203: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - Rebellion Follows Faith

WEBVTT

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The following is a quote from Ulysses S. Grant

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from 1879. The Chinese like Americans better

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or perhaps hate them less than any other foreigners.

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We are the only power that recognizes their right

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to control their own domestic affairs. So what

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does this mean? Welcome to the United States

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of Amnesia. We are the podcast that reminds us

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of what we have forgotten. It is often said that

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history repeats itself. Mark Twain allegedly

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said that history doesn't repeat itself, but

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it rhymes. But over time, many topics have become

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clouded by biases and oversimplifications, or

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have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. In our last episode,

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the newly independent United States attempted

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to develop a reciprocal trading network with

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China, although a small part of this consisted

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of the then legal drug, opium. Unlike the British,

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American merchant men did not have access to

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a ready supply. Other products were sold to provide

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a balance of trade with the US for popular commodities

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such as tea, silk, and porcelain. In the early

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part of the 19th century and before, China held

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a monopoly on tea. which was popular throughout

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the English -speaking world. Trade was restricted

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to the southern port city of Canton, now called

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Guangzhou, although other nearby locations along

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the approaches were popular for smuggling. Trade

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was done exclusively in silver at Chinese insistence.

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We're going to look at how U .S. missionaries

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fostered a new elite. This new elite would replace

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the failing Manchu dynasty, drive them from power,

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and play a leading role in US -China relations

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for the majority of the 20th century. More importantly,

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this new elite would affect US perceptions of

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China and Asia, and these were based off what

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will become apparent in the next episode as wishful

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thinking. For now, the US will be looking at

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China and the Chinese people in several different

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and contradictory ways. This would include souls

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to be saved, hard -working people to be encouraged

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to immigrate to the United States, and finally

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people who by the basis of eugenics would be

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unfit to be citizens of the United States, despite

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all evidence to the contrary. While trade in

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Canton boomed, the 150 -year -old rule of the

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Manchus was falling apart. It would endure to

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1911, 1912, depending on which date you wish

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to assign its demise to. But as we will see,

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the factious environment at the court in Beijing

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was having a negative impact on China's ability

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to resist the West and maintain its insulated

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and isolated society as it had for several thousand

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years. China was going to discover that it was

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not actually the Middle Kingdom despite its insistence

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otherwise. Initially, not only was the power

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of the Qing being undermined, it experienced

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a series of famines, natural disasters, and erosion

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of its prestige when confronted militarily by

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Western powers. Trade imbalances as a result

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of the concessions made during the Opium War

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handicapped the economy. Also between 1766 and

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1833, the population doubled while the amount

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of land cultivated remained fixed. The best was

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in the hands of wealthy landlords. All of these

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factors came together in the 19th century to

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destabilize China internally, and the United

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States was not necessarily helping matters by

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sending hordes of missionaries to try to convert

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people. After being defeated during the first

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Opium War, China was forced to expand the number

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of ports available to the British and eventually

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the United States through its own separate treaty

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operations. They demanded similar concessions.

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However, in the 1844 Treaty of Guangxi, it expanded

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commercial opportunities, but it also permitted

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the U .S. citizens to buy land to erect churches

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and hospitals and overturned a ban on Americans

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learning Chinese. This permitted the Americans

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to have greater impact on China than, say, any

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of the other foreigners who were strictly focused

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on mainly commercial activities. The limit on

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Americans learning the Chinese language was meant

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to limit contact with the Chinese. However, removing

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this kind of gave the US greater advantages not

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immediately enjoyed by other foreigners. and

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would do a great deal to enhance the influence

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of US missionaries for both positive and negative

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outcomes over the course of the century. The

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US Civil War did have a negative impact in terms

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of affecting trade between the US and China,

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but we're going to table any discussion of that

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issue on this episode. Is probably overlooked

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at least in the west is that while the civil

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war was going on the chinese were experiencing

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their own even deadlier civil war Which resulted

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in 20 to 30 million casualties compared to around

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1 .3 million in the u .s civil war and um I did

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a little bit of research on that just to put

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some put it in some perspective here The population

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of the united states at that time in the civil

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war 1860 census was 31 million people So it's

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arguable that in the taiping rebellion the Chinese

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lost something equivalent to the population of

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the entire United States. One whole United States.

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Yeah, one whole United States. It was about 5

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to 10 percent of the Chinese population, 20 to

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30 million people. And if you were to scale that

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up for the United States, that would have been

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the equivalent of the United States losing 1

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.6 to 3 .1 million people during the civil war.

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So that just puts you in a sense of perspective

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on how devastating that war was. One of the bloodiest

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wars in human history. And there are there are

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actually some estimates that go as high as a

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hundred million that sounds very excessive to

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me But but 20 to 30 billion is kind of a best

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guess for how many people probably died if I

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mean, you know We don't even really know for

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sure for sure the exact number in our own country

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for our own civil war there are always there's

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always like new discoveries still being made

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the estimates about 600 000 yeah due to all causes

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due to all combat and disease and things like

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that that's what i've heard about 650 000 yeah

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somewhere in there the thing though to keep in

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mind here is that unlike our civil war chinese

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aren't really affecting it We are having a big

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impact on China's civil war while the rebel army

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against the combined might of the Manchu Empire

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and even They stood against assistance brought

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by the French and the British The American influence

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is probably the most significant because it gave

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the rebels a kind of collective mythology That

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was perpetuated by US missionaries. The rebellion

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was led by Hong Jiuquan a four -time failed candidate

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for the Chinese civil service examinations. Ethnically,

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he was Han Chinese, but he was also part of a

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subgroup called the Hakka, a group of northern

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Han that had fled south in the wake of the Manchu

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invasion. So not a great deal of love lost between

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the Hakka and the Manchus, ruling as they are

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in Peking or Beijing. They had their own customs.

