own country,

00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:33.980
not for some international movement, no matter

00:42:33.980 --> 00:42:35.900
how much lip service they give to it. And I mean,

00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.380
one of the reasons that they would be naturally

00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:41.500
anti -capitalist is because a lot of these places

00:42:41.500 --> 00:42:44.400
were either colonies or used as colonies or exploited

00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:48.920
by capitalist systems. So they're not going to

00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:52.099
be like, you know, junior achievement proponents

00:42:52.099 --> 00:42:54.559
here. They're going to be opposed to this system,

00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:58.389
which exploited people and used them as... you

00:42:58.389 --> 00:43:00.869
know, nothing better than animals in some cases.

00:43:00.949 --> 00:43:03.650
Yeah, like, you know, gee, let's have the Dutch,

00:43:03.690 --> 00:43:06.070
French, British, you know, whoever, all come

00:43:06.070 --> 00:43:07.849
back and take over again after World War II,

00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:09.610
right? Now, you know, people would say, well,

00:43:09.650 --> 00:43:11.889
let's not. And then here's a leader who happens

00:43:11.889 --> 00:43:14.889
to be communist, who can put together a movement,

00:43:14.989 --> 00:43:17.030
an army, you know, a military to throw the colonial

00:43:17.030 --> 00:43:19.769
suppressors out and like that, right? Who are

00:43:19.769 --> 00:43:22.360
you going to side with? And I mean, communism

00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:25.500
was very seductive to people after World War

00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:28.739
I. It was like this was the way of the future.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.260
But the idea of monolithic communism was very

00:43:32.260 --> 00:43:35.400
seductive to Americans. But see, that's what

00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.000
I learned in school. That's what I was taught.

00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:41.420
And remember... And it just wasn't fully the

00:43:41.420 --> 00:43:44.730
case. During the 50s, let's just say... things

00:43:44.730 --> 00:43:46.789
are going to go from bad to worse. It was very

00:43:46.789 --> 00:43:48.610
seductive to us, and it took us a long, long

00:43:48.610 --> 00:43:51.230
time to learn that it was not the case that there

00:43:51.230 --> 00:43:53.909
was monolithic communism, because we didn't really

00:43:53.909 --> 00:43:56.010
want to hear it. Nope. Because we talked in earlier

00:43:56.010 --> 00:43:57.570
episodes, I've said this over and over again

00:43:57.570 --> 00:43:59.750
in these podcasts, right? The United States wants

00:43:59.750 --> 00:44:01.449
everybody to be Americans and thinks that they

00:44:01.449 --> 00:44:04.090
want to be Americans. We've been trying to export

00:44:04.090 --> 00:44:06.750
a revolution since 1776, as I've said more than

00:44:06.750 --> 00:44:09.110
once. So because of that, if people actually

00:44:09.110 --> 00:44:11.030
don't wind up being like Americans, I don't know,

00:44:11.050 --> 00:44:13.550
they follow a communist leader. Or an Islamic

00:44:13.550 --> 00:44:16.570
leader. How could that be? We're the good guys.

00:44:16.610 --> 00:44:17.969
Everyone has to be like us. How could that be?

00:44:18.030 --> 00:44:20.889
It must be because of some dark conspiracy. Yeah.

00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:24.210
And hey, that dark conspiracy, monolithic communism,

00:44:24.449 --> 00:44:27.190
this whole international movement trying to undermine

00:44:27.190 --> 00:44:29.489
us and overthrow us and make everybody evil and

00:44:29.489 --> 00:44:33.510
wrong and bad. And that's a very seductive argument

00:44:33.510 --> 00:44:35.429
to a lot of Americans. It still is. It worked.

00:44:35.690 --> 00:44:38.789
It still is today, by the way. Yeah, it drove

00:44:38.789 --> 00:44:41.349
policy for decades. And it offers you a simple

00:44:41.349 --> 00:44:43.489
answer to a complex situation, doesn't it? Yeah.

00:44:43.570 --> 00:44:45.110
How do we understand the world around us? Well,

00:44:45.150 --> 00:44:46.769
I have one simple answer for you. There's this

00:44:46.769 --> 00:44:49.389
dark conspiracy, right? You don't have to know

00:44:49.389 --> 00:44:51.449
anything about Vietnam or China or Russia or

00:44:51.449 --> 00:44:52.969
their history. All you have to know is there's

00:44:52.969 --> 00:44:55.719
a dark conspiracy. And that can be exploited

00:44:55.719 --> 00:44:57.940
by people who are prone to thinking that way.

00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:00.780
So it's very seductive for Americans as well.

00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:14.659
I would like to return back to de Gaulle. And

00:45:14.659 --> 00:45:17.559
de Gaulle understood the world, I think, better.

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:20.300
Charles de Gaulle. Charles de Gaulle. Leader

00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:23.090
of the Free French in World War II. And president

00:45:23.090 --> 00:45:28.610
of France from 1958 to 69. And de Gaulle had

00:45:28.610 --> 00:45:30.789
a, you know, I think de Gaulle just had a really

00:45:30.789 --> 00:45:34.949
good sense about the world. He basically never

00:45:34.949 --> 00:45:37.909
used the term Soviet. He always referred to them

00:45:37.909 --> 00:45:43.429
as Russians or Russia. And he would say... And

00:45:43.429 --> 00:45:45.590
that's significant because the Soviet Union really

00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:49.389
was sort of the Russian Empire, you know, in

00:45:49.389 --> 00:45:52.039
a different form. And on steroids to a certain

00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:54.260
degree. It always was something that was pursuing

00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:57.579
Russian national interests. So what de Gaulle

00:45:57.579 --> 00:46:01.699
said was that nationalism is the problem. Leaders

00:46:01.699 --> 00:46:05.139
use ideology for their own purposes. Lenin's

00:46:05.139 --> 00:46:07.239
communism was different than Stalin's. Khrushchev's

00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:10.039
was different than Stalin's. The Soviet Union

00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:13.679
was a construct, de Gaulle observed, but Russia

00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:18.099
is real. And we could say China, Chinese communism

00:46:18.099 --> 00:46:23.659
is a construct. But China is real. So this is

00:46:23.659 --> 00:46:27.519
more sophisticated, a more sophisticated understanding

00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:31.960
about the world than anything we were advocating

00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:37.840
in the 50s and the 60s. So in America, communism

00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.260
was very much in the eye of the beholder. And

00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:42.340
so I'd like to just sort of talk a little bit

00:46:42.340 --> 00:46:46.380
about some of the nonsense that we had. It's

00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:50.480
funny now, but I should emphasize this kind of

00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:54.730
screws us up in terms of... What happens afterwards?

00:46:55.150 --> 00:46:57.449
We've already like gone in and done this mass

00:46:57.449 --> 00:47:00.269
bloodletting within the federal government. And

00:47:00.269 --> 00:47:02.329
this is applied. The firing of all the China

00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:04.429
hands. Yes. All the expertise has gone. And it's

00:47:04.429 --> 00:47:06.469
not just the government, but it's like it's the

00:47:06.469 --> 00:47:09.150
entertainment industry. It's people who write

00:47:09.150 --> 00:47:12.650
books. The blacklist. The blacklist. All of these

00:47:12.650 --> 00:47:16.690
people are kind of like harmed for this. This

00:47:16.690 --> 00:47:19.570
idea of global international monolithic communism,

00:47:19.690 --> 00:47:22.500
which. is something that doesn't really exist.

00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:27.420
And people do not necessarily understand what

00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:29.400
it is that they're talking about. I mean, it's

00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.119
kind of like, you know, back post 9 -11, all

00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:35.739
sorts of people climbed out of the woodwork claiming

00:47:35.739 --> 00:47:38.300
to be experts on terrorism who had never, never

00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:40.940
had anything to do with it. And all of a sudden

00:47:40.940 --> 00:47:43.539
they could walk into a room and they would insist

00:47:43.539 --> 00:47:47.400
on the most. idiotic things that you could possibly

00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:50.840
imagine as being fact here. And so such was the

00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:54.519
thing in communism, in this case. So I want to

00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:57.440
give an example of this. This is my favorite

00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:03.840
one. It's an obscure one. So Stalin was the last

00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:07.000
of the kind of intellectual Bolsheviks, and he

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.519
would turn his attention to kind of arcane topics,

00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:15.480
and he'd write on them. And so one of the items

00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:19.639
that Stalin wrote in 1950 was a pamphlet called

00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.820
Marxism and the Problems in Linguistics. And

00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:28.780
it is what the title actually says. It is a book

00:48:28.780 --> 00:48:32.000
or a pamphlet on linguistics. Stalin probably

00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:33.900
didn't write the whole thing. He had someone

00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:36.079
to do that for him, but it reflected his ideas.

00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:39.179
Sounds like a real page -turner. Oh, I read it,

00:48:39.219 --> 00:48:44.800
and it is. Now, John Foster Dulles, the Secretary

00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.900
of State under Eisenhower, also read it. And

00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:50.940
he drew a slightly different conclusion than

00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:54.460
I did or you might. He saw this as nothing less

00:48:54.460 --> 00:48:57.480
than Stalin's Mein Kampf. Because they all have

00:48:57.480 --> 00:48:59.900
to have a Mein Kampf. Mein Kampf was Hitler's,

00:48:59.900 --> 00:49:02.820
you know, plan for global domination. Manifesto

00:49:02.820 --> 00:49:05.320
for global domination. Yes. Wrote in the 20s.

00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:09.920
And it was intended to undermine Russian, to

00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:13.989
undermine Western intellectual. frameworks, and

00:49:13.989 --> 00:49:18.230
it was supposed to act as a kind of means of

00:49:18.230 --> 00:49:21.730
subverting our society. Again, fifth columnist

00:49:21.730 --> 00:49:24.269
and things like that. It brings into question

00:49:24.269 --> 00:49:27.949
the fundamental aspects of Western thought and

00:49:27.949 --> 00:49:31.010
Western society. That's how he read this. It

00:49:31.010 --> 00:49:36.349
is boring as hell, because I did feel compelled

00:49:36.349 --> 00:49:41.849
to read this when I was in graduate school. It's

00:49:41.849 --> 00:49:46.190
not clear that Stalin really made it through

00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:51.909
this book himself, even. But as official takes

00:49:51.909 --> 00:49:56.050
on Marxism went, it was probably not as bad as

00:49:56.050 --> 00:50:02.090
C. David Schein's book. He was one of the men

00:50:02.090 --> 00:50:05.849
that the otherwise heterosexual raccoon lusted

00:50:05.849 --> 00:50:08.489
after and was the author of a six -page pamphlet

00:50:08.489 --> 00:50:12.269
which time turned. an error -ridden but remarkably

00:50:12.269 --> 00:50:18.289
succinct pamphlet on Russian Marxism. So the

00:50:18.289 --> 00:50:21.630
United States, as it moved to take on Russia,

00:50:21.670 --> 00:50:24.469
the Soviet Union, China, or monolithic communism,

00:50:24.550 --> 00:50:27.010
really lacked a good understanding. It had gone

00:50:27.010 --> 00:50:31.610
down the road to fantasy land. Because, I mean,

00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:34.630
part of this is, like you said, disappointment

00:50:34.630 --> 00:50:40.239
with the outcome. Why did they not want to become

00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:44.840
us? Oh, well. World War II was, to a lot of Americans,

00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:49.500
was supposed to forge a whole new world. And

00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:55.219
that new world that it sought to forge was ruined

00:50:55.219 --> 00:50:58.380
by these people. Yes. By these damn communists.

00:50:58.809 --> 00:51:01.630
Right. Which is kind of true. I mean, if you

00:51:01.630 --> 00:51:03.389
did believe in what what Roosevelt wanted to

00:51:03.389 --> 00:51:05.269
have in the world of the future, communists did

00:51:05.269 --> 00:51:07.929
ruin that. But they were going to ruin it all

00:51:07.929 --> 00:51:09.570
the time because that's actually the way the

00:51:09.570 --> 00:51:11.230
world works. The world doesn't want to be a bunch

00:51:11.230 --> 00:51:13.090
of Americans doing things the way Americans would

00:51:13.090 --> 00:51:16.449
do it. It's not about, you know, like it's hard

00:51:16.449 --> 00:51:18.090
enough to get people to think about the good

00:51:18.090 --> 00:51:20.710
of the nation when you think about this. Just

00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:23.210
people in general, not leaders, but people in

00:51:23.210 --> 00:51:25.289
general normally are thinking about their own.

