The U.S. And Iran: What Went Wrong? - Meet the Pahlavis

WEBVTT

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How did the relationship between the United States

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and Iran go from early cooperation years ago

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to decades now of conflict? In this series, we

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trace the history of Iran and America's involvement

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in the Middle East, examining the decisions,

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successes, failures, foreign interventions, and

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competing interests that shaped the region. Our

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goal here is to provide historical context for

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today's conflicts and challenge some of the common

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assumptions Americans have about Iran, Israel,

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the Middle East, and the role the United States

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has played in their development. Welcome to the

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United States of Amnesia, the podcast that reminds

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us of what we have forgotten. History doesn't

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just tell us where we've been, it shapes how

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we understand the present. Yet the past is never

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as simple as we remember it. Over time, history

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becomes filtered through politics, ideology,

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and popular myth until the original story can

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be hard to recognize. History may not repeat

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itself, per se, but it often rhymes, as Mark

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Twain once remarked. Join Marshall Newman, Mike

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Mendenhall, and Blake Hinckley as we explore

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history, politics, religion, and the connections

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between them. By understanding the past more

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clearly, we can better understand the present.

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and prepare for history's next rhyme. In this

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episode, we discuss the events of 1920 to 1941,

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and in this period, we see Reza Pahlavi become

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the Shah of Iran as Reza Shah, establishing the

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Pahlavi dynasty. With the United Kingdom and

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Soviet Union still eyeing his country greedily,

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Reza Shah rules until 1941, when his pro -German

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sympathies during World War II play a role in

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his ouster. We are delighted to be joined again

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at the table by Sharon Bybee as our guest. She

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is a retired intelligence professional and the

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author of the sub stack Redacted No More. And

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she joins us again today. Welcome. We must have

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a policy in Persia. We are there and there we

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must remain because our interests are vital.

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And because whether the Persians like it or they

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do not, we cannot afford to let any other power

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take our place. This is a quote from George Nathan

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Curzon, the first Marquess of Curzon of Kettleston.

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He was Viceroy of India in 1899 to 1905, and

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also Foreign Secretary 1919 to 1924. And this

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was remarks that he made on February 14th, 1924.

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Not exactly a Valentine to Persia. But it kind

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of sums up the British position as far as how

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they regarded Persia or later Iran in terms of

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the importance that they attached to it and the

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importance that they attached to it playing a

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dominant role in the affairs of the state. And

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this is very much a British point of view, an

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imperialist point of view of Persia. It assumes

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a Persia that was not capable of handling its

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own affairs. But there actually were some Iranians

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who could handle their affairs. If you harken

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back to what we talked about in episode one,

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we had just had the constitutional revolution,

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a revolution. before the Bolshevik Revolution.

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We had the tobacco protest. There were Iranian

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leaders in the country who were capable of leading

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the country, but they probably weren't as amenable

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to British interest as the British wanted. And

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I might even take it a step further and say that

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there were imperious powers that were keeping

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Iran weak and then claiming that the country

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wasn't capable of self -government. And this

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was a useful fiction that the British developed.

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And we're going to see this come up time and

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time again during the course of the period that

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we're going to be discussing in this episode,

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Meet the Pahlavis, in which we see what happens

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to Iran after World War I and up to World War

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II. By 1920, the impact of World War I and the

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ensuing pandemics had left Persia devastated.

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Although the figures, as we discussed last time,

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are still very controversial about the size and

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scope, historians all agree that the exploitation

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of Persia by both sides of the combatants in

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World War I was devastating to the population

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and represented a significant loss to the country

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as a whole. There was a huge famine that occurred

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during the war. There were all manner of pandemics,

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such as typhus. There's Spanish influenza. There

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were massacres that happened in some areas. Yes.

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So really, you can't really advertise the incompetence

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of the Qajar dynasty. better than saying they

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are presiding over all of this and they are doing

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absolutely nothing to prevent it from happening.

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And we discussed the Qajars last time, and they

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were the incompetent dynasty that was in charge

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of Iran from the end of the 18th century until

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the period we're talking about now. They were

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also very corrupt, too, and they were prone to

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take a lot of money from the West in order to

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support a rather lavish lifestyle, not all of

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which was conducted inside Iran. involved travel

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to Europe and staying at the best of hotels,

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etc. But where we are right now in 1920, things

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cannot have been going worse for that ruling

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dynasty. One of the things that Iran was trying

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to, or I should say Persia, was trying to achieve

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at the end of World War II, World War I rather,

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was to gained some sort of position at the Versailles

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Conference to basically have its sovereignty

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ratified, kind of discuss some of the issues

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that it had been facing from the various imperial

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powers. This was something the Americans had

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no problem with. So this idea that there's this

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hatred between the two countries, that certainly

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was not the case at the end of World War I. The

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British... and in particular Lord Curzon, whose

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quotation we used to open the discussion, were

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absolutely adamant that there would be no Persian

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representation at the Versailles conference at

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all. Because having that kind of elevates them.

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Again, like what Sharon is talking about earlier,

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about how this was a way of kind of minimizing

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them and keeping them a small people, a lesser

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people. This is... kind of part and parcel of

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that overarching strategy there. A lot of non

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-European countries came to Versailles hoping

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to get a fair shake under Wilson's principles

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of self -determination of peoples and everything.

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Very few of them got much of a hearing. Even

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the Japanese, who were an ally, got pretty much

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ignored during that. And pretty much it was a

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conference for white people. is what it really

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comes down to in history. Imperial power is dividing

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everything up. Wilson was more interested in

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what happened to white people than anybody else,

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frankly, and their self -determination. And the

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imperial power has just kind of exploited it

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and used it to seek their own advancement on

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the map of the world, which is what you're talking

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about with the British regarding Persia. Yes,

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but where we are in the overall picture of things

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right now, there are some positive things emerging.

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First of all, Britain and Russia are not in a

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position to exercise the same level of control

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that they had done throughout the 19th century

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to the detriment of Persia. And having the same

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level of influence within the country by getting

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the cause to sell off parts and parcels of it.

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So first of all, we have Russia and Russia is

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actually probably. Of the two, it's probably

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the nastiest. Russia had had a revolution, and

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so the old czarist order that had prevailed was

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not there, and Russia was kind of inwardly focused

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on its own revolution and civil war for the time

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being. Which went on until 1921. Well, if you

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really want to come up with a date, I would say

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end it in 24, because that's when the Soviet

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Union actually gets established as a country.

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Well, I mean, and even worse is that after Russia

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withdrew from World War I in 1917, the Germans

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just kept advancing. So they lost large amounts

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of territory. All sorts of parts of the Russian

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Empire sprang up as independent countries briefly.

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So they were dealing with all of that, plus their

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own civil war. So Russia was in no condition.

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to intervene anywhere else in the world during

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this period. And Lenin was disinclined to do

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so. With good reason. Yeah, I mean, it's like

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too much on my plate right now. And they're having

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their own pandemics. The United States is actually

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having to do food aid to prevent starvation,

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which was very prevalent within the former Russian

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Empire at the time. That was quite a big thing.

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It's been forgotten now. The United States sent

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a lot of food aid overseas right after World

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War I. Herbert Hoover was the one who was in

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charge of it. Now, the British, the British are

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in a kind of, you know, a good place and a bad

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place. The bad place is that they're exhausted

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from fighting World War I. I mean, this was devastating

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to the population. A whole generation was cut

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down in the Western Front. However— It was very

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expensive. Yes. The British Empire actually started

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to really go into decline because of the expenses

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of World War I and later World War II. I have

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seen economic analysis that essentially the 20th

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century was a slow but certain economic decline

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on the part of the British beginning in 1900

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when they're facing competition from— The United

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States and Germany economically. So they're no

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longer in that leading economic position. But

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they came out of the war in a much better position

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than Russia. Oh, yes. Almost everybody came out

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in a better position. Yes. On the Allied side.

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Well, they came out in terms of land. You know,

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this is the high watermark for in terms of in

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terms of area of the world that Britain controlled.

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Britain controls more land at the end of World

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War One. than it did at the beginning. Because

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of the pickups it made in the Middle East. Yes.

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And this is the Sykes -Picot Treaty in 1916,

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which France and Britain divided up the Ottoman

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Empire. Britain, and particularly Lord Curzon,

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had this vision of being able to have control

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of the land that existed between the Mediterranean

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and India. And so that... What they were able

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to get out of this, they were able to get out

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Transjordan, as it was called. They were able

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to get mandates in Palestine, which were troublesome

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for the most part, and also Iraq. And now they

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wanted to get Persia. And so there was considerable,

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as we talked about last time, attempts to kind

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of gain influence within Persia. Not to make

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it a mandate as, say, with these other countries,

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but make it a mandate in everything but name.

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So let's clarify for everyone. So the Ottoman

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Empire fought on the Central Powers side during

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World War I. That's the side of Germany and Austria

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-Hungary and Bulgaria. They lost as one of the

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Central Powers. After they lost, the Ottoman

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Empire lost the war. like you said, the agreement

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in 1916 had been how they were going to divide

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it up. They hadn't lost yet, so it wasn't divided

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up in 1916. But right after the war, the British

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and French started dividing up all the Ottoman

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territories. Yes. And so a lot of the lines on

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the map we see today result from lines they drew

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on the map at the end of World War I. Countries

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that were created there. Countries that were

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created by the British and the French without

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regard to the people living in them. Particularly

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the case of Iraq there. And the Ottoman Empire

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was in its last days during World War I, but

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I mean, it still, technically it included Egypt,

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but it also went down into the Arabian Peninsula.

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And like you were saying, Marshall, it controlled

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the Levant area, what's now Israel and Jordan

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and Syria and Lebanon and all that. And Iraq.

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It did not include, and of course it included

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modern Turkey. It did not include Iran. No. Or

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Persia. Persia was a traditional rival of the

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Ottoman Empire. But since the British and French

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were dividing up the Ottoman Empire, they also

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had Iran, Persia there too. to consider as well

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yes Now, I will say this for Curzon. Curzon probably

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did understand what we would now call the Middle

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East better than most people in his position.

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He was actually versed in the languages and culture.

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But the way that he viewed the culture and the

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people that lived in this area was almost as

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exotics. And I'm going to basically refer back

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to some of the concepts that Edward Said talks

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about in his book Orientalism. These are cute

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things. These are things that happen. aesthetic

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value, but they are not necessarily serious places

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populated by serious people who are capable of

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governing their own affairs. And creating this

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region as an exotic region is a way of kind of

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diminishing them in terms of equality before

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other nations of the world, the white nations

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of the world, if you will. Absolutely. It was

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very much an imperialistic point of view of Western

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primacy and everybody else is in a subordinate

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position to be used for their British needs and

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not taking into account what the people in those

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areas actually might need or how they wanted

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to govern themselves in any way. Well, what Curzon

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said in his 1892 book, Persia and the Persian

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question. And just imagine this. You have somebody

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who is a foreign minister who actually has written

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a book on Persia or any country in the world

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here. You just cannot imagine this. So there's

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a certain degree of interest that we don't necessarily

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see out of... other people, people that were

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successors. You can't really imagine this today,

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having somebody who's an expert in a particular

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region getting up to that level. And his take

00:15:18.690 --> 00:15:22.450
on Persia was that Persia was one of the pieces

00:15:22.450 --> 00:15:25.529
on the chessboard on which is played out the

00:15:25.529 --> 00:15:30.590
game for the domination of the world. So Curzon

00:15:30.590 --> 00:15:34.049
is actually articulating... before oil is even

00:15:34.049 --> 00:15:35.990
discovered here. He's viewing it as just like

00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:38.429
real estate that's important for the British

00:15:38.429 --> 00:15:43.750
Empire's continued survival and operations there.

00:15:44.149 --> 00:15:46.830
Because the logic of empires are you have certain

00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:48.649
areas of your empire that are more important

00:15:48.649 --> 00:15:51.529
than others, but you often need to control the

00:15:51.529 --> 00:15:54.809
less important areas because they create buffers

00:15:54.809 --> 00:15:57.090
against other imperial powers. They create places

00:15:57.090 --> 00:16:01.210
where you can base your ships, things like that.

00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:04.799
In imperial thinking, the idea of it as a chessboard

00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:06.679
is actually a very apt one, because you really

00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:08.480
are moving pieces around a chessboard as far

00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.779
as imperial powers are concerned. And he is trying,

00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:13.399
and mainly what the preoccupation for the British

00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:17.019
is, it's not necessarily Persia, it's Persia,

00:16:17.019 --> 00:16:20.899
how it relates to India, the jewel in the crown,

00:16:21.139 --> 00:16:23.440
so to speak, of the British Empire. Much of what

00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:25.460
the British did always seemed to focus on India.

00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:28.179
That was the jewel in the crown for them. So

00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:32.590
Curzon... has been viceroy in India. He is now

00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:36.070
in the period that we're taking up the story.

00:16:36.309 --> 00:16:41.769
He is foreign minister in the cabinet. And so

00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:46.009
his idea was to basically come up with the Anglo

00:16:46.009 --> 00:16:51.230
-Persian Treaty. And this was something that

00:16:51.230 --> 00:16:56.659
essentially put... Persia in a subordinate position

00:16:56.659 --> 00:17:01.539
to Britain, not unlike the sort of relationship

00:17:01.539 --> 00:17:03.759
that exists in the 19th century where they're

00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.609
practically owning the place, running... areas

00:17:06.609 --> 00:17:08.950
of territory, et cetera. Of course, there's no

00:17:08.950 --> 00:17:13.089
Russia to deal with in this case. So that makes

00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:14.950
things a little bit easier for them. When was

00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:18.150
the treaty? The treaty never got ratified. Okay.

00:17:18.210 --> 00:17:21.890
When was it being proposed? Like in 1920. Okay.

00:17:21.950 --> 00:17:25.650
And so the Majlis refused to ratify it because

00:17:25.650 --> 00:17:29.049
they saw, I mean, this is, you know, we have

00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:31.410
this idea of, you know, representative government

00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:36.859
and, you know, this is an idea that people are

00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:39.660
trying to diminish their capacity for recognizing

00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:41.799
self -interest and being able to govern their

00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.859
own affairs. I think this is a perfect example

00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:48.059
of the Persians recognizing their, you know,

00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.680
we're losing sovereignty with this treaty. There's

00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.519
no reason that we're going to accept it. So you

00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:53.960
say people are trying to do this. You mean that

00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:55.700
the British are trying to? The British are trying

00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:58.819
to do this, yes. But there are people in Iran

00:17:58.819 --> 00:18:00.519
are trying to preserve their sovereignty. Yes.

00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:01.579
They're even trying to preserve some kind of

00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:04.000
a parliamentary system. Yes. Representation,

00:18:04.059 --> 00:18:09.390
yeah. With this defeated, the thinking at the

00:18:09.390 --> 00:18:12.930
foreign office, not necessarily Curzon's, but

00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:14.890
Curzon would have been part of this, was that

00:18:14.890 --> 00:18:18.890
there are other ways in which one can maintain

00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:22.049
a favorable situation with regard to Persia.