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which were distinct from even the Han, they did

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not go in for foot binding for women, and women

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were actually somewhat less discriminated against

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than elsewhere. They were forced to work in the

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fields, so I suppose that's some form of liberation,

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but not necessarily a beneficial one. one's uh

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ambition was to become a member of the Chinese

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civil service and this involved a three -day

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period of continuous essay composition on themes

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related to Chinese Confucian classics. When he

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failed the fourth time he suffered a nervous

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breakdown and had a vision and this vision um

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was that he was taken up to heaven and he encountered

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all these these mysterious figures, and he didn't

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really understand or assign any particular meaning

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to this dream until he came across a pamphlet

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from a Chinese convert to Christianity that was

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put out by the Mission Society that he claimed

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to understand this dream. The people he saw in

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the dream were the Christian God and Jesus Christ.

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and Hong was actually the younger brother of

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Jesus Christ, and he was tasked with creating

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a heavenly kingdom here on earth or the Taiping

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heavenly kingdom. And this is all under the influence

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of American missionaries and American missionary

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doctrine. No one who was an American missionary

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actually believed that Hong was the younger brother

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of Jesus, but the doctrine that they had preached

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provided them with the basis for understanding

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his visions and things. Hong's revelation led

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him to condemn Confucius, which probably, given

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the fact that he had failed examinations on Confucian

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philosophy, was something that gave him a bit

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of delight there. He claimed that in his vision,

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or he later claimed that in his vision, not initially,

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later claimed that he saw Confucius being punished.

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by his celestial father for leading the people

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astray. You know, and what's interesting about

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this, if we look at parallels in America at the

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same time in the 1840s, you have all the burned

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over region up in upstate New York where all

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sorts of religious cults and groupings are coming

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out of that kind of experience. Joseph Smith.

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Joseph Smith, the various communal experiments

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that are happening, this sort of like experiment

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with kind of religious doctrine. I mean the people

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who are coming over from the United States to

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sort of preach Christianity to the Chinese, they're

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not going to be part of a group like, say, the

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Episcopal Church where there's all sorts of hierarchy

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and things like that. Congregations are going

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to be given a great deal of leeway in terms of

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determining doctrine up to a certain point and

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that kind of liberalization I would say would

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probably translate to how this can influence

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how religion gets restructured, Western religion

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gets restructured within this Chinese context.

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Yeah, apparently Hong, he kind of clued things

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together. Yeah. He was directed to rid the world

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of demons, including the corrupt Qing government

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or Manchu government, right? Yeah. And to get

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rid of Confucian teachings because Confucianism

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was being punished. But he also managed to fuse

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Christianity with Taoism and Confucianism and

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other Chinese philosophical and religious traditions.

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And he actually presented it as being sort of

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a kludge of Christianity and ancient Chinese

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religious tradition. So it was kind of a, Blake

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mentioned Joseph Smith and such, right? It was

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a new Christianity. He was a kludger as well.

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That was a new Christianity for North America,

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right? Put simply. He was forging a new Christianity

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for the Chinese context. And that was like the

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Taiping Christian religion. If we want to think

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about impact here, foreign impacts on society,

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it is disruptive when you think about what Confucianism

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represented within China, order, structure, hierarchy.

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When you start throwing that out, it kind of

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creates its own disturbances within the society.

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So to go back to the General Grant quote, are

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we really not interfering internally with China

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or not? Is this, you know, are we just saving

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souls or are we actually undermining the structure

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of the society by going in there and doing this?

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And in this case, I think we kind of are. And

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this is not the first time that we think we can

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just go in and all we need to do is just adjust

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this or that and everything will work perfectly.

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China will be Christianized and it'll pick up

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all sorts of Advantages that we perceive ourselves

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as having in the wake of theirs, but not really

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taking into account What impact that's going

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to have on the society that exists? Christianity

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is a very powerful force. We did that to Native

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Americans in our own country Well, you know if

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we want to go back even further To a guy who

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wrote in the year the United States was founded

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1776 that would be ever given Gibbons claim in

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chapter 13 of the client and followed Roman Empire

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is that Christianity is what disrupted the kind

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of allegiance of the Roman Empire and led to

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its ultimate demise there. So things that we

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kind of already kind of knew that we're not really

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connecting to this, this great effort that we're

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undertaking by U .S. Protestant churches dominantly.

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But I think I think you have to ask the question

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though, right and this this delves into Christianity

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and you know the missionary concept in the first

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place, right? I mean to what extent is this a

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deliberate effort and undermine Chinese society

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or anybody else's society and to what extent

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is that a good faith pardon the pun a good faith

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effort to evangelize the world And then it has

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unintended consequences of undermining other

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traditions and societies and things. I mean,

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there's a question to be asked there and discussion

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to be had. It's a little bit lazy to just say,

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oh, the missionaries went in to destroy Chinese

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society by bringing Christianity. Probably not.

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They probably went in because they thought that

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Christianity would, I don't know, improve, help

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Chinese society. Fix things. Fix things in Chinese

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society. People wouldn't be going to hell when

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they died. Well, there's that, right? But, you

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know, also Christianity did bring a lot of teachings,

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at least the Christianity of that era, brought

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a lot of teachings that in fact did address some

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pretty awful things that were being done in other

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societies. It did improve things like public

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health. It did, you know, there was a campaign

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against foot binding which, you know, it basically

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involved breaking the bones of women's feet so

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that they would have these incredibly tiny feet

00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.100
and would be unable to walk very well for the

00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:48.220
rest of their lives. You know, this was something

00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:53.159
that was done. It did provide people with scientific

00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.580
and technical training of a sort that they would

00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:58.559
not have been able to get any other way. It was

00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.340
not necessarily something that the government

00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:04.379
was sponsoring. But there is a lack of awareness

00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:07.600
that I think we, you know, what you were saying,

00:16:08.419 --> 00:16:12.059
I think it's more like being unaware or not conscious

00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:16.139
of the fact that you're going in there and To

00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:18.779
borrow a phrase from from Star Trek. You're violating

00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:21.080
the prime directive here You're going in an interview.