00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:28.480
Lots in line in any country in any country. Yeah,

00:51:28.539 --> 00:51:30.460
you know any society they're gonna think about

00:51:30.460 --> 00:51:32.579
their own comfort their own ability to operate

00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:35.079
there Yeah, that's gonna be their focus. Yeah,

00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:39.699
and so it's hard enough to get a leader of a

00:51:39.699 --> 00:51:42.219
country who is maybe putting the interest of

00:51:42.219 --> 00:51:46.199
the nation as Paramount concerns to think about

00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:49.380
the concerns of the world That's not the way

00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:51.619
the world works. Yes, you know, but sometimes

00:51:51.619 --> 00:51:56.860
you have an event You know that is so overwhelmingly

00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:59.440
and obviously important, let's say World War

00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:02.940
II, that people have no choice but to care about

00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:04.980
the future of the world and feel a vested interest.

00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:06.920
They feel like they've achieved something. They

00:52:06.920 --> 00:52:09.280
thought they had achieved something beyond just

00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:11.719
winning a war. They thought they had created

00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:14.559
a new world. And Americans, again, are prone

00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:18.119
to doing this kind of thing. But that new world

00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:21.079
didn't play out the way we had wanted it to.

00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.260
And that's your disappointment. So in that case,

00:52:24.340 --> 00:52:26.860
you really did have, I think, in the late 40s,

00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:28.460
people were turning back to their own lives.

00:52:29.579 --> 00:52:33.119
But there was a disappointment, just like there

00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.239
was after World War I, that not that much had

00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:37.380
come of it, it turned out. But it didn't go as

00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:39.579
far as World War I. We didn't retreat into isolationism.

00:52:40.099 --> 00:52:43.469
We didn't... you know, refused to join the League

00:52:43.469 --> 00:52:45.170
of Nations, we joined the United Nations, that

00:52:45.170 --> 00:52:47.750
kind of thing. We were the architect behind the

00:52:47.750 --> 00:52:49.849
United Nations. Yeah, it was different. Well,

00:52:49.909 --> 00:52:51.349
we were the architect behind the League of Nations,

00:52:51.429 --> 00:52:55.030
too. We just decided not to join. Yes. But, you

00:52:55.030 --> 00:52:57.090
know, it's not like we gave up on the world the

00:52:57.090 --> 00:52:59.510
way we did after World War I. We did engage with

00:52:59.510 --> 00:53:01.750
the world for the next, well, 75 years anyway,

00:53:01.889 --> 00:53:05.449
until 2015, when someone we know came down that

00:53:05.449 --> 00:53:08.420
escalator. But anyway, that's a whole other thing.

00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:09.480
I don't want to talk about it right now. But

00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:13.860
I mean, just the point is that we did engage,

00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:15.739
but there was disappointment with how things

00:53:15.739 --> 00:53:17.719
had gone. And it was those damn communists who

00:53:17.719 --> 00:53:20.860
had created the problem. I'm going to like just

00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:24.099
to go back to the escalator here. If we will

00:53:24.099 --> 00:53:26.820
just put things in context, current events in

00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:30.179
context, you know, this is at the end of this

00:53:30.179 --> 00:53:32.599
massive effort that we're undertaking in the

00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:37.119
Middle East. We're not exactly pleased with how

00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:41.119
that came out either. You know, like what do

00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:43.699
they want? What more do they want from us? So

00:53:43.699 --> 00:53:45.460
we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. But

00:53:45.460 --> 00:53:47.780
yes, that's more of a World War I type of reaction.

00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:51.599
You know, people don't like us, don't want to

00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:53.139
do what we want. So I guess I'll just retreat

00:53:53.139 --> 00:53:55.900
into myself now. I'm better off that way. Or

00:53:55.900 --> 00:53:59.599
I'm going to basically reject all my allies and

00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:03.260
try to take territory from them or annex them

00:54:03.260 --> 00:54:07.139
because it's like, This sort of like global coalition

00:54:07.139 --> 00:54:10.659
leader role did not bring me the satisfaction

00:54:10.659 --> 00:54:14.139
that I was looking for in these campaigns in

00:54:14.139 --> 00:54:17.260
the Middle East. And because I've invested a

00:54:17.260 --> 00:54:21.059
totally unrealistic vision for that part of the

00:54:21.059 --> 00:54:24.199
world, just as much as I invested an impractical

00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:26.239
vision for China. You're talking about Afghanistan

00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:29.860
and Iraq. Well, but the idea behind the guys

00:54:29.860 --> 00:54:34.760
in that. that Bush was leading there was that

00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:36.619
they were going to remake the whole Middle East.

00:54:36.699 --> 00:54:39.219
Do not think that this was not limited just to

00:54:39.219 --> 00:54:41.739
Iraq and Afghanistan. So Marshall's referring

00:54:41.739 --> 00:54:44.440
to the neoconservatives, the neocons. We're getting

00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:46.960
way far afield here. But we need to come back

00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.739
to the topic. But since Marshall, you know, is

00:54:49.739 --> 00:54:52.079
mentioning these guys, I mean, there was an idea

00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:55.239
that after September 11th, this created an opportunity,

00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:58.360
right? The bad guys had finally gone too far

00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:00.760
by knocking buildings down and killing 3 ,000

00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:02.239
people in one day and all those terrible things

00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:04.900
that happened that day. And we're going to react

00:55:04.900 --> 00:55:06.820
to it. And we're going to react violently and

00:55:06.820 --> 00:55:09.059
significantly to it. But while we're at it, let's

00:55:09.059 --> 00:55:10.820
try to achieve something instructive for us.

00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:12.619
But guess what the constructive thing was going

00:55:12.619 --> 00:55:15.280
to be? A democratic... Let's convert all these

00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:17.460
places into Americas. And I guess Afghanistan,

00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.840
too, although that was a little bit more fanciful.

00:55:20.260 --> 00:55:22.260
Let's convert them all into... But it didn't

00:55:22.260 --> 00:55:24.559
mean they didn't believe it. Right. Let's convert

00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:26.679
them all into Americas. They'll be our friends.

00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:29.559
We can have commerce with them. We can base military

00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:31.880
forces there, so less bad things come from that

00:55:31.880 --> 00:55:34.039
part of the world. And democracy will catch on.

00:55:34.119 --> 00:55:36.019
Yeah. In the region. If you just give them a

00:55:36.019 --> 00:55:38.380
chance, because they want to have democracy like

00:55:38.380 --> 00:55:40.719
American democracy. They all want it. This was...

00:55:40.750 --> 00:55:44.750
said openly. Oh, yeah. I remember. In 2002, 2003,

00:55:44.949 --> 00:55:46.750
when we got over the initial shock, this was

00:55:46.750 --> 00:55:50.329
national policy. Yes. There was an idea that

00:55:50.329 --> 00:55:52.769
was put forth that if you were a democracy, democracies

00:55:52.769 --> 00:55:55.650
don't go to war with each other. Now, I would

00:55:55.650 --> 00:55:58.289
just offer this, because they're looking at World

00:55:58.289 --> 00:56:01.690
War II. People have what I call the history channel

00:56:01.690 --> 00:56:05.510
mentality, where they understand everything from

00:56:05.510 --> 00:56:07.630
World War II on up because there's film of it.

00:56:08.349 --> 00:56:10.510
And if you go back further, going back further

00:56:10.510 --> 00:56:13.449
is just, there's no film. So we can't think about

00:56:13.449 --> 00:56:17.630
those sorts of things. You see this. Most of

00:56:17.630 --> 00:56:19.449
the countries that went to war with each other

00:56:19.449 --> 00:56:25.309
in World War I had parliaments. They had plebiscites.

00:56:25.309 --> 00:56:27.150
They had voting. They had all these institutions.

00:56:27.510 --> 00:56:30.369
So, so much for not going to war with democracies.

00:56:30.369 --> 00:56:31.730
I was at meetings where that was brought up.

00:56:32.339 --> 00:56:34.139
And maybe this is finally getting us back to

00:56:34.139 --> 00:56:36.000
where we were talking about China and such. But

00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.019
I mean, the argument was that when you brought

00:56:39.019 --> 00:56:41.960
this up with people, the argument was that they

00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:43.780
revised it. And they said, well, since 1945,

00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:46.500
democracies have not gone to war. Well, that's

00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:49.860
a smidgen of history. Okay. Right. And maybe

00:56:49.860 --> 00:56:52.239
that's a change forever. But maybe things will

00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.260
go back to the way they were before. Also, we

00:56:54.260 --> 00:56:58.099
just don't really know. Right. That was where

00:56:58.099 --> 00:57:01.920
the thinking of 20 -ish years ago. was and i

00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:03.340
was in the meetings where those those kind of

00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:04.579
things were said those kind of yeah i'm glad

00:57:04.579 --> 00:57:05.920
you're bringing that up those kind of things

00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:08.500
happen i guess maybe this can bring us back to

00:57:08.500 --> 00:57:10.039
china but when you think about our efforts in

00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:12.159
afghanistan in particular and you had talked

00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:14.920
about how uh how ridiculous it was to think you

00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:19.000
could modernize and christianize and etc um china

00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.320
with such a low literacy rate and everything

00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:25.829
well that's afghanistan isn't it it is You know,

00:57:25.889 --> 00:57:27.969
I mean, we're kind of making that mistake again.

00:57:28.010 --> 00:57:29.590
We're getting ahead of ourselves. I want to get

00:57:29.590 --> 00:57:31.409
back to China and talk about, you know, what

00:57:31.409 --> 00:57:34.010
happened in the 50s. But you see the problem

00:57:34.010 --> 00:57:36.110
cropping up again and again and again. And I

00:57:36.110 --> 00:57:38.130
mean, it's like, again, when you get to just

00:57:38.130 --> 00:57:41.010
this is a parallel with China. This is a total

00:57:41.010 --> 00:57:43.769
parallel with China. Yeah. There is this idea

00:57:43.769 --> 00:57:46.780
that Afghanistan is this holistic thing. And

00:57:46.780 --> 00:57:49.239
there's this idea that China is this holistic

00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:51.940
thing. Because it's like it's too hard to try

00:57:51.940 --> 00:57:54.559
to understand the specifics. And this is what

00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:57.980
I consider to be a major failing when we're framing

00:57:57.980 --> 00:58:00.940
policies like this, where we'll do things like

00:58:00.940 --> 00:58:02.820
we'll put the thumb on the scale when we're talking

00:58:02.820 --> 00:58:06.739
about 1945 and no wars against democracies, or

00:58:06.739 --> 00:58:09.500
we're talking about... A country and that country

00:58:09.500 --> 00:58:13.800
is, as far as we're concerned, this country is

00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:17.619
its own holistic thing. And there are not divisions,

00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:20.960
there are not seams within society that make

00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:24.559
bringing them into the world of democracy and

00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:28.039
the good of the nation state incredibly difficult,

00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:30.780
if not impossible. We see in World War II, we

00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:33.099
conquered Germany, we conquered Japan, and they

00:58:33.099 --> 00:58:37.159
both became allies and democracies. So let's

00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:41.500
just do that everywhere. Yeah. But that is almost

00:58:41.500 --> 00:58:44.500
like, you know, that's an example. Those examples,

00:58:44.780 --> 00:58:48.059
you know, and we also rebuilt Europe, too. You

00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:50.239
know, we rebuilt Europe. There were all sorts

00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:53.960
of miracle countries like Italy. The activities

00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:57.079
in Iraq, after we went into Iraq, were very much

00:58:57.079 --> 00:58:59.480
based on what we did in Europe and particularly

00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:03.119
Germany. Yeah. They were modeled directly on

00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:06.360
that. Worked out rather differently. But anyway,

00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:10.039
but but you can see it. This is something that

00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:12.880
only works in exceptional cases as opposed to

00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:17.059
the norm. And China, I would argue, is the first

00:59:17.059 --> 00:59:20.519
of those cases where we're making assumptions

00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:25.139
without the benefit of facts. You know, in terms

00:59:25.139 --> 00:59:27.800
of the nationalists versus the communists. Just

00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:32.230
in terms of like just how settled. China actually

00:59:32.230 --> 00:59:36.570
is to be able to adapt to reforms. I mean, to

00:59:36.570 --> 00:59:39.130
get to the point, if anybody walks away from

00:59:39.130 --> 00:59:42.130
this is Chiang Kai -shek never consolidated control

00:59:42.130 --> 00:59:46.369
over all of China. We acted like he did. And

00:59:46.369 --> 00:59:49.690
we acted like, you know, all these people that

00:59:49.690 --> 00:59:52.309
live there, they were just thirsting for Coca

00:59:52.309 --> 00:59:55.570
-Cola and movies and popcorn and the American

00:59:55.570 --> 00:59:57.610
way of life here. And perhaps they would like

00:59:57.610 --> 00:59:59.809
Coca -Cola and popcorn and movies, but that didn't

00:59:59.809 --> 01:00:01.449
mean that they all wanted to necessarily have

01:00:01.449 --> 01:00:03.150
an American form of government or that it would,

01:00:03.210 --> 01:00:04.429
you know, that that kind of thing would take

01:00:04.429 --> 01:00:06.469
root there. They probably wanted to get over

01:00:06.469 --> 01:00:08.789
not having any famine first. They probably wanted

01:00:08.789 --> 01:00:11.170
to get over, yeah, they probably liked that rice

01:00:11.170 --> 01:00:13.650
and things and fewer floods and less dying. Yeah.