00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:26.410
And the solution that they were looking for was

00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:29.750
something that would allow them to kind of maintain

00:18:29.750 --> 00:18:34.000
their oil interests, which are strategic. This

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.519
is how the Royal Navy gets around, it's true.

00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:41.160
The oil that is both exploited and refined there.

00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:47.519
So the idea is, let's see if we can find a strong

00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.829
man who can come in. And this is a solution that

00:18:51.829 --> 00:18:54.750
comes up not just with the British, but with

00:18:54.750 --> 00:19:00.099
us later on. The idea that Iran, Persia... needs

00:19:00.099 --> 00:19:03.599
a strong man that we can do business with. Not

00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.700
this chaotic parliament and representative democracy,

00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:10.400
but a strong person to take control of things.

00:19:12.690 --> 00:19:17.210
This leads us to the main person in our story

00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:21.490
this time, and this is Reza Shah here. Reza Shah

00:19:21.490 --> 00:19:24.609
starts out, first of all, there is some question

00:19:24.609 --> 00:19:28.670
sharing, I think, that he's even Persian. True.

00:19:28.670 --> 00:19:34.069
He was not actually from the Persian part of

00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:37.109
Iran. No, he's from Azerbaijan. Yeah, he's from

00:19:37.109 --> 00:19:40.890
Azerbaijan. And even then, I think his family

00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:44.809
was from the Caucasus originally and then went

00:19:44.809 --> 00:19:50.029
to Azerbaijan, but became more Persian than Persian.

00:19:50.410 --> 00:19:52.210
Well, and when we're speaking of Azerbaijan in

00:19:52.210 --> 00:19:54.369
this context, we're talking about... Iranian

00:19:54.369 --> 00:19:57.009
or Persian Azerbaijan as opposed to Azerbaijan,

00:19:57.170 --> 00:20:02.589
which is a country and was a province in Imperial

00:20:02.589 --> 00:20:05.970
Russia here. So there's Persian Azerbaijan in

00:20:05.970 --> 00:20:08.309
the northern part of the country, and that is

00:20:08.309 --> 00:20:10.509
where his family is fleeing from the Caucasus,

00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:13.210
and that is where they're setting up shop here

00:20:13.210 --> 00:20:17.009
in the 19th century. So he is not really Persian.

00:20:17.269 --> 00:20:21.039
Do the Azeris have a strong... A cultural affinity,

00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.559
though, with Iran, with Persia, or more with

00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.240
Turkey? They are a Turkic people. They are Turkic,

00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.920
okay. And people I have known from Azerbaijan

00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.380
have kind of looked to Turkey as kind of like

00:20:32.380 --> 00:20:35.480
the elder brother here. You know, they are Sunni.

00:20:35.980 --> 00:20:39.819
They are not Shiites. And I don't think... I

00:20:39.819 --> 00:20:41.779
would need to look this up. I don't think that

00:20:41.779 --> 00:20:44.640
there's a strong Azeri separatist movement in

00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.819
Iran. No, not in Iran. But I mean, just in Azeri

00:20:47.819 --> 00:20:51.680
culture, say like in the former Soviet Union

00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.480
or in Azerbaijan itself, Turkey has always been

00:20:55.480 --> 00:21:00.000
kind of... uh an influence over that region yeah

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.720
yeah i mean like some of the some of the some

00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.380
of the young turks i know i'm kind of getting

00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:08.019
into deep water here but these were a revolutionary

00:21:08.019 --> 00:21:12.240
group of of officers in the late ottoman empire

00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.980
they were actually looking to nibble off parts

00:21:15.980 --> 00:21:20.359
of that the turkic speaking parts of russia which

00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:24.640
is central asia and also um Azerbaijan itself

00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:29.819
and kind of put them under their influence as

00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:33.519
part of their grand design. It failed, but this

00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:38.700
was something that they were taking on as a project.

00:21:39.380 --> 00:21:41.539
I just didn't want to leave people with the impression

00:21:41.539 --> 00:21:45.500
that some of these ethnic minority groups didn't

00:21:45.500 --> 00:21:50.500
think of themselves as part of the... Persian

00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:53.839
state or Iranian state, if you will, because

00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:57.559
while there are some separatist ethnic groups,

00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:01.779
the Kurds are the most notorious ones. Most of

00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:07.240
the ethnic minority groups, the Azeris, the Lurs,

00:22:07.299 --> 00:22:11.900
they all still think of themselves as part of

00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:14.980
the state. They're not looking to form different

00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:17.450
parties. A different separate state. And like

00:22:17.450 --> 00:22:21.250
some minority groups over in Persia slash Iran,

00:22:21.430 --> 00:22:24.069
they are accommodated. Exactly. They're not persecuted.

00:22:24.470 --> 00:22:27.410
Right. They are accommodated and are seen as,

00:22:27.430 --> 00:22:31.549
you know, part of the great tapestry of the nation

00:22:31.549 --> 00:22:36.509
there. Most definitely. So let's talk about our

00:22:36.509 --> 00:22:40.549
leading character in this episode. He starts

00:22:40.549 --> 00:22:46.599
off with the name Reza Khan. He was kind of put

00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:50.279
on the road, the upward trajectory road, because

00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:53.599
he was favored by the British. He was from the

00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:57.000
northern part of Persia in Azerbaijan. And like

00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.700
Sharon said, his family had fled from the Caucasus

00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:03.440
when the Russians took over in the 19th century.

00:23:05.230 --> 00:23:07.410
He has no sense of humor, this man does. He's

00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:12.849
very grim. He's very stern. He's incredibly regimented.

00:23:12.950 --> 00:23:15.650
He's a bit of an ascetic. He sleeps on the floor,

00:23:15.769 --> 00:23:19.670
not in a bed. He is definitely trying to embody

00:23:19.670 --> 00:23:24.640
this notion of the old soldier here. He was with

00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:29.319
a group called the Cossacks. Now, Iran slash

00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:33.019
Persia had its own group called the Cossacks,

00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:34.900
and this was originally a regiment that was set

00:23:34.900 --> 00:23:39.200
up by the Russians. It was the best and most

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:44.920
capable military formation within Persia at the

00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:49.240
time. So he is with kind of the elite organization

00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:55.220
here. Like so many people did in the early part

00:23:55.220 --> 00:23:59.660
of the 20s, Mussolini, for example, Reza Khan

00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:02.740
led the Cossacks, led his military formation

00:24:02.740 --> 00:24:07.319
to march on Tehran in February 1921 and seizes

00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:10.140
control of the government. He does not seize

00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:14.990
control of the government himself immediately.

00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.920
What he does seize control of, he is commander

00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:20.819
-in -chief of the armed forces and minister of

00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:24.460
war after this coup takes place, which puts him

00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:28.849
in a very advantageous position in terms of continuing

00:24:28.849 --> 00:24:33.900
his further ascent to power here. And, you know,

00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.599
the military is going to be kind of his main

00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:41.779
focus for good or for evil, and we will get into

00:24:41.779 --> 00:24:47.079
some of that. In 1923, after he has consolidated

00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.740
his control of the armed forces, he becomes prime

00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:54.380
minister. And then finally in 1925, the Contra

00:24:54.380 --> 00:24:58.099
family is formally deposed, and he assumes the

00:24:58.099 --> 00:25:02.960
name of Reza Pahlavi, and this he does through

00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:06.299
somewhat creative use of genealogy, in the sense

00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:11.799
that he manages to find that, surprise, surprise,

00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:16.329
he is in fact, Persian nobility that's been hanging

00:25:16.329 --> 00:25:21.029
out up in the Caucasus for generation after generation.

00:25:21.309 --> 00:25:25.349
And he has come down to kind of assume his God

00:25:25.349 --> 00:25:32.130
-given role of being in charge of Persia. And

00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:38.680
the name actually comes from Pathia, and it refers

00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:41.539
back to the Parthian Empire that was kind of

00:25:41.539 --> 00:25:44.420
in competition. with the Roman Empire. This is

00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:48.319
all very convoluted. It is totally non -credible,

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.039
but this was the story that was coming out to

00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.160
kind of ennoble this rather rough -hewn, nearly

00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:02.339
illiterate person who was taking charge of Persia.

00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.400
He was very much, he became kind of like Napoleon.

00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:10.299
If I can draw a comparison there, Napoleon was

00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:14.299
Corsican. His family was probably more Italian

00:26:14.299 --> 00:26:17.500
than French. But once Napoleon became emperor,

00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:20.519
he became more French than the French. And so

00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:25.140
with Reza Shah, Reza Shah becomes more Persian

00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:28.279
than the Persians in the sense that he is actually

00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:32.930
hearkening back to a time when... There was no

00:26:32.930 --> 00:26:36.450
Islam where Persia was like one of the leading

00:26:36.450 --> 00:26:39.289
powers in the ancient world. And this is kind

00:26:39.289 --> 00:26:42.329
of the mythos that he is going to use and his

00:26:42.329 --> 00:26:46.369
son is going to use to present themselves as

00:26:46.369 --> 00:26:50.410
in line with... this sort of ancient civilization,

00:26:50.789 --> 00:26:55.130
pre -Islamic civilization, and much more secular

00:26:55.130 --> 00:27:00.029
organization than we normally would expect to

00:27:00.029 --> 00:27:04.390
see in Persia at this point. So there was this

00:27:04.390 --> 00:27:08.490
idea of Persian nationalism that goes back even

00:27:08.490 --> 00:27:13.410
before Reza Shah came to power. It existed in

00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:16.589
intellectual circles for a long time before,

00:27:16.690 --> 00:27:19.990
even under the constitutionalists and under the

00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:23.829
nationalists, under the Qajars. But what Reza

00:27:23.829 --> 00:27:28.589
Shah did was really quite ingenious in a way,

00:27:28.589 --> 00:27:33.109
is that he took it. and he embodied it, and then

00:27:33.109 --> 00:27:36.869
he institutionalized it and made it part of the

00:27:36.869 --> 00:27:40.309
state. So as we continue on, you're going to

00:27:40.309 --> 00:27:45.569
see that it was a really remarkable way of taking

00:27:45.569 --> 00:27:49.329
this idea that had existed in Persia for a very

00:27:49.329 --> 00:27:52.849
long time and really just putting it on steroids.

00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:58.319
This would create certain difficulties both for

00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:02.059
him and also for his successor, which we will

00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:06.680
address in the course of time, with people who

00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:12.980
kind of saw this as threatening Islam in Persia.

00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:17.829
And this secular approach... kind of put him

00:28:17.829 --> 00:28:21.369
at odds with religious authorities, which we

00:28:21.369 --> 00:28:25.069
will talk about in this episode subsequently.

00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:31.309
But I'm going to talk about who Razor Shaw looked

00:28:31.309 --> 00:28:35.559
to. in order to initiate reforms, because clearly

00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:38.160
the Khazar state was not something, you know,

00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:40.140
take it out back and shoot it, because that was

00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:43.480
about all it was good for at this point. He looked

00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:46.259
to a counterpart over in Turkey, and this was

00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:50.079
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. And Ataturk, just to go

00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.519
into a little bit about him, he was the great

00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:55.480
modernizer of the former Ottoman Empire, the

00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.220
Turkish state. He was the creator of the Turkish

00:28:57.220 --> 00:29:01.819
state. He is revered throughout Turkey. And he

00:29:01.819 --> 00:29:07.160
was setting up an example of how a Muslim state

00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.660
could become more westernized, more secular,

00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:17.759
more modern, and trying to put it as a peer of

00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:22.960
the imperial powers in Europe. Not only that,

00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.500
but he beat back the imperial powers. Oh, yes,

00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:26.900
he did. Because there's a whole story there,

00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:28.819
too, which is that we were talking earlier about

00:29:28.819 --> 00:29:30.759
the Ottoman Empire was... you know, broken up

00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:32.299
at the end of World War I because they lost the

00:29:32.299 --> 00:29:35.579
war. It actually continued until 1922. Yes, it

00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:38.740
did. Before it was finally officially abolished,

00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.519
the empire. But anyway, what happened at the

00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.180
end of the war was that each of the losing powers

00:29:44.180 --> 00:29:45.920
signed a treaty. So everybody's heard of the

00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:47.640
Versailles Treaty. That's the most famous one.

00:29:47.700 --> 00:29:49.160
That was the one that was signed with Germany

00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:51.299
and gets all the attention. But in fact, all

00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:53.079
the other losing countries also had their own

00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:55.359
separate treaty. The one for the Ottoman Empire

00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:58.200
was called the Treaty of Sevres. If I'm pronouncing

00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.700
that correctly. And it did a bunch of things

00:30:01.700 --> 00:30:04.660
to divide up the Ottoman Empire among the victorious

00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:07.019
powers, notably the British and the French. The

00:30:07.019 --> 00:30:10.160
Ottoman Empire degreed not to have claims anymore

00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.619
to places like Egypt and Sudan and the Aegean

00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:17.779
Islands and on and on and on. What it wound up

00:30:17.779 --> 00:30:20.779
doing, though, was taking the heart of Turkey,

00:30:21.019 --> 00:30:25.240
ethnic Turkey, which is, when you look on a map,

00:30:25.299 --> 00:30:27.759
you see the... what used to be called Asia Minor

00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:31.119
or Anatolia, that peninsula in between the Black

00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.099
Sea and the Mediterranean Sea is where Turkey

00:30:34.099 --> 00:30:38.480
is now. So they actually started dividing that

00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.700
up. They gave the northeastern part to the Armenians.

00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:44.259
They gave the Greeks a part of kind of a bite

00:30:44.259 --> 00:30:47.380
out of the western coast. Ionia. Ionia, which

00:30:47.380 --> 00:30:51.160
would be Greek territory. Part of the south wound

00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:54.420
up under the control of the French. In addition,

00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:57.640
we talked last episode about dividing Iran up

00:30:57.640 --> 00:30:59.200
into zones of influence between the Russians

00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.200
and the British and leaving very little in the

00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:03.720
middle for the Iranians to control. Same thing

00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.420
happened there where there was a part of Turkey

00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:10.519
which was under Turkish control, Ottoman control

00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:12.940
after the war, but most of it was divided up

00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:14.299
between the British, the French, the Greeks,

00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:17.799
the Armenians. Well, Ataturk, as he was going

00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:19.079
to be called later, he wasn't called that yet.