00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:24.000
You're interfering with a society You're not

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.139
really taking into account what impact that could

00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:29.100
have on that society, right? And I think also

00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.940
times have changed right in those days. You didn't

00:16:31.940 --> 00:16:34.659
really think of that or care No, you actually

00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:36.860
your goal wasn't to preserve other people's societies

00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:38.679
nowadays, right? It was to go in and change them

00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.259
into yours It's only in more recently in human

00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:43.940
history that we've actually tried to preserve

00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:48.470
maintain and restore other Whatever turn your

00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:50.590
culture is civilizations or you know that that

00:16:50.590 --> 00:16:53.549
were affected by western Culture so much that

00:16:53.549 --> 00:16:55.789
they were undermined in some way, right? The

00:16:55.789 --> 00:16:58.049
idea of not undermining those cultures was not

00:16:58.049 --> 00:16:59.929
a priority or even a thought I don't think it

00:16:59.929 --> 00:17:01.850
was even a thought not even a well in those days

00:17:01.850 --> 00:17:04.769
western society was thought to be superior regardless,

00:17:06.069 --> 00:17:07.849
so Sure, so if you undermine it, no damage is

00:17:07.849 --> 00:17:10.069
done. Yeah, that was beneficial. Yes, you know

00:17:10.069 --> 00:17:13.549
And you can disagree with that nowadays and for

00:17:13.549 --> 00:17:15.529
good reason, but it's way people thought back

00:17:15.529 --> 00:17:18.950
then And it really wasn't until like the 30s,

00:17:18.990 --> 00:17:20.950
as far as China goes, when you had Joseph Needham

00:17:20.950 --> 00:17:23.930
looking at scientific achievements of China,

00:17:24.130 --> 00:17:26.670
that anyone had any appreciation that China might

00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:29.309
have been an advanced society at various times

00:17:29.309 --> 00:17:31.930
in human history. And they may have fallen behind

00:17:31.930 --> 00:17:34.769
with this whole industrial revolution thing,

00:17:35.369 --> 00:17:54.650
which they kind of had in this period. Hong initially

00:17:54.650 --> 00:17:57.490
went over a small number of converts, mainly

00:17:57.490 --> 00:18:01.569
other Hakka, and established the Society of God

00:18:01.569 --> 00:18:04.529
Worshipers. Hong spent time with missionaries

00:18:04.529 --> 00:18:09.029
in Canton in 1847 to gain further insights into

00:18:09.029 --> 00:18:11.990
Christianity and to provide his movement with

00:18:11.990 --> 00:18:15.549
a greater understanding of it. Like many adherents,

00:18:15.549 --> 00:18:17.970
he made the Ten Commandments the bedrock of the

00:18:17.970 --> 00:18:21.849
Society of God Worshipers. He favored full -body

00:18:21.849 --> 00:18:25.700
baptism, which kind of illustrates that he's

00:18:25.700 --> 00:18:28.619
being inspired dominantly by fundamentalist Christians

00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:32.000
of the Baptist or Methodist variety as a central

00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.579
feature of converting to Christianity. Opposition

00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:39.319
to idolatry, a missionary talking point, was

00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:42.759
adopted by Hong, and this informed the view that

00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:47.559
his view meant a clear break with China's past

00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:51.579
as being necessary. In 1850, Hong's Society of

00:18:51.579 --> 00:18:56.319
God Worshippers had 30 ,000 members. This alarmed

00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.819
the Manchus. This led to a conflict within the

00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:05.900
city of Gaiping in 1851 where the Qing army was

00:19:05.900 --> 00:19:11.440
defeated by Hong's ragtag group of followers.

00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:15.259
This engagement led Hong to even greater heights

00:19:15.259 --> 00:19:18.339
of anti -Manchu rhetoric and radical thought.

00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:21.970
The rebels sought to gain territory and they

00:19:21.970 --> 00:19:25.809
gained further con converts and by march 1853

00:19:25.809 --> 00:19:29.509
They had seen seized the ming dynasty's old capital

00:19:29.509 --> 00:19:34.509
city of nanking now nanjing 40 000 manchu men

00:19:34.509 --> 00:19:38.309
women and children Were put to death by burning

00:19:38.309 --> 00:19:44.140
Um so much for thou shalt not kill This would

00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:46.460
be typical of the brutality though associated

00:19:46.460 --> 00:19:50.240
with the conflict on both sides. That month the

00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.440
rebels declared the establishment of new nation,

00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.119
the kingdom of heavenly peace, or the Taiping

00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:58.240
capital, further alarming the court in Peking,

00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.559
now Beijing, though this would not be the last

00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.650
time over the next 11 years that alarm bells

00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:08.170
would be going off within the Forbidden City.

00:20:08.789 --> 00:20:11.430
The capture of Nanking assured control of the

00:20:11.430 --> 00:20:14.190
Jiangxi River Valley, allowing the rebels to

00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:17.430
resupply their capital. Fighting would occur

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:19.730
throughout south and central China until the

00:20:19.730 --> 00:20:24.329
end of 1864. During the heyday in the 1850s,

00:20:24.509 --> 00:20:27.230
the Taipings controlled anywhere from one -third

00:20:27.230 --> 00:20:30.579
to two -thirds of all of China. Now just think

00:20:30.579 --> 00:20:33.960
about this, this is the result of missionaries

00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.700
coming in there and trying to save souls here.