01:00:13.829 --> 01:00:15.710
So that you could, you know, afford a Coke and

01:00:15.710 --> 01:00:17.409
go to the movies. You need to have stability

01:00:17.409 --> 01:00:21.570
before you can move on. Yeah. But if we can think

01:00:21.570 --> 01:00:25.639
about... Getting back to this idea of monolithic

01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:31.420
communism and the fact that we do not have a

01:00:31.420 --> 01:00:34.500
good understanding of what monolithic communism

01:00:34.500 --> 01:00:37.940
is and that it is actually a number of countries.

01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:41.400
It's not a movement. Well, I would rephrase that.

01:00:41.500 --> 01:00:43.320
I mean, we did not understand. We did not have

01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.679
a good understanding of world communism. Yes.

01:00:45.820 --> 01:00:47.699
We did not understand that it was not monolithic

01:00:47.699 --> 01:00:50.019
communism. Yes. And that, in fact, the term world

01:00:50.019 --> 01:00:51.639
communism probably doesn't have a whole lot of

01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.230
meaning. There are countries out there that are

01:00:54.230 --> 01:00:56.110
communists, but they may be at odds with each

01:00:56.110 --> 01:00:57.610
other. They may have nothing in common. They

01:00:57.610 --> 01:01:00.150
may not really want to be even allied with one

01:01:00.150 --> 01:01:03.550
another. None of those things were taken into

01:01:03.550 --> 01:01:05.429
consideration. It's much simpler to say it's

01:01:05.429 --> 01:01:07.829
all monolithic. Simple answers to complex problems,

01:01:07.909 --> 01:01:09.110
right? It's all monolithic. We have to fight

01:01:09.110 --> 01:01:11.690
all of it. Well, this is the domino theory. The

01:01:11.690 --> 01:01:14.409
domino theory fueled that. Yes. Domino theory,

01:01:14.590 --> 01:01:16.989
which we talked about last time, which was this

01:01:16.989 --> 01:01:20.030
notion. which I think is kind of irrational that,

01:01:20.030 --> 01:01:23.030
you know, that a lot of Chiang supporters were

01:01:23.030 --> 01:01:28.030
in favor of was, OK, if China falls, all of Asia

01:01:28.030 --> 01:01:32.090
falls, India falls, you know, Southeast Asia

01:01:32.090 --> 01:01:34.190
falls. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it

01:01:34.190 --> 01:01:35.989
was irrational. I would say that it was wrong

01:01:35.989 --> 01:01:40.829
and it misunderstood the situation. The reason

01:01:40.829 --> 01:01:42.650
I say I wouldn't say it's irrational is because

01:01:42.650 --> 01:01:44.550
you did have all of Eastern Europe come under

01:01:44.550 --> 01:01:47.070
the Soviet thumb. and become a bunch of communist

01:01:47.070 --> 01:01:49.230
satellite countries. Yes. It is not unreasonable

01:01:49.230 --> 01:01:51.750
to say if we don't oppose communism in Asia,

01:01:51.809 --> 01:01:53.809
we'll have the same thing happen there. Well...

01:01:53.809 --> 01:01:56.630
Now, but would it have the effects we were thinking

01:01:56.630 --> 01:02:00.130
it would have? And the answer is no. No. It would

01:02:00.130 --> 01:02:02.210
not come out the same way. Right. Well, because

01:02:02.210 --> 01:02:05.929
the distinctions that people are... I would argue,

01:02:05.989 --> 01:02:07.670
though, just based on the rhetoric that we're

01:02:07.670 --> 01:02:11.530
seeing at the time, that they're like saying,

01:02:11.690 --> 01:02:16.630
if this, then that. And I don't see enough evidence

01:02:16.630 --> 01:02:20.409
to support that. I get what you're saying, but

01:02:20.409 --> 01:02:22.050
what I'm saying, though, is that it's not, I

01:02:22.050 --> 01:02:24.789
wouldn't tar it as being irrational at the time.

01:02:25.690 --> 01:02:27.710
We now look back on it and we say it was wrong

01:02:27.710 --> 01:02:29.750
and it doesn't make any sense. But at the time,

01:02:29.750 --> 01:02:31.690
it wouldn't seem irrational at all. If you factor

01:02:31.690 --> 01:02:34.769
the hysteria in there, sure. Well, the hysteria,

01:02:34.789 --> 01:02:36.769
but also given the fact that Eastern Europe fell.

01:02:37.989 --> 01:02:40.360
Yeah. And came under communist control. That

01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:41.780
mattered a lot to people. I don't want to get

01:02:41.780 --> 01:02:44.199
into that, but I would say that each one of those

01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:47.139
countries in Eastern Europe fell through different

01:02:47.139 --> 01:02:48.679
means. They didn't just fall because somebody

01:02:48.679 --> 01:02:51.219
flipped the communist switch. They fell because

01:02:51.219 --> 01:02:53.420
the Soviet army came through. Well, yes. That's

01:02:53.420 --> 01:02:54.880
what happened. They made sure that a communist

01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:56.619
government got put in charge. And there's subversion.

01:02:56.619 --> 01:02:58.179
I'm not saying it's the same. But let's not get

01:02:58.179 --> 01:02:59.840
into that. I'm not saying it's the same. I'm

01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:01.539
just saying that it's not completely irrational

01:03:01.539 --> 01:03:04.119
to think that way, given the events of the time.

01:03:14.190 --> 01:03:18.070
To get back to both China and the Soviet Union,

01:03:18.190 --> 01:03:21.809
as the 50s are wearing on, there are real differences

01:03:21.809 --> 01:03:25.550
between the two countries. The problem that the

01:03:25.550 --> 01:03:27.849
United States had was a tendency to avoid being

01:03:27.849 --> 01:03:30.329
reasonable or developing a deep understanding

01:03:30.329 --> 01:03:33.710
of these two adversaries of the United States.

01:03:34.409 --> 01:03:41.010
And to kind of try to look for nuance domestically,

01:03:41.050 --> 01:03:45.170
domestically, politically, could be a disaster

01:03:45.170 --> 01:03:48.130
because no one wanted to be seen as soft on communism.

01:03:48.489 --> 01:03:51.030
Of either political party. Of either political

01:03:51.030 --> 01:03:52.909
party. And I mean, you know, it got to the point

01:03:52.909 --> 01:03:57.849
where you end up with, you know, the Republicans

01:03:57.849 --> 01:04:01.860
trying to take an extremely hard line. And then

01:04:01.860 --> 01:04:04.320
the Democrats coming up with just ridiculous

01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:07.679
notions. You know, Hubert Humphrey, Hubert Humphrey,

01:04:07.739 --> 01:04:10.179
for example, the great liberal, he was actually

01:04:10.179 --> 01:04:13.179
advocating concentration camps, concentration

01:04:13.179 --> 01:04:17.199
camps for communists. In the United States. In

01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:21.780
the United States. So because he did not wish

01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:23.960
to be, he was not pro -communist, but he didn't

01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:26.880
want to be seen as soft on communism. So you're

01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:30.400
getting this almost bidding war going on. Who

01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:35.800
could be the biggest hard -ass here? And this

01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:40.019
is the mentality that is affecting our way of

01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:43.599
understanding, for want of a better term, the

01:04:43.599 --> 01:04:48.659
communist world. But also, I would argue that

01:04:48.659 --> 01:04:50.719
we have certain opportunities which we're not

01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:53.500
necessarily availing ourselves of. Yes, we have

01:04:53.500 --> 01:04:57.789
Tito. Tito very publicly, there's no question

01:04:57.789 --> 01:05:01.769
about that Stalin hated Tito and Tito hated Stalin

01:05:01.769 --> 01:05:05.389
and Tito kicked everybody out of Yugoslavia.

01:05:05.949 --> 01:05:10.889
What's going on between China and Russia during

01:05:10.889 --> 01:05:14.269
this period is much more subtle because it's

01:05:14.269 --> 01:05:18.829
not really in their interest to advertise just

01:05:18.829 --> 01:05:21.710
how far apart they are on certain issues. Tito,

01:05:21.949 --> 01:05:24.289
for those who don't know, Marshal Tito, he became

01:05:24.289 --> 01:05:27.610
known as, he led the Yugoslav partisans, his

01:05:27.610 --> 01:05:30.929
very famous part of World War II, against the

01:05:30.929 --> 01:05:34.090
German and Italian occupiers during World War

01:05:34.090 --> 01:05:38.409
II in Yugoslavia. And after the war, the kingdom

01:05:38.409 --> 01:05:40.389
of Yugoslavia was not going to come back. He

01:05:40.389 --> 01:05:42.389
took over as a communist government, but he very

01:05:42.389 --> 01:05:46.409
quickly, was it 1947 that he split? He very quickly

01:05:46.409 --> 01:05:50.070
split from the Soviet bloc and became his own.

01:05:51.449 --> 01:05:54.329
his own entity within the communist world, very

01:05:54.329 --> 01:05:56.389
different relations with the communist world

01:05:56.389 --> 01:06:00.610
than other countries had. Terrain favored him,

01:06:00.670 --> 01:06:02.809
so he could get away with that. Yugoslavia was

01:06:02.809 --> 01:06:04.269
a very rugged, hard place to invade, and the

01:06:04.269 --> 01:06:06.349
Soviets just kind of left him alone and let him

01:06:06.349 --> 01:06:09.269
go his own way. You know, it's our old problem,

01:06:09.329 --> 01:06:12.329
Mr. Logistics here. You know, moving an army...

01:06:12.670 --> 01:06:15.469
all the way down to Yugoslavia. Best to let it

01:06:15.469 --> 01:06:16.789
go. Just let it go. It's not that important.

01:06:17.250 --> 01:06:19.909
And we talked about how President Truman had

01:06:19.909 --> 01:06:22.469
kind of hoped that there'd be a Sino -Soviet

01:06:22.469 --> 01:06:24.690
split along the same lines, that China would

01:06:24.690 --> 01:06:26.469
go the way of, say, Tito and become a separate

01:06:26.469 --> 01:06:30.750
pole of communism, which actually wound up happening

01:06:30.750 --> 01:06:33.889
over time, but wasn't obvious in 1950. Well,

01:06:33.989 --> 01:06:38.530
what we're seeing happen throughout the 50s is

01:06:39.150 --> 01:06:42.429
Now taking a very dim view of Stalin's successors,

01:06:42.550 --> 01:06:46.010
Stalin, I think, more or less tricked the Chinese

01:06:46.010 --> 01:06:49.309
into intervening in the Korean War in the 1950s.