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.869
He was given that name in 1934. It means first

00:31:22.869 --> 00:31:26.250
Turk. Yes. Father of the Turks. He said this

00:31:26.250 --> 00:31:29.390
is completely unacceptable. No. The treaty was

00:31:29.390 --> 00:31:32.650
rejected. And he put the army together to fight

00:31:32.650 --> 00:31:34.150
back against all of this. And he actually wound

00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:37.750
up defeating the Greeks, the French, the Armenians,

00:31:37.750 --> 00:31:40.410
and established the borders of what we now consider

00:31:40.410 --> 00:31:42.390
to be the Republic of Turkey. But he actually

00:31:42.390 --> 00:31:44.930
threw off the imperial yoke, got rid of that

00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:47.950
treaty. So that treaty was canceled and validated,

00:31:48.109 --> 00:31:51.089
whatever. And in 1922, there was a different

00:31:51.089 --> 00:31:53.710
treaty, the Treaty of Lausanne. That treaty wound

00:31:53.710 --> 00:31:57.190
up establishing Turkey as we know it today. The

00:31:57.190 --> 00:32:00.750
empire was done away with in 1922, and the Republic

00:32:00.750 --> 00:32:04.410
of Turkey was proclaimed in 23, I think. Anyway,

00:32:04.509 --> 00:32:07.230
he did all of that. And he also came in, like

00:32:07.230 --> 00:32:09.970
you were saying, with an agenda of modernizing

00:32:09.970 --> 00:32:12.910
and secularizing the country, which was kind

00:32:12.910 --> 00:32:16.039
of oppressive. To some people. Yes. But also

00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:18.440
very successful in terms of building modern Turkey.

00:32:18.579 --> 00:32:21.220
So he's given a lot of credit for that. I was

00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:22.740
going to say, he's quite the hero. He's quite

00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:25.140
the hero. People do say, though, that he was

00:32:25.140 --> 00:32:28.640
oppressive toward minorities. The Kurds. The

00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.900
Kurds. The Armenians, too. Don't forget, the

00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:32.700
Armenians are not fond of what the Turks have

00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:36.750
done to them. mixed bag, but in Turkey he's the

00:32:36.750 --> 00:32:38.730
hero for creating modern Turkey. So you can see

00:32:38.730 --> 00:32:40.470
why he would be a role model for someone like

00:32:40.470 --> 00:32:42.549
Reza Shah, if that's the right word. Reza Shah

00:32:42.549 --> 00:32:46.309
would look over to Turkey and he would see this

00:32:46.309 --> 00:32:49.869
happening and I think he would be envious and

00:32:49.869 --> 00:32:54.170
desirous of duplicating these effects in his

00:32:54.170 --> 00:32:57.420
own country. I think he did look over there and

00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:01.279
see it as a model to follow. At the same time,

00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:04.940
like I said earlier, there were strains of this

00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:08.380
Persian nationalism thought that predated Reza

00:33:08.380 --> 00:33:12.480
Shah and were present within the Qajar dynasty,

00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:16.680
but never were able to really come together in

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.480
any meaningful way. So he looked at Ataturk as

00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:26.410
a success story. emulate. At the same time, some

00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:31.849
of Reza Shah's efforts predated Ataturk's, so

00:33:31.849 --> 00:33:36.509
that they really had a chance to kind of feed

00:33:36.509 --> 00:33:40.029
off of each other in some respects. I mean, Reza

00:33:40.029 --> 00:33:44.890
Shah was notorious for wanting to stay in Persia

00:33:44.890 --> 00:33:49.869
or... Iran as he renames it. But the two places

00:33:49.869 --> 00:33:54.829
that he visited during his entire period of administration

00:33:54.829 --> 00:34:02.369
of Persia slash Iran, one was Iraq, which is

00:34:02.369 --> 00:34:06.329
the next place over, and the other is Turkey.

00:34:06.470 --> 00:34:09.929
And there are loads of pictures of him in Ataturk.

00:34:10.510 --> 00:34:13.210
running around in their uniforms and bestowing

00:34:13.210 --> 00:34:15.369
courtesies on each other that came out of that

00:34:15.369 --> 00:34:38.409
state visit that he undertook in the 20s. So

00:34:38.409 --> 00:34:40.869
let's talk about some of the reforms that Reza

00:34:40.869 --> 00:34:44.030
Shah initiated. One of the most noticeable ones

00:34:44.030 --> 00:34:46.849
was that, like Ataturk, he eliminated traditional

00:34:46.849 --> 00:34:49.590
dress for all classes except for the clergy,

00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:52.110
and this was almost a compromise that the clergy

00:34:52.110 --> 00:34:56.360
demanded from him. By doing this, he is trying

00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.380
to reinitiate pride in traditional culture, but

00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:05.179
he's trying to also bring Persia, Iran into the

00:35:05.179 --> 00:35:08.860
modern world and to show that Persia is a modern

00:35:08.860 --> 00:35:13.360
country. Another thing that he's doing to reinvigorate...

00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.320
Pride in traditional Persian culture is promoting

00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.079
the excavation of the old ancient capital of

00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.559
Persepolis. This is something that's being done

00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:25.380
almost exclusively by Americans. American archaeologists

00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:29.139
are involved in this, and this is a telling point

00:35:29.139 --> 00:35:33.670
about how Americans were viewed by... Reza Shah,

00:35:33.869 --> 00:35:37.789
at least in the early stages of his rule there.

00:35:38.010 --> 00:35:40.630
He trusted Americans to do it, right? Yes, and

00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:42.670
he also felt like they weren't going to go in

00:35:42.670 --> 00:35:45.949
and be exploiting things. They would not be exploiting

00:35:45.949 --> 00:35:50.309
things. Stealing things, yes. But this is going

00:35:50.309 --> 00:35:53.340
to change. There will be some problems towards

00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:55.400
the end of that period. A lot is going to change.

00:35:55.460 --> 00:35:57.800
A lot is going to change. Yes, okay. Another

00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:02.320
thing, so we can finally stop referring to the

00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.880
place that he's ruling as Persia, and we can

00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.940
call it Iran because Iran is a term that he adopts.

00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:13.570
1935. In 1935. Yeah. So, Sharon, did you have

00:36:13.570 --> 00:36:16.869
some thoughts on this? Yeah. Iran is actually

00:36:16.869 --> 00:36:21.400
the old Persian for Iran. Arya meant Aryan, essentially

00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:25.300
the land of the Aryans or the land of the Iranians.

00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:28.119
And apparently these two names are really used

00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:30.800
interchangeably. Persia and Iran were used interchangeably.

00:36:30.860 --> 00:36:33.239
So, for example, Qajar, Iran was also called

00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.920
Qajar, Persia. But its official name was actually

00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.889
the Guarded Domains of Iran. And one of the ways

00:36:40.889 --> 00:36:45.590
that Reza Shah made this official was he sent

00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:48.650
out a circular, diplomatic circular, saying any

00:36:48.650 --> 00:36:51.909
letters or any approaches that are made to this

00:36:51.909 --> 00:36:54.449
particular country, you better refer to it as

00:36:54.449 --> 00:36:56.829
Iran because anything that says Persian on it

00:36:56.829 --> 00:36:59.869
is going to just be sent back. A little factoid

00:36:59.869 --> 00:37:03.349
there, too, is that the British oil company there

00:37:03.349 --> 00:37:05.849
was originally the Anglo -Persian oil company.

00:37:06.309 --> 00:37:08.510
But when he asked that, they changed it to Anglo

00:37:08.510 --> 00:37:11.090
-Iranian Oil Company. They actually listened

00:37:11.090 --> 00:37:13.730
to the local people for once. The British imperialists

00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:16.190
did. By the way, that later became British Petroleum.

00:37:16.610 --> 00:37:18.769
And now today, in a modified form, it's what

00:37:18.769 --> 00:37:20.869
we call BP. When you go to a BP station, you're

00:37:20.869 --> 00:37:25.730
buying gas from that company. Yes. Now, this

00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:28.730
did not always stick with everybody, particularly

00:37:28.730 --> 00:37:32.849
if we're talking British world. Churchill famously

00:37:32.849 --> 00:37:36.119
always referred to it as Persia. Apparently because

00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.659
he wanted to make sure in World War II there

00:37:37.659 --> 00:37:40.760
was no confusion between Iran and Iraq. Exactly.

00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.480
Among the uninformed. So he just used Persia

00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:44.840
so he wouldn't get the two confused. That's what

00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.260
I read. That's not a terrible idea. No, it's

00:37:47.260 --> 00:37:50.400
not. Interestingly, the other entity, the other

00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.199
enterprise within Britain that continued to use

00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:56.840
the term Persia was the Telegraph, which is the

00:37:56.840 --> 00:38:00.199
Tory newspaper. And they used the term Persia

00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:04.360
to refer to Iran all the way up to 1979. Tories

00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:06.480
are the conservatives. Yes, Tories are the conservatives.

00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:12.480
And the old line imperialist. And so they absolutely

00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.820
refused to change with regard to this until the

00:38:15.820 --> 00:38:18.079
revolution. I did not know that. Yes. That's

00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:20.800
fascinating. I just have an image of Churchill

00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.639
in World War II giving an order to invade Iran.

00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.019
And then he finds out they invaded Iraq by accident.

00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:31.079
No, no, you fools. Wrong country. Iran. One of

00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:34.989
my colleagues. Back in the day, working Iran,

00:38:35.269 --> 00:38:38.269
on his tagline, on his email, always said, Iran,

00:38:38.510 --> 00:38:44.690
it's the one on the right. There you go. So for

00:38:44.690 --> 00:38:48.730
other reforms, Reza Shah really pushed ahead

00:38:48.730 --> 00:38:54.219
regardless. Now, he was not. this great genius

00:38:54.219 --> 00:38:59.780
and great polymath, far from it, but he relied

00:38:59.780 --> 00:39:03.679
on outside experts to advise on various approaches,

00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:06.360
and we'll see which ones he did depending on

00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.340
the reform in question. It was never any single

00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:14.909
group. But he did tend to disfavor the Russians

00:39:14.909 --> 00:39:18.150
and the British when it came to asking for help

00:39:18.150 --> 00:39:21.409
with expertise just based on the whole experience

00:39:21.409 --> 00:39:25.389
from previous times there. No country is really

00:39:25.389 --> 00:39:27.809
allowed to gain any sort of overwhelming influence.

00:39:28.530 --> 00:39:32.590
And again, continental experts and trading partners

00:39:32.590 --> 00:39:35.630
are preferred to the British or to the Russians.

00:39:35.889 --> 00:39:39.030
The law code, for example, which was one of his...

00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:43.780
leading reforms. This is a mixture of French,

00:39:43.980 --> 00:39:47.500
Swiss, and Belgian jurisprudence combined with

00:39:47.500 --> 00:39:53.500
Shiite legal principles. They also imported two

00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:57.360
teams of foreign legal professors, eight each

00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.940
from Italy and France, to teach at Tehran University,

00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.599
which is something that Reza Shah also created.

00:40:03.670 --> 00:40:09.110
And this went on from like 1922 to 1939. Drafting

00:40:09.110 --> 00:40:10.989
of the legal code was a product of the Minister

00:40:10.989 --> 00:40:14.070
of Justice, who had been handpicked by Reza Shah,

00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:17.829
a guy named Ali Akbar Devar. And he was kind

00:40:17.829 --> 00:40:20.050
of a respected legal authority within Iran. But

00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:22.989
again, he's incorporating all of these outside

00:40:22.989 --> 00:40:26.730
principles to bring about reforms and modernizations

00:40:26.730 --> 00:40:29.289
within legal principles there. Was there a fundamental...

00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:34.039
legal culture that he was drawing upon uh you

00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:36.579
know i mean was it british american french french

00:40:36.579 --> 00:40:38.820
it was french french you know french okay now

00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:41.639
the thing is though and it's kind of like it's

00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:43.960
yes and no because the french legal culture we're

00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.800
talking about are the rights of the state There

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.880
was no rights of man because Reza Shah hated

00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:53.420
the idea of democracy, hated the modulus, and

00:40:53.420 --> 00:40:56.139
basically did everything he could to kind of

00:40:56.139 --> 00:40:59.559
maintain himself as the supreme autocrat. So

00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.360
the state had rights, but the people had none,

00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:08.559
essentially, under this particular period in

00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:13.519
time. We're used to, in our country, the Anglo

00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:16.460
-American... justice system, which is an adversarial

00:41:16.460 --> 00:41:18.920
one between a defendant and the state generally,

00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.260
right? Yes. But my understanding is under the

00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:23.280
continental system, the French system is what

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.139
that's based on. It's not that at all. It's basically

00:41:26.139 --> 00:41:28.980
your lawyer, the state's lawyer, everybody else,

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.679
the judge, are all trying to figure out if you're

00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:33.099
guilty or not. Yes. It's not adversarial. It's

00:41:33.099 --> 00:41:36.019
figuring out whether you're guilty. And you can

00:41:36.019 --> 00:41:37.500
mount a defense. Or proving you're guilty. But

00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:39.579
you don't have an adversarial relationship on

00:41:39.579 --> 00:41:41.440
your side against the other side. It's not done

00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:43.619
that way. It's like by consensus. Yeah, we've

00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.730
all thought about it. you know the guy's guilty

00:41:45.730 --> 00:41:47.650
yes very different from the way we do it and

00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:50.389
that's what he was modeling it on yeah and and

00:41:50.389 --> 00:41:53.389
again he strongly believed in this notion of

00:41:53.389 --> 00:41:56.650
the great man of history and that meant him most

00:41:56.679 --> 00:42:00.059
definitely when when and and this supported those

00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.960
notions those autocratic notions so it's convenient

00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:05.880
yes when you're an autocrat to decide that yeah

00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:10.099
and and so we also have the modulus only he could

00:42:10.099 --> 00:42:13.559
fix it Yeah, only he could fix it. Only he could

00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:17.360
fix it. I understand. Yes. Okay. So what these

00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.059
legal reforms did was they kind of turned the

00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:24.530
modulus into a... from an active parliament into

00:42:24.530 --> 00:42:29.349
a rubber stamp organization. Voting became very

00:42:29.349 --> 00:42:33.449
much an interesting, and I mean that in the best

00:42:33.449 --> 00:42:37.050
senses of the word, process. People could show

00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:40.170
up at the polls and find out that the polling

00:42:40.170 --> 00:42:44.429
official had decided to cast their vote in ways

00:42:44.429 --> 00:42:47.969
that he thought were advantageous to the regime.

00:42:49.630 --> 00:42:52.190
You would see them say, well, you've already

00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:55.369
voted. We decided to vote for you, and this is

00:42:55.369 --> 00:42:57.730
who you voted for and what you voted for. Sort

00:42:57.730 --> 00:43:00.530
of a proxy system. A proxy system. What I found

00:43:00.530 --> 00:43:02.210
interesting, too, by the way, when I was looking

00:43:02.210 --> 00:43:04.670
into this, is that at the time, and I think this

00:43:04.670 --> 00:43:07.769
might surprise people, at that time, the Islamic

00:43:07.769 --> 00:43:12.769
clergy actually was advocating an active parliament.