00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.920
And you're destabilizing one third to two thirds

00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.779
of the country. They controlled about 30 million,

00:20:43.059 --> 00:20:45.240
they ruled about 30 million people at their height

00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.400
at this heyday that you're talking about. You

00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:49.220
know, and think about another thing too, right?

00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.210
Is that the... what you're describing, putting

00:20:54.210 --> 00:20:57.509
40 ,000 people to death in Nanjing, it has an

00:20:57.509 --> 00:21:00.069
element of genocidal intent to this war. They're

00:21:00.069 --> 00:21:02.910
trying to kill all the Manchus. And they're people

00:21:02.910 --> 00:21:04.250
that follow them. And the people that follow

00:21:04.250 --> 00:21:07.390
them. You're a Manchu, I'm going to kill you,

00:21:07.569 --> 00:21:09.450
and that's good enough for killing you. You're

00:21:09.450 --> 00:21:10.589
not trying to capture them, trying to get rid

00:21:10.589 --> 00:21:12.650
of you. So it's genocidal. They're trying to

00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:16.690
remove Manchus from Chinese society entirely.

00:21:16.849 --> 00:21:20.380
And to purify. Purify. But it's interesting just

00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:22.960
to note that something supposedly, you know,

00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:25.200
motivated by Christianity and Christian teachings

00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.940
leads to genocide. It goes right out the window.

00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.240
Right out the window and leads to genocide. Based

00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.380
on local biases and prejudices and grievances

00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:37.180
and things. The way this is portrayed in Chinese

00:21:37.180 --> 00:21:40.319
history, particularly with the communists, is

00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:44.279
that they see him as kind of a precursor to Mao.

00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:48.230
You know this if you if you look at this the

00:21:48.230 --> 00:21:52.210
thing that that that I am finding parallels to

00:21:52.210 --> 00:21:56.309
is a cultural revolution Where you are totally

00:21:56.309 --> 00:22:00.529
cutting everything down? That informed society

00:22:00.529 --> 00:22:03.650
in the past and you're attempting to create something

00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:07.390
totally new and organic that will take its place

00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:11.750
and For this reason when when the communists

00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:16.880
are in they're not exactly opposed to this kind

00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.380
of activity. They see it as kind of like proto

00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:22.119
-revolutionary to what the Communist Party was

00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:24.720
trying to accomplish in the 60s. And I don't

00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.960
think that's really gone away in terms of how

00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:31.259
they view that. I mean, the Manchus are Manchurians,

00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:34.380
they're foreigners, so of course, if you're Han

00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:38.609
Chinese, you're trying to avoid that. The problem

00:22:38.609 --> 00:22:41.970
that occurred and probably prolonged this this

00:22:41.970 --> 00:22:46.630
whole civil war involving Taipeng and the Manchus

00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:50.710
was that the Taipengs were not really able to

00:22:50.710 --> 00:22:53.470
consolidate control over the over the territory

00:22:53.470 --> 00:22:55.789
that they conquered and they faced considerable

00:22:55.789 --> 00:22:58.970
local resistance because it's not just a matter

00:22:58.970 --> 00:23:01.990
of being anti Manchu and pro -Han. It's a matter

00:23:01.990 --> 00:23:05.259
of What is this? You know, you've got, you know,

00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.700
different deities. You've got a rejection of

00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:09.859
what has, what is, what has basically governed

00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:12.960
society for like 2000 years. We're throwing that

00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:15.839
away and we're replacing it with this stuff,

00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:20.279
which seems to be changing all the time due to

00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:23.740
the sort of mystical nature of the revelations

00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:26.240
that are occurring at the part of the leadership

00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.119
and the leadership is pretty, pretty confused

00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:33.049
there. Now on the Imperial side, the army's just

00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:37.809
completely incompetent. This is a problem, and

00:23:37.809 --> 00:23:41.190
by this I'm meaning the regular army that the

00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:45.430
emperor funds, because that is not what saves

00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:48.329
the day here. That is not what changes things

00:23:48.329 --> 00:23:51.650
here. But to get back to Hong and his attempts

00:23:51.650 --> 00:23:55.349
here, Hong sought to also involve U .S. missionaries

00:23:55.349 --> 00:23:58.049
in his efforts in the establishment of this new

00:23:58.049 --> 00:24:01.079
kingdom. which was characterized by some U .S.

00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:04.299
missionaries as dazzling despite the array of

00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:09.079
carnage and conflict involved burning Manchurian

00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.420
men, women, and children, and how this might

00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:15.279
have conflicted with Christian doctrine. One

00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:20.140
missionary who was very influential with Hong

00:24:20.140 --> 00:24:24.710
had the name of Esketcher. Roberts, and he saw

00:24:24.710 --> 00:24:27.670
the establishment of the Taiping kingdom as offering

00:24:27.670 --> 00:24:31.029
all manner of opportunities to remake and Christianize

00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:34.670
China. He was part of the type of missionaries

00:24:34.670 --> 00:24:37.730
that really wanted to save souls at the expense

00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:40.630
of everything else. There was another trend within

00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:43.369
American missionaries that involved building

00:24:43.369 --> 00:24:46.730
hospitals, building schools, building churches,

00:24:47.349 --> 00:24:51.930
and trying to improve the material good of society.

00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:57.480
Roberts was mainly concerned with souls, doctrine,

00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:01.500
purity of Christian thought and belief. The afterlife.

00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:03.720
The afterlife. As opposed to the present life.

00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:08.980
And kind of like a sort of purity of doctrine.