01:06:49.510 --> 01:06:54.849
You know, hi, I've unleashed Kim. What are you

01:06:54.849 --> 01:06:58.510
going to do to prove yourself as a real live

01:06:58.510 --> 01:07:01.269
bona fide partner here that I'm providing $300

01:07:01.269 --> 01:07:04.130
million in aid to? And let's pull that string

01:07:04.130 --> 01:07:05.650
a little bit further, too. You know, you're talking

01:07:05.650 --> 01:07:07.809
about misunderstanding China, right, and misunderstanding

01:07:07.809 --> 01:07:11.110
monolithic communism. Stalin was not really a

01:07:11.110 --> 01:07:13.889
supporter of Mao in the way people might think.

01:07:14.190 --> 01:07:15.949
He actually preferred Chiang Kai -shek, to be

01:07:15.949 --> 01:07:20.349
honest. And he actually had some idea maybe that

01:07:20.349 --> 01:07:23.480
he didn't really want a strong China. No. Just

01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.380
like the British. Yeah, because a strong China

01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:29.019
would be a threat to the Soviet empire, right?

01:07:29.139 --> 01:07:33.360
And a strong communist China undermines leadership

01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:36.260
in the world. In the communist world. So he would

01:07:36.260 --> 01:07:38.960
have been happy maybe with having China split

01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:43.780
into occupation zones or something and the Soviets

01:07:43.780 --> 01:07:45.699
would occupy part of it or something like that.

01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:48.480
He didn't really want to have a strong or unified

01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:54.280
China. No. And I mean, this is actually, if we

01:07:54.280 --> 01:08:00.159
want to look at De Gaulle's statement about Russia

01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:02.360
is the reality here, this is kind of Russia's

01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:05.460
policy towards China as well, to kind of try

01:08:05.460 --> 01:08:07.980
and grab what you can. But we didn't know any

01:08:07.980 --> 01:08:10.079
of this about the Soviet Union or about China.

01:08:10.380 --> 01:08:14.400
We just assumed a monolithic. Or we didn't want

01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:16.039
to hear about it. We're going to get into that.

01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:18.260
We're going to get into some of that. Let's get

01:08:18.260 --> 01:08:23.409
into that. Let me just talk about ground truth

01:08:23.409 --> 01:08:29.449
here. Ground truth is that as the 50s bear on,

01:08:29.630 --> 01:08:32.729
the Soviet Union, and in particular Khrushchev,

01:08:32.850 --> 01:08:37.090
who Mao just could not freaking stand at all,

01:08:37.250 --> 01:08:41.470
was doing all sorts of things that Mao did not

01:08:41.470 --> 01:08:43.689
like. First of all, there's this de -Stalinization.

01:08:44.350 --> 01:08:46.949
thing that's that khrushchev is advocating and

01:08:46.949 --> 01:08:52.729
khrushchev came in in 50 really 50 53 it's it's

01:08:52.729 --> 01:08:55.909
they don't have an orderly system for succession

01:08:55.909 --> 01:08:59.489
well stalin died in 53 yes then there was uh

01:08:59.489 --> 01:09:03.750
malenkov for like a couple of years no stalin

01:09:03.750 --> 01:09:06.279
i mean So Khrushchev had the general secretary

01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:09.279
position. Okay. Malenkov was head of state. Head

01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:11.340
of state. Okay. And people didn't quite understand

01:09:11.340 --> 01:09:13.779
how things worked over there. Yeah. That it's

01:09:13.779 --> 01:09:15.840
the general secretary. Who pulls the strings.

01:09:15.899 --> 01:09:17.439
Who pulls the strings. Yeah. So really it was

01:09:17.439 --> 01:09:19.380
Khrushchev. Yeah. And then he became really the

01:09:19.380 --> 01:09:21.760
head of state. He had to consolidate power and

01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:23.460
he had to get rid of some of his old prevalent

01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:26.079
colleagues. In the mid -50s. In the mid -50s.

01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:28.380
Yeah. Okay. Good. And he's in the process of

01:09:28.380 --> 01:09:29.779
doing this. And one of the things, you know,

01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:32.300
usually when you take power, there's one of two

01:09:32.300 --> 01:09:33.920
things you can do as far as your predecessor.

01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:38.460
One is to idealize him, and the other is to demonize

01:09:38.460 --> 01:09:40.979
him. And Stalin, you know, was perfect for being

01:09:40.979 --> 01:09:43.340
demonized given all the things he had done in

01:09:43.340 --> 01:09:46.460
terms of, yes, he had made the Soviet Union to

01:09:46.460 --> 01:09:49.319
world power, but he'd killed millions of people

01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:53.380
in the process. And Khrushchev was kind of looking

01:09:53.380 --> 01:10:00.579
more towards consumer goods and services. accommodation

01:10:00.579 --> 01:10:03.239
with the West so that you didn't have to spend

01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:06.939
so much on the military. This is not what Mao

01:10:06.939 --> 01:10:10.239
wants. Mao wants confrontation with the West.

01:10:11.119 --> 01:10:13.619
He wants to make sure that he's getting what

01:10:13.619 --> 01:10:16.500
he needs in order to defend against the West.

01:10:16.659 --> 01:10:20.100
And two of the things militarily that he wants

01:10:20.100 --> 01:10:25.670
from the Soviet Union are a navy, which... The

01:10:25.670 --> 01:10:28.470
Russians don't really want someone with a big

01:10:28.470 --> 01:10:32.470
navy out in the Pacific fleet. It is their Achilles

01:10:32.470 --> 01:10:35.949
heel. They have very limited production capabilities,

01:10:36.229 --> 01:10:39.630
repair capabilities, etc. If they're going to

01:10:39.630 --> 01:10:41.970
dominate Asia, they're going to need to have

01:10:41.970 --> 01:10:46.250
their own forces need to dominate. And giving

01:10:46.250 --> 01:10:49.529
China the means to build a navy at the time looked

01:10:49.529 --> 01:10:53.609
really bad to them. And then second, There was

01:10:53.609 --> 01:10:57.050
this matter of a nuclear device, which as Khrushchev

01:10:57.050 --> 01:11:01.430
grew to meet Mao, he thought, no way in hell

01:11:01.430 --> 01:11:04.869
am I giving this guy the bomb, where he might

01:11:04.869 --> 01:11:07.670
use it and then suck me into some sort of war

01:11:07.670 --> 01:11:11.350
with the United States, which becomes a big -time

01:11:11.350 --> 01:11:16.090
nuclear war as far as I'm concerned. So Khrushchev

01:11:16.090 --> 01:11:18.529
is kind of reneging on some of the promises that

01:11:18.529 --> 01:11:20.569
are made, and this is not winning him any friends

01:11:20.569 --> 01:11:27.159
with Mao. with Mao. And so, for example, in 1958,

01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:30.380
when Khrushchev visited Mao on a state visit,

01:11:30.699 --> 01:11:35.359
he was subjected to hundreds of petty slights,

01:11:35.359 --> 01:11:38.300
including being housed in a mosquito -ridden

01:11:38.300 --> 01:11:41.520
guest house and insulted throughout meetings

01:11:41.520 --> 01:11:44.579
behind the scenes. In front of everybody else,

01:11:44.600 --> 01:11:48.039
they're all smiles, but Mao's like screaming

01:11:48.039 --> 01:11:50.460
and yelling at him when the doors are closed

01:11:50.460 --> 01:11:55.399
there. There are numerous examples of what we

01:11:55.399 --> 01:11:59.720
can see developing in these areas, and I would

01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:02.439
argue that we're starting to see certain slight

01:12:02.439 --> 01:12:06.920
indications. And, you know, usually you can get

01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:09.420
this by looking at the press and seeing, you

01:12:09.420 --> 01:12:13.239
know, just to reveal some of the art of criminology,

01:12:13.420 --> 01:12:16.960
who gets seated next to whom, what order you

01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:22.260
mentioned in the caption, and so forth. And people

01:12:22.260 --> 01:12:27.140
who in the late 50s are looking at Chinese and

01:12:27.140 --> 01:12:29.979
Russian press, they're seeing some interesting,

01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:35.340
subtle statements that they think bear watching

01:12:35.340 --> 01:12:40.619
and that are indication of a growing split between

01:12:40.619 --> 01:12:45.579
China and Russia. Now, Khrushchev is seeking

01:12:45.579 --> 01:12:50.779
peaceful coexistence. And Mao wants more confrontation,

01:12:50.939 --> 01:12:57.560
including engaging in 1960, in the late 50s and

01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:01.960
early 1960, Kimoy and Matsu, which are islands

01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:04.899
off the coast of Taiwan, trying to provoke something

01:13:04.899 --> 01:13:08.859
there. So this is kind of screwing with people,

01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:12.600
because if you look at press, and I did in college

01:13:12.600 --> 01:13:17.539
as a paper, it's like... The coverage of Khrushchev

01:13:17.539 --> 01:13:20.000
went back and forth. He's either Mr. K or he's

01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:23.659
like this thug. He's like this guy who's sitting

01:13:23.659 --> 01:13:27.380
out there extolling the advantages of American

01:13:27.380 --> 01:13:30.720
corn. Or he's some guy, some crude guy with a

01:13:30.720 --> 01:13:33.140
shoe. Who wanted to go to Disneyland, as I recall.

01:13:33.239 --> 01:13:35.180
He also wanted to go to Disneyland, too. He wanted

01:13:35.180 --> 01:13:37.380
to go to Disneyland. And they wouldn't let him

01:13:37.380 --> 01:13:40.000
because security issues. And Khrushchev was kind

01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:42.140
of angry about this. And he's like, what sort

01:13:42.140 --> 01:13:45.600
of secrets? are going on in Disneyland. And he

01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:47.279
banged his shoe on the table. When was that?

01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:49.800
At the UN. That was at the UN. And this was like

01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:54.699
1960, 61. Well, you know, and the thing is funny

01:13:54.699 --> 01:13:57.100
because Mao was saying more or less the same

01:13:57.100 --> 01:14:00.380
thing. You know, he wasn't using the US as his

01:14:00.380 --> 01:14:03.300
benchmark. He was using Britain. Let's see, the

01:14:03.300 --> 01:14:05.199
soundbite was, we will bury you. That's what

01:14:05.199 --> 01:14:06.960
Americans took away from it, not all this more,

01:14:07.020 --> 01:14:08.960
you know, detailed stuff about, oh, I'm only

01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:10.520
talking about industry. No, no, it sounds more

01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:13.180
like I'm gonna... attack you or something, you

01:14:13.180 --> 01:14:16.180
know, anyway. So, but what we're seeing here

01:14:16.180 --> 01:14:21.420
is we're seeing between 1958 and 61, a whole

01:14:21.420 --> 01:14:25.479
series of ideological disputes and an aid reflecting

01:14:25.479 --> 01:14:29.920
ongoing disenchantment between China and the

01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:32.659
Soviet Union. This we did not understand because

01:14:32.659 --> 01:14:35.220
we'd gotten rid of our most experienced experts

01:14:35.220 --> 01:14:39.460
on China and the Russian contingent as well.

01:14:39.979 --> 01:14:43.520
was somewhat cowed given the circumstances that

01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:46.300
was prevailing within the intelligence community

01:14:46.300 --> 01:14:49.770
at the time. I have heard it said that the growing

01:14:49.770 --> 01:14:53.329
split was detectable as early as 1956. Yes, it

01:14:53.329 --> 01:14:54.810
was. Which would make sense because that's when

01:14:54.810 --> 01:14:56.550
Khrushchev had really consolidated his power

01:14:56.550 --> 01:14:59.090
and was really... Really going full at it with

01:14:59.090 --> 01:15:03.350
destabilization and looking for peaceful coexistence

01:15:03.350 --> 01:15:06.109
with... And I mean, until he consolidated, he's

01:15:06.109 --> 01:15:07.750
not going to be able to advocate something as

01:15:07.750 --> 01:15:09.590
radical as peaceful coexistence. That's something

01:15:09.590 --> 01:15:12.090
to keep in mind about the Soviet Union at the

01:15:12.090 --> 01:15:13.529
time. And so the split is thought to have really

01:15:13.529 --> 01:15:18.659
happened by, what, 1960? Well, I'm going to give

01:15:18.659 --> 01:15:24.899
you a point, a data point here. The first writing

01:15:24.899 --> 01:15:28.699
in the United States, and of course, it's academic

01:15:28.699 --> 01:15:31.760
writing, that talks about a split between the

01:15:31.760 --> 01:15:35.819
Soviet Union and China is 1962. So let's just

01:15:35.819 --> 01:15:41.020
figure 60 -62 is when people in academia felt

01:15:41.020 --> 01:15:43.890
that there was sufficient evidence. for this.