00:43:13.070 --> 00:43:16.469
Yes. A real voting and an active parliament,

00:43:16.510 --> 00:43:19.429
a real democratic approach to governing. The

00:43:19.429 --> 00:43:21.090
Islamic clergy was doing that. I think a lot

00:43:21.090 --> 00:43:23.670
of people would be surprised at that now. Yes,

00:43:23.829 --> 00:43:26.789
they were, to harken back to what we talked about

00:43:26.789 --> 00:43:29.789
in the last one, there was this important, in

00:43:29.789 --> 00:43:32.690
the reform tradition, you had the middle class,

00:43:32.869 --> 00:43:35.550
you had the intellectuals, and you had kind of

00:43:35.550 --> 00:43:38.010
the progressive clergy. They were all part of

00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:44.630
this effort to democratize and make, say, parliament

00:43:44.630 --> 00:43:48.769
become more of... a feature than just the the

00:43:48.769 --> 00:43:51.750
shah and what marshall said is important it was

00:43:51.750 --> 00:43:54.449
the the clergy wasn't a monolith but the progressive

00:43:54.449 --> 00:43:57.349
clergy yes did belong to that group there were

00:43:57.349 --> 00:43:59.909
some other clergy who thought differently they

00:43:59.909 --> 00:44:03.389
were conservative and and and they but i mean

00:44:03.389 --> 00:44:05.869
they they're not really having much of a place

00:44:05.869 --> 00:44:08.329
to go either they really aren't because because

00:44:08.329 --> 00:44:11.250
the conservative clergy all right you either

00:44:11.250 --> 00:44:14.679
are signed up to kind of democratic reforms,

00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:18.239
which they're not really big fans of. Or you've

00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:21.039
got Reza Shah, who is kind of like coming in

00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:23.860
with these sort of Western ideas that run counter

00:44:23.860 --> 00:44:26.179
to traditional values. And they weren't a fan

00:44:26.179 --> 00:44:29.559
of that either. Yes. So there wasn't yet a strong

00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:32.500
conservative Islamic political movement that

00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:34.239
they could tie themselves to in opposition to

00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:36.989
those other two possibilities, right? Certainly

00:44:36.989 --> 00:44:40.949
not something that was strong and an important

00:44:40.949 --> 00:44:45.309
movement that was out there as a third party.

00:44:45.449 --> 00:44:48.150
That would come later. That would come later.

00:44:48.210 --> 00:44:51.909
Yes, but not yet. And that did, just to foreshadow

00:44:51.909 --> 00:44:53.550
what we're going to see here, and I think we

00:44:53.550 --> 00:44:55.789
all know where this is headed, but it's like

00:44:55.789 --> 00:44:59.989
there was a tradition at the time that politics

00:44:59.989 --> 00:45:03.769
was a messy business and the clergy tended to...

00:45:03.980 --> 00:45:08.260
take a less active role as a whole within the

00:45:08.260 --> 00:45:12.650
political process? Yes and no. I mean, they certainly

00:45:12.650 --> 00:45:17.269
were active back during the constitutional revolution,

00:45:17.349 --> 00:45:21.710
and they were active during the tobacco protest.

00:45:22.429 --> 00:45:25.369
Maybe I should explain what I mean by this. It's

00:45:25.369 --> 00:45:30.110
kind of like them as being the government, the...

00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:32.719
Entire government, the clergy basically running

00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:37.139
the country, was not an idea that the conservative

00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:40.300
clergy or the progressive clergy wanted. Correct.

00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.780
There were factions, definitely, but they were

00:45:43.780 --> 00:45:46.840
not necessarily out for supreme power. Correct.

00:45:47.179 --> 00:45:49.880
And that is a change that happens under Khomeini.

00:45:50.019 --> 00:45:52.900
Yeah, that's later. That is later. But that is

00:45:52.900 --> 00:45:55.199
most definitely, even though you do have clergy

00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:58.360
who have... views about what's happening. They

00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:01.059
are not seeking, their solution is not to establish

00:46:01.059 --> 00:46:05.159
a clerical government. So that's something we

00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:08.260
need to just nail down for this particular period.

00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:12.500
So along with legal reforms, there are similar

00:46:12.500 --> 00:46:15.139
efforts also in education and transportation.

00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:18.639
Education was really where they had to do kind

00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:23.739
of a cold start because they really lacked internally

00:46:26.739 --> 00:46:30.440
educational, pedagogical authorities outside

00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:32.880
of, say, the religious sphere. So someone that's

00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:37.969
going to give a secular education to the people,

00:46:38.110 --> 00:46:41.210
you don't really have that. You have religious

00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:43.630
schools, of course, but you don't really have

00:46:43.630 --> 00:46:45.309
some place that's going to teach you geography

00:46:45.309 --> 00:46:49.429
or mathematics and things like that that you'd

00:46:49.429 --> 00:46:51.949
associate with a kind of secular educational

00:46:51.949 --> 00:46:57.400
system there. Education was pursued. They were

00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:59.719
attempting to establish universal enrollment

00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:03.039
in primary and secondary education. And with

00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.780
this, with the mandatory enrollment, this is

00:47:06.780 --> 00:47:09.940
probably more of an ambition than an accomplishment

00:47:09.940 --> 00:47:12.840
of Reza Shah. This was something they were always

00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:15.039
trying for, but they never actually achieved

00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:18.780
it. And the curriculum kind of took on a kind

00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:22.079
of nationalist, Persian -centric approach to

00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:26.539
things here. And really, by the end of Reza Shah's

00:47:26.539 --> 00:47:29.820
rule, it only reached about 10 % of the population,

00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:36.760
but it set things in motion. They were, like

00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.119
I said, doing a cold start from nothing, and

00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:44.079
so they were able to work up to 10%. When was

00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:48.019
the end of his rule? 1941, and we will talk about

00:47:48.019 --> 00:47:50.420
that later. And what he was really trying to

00:47:50.420 --> 00:47:55.019
do was not to create an educational system that

00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:59.619
would develop these creative thinkers. What he

00:47:59.619 --> 00:48:02.039
was trying to do was to create an educational

00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:05.280
system that would create good bureaucrats to

00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:10.280
run his state and good folks for his army, for

00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:13.920
his military. What about technocrats? Yes, absolutely.

00:48:14.179 --> 00:48:17.579
Yeah. But not people who would be inventive thinkers.

00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:19.820
No, we're not looking at people who are going

00:48:19.820 --> 00:48:22.199
to be like, we're not seeing a lot of money being

00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.280
plowed into like the literature or the philosophy

00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:43.309
departments. So the big obstacle to realizing

00:48:43.309 --> 00:48:45.929
these educational reforms was the creation of

00:48:45.929 --> 00:48:48.969
teachers. And the way that teachers were being

00:48:48.969 --> 00:48:51.050
created was to send them abroad because there

00:48:51.050 --> 00:48:53.530
was no infrastructure to create teachers within

00:48:53.530 --> 00:48:57.969
Iran at this point. Beginning in 1928, Each year,

00:48:58.050 --> 00:49:01.230
100 top -ranked students were sent abroad to

00:49:01.230 --> 00:49:03.969
Europe to study, majority ending up, guess where,

00:49:04.130 --> 00:49:07.610
France. But studying was also possible in Germany

00:49:07.610 --> 00:49:10.449
and even in England. And in return for these

00:49:10.449 --> 00:49:12.630
opportunities, students had an obligation to

00:49:12.630 --> 00:49:16.309
serve the state. This, a form of this practice,

00:49:16.449 --> 00:49:20.250
I was still seeing in the 70s with other people

00:49:20.250 --> 00:49:22.710
who were being sent abroad to study that I knew

00:49:22.710 --> 00:49:27.130
back in the day there. So this practice continued

00:49:27.130 --> 00:49:30.650
and expanded beyond just Reza Shah's period.

00:49:31.409 --> 00:49:34.510
Women were also affected, but probably not in

00:49:34.510 --> 00:49:36.929
the way that they intended. And I think you've

00:49:36.929 --> 00:49:39.449
got some thoughts on that, Sharon. Yes. So part

00:49:39.449 --> 00:49:42.630
of what happened during this time was the dress

00:49:42.630 --> 00:49:46.190
modernization. And what we mean by that was that

00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:50.460
Reza Shah decided to... To be modern, you needed

00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:53.920
to dress modern, and that meant not wearing,

00:49:53.940 --> 00:49:59.019
for women, the hijab, the Islamic covering. So

00:49:59.019 --> 00:50:01.260
you wouldn't wear the head covering. You would

00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:05.940
wear a modern Western dress. So women would go

00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:10.980
about without a head covering and wearing. At

00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:14.440
the time, that would probably be a shortish dress,

00:50:14.539 --> 00:50:18.570
short meaning maybe down to, past their knees,

00:50:18.829 --> 00:50:21.889
maybe a little bit longer, depending upon the

00:50:21.889 --> 00:50:25.349
time period. But that would be very exposed for

00:50:25.349 --> 00:50:27.929
these women who are used to being completely

00:50:27.929 --> 00:50:32.309
covered up. And this was really horrifying to

00:50:32.309 --> 00:50:36.050
them. So particularly for the parents and girls

00:50:36.050 --> 00:50:41.389
who were not... used to being uncovered. So the

00:50:41.389 --> 00:50:44.530
girls were really not sent to these schools.

00:50:44.690 --> 00:50:48.590
They were kept at home. And it just wasn't the

00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:51.469
girls. This force unveiling was traumatic for

00:50:51.469 --> 00:50:54.010
the more traditional women across the country.

00:50:54.190 --> 00:50:56.949
It essentially made some of these women homebound

00:50:56.949 --> 00:51:00.190
as they refused to go out and about unveiled.

00:51:02.030 --> 00:51:05.570
Fast forward a few decades, the compulsory veiling

00:51:05.570 --> 00:51:10.010
after the revolution did increase education for

00:51:10.010 --> 00:51:13.010
women as their families had fewer objections

00:51:13.010 --> 00:51:17.510
to them. going out into mixed gendered settings

00:51:17.510 --> 00:51:21.670
but this was still the state imposing its will

00:51:21.670 --> 00:51:25.110
on the bodies of women rather than women being

00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:27.929
able to choose for themselves what they wanted

00:51:27.929 --> 00:51:30.730
to do with their own bodies the way i've heard

00:51:30.730 --> 00:51:32.329
it described too and i think this is kind of

00:51:32.329 --> 00:51:34.429
interesting is to try to make to help westerners

00:51:34.429 --> 00:51:36.309
understand how they felt about the head covering

00:51:36.309 --> 00:51:38.670
right is people saying, what's the big deal about

00:51:38.670 --> 00:51:41.190
having your head exposed if you're female? What's

00:51:41.190 --> 00:51:42.670
so big about that? Westerners are saying it.

00:51:42.769 --> 00:51:43.809
And they said, well, you have to think about

00:51:43.809 --> 00:51:45.349
it like, what if the government ordered you to

00:51:45.349 --> 00:51:48.119
go around topless everywhere you went? it's not

00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.619
that different. In other words, they were so

00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:51.599
used to, yeah, your head should be covered, that

00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:53.199
it's not that different from going out, for a

00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:55.159
Western woman going out, say, topless, especially

00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:56.860
because the government ordered you to. Maybe

00:51:56.860 --> 00:52:00.159
you'd stay home, you know, like that. It's a

00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.820
good analogy, I think, if you think so, too,

00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:04.780
of how they felt about it. Yeah, and they're

00:52:04.780 --> 00:52:07.699
not the only religion to do this. I mean, in

00:52:07.699 --> 00:52:11.800
Orthodox Jewish religion, they do this. In certain

00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:14.239
Christian religions, you do this. You'll see

00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:19.050
a lot of nuns, do this. So it's really not that

00:52:19.050 --> 00:52:21.389
unusual. The British royal family, women always

00:52:21.389 --> 00:52:25.130
have to wear headgear. Yeah, that's true. I hadn't

00:52:25.130 --> 00:52:27.369
thought about that, but that's true. You can

00:52:27.369 --> 00:52:29.969
see their hair, but they are always having to

00:52:29.969 --> 00:52:34.030
wear a hat. Yeah. I think it's really interesting

00:52:34.030 --> 00:52:38.449
that right now in Iran, and this might be...

00:52:38.670 --> 00:52:42.869
temporary as things are really in a state of

00:52:42.869 --> 00:52:46.010
flux. They've gone through a lot of protests

00:52:46.010 --> 00:52:51.090
and we have the war right now. But the government

00:52:51.090 --> 00:52:54.309
at this moment right now is choosing not to.

00:52:54.349 --> 00:52:56.909
to enforce women wearing the hijab, at least

00:52:56.909 --> 00:52:59.829
in the larger cities. And I find this really

00:52:59.829 --> 00:53:02.670
fascinating. So in some of the larger cities,

00:53:02.809 --> 00:53:05.349
you'll see women going about not only without

00:53:05.349 --> 00:53:09.389
a veil, but with bare arms, bare legs, and even

00:53:09.389 --> 00:53:13.269
some bare stomachs, which is just fascinating

00:53:13.269 --> 00:53:17.889
and amazing and completely unheard of as opposed

00:53:17.889 --> 00:53:23.949
to a few years ago. Another reform. along with

00:53:23.949 --> 00:53:28.090
education and along with modern dress, transportation.

00:53:28.909 --> 00:53:33.170
And transportation was really an area where Iran

00:53:33.170 --> 00:53:35.909
had lagged behind, and this contributed to the

00:53:35.909 --> 00:53:38.170
impact of the famine during the First World War.

00:53:38.650 --> 00:53:43.489
So one of the signature programs that was created

00:53:43.489 --> 00:53:49.219
was the Trans -Iranian Railroad. This was finished

00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:53.579
in 1938, just in time for World War II, where

00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:57.280
it's going to play a huge role. And it ran from

00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.460
the Caspian Sea to southern Iran. This was an

00:54:00.460 --> 00:54:03.400
area where the Iranians certainly lacked expertise,

00:54:03.500 --> 00:54:07.519
and they relied on a Danish company, Capsax,

00:54:07.659 --> 00:54:11.199
to supply this expertise and to help. build it.

00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:14.679
And just to explain for people not familiar with

00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:17.800
geography, Iran does not have the easiest geography

00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:22.079
in the world here. There's desert, there's mountains.