00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:12.200
I mean, he wasn't exactly thrilled with the idea

00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.779
that he has somebody claiming to be Jesus' younger

00:25:14.779 --> 00:25:18.160
brother, but he does see it's more like a question

00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.140
of Am getting more opportunities to get people

00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:23.019
who are familiar with Christianity and I can

00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:26.480
kind of fix that as it goes along He even declined

00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.680
to baptize Hong Even though Hong put a lot of

00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:34.200
a lot of emphasis on baptism He declined to do

00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.680
that because he didn't like the claim of being

00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.519
Yes, he thought this was blasphemous. Yeah, okay,

00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.049
you know and and it would have been Both then

00:25:45.049 --> 00:25:47.609
and now for someone to make that sort of claim

00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:51.210
here, but it was a divine revelation. Yes, and

00:25:51.210 --> 00:25:54.309
One person's divine revelation is another person's

00:25:54.309 --> 00:26:02.410
psychosis Within the Taiping movement facing

00:26:02.410 --> 00:26:05.730
the United States ran high and this would be

00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:08.210
characteristics of reform movements within China

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.440
or at least until 1949, this would be a consistent

00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:14.400
characteristic, with the United States serving

00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.099
as a model for the rebel nation. This does not

00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:21.200
mean, though, as some people thought at the time,

00:26:21.259 --> 00:26:23.680
and this is a mistake that America would make

00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.359
over and over and over again, just thinking highly

00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.099
of what the United States had achieved did not

00:26:30.099 --> 00:26:32.940
necessarily mean that everybody was willing to

00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:37.279
buy into every aspect of American society. The

00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.000
Taipings were inspired by the U .S. to create

00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:44.299
a totally new social order which probably would

00:26:44.299 --> 00:26:50.660
be very alien to Americans at the time and even

00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:54.539
now. there were things like rejecting foot binding,

00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.119
which was kind of something that ethnically they

00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:01.640
were opposed to and the absolute total subservience

00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:05.740
of women to the Chinese patriarchy. However,

00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:09.099
land was to be held in common and this goes back

00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:11.859
to the fact that land hunger was very much part

00:27:11.859 --> 00:27:14.680
of the whole dynamic that's driving this rebellion,

00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.759
doubling the population over a period of about

00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.880
a hundred years and no new land to cultivate

00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:24.839
and no outlet. that's going to create its own

00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.319
social tensions there. Women were allowed to

00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.500
be soldiers and were able to command other women

00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:35.940
soldiers in the Taipeng army. The sexes were

00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:41.839
segregated and they weren't really all that sexually

00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:46.359
positive, positive in the sense that they didn't

00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:49.859
encourage sexual intercourse. among the people

00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:52.299
that lived there they were kind of they had some

00:27:52.299 --> 00:27:56.740
funny attitudes about sexual contact not unlike

00:27:56.740 --> 00:28:00.819
some of the communities say like the shakers

00:28:00.819 --> 00:28:03.000
in the united states i'm not sure that they can

00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.980
we can draw a direct line to this but uh this

00:28:05.980 --> 00:28:09.759
level of puritanicalism is kind of at odds with

00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.519
what i would say is is are the dominant themes

00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.240
within chinese society well sexual repression

00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.470
is happens throughout yes but i mean Elimination,

00:28:19.549 --> 00:28:22.349
I mean but in China you're not gonna find this

00:28:22.349 --> 00:28:24.450
You're not gonna find you know in the largest

00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:26.349
in the in the in the country that has the largest

00:28:26.349 --> 00:28:28.730
population of the world They're not necessarily

00:28:28.730 --> 00:28:31.869
opposed to any sort of sexual intercourse like

00:28:31.869 --> 00:28:35.309
these guys are and so they want total abstinence.

00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:39.430
Yeah Well, they they they weren't toe. I mean

00:28:39.430 --> 00:28:43.609
this was kind of where it gets fuzzy here They

00:28:43.609 --> 00:28:47.900
didn't like it. They didn't encourage it It was

00:28:47.900 --> 00:28:53.420
icky factor and you could even get punished for

00:28:53.420 --> 00:28:56.660
it what they really wanted which elements of

00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:59.799
the leadership to include Hong's cousin who was

00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.359
kind of a bit of a visionary and and Normal to

00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:04.880
some degree and he was part of the leadership.

00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:08.680
They were interested in that with American technology

00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:13.539
and They were perhaps sensing that missionaries

00:29:13.539 --> 00:29:18.390
were supportive of their cause a whole, you know

00:29:18.390 --> 00:29:22.369
in terms of reforming China and Putting in what

00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:25.589
they've considered all these good ideas ultimately

00:29:25.589 --> 00:29:29.930
Hold on before you go to that So I'm getting

00:29:29.930 --> 00:29:34.549
a very Vague idea here of what it is that they

00:29:34.549 --> 00:29:36.750
look to the United States for so you're saying

00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:38.609
that you're saying that they were inspired by

00:29:38.609 --> 00:29:41.410
the United States, right? They're asking like

00:29:41.410 --> 00:29:44.460
so what I'm kind of hearing from you is They

00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:46.380
like the technology that the United States had.

00:29:46.660 --> 00:29:51.160
In some kind of a weird mid -19th century Chinese

00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:53.059
way, they were kind of a women's rights movement,

00:29:53.460 --> 00:29:55.240
more foot binding, women were kind of equal.

00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:00.039
But I'm not seeing a lot of other US -inspired

00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.799
behavior or attitude here. What was their admiration

00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.640
for the United States then, really? Did they

00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:09.059
just not understand the United States at all?

00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:10.240
And they just thought those were the two things

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.579
that mattered? They understood the United States

00:30:12.579 --> 00:30:16.059
less well than we understood China. They got

00:30:16.059 --> 00:30:18.519
their view of the United States from the missionaries.

00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:23.259
No one had any firsthand contact with the United

00:30:23.259 --> 00:30:26.640
States at all. And so the United States was kind

00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.019
of like what they wanted it to be in their head.