01:15:43.989 --> 01:15:46.430
But the evidence would date to before 1952. Yes,

01:15:46.430 --> 01:15:48.210
it would have to. Maybe that's where the 1956

01:15:48.210 --> 01:15:50.529
through 60 kind of discussion comes from. Well,

01:15:50.529 --> 01:15:52.710
I mean, there's little, if you look at the material,

01:15:52.930 --> 01:15:56.270
there's little indications here and there that

01:15:56.270 --> 01:15:58.390
come up. And it's like, unless you're looking

01:15:58.390 --> 01:16:01.619
at this stuff every day. deep, penetrating understanding

01:16:01.619 --> 01:16:04.079
of the adversary, you're not going to necessarily

01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:06.600
know this. It's not something you can just like

01:16:06.600 --> 01:16:08.640
give somebody some tradecraft and say, here,

01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:11.180
go look at this and not understand the context.

01:16:11.260 --> 01:16:13.260
You have to understand the context. I mean, and

01:16:13.260 --> 01:16:15.800
so if you're going to do intelligence on another

01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:18.840
country, the stupidest thing you can do is accuse

01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:20.739
people who know a lot about the country of being

01:16:20.739 --> 01:16:23.220
favorable toward that country just because they

01:16:23.220 --> 01:16:26.130
know a lot about it. Yes. The whole idea. of

01:16:26.130 --> 01:16:27.970
intelligence work is to know a lot about your

01:16:27.970 --> 01:16:29.649
adversary. And if you're doing your job right,

01:16:29.770 --> 01:16:31.350
you should be able to go back to your own people

01:16:31.350 --> 01:16:34.550
and explain your adversary in his own terms to

01:16:34.550 --> 01:16:36.470
them what he wants to do. And that's not advocacy.

01:16:36.670 --> 01:16:39.270
And why he thinks it'll work and why maybe you

01:16:39.270 --> 01:16:40.869
should think about what he wants to do because

01:16:40.869 --> 01:16:43.470
maybe he's right. You better prepare for that.

01:16:43.590 --> 01:16:45.449
That doesn't mean you're on his side. You're

01:16:45.449 --> 01:16:47.729
not advocating. You're just telling people what

01:16:47.729 --> 01:16:50.750
he says and what he thinks, your adversary. We're

01:16:50.750 --> 01:16:51.850
getting back to what you were saying before,

01:16:51.909 --> 01:16:55.010
the stupidity of firing everybody who knew anything

01:16:55.010 --> 01:16:58.100
about... china russia etc because they were saying

01:16:58.100 --> 01:17:00.460
things you didn't want to hear yes because they

01:17:00.460 --> 01:17:02.119
were saying things that made the other side sound

01:17:02.119 --> 01:17:05.619
well i mean i guess if you're small -minded about

01:17:05.619 --> 01:17:07.000
it so well you sound like you're favoring them

01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:09.779
no i'm telling you how they think and you need

01:17:09.779 --> 01:17:12.180
to know this yeah you need to understand this

01:17:12.180 --> 01:17:15.420
this is we're not here to be your cheerleader

01:17:15.420 --> 01:17:19.239
yeah we're here to explain what you know that

01:17:19.239 --> 01:17:21.560
would be their attitude We are here to explain

01:17:21.560 --> 01:17:23.340
something. It makes us stronger if we understand

01:17:23.340 --> 01:17:24.699
the other side, not weaker if we understand it.

01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:28.659
Because that way we can outfox them instead of

01:17:28.659 --> 01:17:32.840
being their dupe. And dupe was kind of, I mean,

01:17:32.859 --> 01:17:34.840
I'm just going to say dupe was kind of what we

01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:37.619
were because they didn't necessarily want this

01:17:37.619 --> 01:17:40.880
to come out that they had had a split and neither

01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:57.300
did we. What we're starting to see in this period,

01:17:57.479 --> 01:18:01.279
this late 50s, early 60s period, is there's little

01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:03.319
data points that are starting to appear in the

01:18:03.319 --> 01:18:07.020
Russian and Chinese press. However, let's bring

01:18:07.020 --> 01:18:10.880
in our friends over at CIA and talk about some

01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:12.859
of the national intelligence estimates that were

01:18:12.859 --> 01:18:15.960
done there. This is actually taken from a study

01:18:15.960 --> 01:18:21.270
which we'll have a link to in the blog. It's

01:18:21.270 --> 01:18:22.930
a very informative study because it actually

01:18:22.930 --> 01:18:25.829
looks at the actual material. All of this stuff

01:18:25.829 --> 01:18:29.310
is declassified, by the way. But there's also

01:18:29.310 --> 01:18:31.489
the marginalia for these national intelligence

01:18:31.489 --> 01:18:34.149
estimates included, so you know what policymakers

01:18:34.149 --> 01:18:38.170
are thinking. What they're writing in the margins,

01:18:38.430 --> 01:18:42.760
their comments. I'm going to cite both of those.

01:18:43.060 --> 01:18:47.739
So in 1956, the intelligence community concluded

01:18:47.739 --> 01:18:51.260
that although differences continued, so they

01:18:51.260 --> 01:18:54.979
were aware of these differences, they said common

01:18:54.979 --> 01:18:58.159
objectives and China's dependence on Russia for

01:18:58.159 --> 01:19:00.739
technological assistance would prevent any significant

01:19:00.739 --> 01:19:05.060
deterioration of relations through 1960. Now,

01:19:05.079 --> 01:19:08.159
I'm going to call bullshit on this for two reasons.

01:19:08.560 --> 01:19:10.880
One, Russia can do whatever the hell it wants.

01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:15.180
There is no interest that Russia couldn't, like,

01:19:15.180 --> 01:19:19.199
stab China in the back here. And, you know, just

01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:22.359
because China's dependent upon you, just as Chiang

01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:25.600
Kai -shek experienced, that doesn't mean that

01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:30.640
we are dependent upon him necessarily. So I kind

01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:34.590
of think that's an odd... conclusion to come

01:19:34.590 --> 01:19:38.489
to. There were no differences noted in the follow

01:19:38.489 --> 01:19:40.770
-up national intelligence estimate that Moscow

01:19:40.770 --> 01:19:44.609
and Russia would have any alternative than to

01:19:44.609 --> 01:19:49.050
sustain their close ties with each other. Moscow

01:19:49.050 --> 01:19:52.890
and China. Moscow and Russia. I'm sorry, Moscow

01:19:52.890 --> 01:19:54.770
and Beijing. And Beijing, yeah. Would have no

01:19:54.770 --> 01:19:58.250
alternative other than to sustain their relationships.

01:19:58.569 --> 01:20:01.350
And then there's a third NIE that said that although

01:20:01.350 --> 01:20:05.920
further differences were coming up. I mean, it's

01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:08.479
almost like watching a frog being boiled in water

01:20:08.479 --> 01:20:11.220
here because, yeah, there's more, there's more,

01:20:11.340 --> 01:20:16.180
but nothing's going to change. And they're basically

01:20:16.180 --> 01:20:18.899
concluding that Russia and China would remain

01:20:18.899 --> 01:20:23.039
strongly allied through 1965. And NIE, for those

01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:25.140
who are not tracking, that's a national intelligence

01:20:25.140 --> 01:20:28.520
estimate. So it's a major document that describes

01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:30.760
what the intelligence community assesses to be

01:20:30.760 --> 01:20:33.439
the case. It can be on different topics. But

01:20:33.439 --> 01:20:37.079
it generally is intended for a high -level audience.

01:20:37.439 --> 01:20:41.779
The president. The president and basically assorted

01:20:41.779 --> 01:20:44.619
colleagues and so forth. Very limited distribution

01:20:44.619 --> 01:20:47.699
there. But, I mean, as this is going on outside

01:20:47.699 --> 01:20:51.699
the CIA, where opinions over the split included

01:20:51.699 --> 01:20:56.319
people who insisted. that Russia was promoting,

01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:59.279
there were people who were insisting that the

01:20:59.279 --> 01:21:02.899
Russians were promoting this sort of idea of

01:21:02.899 --> 01:21:06.039
differences between itself and China as deception.

01:21:06.880 --> 01:21:11.979
So senior policymakers tended to disregard intelligence

01:21:11.979 --> 01:21:15.159
assessments of an estrangement between Russia

01:21:15.159 --> 01:21:21.300
and China as being too theoretical, too... infertile

01:21:21.300 --> 01:21:25.579
and too contrary to continuing signs of our cooperation

01:21:25.579 --> 01:21:29.739
between the Soviets and Chinese. Other commentators,

01:21:29.739 --> 01:21:34.000
ranging from Walt Rastow, who is a senior official

01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:36.439
within the Kennedy -Johnson administration, senior

01:21:36.439 --> 01:21:39.039
foreign policy advisor, and Assistant Secretary

01:21:39.039 --> 01:21:42.600
of State Walter Robinson, insisted that as Moscow

01:21:42.600 --> 01:21:45.439
and Beijing remain committed to communism, so

01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:47.880
it's like It's not the nation. They're not thinking

01:21:47.880 --> 01:21:49.399
about the nation state. They're thinking about

01:21:49.399 --> 01:21:52.279
communism. I was going to say, if you think about

01:21:52.279 --> 01:21:54.659
this where you're accepting as a fundamental

01:21:54.659 --> 01:21:57.819
truth that there's monolithic communism, then

01:21:57.819 --> 01:22:02.260
these ideas become logical and reasonable. Yes.

01:22:02.340 --> 01:22:04.720
The fundamental problem is that the premise is

01:22:04.720 --> 01:22:07.239
false. There isn't monolithic communism. Once

01:22:07.239 --> 01:22:08.960
you pull that out from under it, the whole thing

01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:12.039
falls apart. But if you're committed to that

01:22:12.039 --> 01:22:17.449
idea, which they were, It's nonsense to say that

01:22:17.449 --> 01:22:19.529
there's estrangement. Maybe it's a plot on their

01:22:19.529 --> 01:22:21.810
part. All of that. I'm going to come back to

01:22:21.810 --> 01:22:23.789
this because I actually have a personal anecdote

01:22:23.789 --> 01:22:26.409
involving one of these people who were reading

01:22:26.409 --> 01:22:28.970
these national intelligence estimates that I

01:22:28.970 --> 01:22:34.430
got to talk to back in 82. But I'll come back

01:22:34.430 --> 01:22:38.390
to that. So Vice President Nixon asked if there

01:22:38.390 --> 01:22:40.529
was anyone who thought Khrushchev might be seeking

01:22:40.529 --> 01:22:43.770
to build up the appearance of difficulties between

01:22:43.770 --> 01:22:46.760
the two countries. Nixon was vice president from

01:22:46.760 --> 01:22:50.300
53 to 61 under Eisenhower. Yes. And he was also

01:22:50.300 --> 01:22:53.479
a presidential candidate in 1960. In 1960. And

01:22:53.479 --> 01:22:56.720
so he was also part of the whole China lobby,

01:22:56.899 --> 01:23:00.380
just to reiterate that. And he's looking, you

01:23:00.380 --> 01:23:02.760
know, Nixon's like - So those are the pro -Republic

01:23:02.760 --> 01:23:05.380
of China, pro -Chung Kai -shek people. Yes. So

01:23:05.380 --> 01:23:10.460
he is very much thinking, this is just nonsense.