00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:26.500
This is not an easy place to build a railroad

00:54:26.500 --> 00:54:30.480
through. This is not something that they could

00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:34.019
just sit down and draw a line and say, here's

00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:37.139
where we're going to build it. It was a very

00:54:37.139 --> 00:54:40.300
difficult undertaking and kind of, if we're going

00:54:40.300 --> 00:54:43.099
to give Razor Shaw credit for anything, building

00:54:43.099 --> 00:54:49.090
a railroad that transversed Iran is probably

00:54:49.090 --> 00:54:52.110
one of the better achievements of his administration

00:54:52.110 --> 00:54:56.260
there. Roads are also another thing that were

00:54:56.260 --> 00:55:00.679
emphasized. In 1929, there were about 4 ,000

00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:07.460
kilometers of roads. And by 1941, 22 ,400 was

00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:09.840
the figure. And for the metrically impaired,

00:55:10.119 --> 00:55:13.300
4 ,000 kilometers is 2 ,500 miles, about, give

00:55:13.300 --> 00:55:16.360
or take. And so by 1941, that expanded that to

00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:19.059
almost 14 ,000 miles. So that's a significant

00:55:19.059 --> 00:55:22.420
growth in infrastructure there. This was also

00:55:22.420 --> 00:55:25.059
overseen by a newly created ministry of roads

00:55:25.059 --> 00:55:28.900
and transportation. And then there's also similar

00:55:28.900 --> 00:55:31.659
efforts that are undertaken for the ports in

00:55:31.659 --> 00:55:33.380
both the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Sea to

00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:35.900
promote international trade. And the railroad

00:55:35.900 --> 00:55:38.780
connected these ports, I assume. Yes. So this

00:55:38.780 --> 00:55:41.300
is all about linking up these areas that had

00:55:41.300 --> 00:55:44.760
been kind of isolated from each other due to

00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:46.679
the sort of primitive nature of transportation

00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:49.320
there. These are all being funded internally.

00:55:50.309 --> 00:55:55.670
And they're not looking abroad to borrow money

00:55:55.670 --> 00:56:00.730
to fund them. They are actually imposing a series

00:56:00.730 --> 00:56:04.789
of very unpopular taxes on tea and sugar. And

00:56:04.789 --> 00:56:08.550
tea and sugar are kind of staples of kind of

00:56:08.550 --> 00:56:11.190
not just the Iranian diet, but also the social

00:56:11.190 --> 00:56:14.769
fabric for people. You know, sitting down and

00:56:14.769 --> 00:56:18.429
having tea is kind of a big thing over in Iran.

00:56:19.659 --> 00:56:23.380
These expenditures are dwarfed by what Reza Shah

00:56:23.380 --> 00:56:26.900
opted to spend most of his money on. And this

00:56:26.900 --> 00:56:29.920
is roughly 30 % consistently during his reign

00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:34.559
here. And this was on the military. And this

00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:37.880
money is poorly spent. So let's talk about what

00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:40.659
he's spending it on. He's buying aircraft. He's

00:56:40.659 --> 00:56:43.099
buying from Great Britain and gunboats and destroyers

00:56:43.099 --> 00:56:46.119
from Italy, tanks from Czechoslovakia, munitions

00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:48.880
from Germany, Sweden, and also Czechoslovakia.

00:56:49.969 --> 00:56:53.050
Now, this would be great if there was a program

00:56:53.050 --> 00:56:56.489
to kind of integrate these platforms into the

00:56:56.489 --> 00:56:58.650
Iranian military. I was going to say, those are

00:56:58.650 --> 00:57:00.269
good sources for the kinds of things they're

00:57:00.269 --> 00:57:02.050
buying. Yes, they're buying. So that's a smart

00:57:02.050 --> 00:57:03.750
choice to buy it from those places. Yes, but

00:57:03.750 --> 00:57:07.510
it's not just a matter of you don't get pilots

00:57:07.510 --> 00:57:10.250
with that. You don't get people to operate them.

00:57:10.329 --> 00:57:13.409
And you're also buying these from very different

00:57:13.409 --> 00:57:17.369
countries. all over the place. So it's very ineffective

00:57:17.369 --> 00:57:20.710
in terms of incorporating Western equipment into

00:57:20.710 --> 00:57:22.590
the military. They don't have a good training

00:57:22.590 --> 00:57:27.570
program. And in terms of being able to do logistics

00:57:27.570 --> 00:57:31.449
on the equipment, logistics is a nightmare because

00:57:31.449 --> 00:57:33.409
there are slide chains coming all the way from

00:57:33.409 --> 00:57:36.190
Europe. They do not have the capacity to be able

00:57:36.190 --> 00:57:40.230
to generate spare parts on their own. And the

00:57:40.230 --> 00:57:42.630
military had very little understanding of how

00:57:42.630 --> 00:57:49.239
to... integrate this equipment into any strategy

00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:53.079
they would have for the defense of the country

00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:55.480
there. And things like maintenance even can be

00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:57.559
very difficult. Yes. Because if you're a very

00:57:57.559 --> 00:58:00.559
rural, non -technical kind of country, as Iran

00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:06.159
was at this time, you just don't have... a body

00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:09.219
of the citizenry which is mechanically inclined.

00:58:09.500 --> 00:58:11.480
No, you do not. Growing up fixing the family

00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:14.199
car or something or working in a garage or whatever.

00:58:14.300 --> 00:58:16.119
You just didn't have that very much. And that

00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:18.159
always makes it very difficult for a country

00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:20.099
like that to just keep the equipment running.

00:58:35.179 --> 00:58:39.539
So Sharon, some of these attempts that Reza Shah

00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:43.420
is making here back in the 20s and 30s, do we

00:58:43.420 --> 00:58:47.099
see any modern echoes of that in today's Iranian

00:58:47.099 --> 00:58:52.179
military? Absolutely, particularly after 1979

00:58:52.179 --> 00:58:57.139
and the revolution and the Iranian takeover of

00:58:57.139 --> 00:59:00.460
the U .S. embassy and all the series of sanctions

00:59:00.460 --> 00:59:05.150
that the U .S. has. put on iran over the years

00:59:05.150 --> 00:59:08.590
up to the present day it's put enormous economic

00:59:08.590 --> 00:59:12.269
pain on iran and so they've had to find ways

00:59:12.269 --> 00:59:16.230
of being self -sufficient in their military and

00:59:16.230 --> 00:59:19.289
they've managed to do that and have a military

00:59:19.289 --> 00:59:22.170
that still functions despite all of this economic

00:59:22.170 --> 00:59:25.869
pain and even in some ways thrive when you look

00:59:25.869 --> 00:59:30.840
at what they are doing and providing some fairly

00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:34.460
sophisticated equipment to Russia for Russia

00:59:34.460 --> 00:59:38.300
to fight in its war with Ukraine. However, it

00:59:38.300 --> 00:59:41.920
would be kind of back in those days, in the time

00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:44.000
of Reza Shah, we hadn't gotten to that point

00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:47.119
yet. It was still more aspirational than anything.

00:59:47.619 --> 00:59:53.039
Yes. As far as the military, though, under Reza

00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.949
Shah. this sort of self -sufficiency was still

00:59:56.949 --> 00:59:59.250
very much an aspiration as opposed to something

00:59:59.250 --> 01:00:01.829
they were able to achieve. Correct. And this

01:00:01.829 --> 01:00:04.809
isn't atypical for a military that is at this

01:00:04.809 --> 01:00:07.550
stage in its development. And let's look at the

01:00:07.550 --> 01:00:12.309
military writ large here with that. So it was

01:00:12.309 --> 01:00:16.989
modeled on, guess what, a French model in terms

01:00:16.989 --> 01:00:19.599
of how the command structure was set up. And

01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:22.280
this is kind of interesting because the structure

01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:24.500
is French, but none of the equipment is actually

01:00:24.500 --> 01:00:28.960
French. And just to draw that point out, if you

01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:32.400
buy a hodgepodge of equipment from other countries

01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:34.880
and try to use them in a system designed by yet

01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:38.159
a different country, it can be done. But the

01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:40.840
problem you face is that the equipment was designed

01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:43.300
to do something for another country in their

01:00:43.300 --> 01:00:46.639
system. You need to now adapt the use of that

01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:49.969
equipment to a different. a different way of

01:00:49.969 --> 01:00:51.989
operating it, which it may not have been really

01:00:51.989 --> 01:00:55.690
well designed for. So it can work, but it's another

01:00:55.690 --> 01:00:57.510
hurdle you have to get past to be effective.

01:00:57.510 --> 01:01:00.889
Well, and there are a lot of hurdles. So there

01:01:00.889 --> 01:01:04.940
is a general staff. that does exist with this

01:01:04.940 --> 01:01:06.980
organization. And that does the planning for

01:01:06.980 --> 01:01:08.880
the military. That does the planning. However,

01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:11.860
even though there is a general staff, there is

01:01:11.860 --> 01:01:16.380
no, the military remains under the direct control

01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:19.420
of Reza Shah. So he's actually the one calling

01:01:19.420 --> 01:01:22.369
the shots in terms of... anything that's happening.

01:01:22.650 --> 01:01:25.550
He's commander -in -chief. He is definitely commander

01:01:25.550 --> 01:01:30.050
-in -chief, double caps there. And so it's not

01:01:30.050 --> 01:01:32.929
really effective as an organization. So there's

01:01:32.929 --> 01:01:35.610
no single overarching strategy to defend the

01:01:35.610 --> 01:01:38.489
country, at least as far as what I could discover.

01:01:38.869 --> 01:01:41.530
There's no concept of joint force employment,

01:01:41.869 --> 01:01:45.030
meaning the military branches operate strictly

01:01:45.030 --> 01:01:48.889
in isolation. So the Air Force, the Army, and

01:01:48.889 --> 01:01:50.909
the Navy all operate without... consulting with

01:01:50.909 --> 01:01:53.530
one another. Exactly. So any planning they would

01:01:53.530 --> 01:01:56.429
do, they would be made in a vacuum. And this

01:01:56.429 --> 01:02:00.369
is kind of counterproductive because if they're

01:02:00.369 --> 01:02:03.829
not working together, then they're not necessarily

01:02:03.829 --> 01:02:08.190
being used effectively. This is something that,

01:02:08.210 --> 01:02:11.010
you know, why there is a joint force employment

01:02:11.010 --> 01:02:14.269
doctrine, why that exists in the first place.

01:02:14.849 --> 01:02:19.659
I'm just going to go off. Maybe this runs counter

01:02:19.659 --> 01:02:22.880
to what some people would expect to raise a Shah.

01:02:23.179 --> 01:02:26.800
But he has a military background. And he did

01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:29.059
like wearing his uniforms. He did like wearing

01:02:29.059 --> 01:02:31.159
his decorations. He did like wearing his jackboots.

01:02:31.539 --> 01:02:35.679
But he did not have the slightest clue about

01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:39.699
macro how militaries worked, even though this

01:02:39.699 --> 01:02:42.380
was very much part of it. He was very much, say,

01:02:42.619 --> 01:02:47.449
an 03. an 04. He didn't really have the kind

01:02:47.449 --> 01:02:51.230
of broad strategic vision or appreciation that

01:02:51.230 --> 01:02:54.429
would be necessary to devise a viable strategy

01:02:54.429 --> 01:02:56.469
to defend the country and make the military that

01:02:56.469 --> 01:03:00.630
he's spending one -third of the entire budget

01:03:00.630 --> 01:03:04.869
of the country on to sustain. So Marshall is

01:03:04.869 --> 01:03:08.050
referring to U .S. military officer grades. So

01:03:08.050 --> 01:03:10.489
for those not familiar with an 03 and 04, that

01:03:10.489 --> 01:03:12.190
would be in the Army, the Air Force, Marine Corps,

01:03:12.250 --> 01:03:15.949
that's a captain or a major. which is a fairly

01:03:15.949 --> 01:03:18.309
junior officer in the military. They're not junior

01:03:18.309 --> 01:03:20.110
officers, but they're still fairly junior. Mid

01:03:20.110 --> 01:03:23.570
-range. They're mid -range officers. Or a lieutenant

01:03:23.570 --> 01:03:26.489
commander in the Navy, which, again, are mid

01:03:26.489 --> 01:03:29.570
-range officers. And so, Marshall, the point

01:03:29.570 --> 01:03:32.409
you're making is he was good at that. But the

01:03:32.409 --> 01:03:34.190
reason you have to make general before you get

01:03:34.190 --> 01:03:35.949
to be a big strategist or the leader of a whole

01:03:35.949 --> 01:03:37.550
large military force is you have to learn a lot

01:03:37.550 --> 01:03:39.670
more than you do just at those levels. That's

01:03:39.670 --> 01:03:41.449
where the military progression is designed. You're

01:03:41.449 --> 01:03:44.590
kind of dealing with the military as it would

01:03:44.590 --> 01:03:47.809
function on the parade field or how it might

01:03:47.809 --> 01:03:51.409
look, but how the actual nuts and bolts that

01:03:51.409 --> 01:03:54.409
make that possible and make the military capable

01:03:54.409 --> 01:03:57.789
of functioning well. We don't have that here.

01:03:57.909 --> 01:04:00.369
What you do if you're a commander of 200 people

01:04:00.369 --> 01:04:03.329
or 500 people is not the same thing as if you

01:04:03.329 --> 01:04:06.719
run an entire military. You have different responsibilities,

01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:09.800
different experiences. What kinds of uses for

01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:12.599
the military were happening at this time? I mean,

01:04:12.639 --> 01:04:15.639
were there engagements that were happening? Not

01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:19.280
yet. Not yet. We're going to have a fairly significant

01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:24.239
engagement in 1941. Well, he was doing a lot

01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:27.989
of... internal activity with the military in

01:04:27.989 --> 01:04:30.690
trying to consolidate power and putting down

01:04:30.690 --> 01:04:36.789
the tribes and consolidating all of that power.

01:04:36.969 --> 01:04:39.409
So it was a lot of internal work. Yeah, but not

01:04:39.409 --> 01:04:43.449
against an adversary. Right. Were they shooting

01:04:43.449 --> 01:04:46.349
at minorities or just oppressing them with...

01:04:46.869 --> 01:04:50.389
By intimidating them? I don't actually know.

01:04:50.449 --> 01:04:52.670
I assume that in some cases they were having

01:04:52.670 --> 01:04:54.889
to shoot at them because that is the way you

01:04:54.889 --> 01:04:56.130
demonstrate. But there wasn't a major conflict

01:04:56.130 --> 01:04:58.550
going on at the time within the country among

01:04:58.550 --> 01:05:01.389
military conflict. It wasn't like big force on

01:05:01.389 --> 01:05:04.789
force kinds of things. I'm sure that they were

01:05:04.789 --> 01:05:08.690
killing people. The seeds of the conflict basically

01:05:08.690 --> 01:05:11.500
involved nomadic people. Who they were trying

01:05:11.500 --> 01:05:15.119
to make non -nomadic. Yes, to become, you know,

01:05:15.139 --> 01:05:18.000
practicers of settled architecture, agriculture

01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:23.500
rather. Yes. And that was, again, part of this

01:05:23.500 --> 01:05:26.920
whole vision for modernity. Absolutely. And so,

01:05:26.940 --> 01:05:31.019
yes, but let's just think about this for a moment.