00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:32.240
But what, I mean, okay, what did they think it

00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.339
was? What did they want? What was in their head

00:30:34.339 --> 00:30:36.829
is what I'm trying to ask here. I think the fact

00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:41.750
that you didn't have this aristocratic governance,

00:30:42.269 --> 00:30:45.589
like you would find at the court of the Manchus,

00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:47.809
that they didn't like. We got rid of the king.

00:30:48.009 --> 00:30:50.450
They wanted to get rid of the emperor. That's

00:30:50.450 --> 00:30:54.029
the foreign emperor, the foreign king. In this

00:30:54.029 --> 00:30:56.789
case, the king's not American, the king's British,

00:30:57.029 --> 00:31:00.630
and there might be some kinship ties there, but

00:31:00.630 --> 00:31:03.970
it's a totally different animal as far as they're

00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:06.579
concerned. And then they liked railroads. I mean,

00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:08.660
railroads was something that came up time and

00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:11.900
time again. The primary means for transportation

00:31:11.900 --> 00:31:15.839
in China are the rivers, then and now. I mean,

00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.960
that's still an important component of transportation.

00:31:19.059 --> 00:31:21.980
But they liked this idea of railroads as far

00:31:21.980 --> 00:31:24.460
as they understood it. And this was something

00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:30.079
that they were eager to gain technological understanding

00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:34.420
of and to import to China. It's not clear how

00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:36.880
they were going to do this because they would

00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.880
have to have defeated the Manchus, you know,

00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.099
in a kind of Armageddon style battle for them

00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:44.740
to be able to put something together like a railroad

00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:48.920
network in China. And they're not really controlling

00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:50.740
the entire country and they're controlling bits

00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:53.660
and pieces of it throughout the, throughout the

00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:58.019
period in which they're, they're active. So it's,

00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:00.299
it's, it's something that thinking is a good

00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:04.009
idea, but implementation is something that I

00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:06.089
don't think they ever got really round to. And

00:32:06.089 --> 00:32:08.990
I guess also America brought them Christianity.

00:32:09.109 --> 00:32:11.549
Yes. Which they credit for their entire movement

00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:13.970
in the first place. Yes. So they look to America

00:32:13.970 --> 00:32:17.950
for that reason as well. Yes. So the missionary

00:32:17.950 --> 00:32:20.009
aspect of it is an important component of why

00:32:20.009 --> 00:32:23.410
they look to America as a model. Yes. They thought

00:32:23.410 --> 00:32:42.019
that's what America was all about. Yes. America's

00:32:42.019 --> 00:32:44.240
leading officials in China were somewhat skeptical

00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:48.099
with US Consul Humphrey Marshall actually advocating

00:32:48.099 --> 00:32:51.240
giving aid to the Manchus. Now why is he doing

00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:55.380
this? His purpose and the focus of the American

00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:57.720
community in China outside of the missionaries

00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:02.680
is trade. And the Manchus have not been too bad

00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:06.970
in terms of providing positive trade agreements

00:33:06.970 --> 00:33:11.269
with America. There's after the, after the opium

00:33:11.269 --> 00:33:14.190
wars, America's gaining more and more access,

00:33:14.309 --> 00:33:17.910
more and more favorable opportunities, trying

00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:20.349
to expect that you would get the same thing or

00:33:20.349 --> 00:33:23.700
anything better from say a doomsday cult. who's

00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:29.640
being led by a crazy mystic who failed his examinations

00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:33.440
is probably beyond belief here, beyond anyone's

00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:38.039
imagination here. He also expected that the U

00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:41.099
.S. would lose ground trade -wise because he

00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:45.400
forecast correctly that the French and British

00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.359
would probably come in and intervene on the side

00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:52.279
of the Manchus and they would get even more concessions.

00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:54.869
than the United States would. And some of these

00:33:54.869 --> 00:33:57.349
concessions would probably come at the expense

00:33:57.349 --> 00:34:01.329
of U .S. influence on the trade arrangements.

00:34:02.329 --> 00:34:05.750
As it turned out, the predictions that Marshall

00:34:05.750 --> 00:34:10.170
was making were the correct ones. The French

00:34:10.170 --> 00:34:13.429
and British, first of all, they attacked China

00:34:13.429 --> 00:34:16.710
while it was engaged in the Taiping Rebellion.

00:34:16.730 --> 00:34:21.530
And then they got additional concessions as a

00:34:21.530 --> 00:34:24.849
result of this. Not so much at American expense,

00:34:24.869 --> 00:34:27.230
but they did get additional concessions. The

00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:30.170
other thing that Marshall got correct was that

00:34:30.170 --> 00:34:33.010
the British and the French did come in and assist

00:34:33.010 --> 00:34:37.449
the Manchus in the effort to squash the Taipangs.

00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:40.590
This actually led to his termination by the State

00:34:40.590 --> 00:34:42.690
Department, him sending these rather alarming

00:34:42.690 --> 00:34:46.730
dispatches. Now, as we're going to see in subsequent

00:34:46.730 --> 00:34:49.170
episodes, this would not be the last time that

00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:52.630
this would happen, that being right led to a

00:34:52.630 --> 00:34:56.429
U .S. official being cashiered because he knew

00:34:56.429 --> 00:35:00.469
too much. In fact, this is kind of a leitmotif

00:35:00.469 --> 00:35:03.650
that we will find. A pattern. A pattern, a behavior

00:35:03.650 --> 00:35:06.869
by the U .S. government with regard to people

00:35:06.869 --> 00:35:09.309
telling them things that they don't want to hear.

00:35:10.090 --> 00:35:14.389
So let me ask you then. Marshall was fired. Yes.

00:35:14.849 --> 00:35:19.590
For being right about France and Britain occurring

00:35:19.590 --> 00:35:22.949
favor with the Qing Dynasty, the Manchus. Yeah.