01:23:10.560 --> 01:23:13.239
This is a false front that's created. He was

01:23:13.239 --> 01:23:16.350
a cold warrior. Yes. You know, but you can be

01:23:16.350 --> 01:23:22.170
a cold warrior without necessarily... So this

01:23:22.170 --> 01:23:25.569
one, let me give you this quote, which I think

01:23:25.569 --> 01:23:29.130
speaks volumes. We're going to go all the way

01:23:29.130 --> 01:23:32.529
up to the top here. President Eisenhower's take

01:23:32.529 --> 01:23:35.510
on the possibility of a split was as follows.

01:23:36.250 --> 01:23:39.250
He had talked to President Chiang Kai -shek.

01:23:39.899 --> 01:23:42.260
And he said it was impossible for the Chinese

01:23:42.260 --> 01:23:44.899
communists to split from the Soviet Russians.

01:23:45.279 --> 01:23:49.079
He stated emphatically that the communist bloc

01:23:49.079 --> 01:23:52.899
works as a bloc and pursues a global scheme and

01:23:52.899 --> 01:23:55.539
that no party to the bloc could take an independent

01:23:55.539 --> 01:23:58.220
action. Quote, unquote. This was Chiang Kai -shek.

01:23:58.319 --> 01:24:01.020
This is Chiang Kai -shek speaking to President

01:24:01.020 --> 01:24:06.680
Eisenhower. So might we think that President

01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:11.449
Chiang Kai -shek has. an agenda here that might

01:24:11.449 --> 01:24:16.649
be in play to try and convey this information

01:24:16.649 --> 01:24:20.289
to President Eisenhower. Well, we might. Or we

01:24:20.289 --> 01:24:24.770
might view him as another Winston Churchill,

01:24:24.930 --> 01:24:27.289
which we talked about earlier. Or Moses, or Abraham

01:24:27.289 --> 01:24:31.149
Lincoln. Or perhaps. I mean, he had this status

01:24:31.149 --> 01:24:33.050
in the thinking of the time of being this great

01:24:33.050 --> 01:24:39.220
leader. Yes. But it's like, He, Eisenhower added

01:24:39.220 --> 01:24:41.819
that he himself saw nothing that would cause

01:24:41.819 --> 01:24:44.239
him to disagree with this position, including

01:24:44.239 --> 01:24:47.439
consultations with other leaders. So this is

01:24:47.439 --> 01:24:50.800
how heavy this whole notion of monolithic communism

01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:54.739
is. It's all the way at the top. It's within

01:24:54.739 --> 01:24:58.140
consultations with other leaders. I would argue

01:24:58.140 --> 01:25:00.680
we're not thinking critically, you know, and

01:25:00.680 --> 01:25:04.270
critical thought just. to sort of like think

01:25:04.270 --> 01:25:07.149
about the dynamic here. All right. Thinking critically

01:25:07.149 --> 01:25:10.050
about stuff, thinking, you know, speaking truth

01:25:10.050 --> 01:25:13.949
to power, as we saw with the China hands. That

01:25:13.949 --> 01:25:16.270
gets you fired. That gets you accused of being

01:25:16.270 --> 01:25:19.810
a communist. You are suddenly no longer employable

01:25:19.810 --> 01:25:23.350
in your field. You are reduced to building furniture.

01:25:23.689 --> 01:25:26.470
Yeah, you're blacklisted. Yeah, and that's what

01:25:26.470 --> 01:25:27.970
happened to one of the China hands. They ended

01:25:27.970 --> 01:25:29.590
up having to set up like a little furniture.

01:25:30.470 --> 01:25:33.270
They built mid -century modern furniture out

01:25:33.270 --> 01:25:37.149
in California. But it's like, nice living, but

01:25:37.149 --> 01:25:40.569
it's like this guy probably... is an OK furniture

01:25:40.569 --> 01:25:43.449
maker, but he really understands China. He has

01:25:43.449 --> 01:25:48.210
so much. So the people that came after, they're

01:25:48.210 --> 01:25:52.649
not really going to push strongly against these

01:25:52.649 --> 01:25:55.250
notions that are held by the upper reaches of

01:25:55.250 --> 01:25:57.489
the U .S. government, because there's been some

01:25:57.489 --> 01:26:00.050
heads on pikes to give examples of what happens

01:26:00.050 --> 01:26:02.289
when you do that. Sure. But they say they also

01:26:02.289 --> 01:26:05.909
have a simple explanation for the world, which

01:26:05.909 --> 01:26:09.260
is within itself coherent. End to end complete.

01:26:10.399 --> 01:26:13.840
There is a monolithic communist movement. Everything

01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:16.779
can be explained that way. Then you start to

01:26:16.779 --> 01:26:18.619
apply your critical thinking to, OK, given that

01:26:18.619 --> 01:26:21.819
that's the case, then we can start thinking critically

01:26:21.819 --> 01:26:24.260
about what it all means. That means that Chiang

01:26:24.260 --> 01:26:26.659
Kai -shek is right. That means that, you know,

01:26:26.659 --> 01:26:28.819
anybody saying there's some kind of split. No,

01:26:28.899 --> 01:26:30.760
that's just that's just information that's been

01:26:30.760 --> 01:26:32.560
planted. They just want us to think that so on

01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:54.250
and so forth. Right. It follows. Let's talk about

01:26:54.250 --> 01:26:58.489
the impact of monolithic communism and its impact

01:26:58.489 --> 01:27:01.470
on foreign policy. Supposed monolithic communism.

01:27:01.810 --> 01:27:04.510
All right. Supposed is actually a good way to

01:27:04.510 --> 01:27:08.390
put this. There you go. Because I happened to

01:27:08.390 --> 01:27:10.550
have the opportunity when I was an undergraduate

01:27:10.550 --> 01:27:18.670
at Emory in 1982 to meet and interview Dean Rusk.

01:27:18.670 --> 01:27:21.449
And Dean Rusk was Kennedy and Johnson's Secretary

01:27:21.449 --> 01:27:26.500
of State. So from 61 to 69? Yes. The whole time?

01:27:26.640 --> 01:27:28.859
He was in there the entire time. 1961 to 1969.

01:27:29.020 --> 01:27:32.039
I mean, for someone who, you know, for such a

01:27:32.039 --> 01:27:34.159
high position, I mean, people don't usually stick

01:27:34.159 --> 01:27:37.479
around. Rusk stuck around the whole way through.

01:27:38.100 --> 01:27:41.399
I will say this, you know, I don't want to dance

01:27:41.399 --> 01:27:44.359
on his grave, but he was not really, he was a

01:27:44.359 --> 01:27:46.279
good administrator, but he wasn't necessarily

01:27:46.279 --> 01:27:49.939
someone with a bold new vision. He was more like...

01:27:50.199 --> 01:27:53.020
carrying out policy. But when he was carrying

01:27:53.020 --> 01:27:55.439
out policy, he basically said, you know, this

01:27:55.439 --> 01:27:58.460
whole notion of monolithic communism is what

01:27:58.460 --> 01:28:04.600
we had as a principal element to go into Vietnam.

01:28:05.260 --> 01:28:08.840
Yes. You know, it was like... Here's the next

01:28:08.840 --> 01:28:10.739
to the dominoes that's getting ready to fall.

01:28:10.960 --> 01:28:15.079
Yes. And again, it's because we do not understand

01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:17.880
what's going on that leads us down that path.

01:28:18.199 --> 01:28:20.460
I mean, it was said that if Vietnam falls, then

01:28:20.460 --> 01:28:23.619
Laos and Cambodia will fall. And Thailand? And

01:28:23.619 --> 01:28:27.079
Laos and Cambodia, well, they did fall, but that's

01:28:27.079 --> 01:28:30.020
a separate thing. That's us doing stuff. Yeah.

01:28:30.539 --> 01:28:34.220
Thailand did not fall. Burma did not fall. India

01:28:34.220 --> 01:28:36.390
did not fall. But that was the thinking, is that

01:28:36.390 --> 01:28:38.590
they would all fall. That they would all fall.

01:28:38.649 --> 01:28:40.149
One after the other. And then the next thing

01:28:40.149 --> 01:28:42.390
you know, it's going to be Australia and New

01:28:42.390 --> 01:28:44.850
Zealand. And then finally they're going to be

01:28:44.850 --> 01:28:48.729
here and we're going to be in a world defenseless.

01:28:48.829 --> 01:28:50.649
It'll be Mexico. It'll be California. It'll be

01:28:50.649 --> 01:28:52.590
Texas. Yeah. Yeah, right, right. That's the way

01:28:52.590 --> 01:28:54.270
the thinking went. That was, you know. Yeah.

01:28:55.679 --> 01:28:59.380
And so, as we heard at the beginning, monolithic

01:28:59.380 --> 01:29:02.680
communism is very much the position not just

01:29:02.680 --> 01:29:05.420
of Rusk, it's not a minority position. There

01:29:05.420 --> 01:29:08.140
are other people in the administration like Walt

01:29:08.140 --> 01:29:11.779
Rostow, who is involved in foreign policy making

01:29:11.779 --> 01:29:14.500
as well in Kennedy and Johnson, but it's also

01:29:14.500 --> 01:29:18.819
Kennedy himself. And that's why I wanted to lead

01:29:18.819 --> 01:29:23.189
off in this section. of our story with that particular

01:29:23.189 --> 01:29:25.689
exchange between him and de Gaulle here. Richard

01:29:25.689 --> 01:29:28.529
Nixon, just to move ahead with this, Richard

01:29:28.529 --> 01:29:31.029
Nixon was very much a hawk when we get into Vietnam.

01:29:31.310 --> 01:29:35.010
There were doves, but they weren't really, you

01:29:35.010 --> 01:29:37.670
know, you're arguing with monolithic communism.

01:29:37.789 --> 01:29:41.350
And at that time, monolithic communism is practically

01:29:41.350 --> 01:29:44.659
an official policy. of the U .S. government.

01:29:45.000 --> 01:29:47.220
And when you say Nixon was a hawk while we were

01:29:47.220 --> 01:29:48.920
getting into Vietnam, what time frame are you

01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:51.119
talking about? When he was a congressman? Well,

01:29:51.380 --> 01:29:53.680
we weren't getting involved when he was vice

01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:56.880
president because that's when we start actually

01:29:56.880 --> 01:30:00.760
going in and having some involvement with South

01:30:00.760 --> 01:30:05.779
Vietnam. It happens under Eisenhower. And we

01:30:05.779 --> 01:30:09.550
have... We start supporting various governments

01:30:09.550 --> 01:30:11.229
in there. I don't want to get into all of them

01:30:11.229 --> 01:30:14.090
because it's really a revolving door at one point.

01:30:14.170 --> 01:30:17.029
But always we're supposed to be supporting them

01:30:17.029 --> 01:30:21.229
because monolithic communism, domino effect,

01:30:21.369 --> 01:30:25.649
because we believe in monolithic communism. And

01:30:25.649 --> 01:30:28.729
we're not really looking at the nationalist component

01:30:28.729 --> 01:30:32.050
about this at all. And I've said to you, Mike,

01:30:32.130 --> 01:30:34.569
personally, the nation state is the fundamental

01:30:34.569 --> 01:30:38.180
component. of the world here you know in terms

01:30:38.180 --> 01:30:44.680
of determining outcomes in terms of making um

01:30:44.680 --> 01:30:47.479
of decision making people make decisions based

01:30:47.479 --> 01:30:49.260
on what's good for their nation that's what happened

01:30:49.260 --> 01:30:51.140
over and over again in communist countries yes

01:30:51.140 --> 01:30:56.960
so with nixon nixon you know the title of this

01:30:56.960 --> 01:31:00.479
section is only nixon can go to china uh nixon

01:31:00.479 --> 01:31:04.359
kept trying to convince himself and others that

01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:08.579
reports of the non -existence of monolithic communism

01:31:08.579 --> 01:31:12.020
was only a conspiracy, finally bit the bullet

01:31:12.020 --> 01:31:15.859
as our involvement in Vietnam grew. So give us

01:31:15.859 --> 01:31:17.899
some time frame here, though. So he was advocating

01:31:17.899 --> 01:31:19.859
this in the 50s, that it was monolithic communism.