01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:33.929
Okay, you're spending one... third of your budget

01:05:33.929 --> 01:05:37.110
to basically go in and try to make nomads not

01:05:37.110 --> 01:05:40.409
be nomads anymore that is that is kind of that's

01:05:40.409 --> 01:05:43.110
not really an effective use of resources and

01:05:43.110 --> 01:05:45.409
i would have to say that i'm not i'm not saying

01:05:45.409 --> 01:05:46.929
it was an effective use of resources i'd have

01:05:46.929 --> 01:05:49.510
to say though that in in a lot of countries though

01:05:49.510 --> 01:05:53.190
the the military by having a a strong or at least

01:05:53.190 --> 01:05:55.130
perceived to be strong military as a central

01:05:55.130 --> 01:05:58.780
part of your of your state structure It does

01:05:58.780 --> 01:06:01.900
provide kind of an anchor point for a country,

01:06:02.099 --> 01:06:05.199
for a state. It's like an institution which is

01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:10.460
powerful and is responsive to the state. And

01:06:10.460 --> 01:06:12.219
it has kind of, even if it's never used actually

01:06:12.219 --> 01:06:15.619
in combat, it still has an important political

01:06:15.969 --> 01:06:18.469
and cultural role in the country, which can be

01:06:18.469 --> 01:06:23.719
either unifying or dominating over. Or stabilizing,

01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:25.760
even. Or stabilizing, just by its mere existence.

01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:27.980
So, I mean, I guess you'd have to say that there's

01:06:27.980 --> 01:06:31.099
that role, too, for it, I assume. Well, if you

01:06:31.099 --> 01:06:35.599
look at what Reza Shah saw were these countries,

01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:39.360
most particularly British and the Russians, coming

01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:43.239
in, these big countries with big armies who were

01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:47.780
Western, modern. Those were his models. And then

01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:51.730
he had another model of... turkey without a turk

01:06:51.730 --> 01:06:57.030
and um so what he and he saw the the british

01:06:57.030 --> 01:07:00.190
and the russians who were very close to basically

01:07:00.190 --> 01:07:03.710
tearing the country apart yes and what he really

01:07:03.710 --> 01:07:07.849
wanted to do was to make sure that that didn't

01:07:07.849 --> 01:07:10.789
happen and so he was like in order for that not

01:07:10.789 --> 01:07:13.289
to happen I have to make sure that my country

01:07:13.289 --> 01:07:17.050
is like them so that's what he did he set up

01:07:17.050 --> 01:07:19.630
a country that was highly centralized with an

01:07:19.630 --> 01:07:22.369
army that functioned like theirs to the extent

01:07:22.369 --> 01:07:26.530
that he could um in a centralized state supported

01:07:26.530 --> 01:07:30.809
by a population that was educated to become these

01:07:30.809 --> 01:07:34.130
efficient army officers and bureaucrats who were

01:07:34.130 --> 01:07:38.269
dressing like them who they were trying to settle

01:07:38.269 --> 01:07:42.510
the population to be like this western population

01:07:42.510 --> 01:07:47.610
so that's what he was trying to accomplish with

01:07:47.610 --> 01:07:54.630
with this big that was not particularly efficient,

01:07:54.809 --> 01:07:58.250
as you say. But that was the model that he was

01:07:58.250 --> 01:08:01.769
copying. Well, the military had certain internal

01:08:01.769 --> 01:08:05.360
problems. that we might want to discuss. If I

01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:07.619
were going to make a comparison with any military,

01:08:07.900 --> 01:08:11.639
I would say it was kind of like the last days

01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:16.220
of the Soviet military, which was riven by corruption

01:08:16.220 --> 01:08:22.020
and maltreatment of conscripts. So there's a

01:08:22.020 --> 01:08:24.300
lot of money that's going in, but there's also

01:08:24.300 --> 01:08:26.180
a lot of money that's coming out, and it's not

01:08:26.180 --> 01:08:29.020
necessarily being applied to anything other than

01:08:29.020 --> 01:08:33.670
the well -being of leaders. within the military

01:08:33.670 --> 01:08:36.289
itself. And then to talk about the people who

01:08:36.289 --> 01:08:39.729
succeeded, these are people who are displaying

01:08:39.729 --> 01:08:43.489
personal loyalty to Reza Shah. That is what he

01:08:43.489 --> 01:08:46.029
is. He is not looking for creative thinkers.

01:08:46.130 --> 01:08:50.050
He's not looking for military minds that are

01:08:50.050 --> 01:08:53.430
going to actually come in and lead reforms. He

01:08:53.430 --> 01:08:55.250
is looking for people that are going to basically,

01:08:55.470 --> 01:09:00.630
you know... support him and believe him to be

01:09:00.630 --> 01:09:03.770
like the overall overall arching intelligence

01:09:03.770 --> 01:09:07.720
of the country as a whole here. That sounds very

01:09:07.720 --> 01:09:10.460
familiar. It sounds very familiar, and kind of

01:09:10.460 --> 01:09:13.699
it doesn't work out to your best advantage when

01:09:13.699 --> 01:09:19.119
you do this, because even the greatest strategist

01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:22.199
or tactician is going to have an off day, and

01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:24.680
it might be good to have some guy say, oh, sir,

01:09:24.819 --> 01:09:27.260
do you really want to do this? And this is what

01:09:27.260 --> 01:09:29.439
the consequences might be. Well, it fits with

01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:31.220
your observation that the general staff was not

01:09:31.220 --> 01:09:33.460
effective. No, it wasn't. You're relying on Raisa

01:09:33.460 --> 01:09:35.939
Shah through his... magnificent brain power to

01:09:35.939 --> 01:09:37.460
always have the right decision without asking

01:09:37.460 --> 01:09:40.180
anybody else. And there aren't very many human

01:09:40.180 --> 01:09:41.939
beings on Earth who are actually like that, whether

01:09:41.939 --> 01:09:45.750
they think they are or not. So, yeah, you back

01:09:45.750 --> 01:09:49.930
yourself into a corner. And we will see how this

01:09:49.930 --> 01:09:54.369
plays out over the course of time here. I mean,

01:09:54.390 --> 01:09:57.130
I think you need to say that, in Reza Shah's

01:09:57.130 --> 01:09:58.729
mind, though, if you're going to be a great...

01:09:58.930 --> 01:10:01.289
country alongside countries like the british

01:10:01.289 --> 01:10:03.149
like the russians like anybody else he looks

01:10:03.149 --> 01:10:05.310
at you have to have a big military like that

01:10:05.310 --> 01:10:08.310
that's how he perceived it so i'm sure part of

01:10:08.310 --> 01:10:09.949
it was just that it wasn't necessarily the effectiveness

01:10:09.949 --> 01:10:11.930
of military but the mere possession the existence

01:10:11.930 --> 01:10:15.010
of it the appearance of it mattered a lot in

01:10:15.010 --> 01:10:17.270
terms of making iran look like it's a great country

01:10:17.270 --> 01:10:19.829
like he wants it to be and he had watched as

01:10:19.829 --> 01:10:24.470
you had said earlier all these other parts of

01:10:24.470 --> 01:10:27.250
the middle east get divided up And he really

01:10:27.250 --> 01:10:30.069
didn't want that to happen, have that happen

01:10:30.069 --> 01:10:33.989
to Iran. And it happened to Iran. Right. Recently.

01:10:34.250 --> 01:10:36.289
Fairly recently when he came to power. And it

01:10:36.289 --> 01:10:39.189
will happen to Iran, as we will see. As we will

01:10:39.189 --> 01:10:43.960
see. One observation I think we might want to

01:10:43.960 --> 01:10:47.439
make here is the difference between, we talked

01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:51.420
about Ataturk as being kind of the model. And

01:10:51.420 --> 01:10:55.250
I'm going to say that Ataturk was... ultimately

01:10:55.250 --> 01:10:59.409
more successful than Reza Shah. And I mean, you

01:10:59.409 --> 01:11:01.229
look at Iran, you look at Turkey. I mean, Turkey

01:11:01.229 --> 01:11:04.250
has its problems, but it's not a pariah nation.

01:11:04.430 --> 01:11:07.869
It's not outside of the national order, international

01:11:07.869 --> 01:11:11.090
order. It does not have crazy people trying to

01:11:11.090 --> 01:11:13.970
invade it and install incompetent monarchs on

01:11:13.970 --> 01:11:19.430
its population over and over again. So what goes

01:11:19.430 --> 01:11:23.729
wrong? And I'm going to basically say that What

01:11:23.729 --> 01:11:27.170
Ataturk did was Ataturk in Turkey created institutions

01:11:27.170 --> 01:11:31.090
and Reza Shah created Reza Shah. That was the

01:11:31.090 --> 01:11:34.510
institution that Reza Shah created. And when

01:11:34.510 --> 01:11:37.430
you have kind of a one -man rule like that, an

01:11:37.430 --> 01:11:40.010
autocratic rule, you're really only one heartbeat

01:11:40.010 --> 01:11:43.869
away from chaos when you choose to operate in

01:11:43.869 --> 01:11:46.390
that fashion. Ataturk's government was a dictatorship.

01:11:46.550 --> 01:11:49.970
Yes. But he was creating something that would

01:11:49.970 --> 01:11:54.069
outlast him. Yes. Reza Shah was not. No. No,

01:11:54.130 --> 01:11:56.510
Razor Shaw did not do that. I'm going to push

01:11:56.510 --> 01:12:00.409
back just a little bit. Okay. In that the institutions

01:12:00.409 --> 01:12:06.449
did carry on to a son, but there were definitely

01:12:06.449 --> 01:12:09.689
fatal flaws embedded with those institutions.

01:12:09.689 --> 01:12:12.029
You still needed a strong man to run that. Yes.

01:12:12.149 --> 01:12:14.989
And that's probably the difference. And that

01:12:14.989 --> 01:12:18.449
is kind of, you kind of have to have somebody

01:12:18.449 --> 01:12:23.640
setting himself up as Razor Shaw. Yes. As a Superman

01:12:23.640 --> 01:12:25.859
or the Supreme Autocrat or whatever you want

01:12:25.859 --> 01:12:28.899
to call him, to make these things work. Yeah.

01:12:29.060 --> 01:12:32.539
They weren't fully functional in and of themselves.

01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:34.979
They were incapable of independent operation.

01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:39.180
And again, when we look at what happens with

01:12:39.180 --> 01:12:43.840
the Shah here, there are the same institutional

01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:46.579
problems that existed. That's a good way of clarifying.

01:12:46.859 --> 01:12:49.949
And what does the term Shah mean? Shah simply

01:12:49.949 --> 01:12:54.010
is the Persian term for king. So last week when

01:12:54.010 --> 01:12:57.689
I read Shanama, that is just the tale of the

01:12:57.689 --> 01:13:20.439
kings. Why don't we move on and talk about the

01:13:20.439 --> 01:13:23.380
United States and Iran here under Reza Shah?

01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:28.439
The United States is still respected, particularly

01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:31.460
initially during the time of Reza Shah. But,

01:13:31.479 --> 01:13:34.779
you know, this influence is not always going

01:13:34.779 --> 01:13:38.840
to be there. diminish over the course of Reza

01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:41.300
Shah's... What influence? American influence.

01:13:41.359 --> 01:13:44.039
American influence. Within the country. There

01:13:44.039 --> 01:13:47.000
was attempts to bring back Schuster, who we talked

01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:49.140
about last time, because of his effectiveness

01:13:49.140 --> 01:13:52.680
in putting Persia's house in order, or his attempts

01:13:52.680 --> 01:13:54.840
to. He was hired, he was the American hired as

01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:58.199
the treasurer of Qajar, Iran. Yes. In 1909 or

01:13:58.199 --> 01:14:02.539
so, right? Yes. Yeah. And so we had kind of his

01:14:02.539 --> 01:14:06.510
successor was a guy named Arthur Millspaw. And

01:14:06.510 --> 01:14:09.090
Millspaw was actually in charge of overseeing

01:14:09.090 --> 01:14:13.229
government finances between 1922 and 1927. Now,

01:14:13.250 --> 01:14:15.829
this is also the period in which Reza Shah is

01:14:15.829 --> 01:14:19.130
consolidating power. Millspaw claims to have

01:14:19.130 --> 01:14:23.510
done quite well off of the financial situation,

01:14:23.770 --> 01:14:28.510
improving revenue from about $20 million to about

01:14:28.510 --> 01:14:32.470
$31 million during his tenure. And this is certainly

01:14:32.470 --> 01:14:36.979
an improvement. Just to kind of go off on a tangent

01:14:36.979 --> 01:14:40.659
here about what oil revenue was like, oil revenue

01:14:40.659 --> 01:14:44.739
is on the average of about $43 to $44 million

01:14:44.739 --> 01:14:50.439
just for BP alone exploiting its fields and refineries

01:14:50.439 --> 01:14:56.159
in the south. And again, Persia slash Iran is

01:14:56.159 --> 01:14:59.060
still under this treaty, this 60 -year treaty

01:14:59.060 --> 01:15:03.460
with the British. And at this point, the British

01:15:03.460 --> 01:15:07.020
government controls 51 % of BP. And out of this

01:15:07.020 --> 01:15:12.560
figure of $43 to $44 million per year, the Iranian

01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:17.060
government is receiving $1 .8 million per year.

01:15:17.850 --> 01:15:20.569
They're actually getting, they're actually, the

01:15:20.569 --> 01:15:24.789
British government is receiving more from BP

01:15:24.789 --> 01:15:27.649
than the Iranian government is receiving from

01:15:27.649 --> 01:15:31.229
BP. The future BP. Yeah. The future BP, yes.

01:15:31.229 --> 01:15:33.149
At this point, Anglo -Iranian oil company. Anglo

01:15:33.149 --> 01:15:34.829
-Iranian oil company. Now, was this hearkening

01:15:34.829 --> 01:15:38.050
back to that treaty from the early 1900s? Yes.

01:15:38.090 --> 01:15:41.689
Well, actually, yeah, the early 1900s. The Iranians

01:15:41.689 --> 01:15:46.789
got 16%. Yes. So they're not doing well off of

01:15:46.789 --> 01:15:50.010
this. And so revenue, there is money out there

01:15:50.010 --> 01:15:52.649
for stuff, but the Iranians are certainly not

01:15:52.649 --> 01:15:54.550
receiving it, even though they are bringing in

01:15:54.550 --> 01:15:57.550
American expertise. And this expertise is becoming

01:15:57.550 --> 01:16:01.899
increasingly, unpopular with Reza Shah because

01:16:01.899 --> 01:16:06.800
Arthur Millspaw is insisting on kind of like

01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:11.100
regular prompt payments and all of this very

01:16:11.100 --> 01:16:14.380
orderly CPA type mentality and Reza Shah wants

01:16:14.380 --> 01:16:17.520
money to build things with and he's not really

01:16:17.520 --> 01:16:20.819
too particular about how this process occurs

01:16:20.819 --> 01:16:26.399
here. Another thing that kind of underscores

01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:31.699
just how American and Iranian relations are is

01:16:31.699 --> 01:16:36.979
basically in 1935, an accredited representative

01:16:36.979 --> 01:16:44.079
of Iran was arrested by Maryland police because

01:16:44.079 --> 01:16:46.500
his chauffeur was speeding, and supposedly this

01:16:46.500 --> 01:16:49.659
guy, Ghaffar Jalal, pushed or hit one of the

01:16:49.659 --> 01:16:54.500
officers. The officers, his title was minister,

01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:58.539
and the police officers in Maryland thought that

01:16:58.539 --> 01:17:00.880
he was a minister. A lot of what we now call

01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:03.060
ambassadors were called ministers. Yes, but they

01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:04.939
thought he was someone who was there to marry

01:17:04.939 --> 01:17:07.420
people. A clergyman. A clergyman. Elkton was

01:17:07.420 --> 01:17:09.659
a big marriage center back in those days, as

01:17:09.659 --> 01:17:13.039
I recall. Yes. People would come down to Maryland

01:17:13.039 --> 01:17:15.659
to elope. Get a quickie marriage. A quickie marriage.