00:35:23.849 --> 00:35:28.250
And he was fired for saying that. What was it

00:35:28.250 --> 00:35:32.070
that people in Washington wanted to hear? That

00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:35.449
there was no threat from France or Britain? That...

00:35:35.150 --> 00:35:38.409
What was he being fired for? He was actually

00:35:38.409 --> 00:35:43.570
advocating that what was necessary was that we

00:35:43.570 --> 00:35:46.070
needed to send troops and forces to support the

00:35:46.070 --> 00:35:49.150
Manchus against the Taipings. And he said that

00:35:49.150 --> 00:35:51.809
if we didn't do this, the British and French

00:35:51.809 --> 00:35:56.010
are going to come in. And this was what Washington

00:35:56.010 --> 00:35:58.449
did not want to hear. They did not want to hear

00:35:58.449 --> 00:36:00.750
that, I mean, when you think about what the American

00:36:00.750 --> 00:36:03.929
military looked like, the idea that, I mean,

00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:07.869
hard enough to go and wage war in Texas and Mexico,

00:36:08.510 --> 00:36:11.550
but imagine trying to bring forces all the way

00:36:11.550 --> 00:36:14.610
over and provide some sort of military assistance

00:36:14.610 --> 00:36:19.019
to China when You're at the time you're dealing

00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:22.239
with california is just barely a state you have

00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.139
san francisco as the major metropolitan area

00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:28.139
And how do you get forces out there? Anyway,

00:36:28.300 --> 00:36:31.539
I mean this isn't he's not wrong But it's an

00:36:31.539 --> 00:36:33.920
impractical thing given the limitations of the

00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:36.139
time. What what year are we talking about? We're

00:36:36.139 --> 00:36:39.519
talking about like the 1850s here. Okay before

00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:41.659
the civil war. Yeah, and the u .s military is

00:36:41.659 --> 00:36:44.719
very small It's basically intended to go fight

00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.320
the Indians and those kind of things. It's not

00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:49.280
a big force at all. It's not like the army we

00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.239
have today. The Navy wasn't very big either.

00:36:53.139 --> 00:36:55.320
So I mean, the reason I'm bringing that up is,

00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:58.440
I mean, you're dealing with a country with, how

00:36:58.440 --> 00:36:59.420
many people are living in China at the time,

00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:01.480
400 million people or something? You got to send

00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:04.039
a few thousand guys there, tops. That would have

00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:05.559
stretched your resources, send a few thousand

00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:07.739
troops over there. Well, what are they gonna

00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:10.239
do exactly in this whole gigantic - Yeah, what's

00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:13.769
the plan? War, right? Yeah, I mean, that's a

00:37:13.769 --> 00:37:18.030
fair point. I don't know if it's worth getting

00:37:18.030 --> 00:37:20.809
fired over, but, you know, okay. We're gonna

00:37:20.809 --> 00:37:25.070
see this happen subsequently when we get to World

00:37:25.070 --> 00:37:30.250
War II, and kind of U .S. officials then basically

00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:33.449
making comments about the state on the ground

00:37:33.449 --> 00:37:37.880
here and how receptive the U .S. is to... that

00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:41.880
and what that leads to. The rebellion is eventually

00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:44.679
put down by a combination of forces. The British

00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:48.019
and French, you know, went in, defeated the Chinese

00:37:48.019 --> 00:37:51.059
in the second opium war, burned and looted the

00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:54.320
summer palace in Beijing. And then eventually

00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:57.699
you get an army made up of regional forces, not

00:37:57.699 --> 00:38:01.420
the imperial army. I mean, the distinction here

00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:04.710
is if you want to do a parallel, The Continental

00:38:04.710 --> 00:38:08.369
Army, it's not the centralized army, it's basically

00:38:08.369 --> 00:38:15.010
a pick -up game where you have Zhang Guokuan

00:38:15.010 --> 00:38:18.590
leading this and being assisted by General Gordon,

00:38:18.889 --> 00:38:22.199
who was later killed in Sudan. they're basically

00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:23.800
going in and putting this rebellion down. The

00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:25.320
British general. The British general. Chinese

00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:28.119
Gordon. He got the name Chinese Gordon from this.

00:38:28.659 --> 00:38:30.980
Yes. Yeah. Yes. So the main part of the rebellion

00:38:30.980 --> 00:38:34.280
is put down in 1864, but it's still going on.

00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:36.820
By the Zhong army. Yes. The army you're talking

00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:39.320
about. Not the imperial army. Not the imperial

00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.960
army, because he's going around recruiting and

00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:46.179
training from the regions. Right. It's a provincial

00:38:46.179 --> 00:38:49.030
army. There's a final siege of Nanjing. Which

00:38:49.030 --> 00:38:51.269
the jiang army eventually wins. Yeah and hong

00:38:51.269 --> 00:38:54.829
dies during the siege Yes, he ate wild vegetables

00:38:54.829 --> 00:38:58.170
and contracted food poisoning and died of that

00:38:58.170 --> 00:39:00.989
During during the siege because it's pretty soon

00:39:00.989 --> 00:39:03.530
after that nanjing fell but then you're saying

00:39:03.530 --> 00:39:05.210
that that the rebellion did continue though It

00:39:05.210 --> 00:39:07.590
wasn't actually over that there were pockets

00:39:07.590 --> 00:39:10.610
that continued on pockets of resistance And again,

00:39:10.610 --> 00:39:13.269
this is because you're not really, you know the

00:39:13.269 --> 00:39:15.829
ability for them to consolidate control over

00:39:15.829 --> 00:39:22.170
the areas that they went into, this just didn't

00:39:22.170 --> 00:39:25.610
happen. And if you look at a map of this, there

00:39:25.610 --> 00:39:27.869
are areas that they control and then there's

00:39:27.869 --> 00:39:29.989
areas in between the areas that they control

00:39:29.989 --> 00:39:33.750
that they never actually were able to operate

00:39:33.750 --> 00:39:36.070
under successfully. Apparently the last Taiping

00:39:36.070 --> 00:39:39.389
army was not wiped out until 1871. Yeah. So that

00:39:39.389 --> 00:39:41.730
was seven years after Hong's death and the fall

00:39:41.730 --> 00:39:54.260
of Nanjing. So it took a while. Yes. So in the

00:39:54.260 --> 00:39:57.960
aftermath of the Taiping rebellion, clearly things

00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.679
were not going well for the Manchus. And so turning