01:31:19.920 --> 01:31:23.979
Yes. Now he was out of office, right? Yes. From

01:31:23.979 --> 01:31:27.340
61 until he won the presidency. 68. So he took

01:31:27.340 --> 01:31:32.640
office in 69. 69, yeah. differentiate for us

01:31:32.640 --> 01:31:34.300
exactly when these things were happening? Well,

01:31:34.380 --> 01:31:38.819
what happens, I think, for a lot of people, it's

01:31:38.819 --> 01:31:41.859
not so much Vietnam that proves the point. It's

01:31:41.859 --> 01:31:44.000
the fact that China and Russia start actually

01:31:44.000 --> 01:31:50.579
competing for land, islands in the Amur River.

01:31:51.039 --> 01:31:55.739
And all of a sudden, if you look at what people

01:31:55.739 --> 01:32:00.010
are concerned about, they're worried about This

01:32:00.010 --> 01:32:04.130
sort of like rogue China state that is in no

01:32:04.130 --> 01:32:11.369
way beholden to To the Soviet Union which had

01:32:11.369 --> 01:32:14.029
detonated its own atomic bomb which had detonated

01:32:14.029 --> 01:32:18.979
something 64 Now, it didn't have any kind of

01:32:18.979 --> 01:32:20.899
nuclear systems the way the Soviet Union and

01:32:20.899 --> 01:32:22.680
the United States did, but it did have the bomb.

01:32:22.880 --> 01:32:26.000
It did have the bomb. Two things that happened,

01:32:26.100 --> 01:32:29.600
like in 64, Khrushchev gets removed from office

01:32:29.600 --> 01:32:32.899
and Brezhnev comes in, and this is all in October.

01:32:33.600 --> 01:32:37.279
And then China explodes its first nuclear bomb,

01:32:37.479 --> 01:32:40.500
neither of which had any impact on the election

01:32:40.500 --> 01:32:43.619
whatsoever. I'm not sure you're referring, just

01:32:43.619 --> 01:32:45.979
so people know, to the fighting over the islands.

01:32:46.460 --> 01:32:49.279
Yes. Fighting over the islands, you're referring

01:32:49.279 --> 01:32:53.779
to the Usuri River incident. Yes. Was a border

01:32:53.779 --> 01:32:58.000
conflict that happened in 1969. And the Chinese

01:32:58.000 --> 01:33:02.000
and the Soviets fought for, I guess, a couple

01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:05.359
of months, was it? They confronted each other

01:33:05.359 --> 01:33:07.020
for a couple of months and there was actual fighting.

01:33:07.079 --> 01:33:09.680
People died fighting over an island or a couple

01:33:09.680 --> 01:33:11.520
of islands or something in the Usuri River along

01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:14.039
the border. But even before that, the rhetoric

01:33:14.039 --> 01:33:17.680
had reached a fever pitch. between the two countries,

01:33:17.840 --> 01:33:20.579
between the Soviet Union and China. You know,

01:33:20.619 --> 01:33:26.020
they saw each other in increasingly acrimonious

01:33:26.020 --> 01:33:30.579
terms here. March 1969 was when the fighting

01:33:30.579 --> 01:33:32.319
took place. There was some pretty intense combat,

01:33:32.479 --> 01:33:34.640
actually, including Soviet tanks and all sorts

01:33:34.640 --> 01:33:38.289
of things were fighting. So, this total, I mean,

01:33:38.289 --> 01:33:40.770
if anything blew the notion of monolithic communism

01:33:40.770 --> 01:33:43.729
out of the water, nothing like having the monolith

01:33:43.729 --> 01:33:48.130
go to war with itself did that. Well, and, you

01:33:48.130 --> 01:33:49.329
know, when you think about it, there were other

01:33:49.329 --> 01:33:51.869
things. North Korea, I know the communist Chinese,

01:33:52.069 --> 01:33:55.609
you know, intervened in the Korean War in 1950,

01:33:55.930 --> 01:33:58.949
in late 1950. Of course, they did that. But North

01:33:58.949 --> 01:34:02.069
Korea was really an ally of the Soviets. more

01:34:02.069 --> 01:34:04.550
than it was of the Chinese. North Vietnam was

01:34:04.550 --> 01:34:07.250
a Soviet ally. And there were reasons for that.

01:34:07.560 --> 01:34:09.579
Because Vietnam and the Chinese had not gotten

01:34:09.579 --> 01:34:11.939
along very well over the centuries. Over the

01:34:11.939 --> 01:34:14.180
centuries. And so, you know, the enemy of my

01:34:14.180 --> 01:34:16.500
enemy is my friend kind of thing. Once we realized

01:34:16.500 --> 01:34:19.260
communism wasn't the monolithic creation of our

01:34:19.260 --> 01:34:22.260
own imagination, it took many steps and missteps

01:34:22.260 --> 01:34:25.300
to get Nixon going to China and setting in motion

01:34:25.300 --> 01:34:28.760
the steps necessary for a normalization of relations

01:34:28.760 --> 01:34:32.659
and coming to terms with Mao's China. This would

01:34:32.659 --> 01:34:35.300
have been easier had we had a more realistic

01:34:35.300 --> 01:34:38.819
understanding of China and not the fantasy world

01:34:38.819 --> 01:34:44.020
of monolithic communism. Both us and China, when

01:34:44.020 --> 01:34:46.819
Nixon went there, both us and China both wanted

01:34:46.819 --> 01:34:49.960
this alliance. They both wanted to get together

01:34:49.960 --> 01:34:53.600
because we wanted some help in Vietnam and China

01:34:53.600 --> 01:34:56.720
wanted some help. China was diplomatically isolated.

01:34:57.949 --> 01:35:02.850
by its separation from the Soviet Union. The

01:35:02.850 --> 01:35:07.010
funniest one actually took place in Warsaw. Some

01:35:07.010 --> 01:35:10.270
U .S. diplomats found out that some Chinese officials

01:35:10.270 --> 01:35:13.550
were going to be at a communist Polish fashion

01:35:13.550 --> 01:35:16.529
show. So some senior officials from the embassy

01:35:16.529 --> 01:35:20.489
basically showed up with the intent of basically...

01:35:21.199 --> 01:35:24.199
by chance, encountering the Chinese and wishing

01:35:24.199 --> 01:35:26.979
to pass a diplomatic note saying, we would like

01:35:26.979 --> 01:35:29.420
to have conversations with you about normalizing

01:35:29.420 --> 01:35:32.119
relations here, or establishing relations, establishing

01:35:32.119 --> 01:35:37.739
a dialogue. And the Chinese came, they looked,

01:35:37.920 --> 01:35:40.960
they went. And they managed to get away without

01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:43.300
the U .S. diplomats actually being able to encounter

01:35:43.300 --> 01:35:46.300
them inside the facility where this fashion show

01:35:46.300 --> 01:35:48.920
was taking. So you had a U .S. diplomat chasing

01:35:48.920 --> 01:35:52.560
the Chinese car down the streets of Warsaw with

01:35:52.560 --> 01:35:55.579
this note in his hand basically saying, please,

01:35:55.779 --> 01:35:57.939
please, please, let me give you this note here.

01:35:58.600 --> 01:36:02.159
And so it took a while for this to happen. And

01:36:02.159 --> 01:36:04.920
this was when? This would have been like 68 or

01:36:04.920 --> 01:36:08.810
69 when this was happening. Yeah. You know. I

01:36:08.810 --> 01:36:12.590
mean, Johnson kind of perceived it, but he kind

01:36:12.590 --> 01:36:15.470
of was a little bit wary at this point about

01:36:15.470 --> 01:36:17.789
any sort of adventures in foreign policy for

01:36:17.789 --> 01:36:21.590
obvious reasons. There was that, and you can't

01:36:21.590 --> 01:36:23.789
undersell, too, the hostility between the United

01:36:23.789 --> 01:36:26.010
States and the People's Republic of China after

01:36:26.010 --> 01:36:29.689
the Korean War because of the Korean War. Both

01:36:29.689 --> 01:36:32.289
sides were very upset with each other over the

01:36:32.289 --> 01:36:36.239
way that all had played out. The way it was put

01:36:36.239 --> 01:36:38.239
to me once in college was just think about this.

01:36:38.300 --> 01:36:42.199
For over 20 years, two of the largest countries

01:36:42.199 --> 01:36:45.800
on earth did not speak to each other. And in

01:36:45.800 --> 01:36:48.560
our case, we refused to acknowledge their existence.

01:36:48.979 --> 01:36:51.180
We didn't acknowledge their existence. And there

01:36:51.180 --> 01:36:54.720
was no diplomacy, nothing. We just did not speak

01:36:54.720 --> 01:36:56.479
to each other. I'm sure that's overblown, but

01:36:56.479 --> 01:37:00.779
it captures the essence of how bad that was for

01:37:00.779 --> 01:37:03.159
the course of 20 years. So to make this opening,

01:37:03.220 --> 01:37:05.460
to make this move. even though it might seem

01:37:05.460 --> 01:37:08.840
like an obvious thing to do now, was a really

01:37:08.840 --> 01:37:13.500
risky and revolutionary idea, if that's the right

01:37:13.500 --> 01:37:17.100
word to use, in terms of what to do. And to kind

01:37:17.100 --> 01:37:20.060
of look at this from how well, I mean, it's not

01:37:20.060 --> 01:37:22.460
like all of a sudden the scales dropped off people's

01:37:22.460 --> 01:37:26.520
eyes here. Mao wanted this. I mean, it wouldn't

01:37:26.520 --> 01:37:28.979
have happened if Mao didn't. And so one of the

01:37:28.979 --> 01:37:32.060
things that they tried to do to convey this,

01:37:32.119 --> 01:37:35.779
to use nonverbal communication, is they invited

01:37:35.779 --> 01:37:38.479
Edgar Snow. Edgar Snow was an American Chinese

01:37:38.479 --> 01:37:42.659
expert and kind of a fanboy of Mao. And they

01:37:42.659 --> 01:37:45.020
invited him to their national day to stand next

01:37:45.020 --> 01:37:48.319
to Mao on the Gate of Heavenly Peace. If we had

01:37:48.319 --> 01:37:50.760
had somebody basically paying attention and we

01:37:50.760 --> 01:37:52.640
didn't, again, this is what happens when you

01:37:52.640 --> 01:37:54.979
don't have experts to pick up on this stuff.

01:37:55.779 --> 01:37:58.460
Because any one of these guys would have said,

01:37:58.539 --> 01:38:01.640
American, American on the Gate of Heavenly Peace

01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:06.390
next to Mao. That means something. But we didn't

01:38:06.390 --> 01:38:08.409
have that. We had killed off that expertise.

01:38:09.149 --> 01:38:13.710
And so back in the 90s, there were some interviews

01:38:13.710 --> 01:38:17.550
about this whole dynamic here. And the Chinese

01:38:17.550 --> 01:38:19.229
said, yes, this is what we do. We thought this

01:38:19.229 --> 01:38:21.229
was the perfect way that we could convey this

01:38:21.229 --> 01:38:24.510
to the Americans. All right. Cut to Henry Kissinger.

01:38:24.609 --> 01:38:28.430
And Henry Kissinger is told that this was China's...

01:38:29.050 --> 01:38:31.390
way of approaching. National Security Advisor

01:38:31.390 --> 01:38:35.109
to Nixon in the first administration, then Secretary

01:38:35.109 --> 01:38:36.470
of State in the second administration. And also

01:38:36.470 --> 01:38:38.729
his point man on China. And also his point man

01:38:38.729 --> 01:38:40.770
on China, yes. And so, I mean, he's the one who

01:38:40.770 --> 01:38:43.510
basically makes the deal to get Nixon over there.

01:38:43.770 --> 01:38:47.350
But Kissinger hears this story about Edgar Snow,

01:38:47.649 --> 01:38:50.710
and he starts laughing and laughing and laughing.

01:38:50.789 --> 01:38:53.329
He says, we had no, and he looks and it's like

01:38:53.329 --> 01:38:56.630
been 20, 30 years later, and he's going, we had

01:38:56.630 --> 01:39:00.189
no idea. that this had even happened at the time.