01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:21.050
And so this guy who was the equivalent. of kind

01:17:21.050 --> 01:17:23.789
of an ambassador, is put into handcuffs and arrested.

01:17:24.329 --> 01:17:27.869
Given Reza Shah's prickliness about the status

01:17:27.869 --> 01:17:30.130
of his country, the idea that his representative

01:17:30.130 --> 01:17:35.229
could be arrested by the Elton police was more

01:17:35.229 --> 01:17:37.750
than body and soul could bear. And so he broke

01:17:37.750 --> 01:17:40.569
off diplomatic relations with America and did

01:17:40.569 --> 01:17:44.350
not resume them until World War II, where Iran

01:17:44.350 --> 01:17:48.630
had really no choice in the matter. Then finally,

01:17:49.630 --> 01:17:53.630
In terms of influence, declining influence, what

01:17:53.630 --> 01:17:56.529
we're seeing is these missionary schools, which

01:17:56.529 --> 01:17:59.369
we talked about last time, these are being absorbed

01:17:59.369 --> 01:18:03.250
by Reza Shah's educational ministry. They are

01:18:03.250 --> 01:18:06.109
being closed down. They are being standardized

01:18:06.109 --> 01:18:08.590
to fit Iranian standards. Even though these were

01:18:08.590 --> 01:18:13.109
kind of like the elite schools for the Iranian

01:18:13.109 --> 01:18:16.710
ruling class, they are being brought into...

01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:24.260
under the Persian system. Instruction is going

01:18:24.260 --> 01:18:27.020
to have to be done strictly in Persian. There

01:18:27.020 --> 01:18:31.260
is no teaching of the Christian Bible. And instruction

01:18:31.260 --> 01:18:35.479
in Shia Islam is also made mandatory. So eventually

01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:39.100
these schools are acquired by the Ministry of

01:18:39.100 --> 01:18:44.680
Education. And by 1941, the year that Reza Shah's

01:18:44.680 --> 01:18:49.199
rule ends, This is the end of about a century

01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:51.800
of American Presbyterian missionary schools,

01:18:52.159 --> 01:18:57.199
all done at this point. We're now looking at

01:18:57.199 --> 01:19:00.100
the period of World War II looming towards the

01:19:00.100 --> 01:19:03.960
end of the reign of Reza Shah. And really, the

01:19:03.960 --> 01:19:07.340
threat that Reza Shah sees is that of the Soviet

01:19:07.340 --> 01:19:11.189
Union. This is by far the country that he fears

01:19:11.189 --> 01:19:14.250
the most. And so he is actually fishing around

01:19:14.250 --> 01:19:18.449
to try and get some assistance. Well, it isn't

01:19:18.449 --> 01:19:19.750
going to come from the United States because

01:19:19.750 --> 01:19:21.970
there is no diplomatic. There are no diplomatic

01:19:21.970 --> 01:19:25.550
relations. And by the way, Americans do not prioritize

01:19:25.550 --> 01:19:27.609
what's going on in Iran as something that they

01:19:27.609 --> 01:19:29.750
need to really care about at this point and lead

01:19:29.750 --> 01:19:32.369
up to the war. So the idea that they're going

01:19:32.369 --> 01:19:34.170
to be able to acquire equipment from America,

01:19:34.430 --> 01:19:37.729
yet another country, that is not going to happen.

01:19:38.409 --> 01:19:41.689
It becomes difficult to get equipment from Britain

01:19:41.689 --> 01:19:45.590
because Britain is preparing to... deal with

01:19:45.590 --> 01:19:48.470
the Nazis, and they're not really prioritizing

01:19:48.470 --> 01:19:52.789
what's going on in Iran either. It's kind of

01:19:52.789 --> 01:19:57.029
weird because it is a major strategic source

01:19:57.029 --> 01:20:04.270
of fuel for the Navy and for any sort of petroleum

01:20:04.270 --> 01:20:06.890
-based fuel, and their solution is basically,

01:20:07.069 --> 01:20:09.729
okay, if the Russians try to take over the country,

01:20:09.810 --> 01:20:11.949
we're just going to blow everything up. That

01:20:11.949 --> 01:20:15.750
was their solution, at least. up to a point because

01:20:15.750 --> 01:20:17.970
at this you know in the early that was britain's

01:20:17.970 --> 01:20:20.550
solution britain's solution yes well yeah i mean

01:20:20.550 --> 01:20:22.050
you have to understand what's fundamentally different

01:20:22.050 --> 01:20:23.829
between the lead up to world war one and the

01:20:23.829 --> 01:20:26.010
lead up to world war two is that the lead up

01:20:26.010 --> 01:20:28.630
to world war one happened after a period of major

01:20:28.630 --> 01:20:32.369
rearmament among the major powers of the world

01:20:32.369 --> 01:20:35.369
world war two the precursors of that started

01:20:35.369 --> 01:20:39.180
happening after a period of disarmament so almost

01:20:39.180 --> 01:20:40.960
all the countries of the world were actually

01:20:41.479 --> 01:20:43.619
fairly weak militarily right before World War

01:20:43.619 --> 01:20:45.840
II. Yes. And they had to contract what they could

01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:50.380
and could not do, make some hard choices there.

01:20:50.579 --> 01:20:52.619
I mean, it could entirely be that the British

01:20:52.619 --> 01:20:54.619
Army and the Royal Navy and the RAF said, we

01:20:54.619 --> 01:20:57.819
can't really defend Iran. Against the Soviet

01:20:57.819 --> 01:20:59.600
Union. With the force we have now, we have other

01:20:59.600 --> 01:21:00.920
things to deal with and we won't be able to do

01:21:00.920 --> 01:21:03.979
it, so blow everything up if it happens. That

01:21:03.979 --> 01:21:06.359
would be a reasonable conclusion to come to in

01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:07.340
those days. And again, I should say, against

01:21:07.340 --> 01:21:10.560
the Soviet Union. There is a different threat

01:21:10.560 --> 01:21:16.000
which also emerges, particularly as things are

01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:20.060
progressing, and this is Germany. Germany actually

01:21:20.060 --> 01:21:23.680
was not necessarily rebuffing Reza Shah, and

01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:26.720
they saw a chance to gain influence in the area.

01:21:26.939 --> 01:21:31.680
They had a population of about 4 ,000 German

01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:35.539
nationals that were located throughout Iran.

01:21:36.329 --> 01:21:39.670
that were viewed with suspicion not only by Britain,

01:21:39.770 --> 01:21:44.930
but also by the Soviet Union. So as the war comes,

01:21:45.069 --> 01:21:48.829
and as Britain gets involved in its battle with

01:21:48.829 --> 01:21:55.439
the Nazis first, And then in June 22, 1941, you

01:21:55.439 --> 01:22:00.000
have Nazi Germany invading Russia. Iran becomes

01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:02.899
that much more important to both of them for

01:22:02.899 --> 01:22:06.300
many reasons. They are looking at all these Germans

01:22:06.300 --> 01:22:09.319
and they're worried about fifth columnists taking

01:22:09.319 --> 01:22:13.460
over and coming in and delivering up the country.

01:22:13.880 --> 01:22:16.020
to the Nazis there. And there was more to it

01:22:16.020 --> 01:22:17.659
than that, though, right? Because Reza Shah had

01:22:17.659 --> 01:22:19.800
been aligning himself with the German government.

01:22:20.039 --> 01:22:23.319
Yes, and it was basically, there was a certain

01:22:23.319 --> 01:22:26.659
ideological confluence that was going on between

01:22:26.659 --> 01:22:33.170
Nazi Germany and Reza Shah. A lot of people will

01:22:33.170 --> 01:22:35.829
say he was a Nazi. I would say that that's an

01:22:35.829 --> 01:22:37.949
overstatement at best. A couple of things were

01:22:37.949 --> 01:22:40.350
going on there. One was that he was trying to

01:22:40.350 --> 01:22:42.409
seek a counterbalance to both the Soviet Union

01:22:42.409 --> 01:22:44.390
and Britain, frankly, because Britain was also

01:22:44.390 --> 01:22:46.449
predatory as far as he was concerned. He looked

01:22:46.449 --> 01:22:49.029
for someplace he could go to to get that. He

01:22:49.029 --> 01:22:51.109
settled on Germany, which was obviously a rising

01:22:51.109 --> 01:22:53.430
power at the time, and he tried to have some

01:22:53.430 --> 01:22:56.170
kind of association with them, at least, as a

01:22:56.170 --> 01:22:59.960
counterbalance to the other two. The other thing

01:22:59.960 --> 01:23:01.939
that I looked at here that's kind of interesting

01:23:01.939 --> 01:23:05.460
is the term Aryan, which kind of fits into all

01:23:05.460 --> 01:23:07.399
of this. So Sharon, you were saying earlier,

01:23:07.659 --> 01:23:12.680
Aryan and Iran come from a common, are the same

01:23:12.680 --> 01:23:18.460
word, basically, right? So the Aryans, what we

01:23:18.460 --> 01:23:20.359
hear, what we always think nowadays about Hitler,

01:23:20.380 --> 01:23:23.279
talking about Aryans. All right. The Nazis said

01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:25.800
the Aryans, that they were Aryans, the Aryans

01:23:25.800 --> 01:23:27.859
are the master race and all their idiotic racial

01:23:27.859 --> 01:23:30.920
theories. And that's how we think of the word

01:23:30.920 --> 01:23:33.640
Aryan. It actually has another history to it,

01:23:33.699 --> 01:23:37.300
which is that if you do forensic linguistics

01:23:37.300 --> 01:23:39.500
and look back in time on who spoke what, when

01:23:39.500 --> 01:23:41.460
and where, you know, and you get back in Indo

01:23:41.460 --> 01:23:43.319
-European languages, you get back to proto -Indo

01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:45.689
-European. There's some thinking that, you know,

01:23:45.689 --> 01:23:48.329
back then there things split off and some of

01:23:48.329 --> 01:23:50.109
the people headed down toward what are now Iran

01:23:50.109 --> 01:23:52.569
and India and you wind up with some Indo -European

01:23:52.569 --> 01:23:54.970
languages there. So Farsi is an Indo -European

01:23:54.970 --> 01:23:57.670
language. It's more closely related to French

01:23:57.670 --> 01:24:00.069
and German than it is to Arabic or something

01:24:00.069 --> 01:24:03.149
like that. Same thing with Hindi. And those are

01:24:03.149 --> 01:24:06.229
now called the Indo -Iranian language subgroup

01:24:06.229 --> 01:24:09.739
of that. Some people call it Indo -Aryan to this

01:24:09.739 --> 01:24:12.300
day. And the Aryan association is that there's

01:24:12.300 --> 01:24:15.939
this old idea of those people were the Aryans.

01:24:16.560 --> 01:24:19.779
Now, it has a kind of a more innocent idea in

01:24:19.779 --> 01:24:23.640
Iran and India where the Aryans were just their

01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:26.840
ancestors, right? The people that way back in

01:24:26.840 --> 01:24:28.520
time where their kind of mythical ancestors were

01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:31.840
these Aryans. The Nazis took it and made the

01:24:31.840 --> 01:24:34.199
Aryans be this, you know, that they're the descendant

01:24:34.199 --> 01:24:35.920
of the Aryans and they were the master race and

01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:37.890
all that stuff. So you wind up with Aryan in

01:24:37.890 --> 01:24:39.470
two different meanings in those two different

01:24:39.470 --> 01:24:41.949
places. One dark, the other one, I think, fairly

01:24:41.949 --> 01:24:44.770
innocent. But both are using the term Aryan.

01:24:45.229 --> 01:24:49.149
Exactly. So when Reza Shah and Iranians themselves

01:24:49.149 --> 01:24:51.869
are thinking of themselves as Aryans, that's

01:24:51.869 --> 01:24:54.310
what Iranian means, right? And you have somebody

01:24:54.310 --> 01:24:57.229
else over here saying, oh, we're Aryans. there's

01:24:57.229 --> 01:24:59.989
kind of this nonsensical use of terminology that

01:24:59.989 --> 01:25:01.689
mean different things that seems to make them

01:25:01.689 --> 01:25:03.430
align with each other on that. And they really

01:25:03.430 --> 01:25:06.369
aren't related, other than in some kind of dumb,

01:25:06.470 --> 01:25:08.750
old -fashioned racial sense that people made

01:25:08.750 --> 01:25:10.810
up back in the 19th century. But there's no other

01:25:10.810 --> 01:25:14.250
real correlation there. But nonetheless, those

01:25:14.250 --> 01:25:16.829
terms are both used, and it can be quite confusing

01:25:16.829 --> 01:25:19.069
if you don't understand that distinction. If

01:25:19.069 --> 01:25:21.170
that all makes any sense. It does make sense.

01:25:21.449 --> 01:25:24.109
But here's the other thing, the kind of basic

01:25:24.109 --> 01:25:27.050
thing to take away from all of this, Reza Shah

01:25:27.050 --> 01:25:30.850
with Germany. He's playing with fire. There is

01:25:30.850 --> 01:25:33.850
no way that Germany is going to be able to assist

01:25:33.850 --> 01:25:37.170
him, just given its commitments throughout the

01:25:37.170 --> 01:25:40.920
world. And the idea that... this is not going

01:25:40.920 --> 01:25:43.760
to result in some sort of difficulty for him

01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:47.760
is kind of an over -optimistic view of the events.

01:25:48.300 --> 01:25:53.479
So the Soviets and the British, who have only

01:25:53.479 --> 01:25:56.180
been on the same side of the war for a little

01:25:56.180 --> 01:26:03.800
less than a month, issue in July 1941. a declaration

01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:08.720
to, an ultimatum actually, to Iran saying, get

01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:10.779
the Germans out, they're to be kicked out of

01:26:10.779 --> 01:26:14.460
the country or else. And this was not complied

01:26:14.460 --> 01:26:18.659
with. So in August, there is a, you know, and

01:26:18.659 --> 01:26:22.689
this is kind of remarkable because the, again,

01:26:23.350 --> 01:26:25.609
They've only been on the same side, so their

01:26:25.609 --> 01:26:27.930
ability to be able to conduct a joint operation

01:26:27.930 --> 01:26:34.720
against a particular country is kind of not what

01:26:34.720 --> 01:26:38.680
one would expect. But it is something that— It's

01:26:38.680 --> 01:26:39.979
surprising they could do it that quickly. They

01:26:39.979 --> 01:26:41.659
were able to do it, and they were able to do

01:26:41.659 --> 01:26:46.100
it fairly successfully. And so kind of the objectives—

01:26:47.369 --> 01:26:50.869
They launched a pincer attack on Iran, the Soviets

01:26:50.869 --> 01:26:53.510
and the British, and the objectives were to secure

01:26:53.510 --> 01:26:56.470
the oil fields and the refinery at Abadan, which

01:26:56.470 --> 01:27:00.930
is the largest oil refinery in the world at this

01:27:00.930 --> 01:27:03.930
point, to open up the Iranian Railroad, which

01:27:03.930 --> 01:27:08.689
is one of Reza Shah's big... as a means to transport

01:27:08.689 --> 01:27:11.750
military equipment attended to the Persian Gulf

01:27:11.750 --> 01:27:14.069
and to neutralize the Iranian... From the Persian

01:27:14.069 --> 01:27:16.270
Gulf to the Soviet Union. To the Soviet Union,

01:27:16.329 --> 01:27:20.050
to the Caspian Sea. And also to neutralize the

01:27:20.050 --> 01:27:23.109
Iranian army. Now, the Iranian army's neutralization

01:27:23.109 --> 01:27:25.850
did not take much effort. I mean, it was kind

01:27:25.850 --> 01:27:28.890
of like they just needed to blow hard on it just

01:27:28.890 --> 01:27:31.069
because of the internal contradictions. It was

01:27:31.069 --> 01:27:33.909
almost like seeing Desert Storm enacted without...

01:27:34.170 --> 01:27:36.909
anybody having to do much because, in a sense,

01:27:37.149 --> 01:27:40.430
the army was absolutely destroyed. It had poor

01:27:40.430 --> 01:27:45.689
communications. It had an inability to be able

01:27:45.689 --> 01:27:51.210
to operate in a defensive posture. And so this

01:27:51.210 --> 01:27:54.710
is somewhat problematic. I looked into it and

01:27:54.710 --> 01:27:56.430
there was actually like one fight that they actually

01:27:56.430 --> 01:27:59.090
won for like one day. Yes. In Khuzestan, which

01:27:59.090 --> 01:28:01.470
is the southwestern part of Iran, northeastern

01:28:01.470 --> 01:28:03.510
corner of the Persian Gulf. They held off the

01:28:03.510 --> 01:28:05.229
Indian army and drove them. The Indian army was

01:28:05.229 --> 01:28:06.590
fighting as part of the British Empire forces.

01:28:06.789 --> 01:28:08.810
And they held off an Indian army force for like

01:28:08.810 --> 01:28:11.489
a day. That was about it in terms of, then they

01:28:11.489 --> 01:28:14.220
lost in that battle. That was like their only

01:28:14.220 --> 01:28:16.600
success that I could find. Only, I mean, and

01:28:16.600 --> 01:28:19.180
essentially the poor morale that we had been

01:28:19.180 --> 01:28:21.779
talking about, conscripts being abused, this

01:28:21.779 --> 01:28:24.560
came back to bite them because large -scale desertions

01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:26.760
were kind of like the order of the day for the

01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:30.859
Iranian army when the invasion occurred. Another

01:28:30.859 --> 01:28:33.000
thing that happened was that there were Iranian

01:28:33.000 --> 01:28:36.859
generals, and I think maybe the prime minister

01:28:36.859 --> 01:28:41.500
under Reza Shah, actually were pro -British.

01:28:42.460 --> 01:28:45.380
in this fight. And I was wondering, like, why?

01:28:45.439 --> 01:28:47.199
And the answer was, they just said, well, look,

01:28:47.260 --> 01:28:49.000
the worst thing that could happen is we get taken

01:28:49.000 --> 01:28:50.819
over by the Soviet Union, by the communists.

01:28:51.060 --> 01:28:53.619
That's the worst possible thing. We can't beat

01:28:53.619 --> 01:28:55.359
these people. The British and the Soviets are

01:28:55.359 --> 01:28:57.460
going to win. I'd rather have the British take

01:28:57.460 --> 01:28:59.880
over more of the country than the Soviets. Let's

01:28:59.880 --> 01:29:02.020
let this thing play out very quickly so we don't

01:29:02.020 --> 01:29:03.859
get our army destroyed by these two countries

01:29:03.859 --> 01:29:08.250
we can't beat anyway. And hopefully things will

01:29:08.250 --> 01:29:09.930
work out in the long run where with the British

01:29:09.930 --> 01:29:11.710
here as much as the Soviets or more than the

01:29:11.710 --> 01:29:13.569
Soviets, we'll get our country back someday,

01:29:13.770 --> 01:29:16.810
right? Reza Shah did not like this idea. He apparently

01:29:16.810 --> 01:29:20.710
beat one of the generals with a cane or something

01:29:20.710 --> 01:29:23.270
when he found out about it. You can imagine him

01:29:23.270 --> 01:29:24.930
doing that. And wanted to shoot him, but didn't

01:29:24.930 --> 01:29:26.310
shoot him, just put him in prison or something.

01:29:27.489 --> 01:29:30.069
Yeah. So from Reza Shah's point of view, there

01:29:30.069 --> 01:29:33.720
was a lot of treason going on in Iran. the military's

01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:36.279
point of view, this was the logical thing to

01:29:36.279 --> 01:29:37.979
do in order to keep Iran from being completely

01:29:37.979 --> 01:29:40.739
subjugated. Treason to him, not necessarily treason

01:29:40.739 --> 01:29:44.539
to the country in the long term. So this is all

01:29:44.539 --> 01:29:47.760
over by the 29th of August. Six days, I think,

01:29:47.779 --> 01:29:50.319
right? Yes. And so the country gets divided into

01:29:50.319 --> 01:29:52.199
two separate command structures, the Soviets

01:29:52.199 --> 01:29:55.800
in the north, the British in the south. And communications

01:29:55.800 --> 01:30:00.020
between the two regions persisted, as you would

01:30:00.020 --> 01:30:04.630
expect. But the route through Iran using the

01:30:04.630 --> 01:30:07.289
Trans -Iranian Railroad that Reza Shah had created

01:30:07.289 --> 01:30:10.930
would become one of the more useful and important

01:30:10.930 --> 01:30:13.890
avenues of transporting weapons to the Soviet

01:30:13.890 --> 01:30:16.050
Union during World War II. It became known as

01:30:16.050 --> 01:30:19.909
the Persian Corridor. Yes. Now, this would only

01:30:19.909 --> 01:30:22.630
increase when the United States entered the war

01:30:22.630 --> 01:30:28.140
in December of 1941, four months later. And it

01:30:28.140 --> 01:30:30.880
used Iran to assemble and transship Lend -Lease

01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:34.180
equipment, tanks, aircraft to fight the Nazis

01:30:34.180 --> 01:30:37.180
on the Eastern Front. So Reza Shah actually gets

01:30:37.180 --> 01:30:41.060
deposed despite all of this spending on the military.

01:30:41.840 --> 01:30:44.939
The military was unable to kind of deal with

01:30:44.939 --> 01:30:48.020
any sort of existential threat when it actually

01:30:48.020 --> 01:30:51.380
occurred. And this meant the combined might of

01:30:51.380 --> 01:30:54.939
the Soviet Union and the British Empire. attacking

01:30:54.939 --> 01:30:57.039
the country and kind of returning things to the

01:30:57.039 --> 01:30:59.220
way they were in the 19th century in the Khazars.

01:30:59.399 --> 01:31:02.420
How did that play out? Did the Iranians depose

01:31:02.420 --> 01:31:04.079
him, or did the British and Soviets say, you

01:31:04.079 --> 01:31:06.199
will depose him, and then they did? They took

01:31:06.199 --> 01:31:09.520
him off. Who? The British. The British took him

01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:12.359
off. They took him off, and he ended up in South

01:31:12.359 --> 01:31:14.920
Africa, which was then part of the British Empire.

01:31:15.380 --> 01:31:17.640
Against his will, I assume. I don't think he

01:31:17.640 --> 01:31:18.779
was going there. They said, we'd like you to

01:31:18.779 --> 01:31:22.250
leave. Yes. And he ended up dying of a heart

01:31:22.250 --> 01:31:25.829
ailment down there in 1944. It was not clear

01:31:25.829 --> 01:31:29.010
who they were going to put in to take his place.

01:31:29.229 --> 01:31:31.689
There was even some talk of the Qajars. None

01:31:31.689 --> 01:31:33.569
of them spoke Persian at this point, so they

01:31:33.569 --> 01:31:35.659
were kind of out of the running. been totally

01:31:35.659 --> 01:31:37.979
westernized at this point. None of the Qajars

01:31:37.979 --> 01:31:41.140
spoke Persian? At this point, yes. In fact, the

01:31:41.140 --> 01:31:43.739
Qajars are actually in this country right now.

01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:45.779
They had a deep lack of commitment to Persian.

01:31:46.619 --> 01:31:50.340
Well, let me just, a little anecdote here. The

01:31:50.340 --> 01:31:52.479
head of the Qajar family actually lives in Dallas,

01:31:52.640 --> 01:31:57.479
Texas right now. And his daughter... is an actress.

01:31:58.180 --> 01:32:02.800
She has won fame in a lesbian soap opera on Showtime

01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:07.539
playing a Hispanic woman. Not a Persian woman,

01:32:07.659 --> 01:32:10.279
but a Hispanic woman. She does speak Persian,

01:32:10.340 --> 01:32:11.779
though. I was going to ask if they've taken any

01:32:11.779 --> 01:32:13.460
Persian lessons. Yeah, she had taken Persian

01:32:13.460 --> 01:32:15.739
lessons. So the Khazars had kind of like written

01:32:15.739 --> 01:32:19.079
off Iran. It was like, you know, thanks for everything,

01:32:19.220 --> 01:32:22.199
but we're going to... Pursue our own destiny

01:32:22.199 --> 01:32:24.180
in the West here. We got our money and we're

01:32:24.180 --> 01:32:30.739
out of here. So by default, the person who does

01:32:30.739 --> 01:32:33.500
take over for Reza Shah is his son, Mohammed.

01:32:34.479 --> 01:32:37.220
And they decided it would be too much trouble

01:32:37.220 --> 01:32:40.460
to do anything else but that. I think they also

01:32:40.460 --> 01:32:44.960
thought that he would be malleable. Yes. Yes.

01:32:45.380 --> 01:32:49.819
He was seen as weak -willed. And this is... probably

01:32:49.819 --> 01:32:52.939
a very accurate view of his overall character,

01:32:53.140 --> 01:32:56.640
although he would try to conceal that. And he

01:32:56.640 --> 01:32:59.539
was quite young at this time as well. Yes. He

01:32:59.539 --> 01:33:03.239
is, I think about, he's like early 20s, late

01:33:03.239 --> 01:33:07.060
teens. And so he is going to be observing a lot

01:33:07.060 --> 01:33:09.539
of things happening. He's not really going to

01:33:09.539 --> 01:33:12.699
have much of a goal in governing. But in our

01:33:12.699 --> 01:33:14.739
next episode, we're going to look at World War

01:33:14.739 --> 01:33:18.270
II and we're going to look at... at his limited

01:33:18.270 --> 01:33:21.729
role in World War II, and even look at a conference

01:33:21.729 --> 01:33:24.630
that the Allies have in Tehran, which involves

01:33:24.630 --> 01:33:28.329
the Iranians not one damn bit at all. It might

01:33:28.329 --> 01:33:31.789
be useful in closing to consider the person of

01:33:31.789 --> 01:33:35.760
Reza Shah. He remains a controversial figure

01:33:35.760 --> 01:33:39.579
in Iranian history, but he had a really profound

01:33:39.579 --> 01:33:44.460
impact on modern Iran. Although for the purposes

01:33:44.460 --> 01:33:48.180
of this program, he had a negligible impact on

01:33:48.180 --> 01:33:51.439
U .S.-Iranian relations. When he came to power,

01:33:51.659 --> 01:33:54.800
the government really struggled to control substantial

01:33:54.800 --> 01:33:58.199
parts of the country. Tribal authorities held

01:33:58.199 --> 01:34:01.439
power over many areas, and the country easily

01:34:01.439 --> 01:34:03.720
could have been broken apart and suffered the

01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:06.439
fate of many of the other countries in the Middle

01:34:06.439 --> 01:34:10.180
East. But what Raja Shah created was a viable

01:34:10.180 --> 01:34:15.489
central state that survived him. There were some

01:34:15.489 --> 01:34:19.630
pretty serious issues with how he did this, suppressing

01:34:19.630 --> 01:34:23.789
minorities and suppressing any sort of dissent.

01:34:23.829 --> 01:34:26.829
The biggest irony of his entire role is that

01:34:26.829 --> 01:34:29.729
he built this state to protect Iran from outside

01:34:29.729 --> 01:34:33.470
powers and then ended up himself being overthrown

01:34:33.470 --> 01:34:39.390
by these outside powers. World War II would represent

01:34:39.390 --> 01:34:42.649
a turning point. for not just Iran, but also

01:34:42.649 --> 01:34:45.010
the United States. And that we will explore in

01:34:45.010 --> 01:34:48.699
our next episode. We thank Sharon Bybee for joining

01:34:48.699 --> 01:34:51.520
us again today. Remember to check out her sub

01:34:51.520 --> 01:34:54.819
stack, Redacted No More. We have a link to it

01:34:54.819 --> 01:34:58.960
in the blog section of our website at usofamnesia

01:34:58.960 --> 01:35:02.180
.com. And we'll add a link to the show notes

01:35:02.180 --> 01:35:07.430
for the episode too. That's it for this episode

01:35:07.430 --> 01:35:10.409
of the United States of Amnesia. Thank you for

01:35:10.409 --> 01:35:12.789
listening. We hope you learned something and

01:35:12.789 --> 01:35:14.890
we hope you discovered new ways of looking at

01:35:14.890 --> 01:35:17.310
things you had already heard or thought about

01:35:17.310 --> 01:35:20.729
or perhaps hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed

01:35:20.729 --> 01:35:23.029
it, that's great. If we made you mad, that's

01:35:23.029 --> 01:35:27.930
okay too. Either way, email us at usa .amnesia

01:35:27.930 --> 01:35:30.550
at gmail .com and let us know what you think.

01:35:30.989 --> 01:35:33.229
Also, let us know about anything you think we

01:35:33.229 --> 01:35:35.289
missed or got wrong. We'd like to know about

01:35:35.289 --> 01:35:38.609
that too. And of course, Please like and subscribe

01:35:38.609 --> 01:35:40.750
and let your friends and neighbors know about

01:35:40.750 --> 01:35:47.229
us. We also have a website. It's www .usofamnesia

01:35:47.229 --> 01:35:51.649
.com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself, Blake Henke.

01:35:51.750 --> 01:35:52.710
Till next time.