01:39:00.289 --> 01:39:02.390
So the idea that we would pick up on this and

01:39:02.390 --> 01:39:05.369
basically A to B, but this is what happens when

01:39:05.369 --> 01:39:08.489
you get rid of your experts. People try to communicate

01:39:08.489 --> 01:39:11.630
with you diplomatically and you don't understand

01:39:11.630 --> 01:39:15.569
what's going on. And from what I understand from

01:39:15.569 --> 01:39:18.430
reading the China hands, there were several,

01:39:18.449 --> 01:39:20.170
this was almost like a cottage industry in the

01:39:20.170 --> 01:39:23.270
1980s. because some of these guys were writing

01:39:23.270 --> 01:39:25.630
memoirs and people were interviewing them, they

01:39:25.630 --> 01:39:27.829
actually found it amusing. They found this whole

01:39:27.829 --> 01:39:29.710
thing terribly amusing when Nixon went to China,

01:39:29.770 --> 01:39:33.489
because U .S. officials are not really picking

01:39:33.489 --> 01:39:35.449
up on who they're talking to, and they can tell

01:39:35.449 --> 01:39:37.909
this from the television coverage, because they

01:39:37.909 --> 01:39:41.210
knew these guys when they were living in caves.

01:39:42.119 --> 01:39:44.539
And they knew who was important and who wasn't

01:39:44.539 --> 01:39:46.640
and who was related to who. And they were just

01:39:46.640 --> 01:39:48.140
sitting there. And you're referring to during

01:39:48.140 --> 01:39:50.260
the Civil War. During the Civil War. During World

01:39:50.260 --> 01:39:52.979
War II. World War II. Because that's when they

01:39:52.979 --> 01:39:55.340
knew them. That's when they had involvement with

01:39:55.340 --> 01:39:56.840
these guys. They were shuttling back and forth

01:39:56.840 --> 01:39:58.439
talking to Stilwell like we talked about earlier.

01:39:58.699 --> 01:40:02.159
Yes. And so they are watching Nixon and various

01:40:02.159 --> 01:40:07.010
officials close to Nixon in. Beijing, whatever

01:40:07.010 --> 01:40:09.010
you want to call it. And they're like saying,

01:40:09.130 --> 01:40:10.829
look, they don't know who they're talking to.

01:40:10.930 --> 01:40:13.810
They're not, they could tell from body language

01:40:13.810 --> 01:40:17.369
that they didn't really have a good understanding

01:40:17.369 --> 01:40:20.949
of who they were dealing with even then, even

01:40:20.949 --> 01:40:22.550
though they're on the ground. And it's because

01:40:22.550 --> 01:40:28.149
you have this major shift, this major lost generation

01:40:28.149 --> 01:40:34.979
of expertise that's not only continued. The fine

01:40:34.979 --> 01:40:37.939
tradition of making it difficult to understand

01:40:37.939 --> 01:40:42.180
China, but also— By losing that generation. By

01:40:42.180 --> 01:40:44.340
losing that generation. And then you have to

01:40:44.340 --> 01:40:48.760
organically recreate it. And all of these guys

01:40:48.760 --> 01:40:52.500
are persona non grata within any sort of academic

01:40:52.500 --> 01:40:56.579
institution as well. And, you know, this is—I

01:40:56.579 --> 01:40:58.680
think this is a huge cautionary note because,

01:40:58.779 --> 01:41:01.800
you know, Vietnam didn't necessarily have to

01:41:01.800 --> 01:41:06.539
happen. we did not have to have this long silence

01:41:06.539 --> 01:41:09.380
between us and China. I mean, I'm not trying

01:41:09.380 --> 01:41:12.399
to say China is this great place. I mean, it's

01:41:12.399 --> 01:41:15.239
a murderous regime, but we would have been better

01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:18.859
off for U .S. interest if we had been able to

01:41:18.859 --> 01:41:21.300
talk to the Chinese and we'd actually been able

01:41:21.300 --> 01:41:23.479
to acknowledge them during this period and not

01:41:23.479 --> 01:41:25.779
come up with this totally false, misleading,

01:41:26.079 --> 01:41:30.130
and counterproductive scenario for us. During

01:41:30.130 --> 01:41:32.670
the period of the 50s, the 60s, and even up to

01:41:32.670 --> 01:41:35.369
the early 70s. And that's kind of where I want

01:41:35.369 --> 01:41:38.430
to stop because what happens afterwards, we need

01:41:38.430 --> 01:41:41.029
to let some time go by before we can actually

01:41:41.029 --> 01:41:43.850
make conclusions about it. But I'd say this is

01:41:43.850 --> 01:41:48.210
a good example, a good template for what not

01:41:48.210 --> 01:41:51.310
to do. You know, just to say the Peloponnesian

01:41:51.310 --> 01:41:53.810
War is a good example of what not to do. But

01:41:53.810 --> 01:41:56.069
Nixon did go to China. He did go to China. So

01:41:56.069 --> 01:41:59.529
this all did happen. It did happen. There has

01:41:59.529 --> 01:42:02.970
to be some kind of a sea change that occurs in

01:42:02.970 --> 01:42:05.930
the late 60s to allow this to happen then? What

01:42:05.930 --> 01:42:10.689
year did he go? 72? 71. 72? During the election.

01:42:10.729 --> 01:42:13.630
Of course he'd do it in 72. Oh, yeah. Okay. Right.

01:42:13.729 --> 01:42:17.619
72. Yeah. You wouldn't waste a good visit to

01:42:17.619 --> 01:42:22.619
China on a non -election year. It's winter, though.

01:42:23.399 --> 01:42:26.140
It's January or February. I remember because

01:42:26.140 --> 01:42:28.500
this was something that was really exciting to

01:42:28.500 --> 01:42:33.520
me at the time. And I remember I made a poster

01:42:33.520 --> 01:42:38.060
of it for class, for current events class. Cut

01:42:38.060 --> 01:42:41.399
out pictures and everything. I mean, what was

01:42:41.399 --> 01:42:44.489
interesting to me just... Because I think Mike

01:42:44.489 --> 01:42:46.970
wants to look up exact dates here. Well, actually,

01:42:47.050 --> 01:42:49.409
I'm curious about this, though. So things were

01:42:49.409 --> 01:42:51.609
going on. Yes, they were. Things were going on

01:42:51.609 --> 01:42:53.270
before Nixon went to China. Yes, they were. This

01:42:53.270 --> 01:42:55.149
is what I'm trying to nail down a bit. And what

01:42:55.149 --> 01:42:57.529
I was looking up is, I wanted to make sure of

01:42:57.529 --> 01:43:00.350
this, the United Nations recognized the People's

01:43:00.350 --> 01:43:02.869
Republic of China, the communist Chinese government,

01:43:02.890 --> 01:43:07.850
as the legitimate government of China on October

01:43:07.850 --> 01:43:13.430
25th, 1971. Yes. And so everybody understands

01:43:13.430 --> 01:43:16.390
what we called Taiwan, the Republic of China

01:43:16.390 --> 01:43:19.449
government, was on the Security Council. It was

01:43:19.449 --> 01:43:21.029
the government of China as far as the United

01:43:21.029 --> 01:43:24.909
Nations was concerned until October 1971 when

01:43:24.909 --> 01:43:27.229
the UN recognized the People's Republic of China.

01:43:27.229 --> 01:43:29.010
We kind of had the five policemen because we

01:43:29.010 --> 01:43:33.329
had France as well as... Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it

01:43:33.329 --> 01:43:35.470
kind of was FDR's vision that we talked about

01:43:35.470 --> 01:43:36.890
earlier. It was the Security Council. In a way,

01:43:36.949 --> 01:43:40.039
it was Security Council plus France. Yeah. Anyway,

01:43:40.079 --> 01:43:42.020
what I'm trying to get to is this. So Nixon went

01:43:42.020 --> 01:43:43.960
to China in 72, but things are going on in the

01:43:43.960 --> 01:43:46.539
meantime. The UN is recognizing the PRC as the

01:43:46.539 --> 01:43:49.159
government of China in 71 before Nixon gets there.

01:43:49.319 --> 01:43:53.039
Which wouldn't have happened without us. So I'm

01:43:53.039 --> 01:43:55.380
trying to walk the dog back here, right? So guys

01:43:55.380 --> 01:43:56.680
running down the street with the thing in his

01:43:56.680 --> 01:44:00.729
hand, please meet with us. 71, the UN recognizes

01:44:00.729 --> 01:44:03.010
the PRC. 72, Nixon goes to China. What happens

01:44:03.010 --> 01:44:07.010
in 68, 69, 70, 71 to make this big change? Nothing

01:44:07.010 --> 01:44:09.250
significant is going to happen until Nixon gets

01:44:09.250 --> 01:44:12.289
into office there. In January 69, he takes office.

01:44:12.569 --> 01:44:14.689
But to get back to your original question, Mike,

01:44:14.810 --> 01:44:20.770
the process of becoming more attuned to what's

01:44:20.770 --> 01:44:25.310
going on with China and Asia is something that

01:44:25.310 --> 01:44:28.420
is acquired through the hard lessons. kind of

01:44:28.420 --> 01:44:31.520
on -the -job training of Vietnam. And so there

01:44:31.520 --> 01:44:34.300
is a more realistic understanding of what's happening

01:44:34.300 --> 01:44:37.579
due to our involvement in Vietnam. Also, you

01:44:37.579 --> 01:44:41.380
have in 1964, right before the election, China

01:44:41.380 --> 01:44:45.800
gets the bomb. So having a nuclear device is

01:44:45.800 --> 01:44:48.720
the easiest way any power can have to establish

01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:52.569
respect. amongst its peers throughout the known

01:44:52.569 --> 01:44:55.229
world. There were some efforts on the part of

01:44:55.229 --> 01:44:59.829
the Johnson administration in 67, 68, to kind

01:44:59.829 --> 01:45:03.409
of try to establish some sort of beachhead with

01:45:03.409 --> 01:45:06.810
regard to the Chinese, but it just didn't go

01:45:06.810 --> 01:45:09.449
anywhere. There just wasn't that much energy

01:45:09.449 --> 01:45:13.590
to go and attempt something like that because

01:45:13.590 --> 01:45:16.350
Vietnam is taking up all the time and all the

01:45:16.350 --> 01:45:19.180
effort and all the energy. So we've got to wait

01:45:19.180 --> 01:45:21.720
till Nixon, because Nixon's looking for a new

01:45:21.720 --> 01:45:26.100
approach to the situation in Asia, to Vietnam,

01:45:26.260 --> 01:45:29.699
and also to try to practice what's called triangular

01:45:29.699 --> 01:45:34.500
diplomacy involving China versus Russia and the

01:45:34.500 --> 01:45:36.220
United States, playing them both off against

01:45:36.220 --> 01:45:39.199
each other. But we'll get into some of the larger

01:45:39.199 --> 01:45:42.380
issues for this story of our relations with China

01:45:42.380 --> 01:45:47.979
in our next episode. That's it for this episode

01:45:47.979 --> 01:45:50.960
of the United States of Amnesia. Thank you for

01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:53.439
listening. We hope you learned something and

01:45:53.439 --> 01:45:55.420
we hope you discovered new ways of looking at

01:45:55.420 --> 01:45:57.840
things you had already heard or thought about

01:45:57.840 --> 01:46:01.260
or perhaps hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed

01:46:01.260 --> 01:46:03.579
it, that's great. If we made you mad, that's

01:46:03.579 --> 01:46:08.500
okay too. Either way, email us at usa .amnesia

01:46:08.500 --> 01:46:11.079
at gmail .com and let us know what you think.

01:46:11.609 --> 01:46:13.750
Also, let us know about anything you think we

01:46:13.750 --> 01:46:15.829
missed or got wrong. We'd like to know about

01:46:15.829 --> 01:46:19.170
that too. And of course, please like and subscribe

01:46:19.170 --> 01:46:21.289
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01:46:21.289 --> 01:46:27.770
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01:46:27.770 --> 01:46:32.329
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01:46:32.329 --> 01:46:33.250
Till next time.