00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.420
our attention to what's happening in the court

00:40:04.420 --> 00:40:09.860
in Peking or Beijing, there were people in China

00:40:09.860 --> 00:40:12.900
at the court, not unlike the founders of the

00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:15.460
Meiji Reform Movement in Japan, that saw the

00:40:15.460 --> 00:40:19.199
necessity of acquiring Western technology and

00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.219
also initiating reforms throughout the empire.

00:40:22.429 --> 00:40:25.590
However, unlike these Japanese counterparts,

00:40:26.250 --> 00:40:29.590
these efforts were largely frustrated by other

00:40:29.590 --> 00:40:31.690
court officials who were more traditional -minded.

00:40:32.969 --> 00:40:35.849
Japan did not really face the same difficulties,

00:40:36.329 --> 00:40:40.190
and as a result, it was able to acquire Western

00:40:40.190 --> 00:40:44.070
technology, initiate Western reforms, and able

00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:46.389
to defeat China during the Sino -Japanese War

00:40:46.389 --> 00:40:50.690
of 1894 -95, which heralded its emergence as

00:40:50.690 --> 00:40:54.699
a great power. and provided, again, additional

00:40:54.699 --> 00:41:00.800
shock waves to the court in Peking there. But

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:04.840
what probably was a bigger shortcoming was that

00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:09.099
these repeated failures only served to undermine

00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:13.840
faith in the Manchu government and rule as the

00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:18.480
19th century wore on. The West, in contrast,

00:41:18.739 --> 00:41:22.409
offered a number of alternatives. not all of

00:41:22.409 --> 00:41:25.489
which involved declaring oneself as a kinsman

00:41:25.489 --> 00:41:30.369
of the Christian God. And this involved people

00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:33.849
from China actually immigrating to the United

00:41:33.849 --> 00:41:36.750
States. This was something that previously and

00:41:36.750 --> 00:41:41.449
earlier centuries would have resulted in being

00:41:41.449 --> 00:41:45.989
called a traitor or being referred to as committing

00:41:45.989 --> 00:41:49.389
treason. So Chinese were able to immigrate to

00:41:49.389 --> 00:41:52.579
the United States in any significant numbers,

00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.400
it would have been in response to the gold rush.

00:41:56.619 --> 00:42:02.900
The 1849 gold rush in California brought along

00:42:02.900 --> 00:42:06.480
a response from China. Yeah, a lot of Chinese

00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.699
came to the United States, came to California.

00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:13.539
And mining was like a profession that they kind

00:42:13.539 --> 00:42:16.039
of made their own when they came over here. They

00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.679
were actually better at it than Americans because

00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:23.860
they would patiently look for ore. They would

00:42:23.860 --> 00:42:25.840
go through and not just look for nuggets, but

00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.760
they would concentrate on dust, gold dust as

00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.280
well. And they were actually able to be very

00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:35.219
profitable with that and other forms of ore extraction.

00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:39.840
This became kind of like a signature profession

00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:42.679
for them during this period. So do you know that

00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:44.099
they developed that expertise when they came

00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:45.519
over here, or did they bring it with them from

00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:46.699
China? They brought it with them. So these are

00:42:46.699 --> 00:42:48.360
guys who had done mining in China. They brought

00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:50.579
over to be miners. Yeah. And they had good techniques.

00:42:51.099 --> 00:42:53.059
Yeah. Yeah, okay. Dominantly, they're all gonna

00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:57.079
be from the south. Okay. Southern China is gonna

00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:01.099
be, this is the gateway to the world, not only

00:43:01.099 --> 00:43:03.559
gateway into China, but it's the gateway out

00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:09.510
of China. and it's because trade is dynamic down

00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:19.250
there. And it promotes an attempt to go and leave.

00:43:20.710 --> 00:43:24.869
And the people who are doing this are fleeing

00:43:24.869 --> 00:43:29.619
from this society that's falling apart. they're

00:43:29.619 --> 00:43:33.119
also fleeing from you know the the the tai pang

00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:36.679
rebellion is actually acting as a spur to promote

00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:39.860
i mean do you really want to wake up one morning

00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:42.920
and find yourself being hustled into some sort

00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:45.860
of That where you're going to be burned to death

00:43:45.860 --> 00:43:48.000
with your nearest and dearest here or you're

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.980
going to go and try and and make a living Elsewhere

00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:53.579
so 20 or 30 million people died. That's a bad

00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:56.380
stretch of years to be in in China China Yeah,

00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:57.880
you could see why you might want to leave. Maybe

00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:00.340
I want to go find some gold over in the in the

00:44:00.340 --> 00:44:03.260
new world here Some of us dying. Yes. Yeah. Yeah,

00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:08.199
so Chinese immigration increased in the 1860s

00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:10.559
and Again, this is coming from the southern part

00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:14.860
the area around Canton population is land -hungry,

00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:18.360
and there's a desire to avoid the Taiping Rebellion.

00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:20.860
And there were railroad jobs. Well, we're getting

00:44:20.860 --> 00:44:25.440
to that. We are getting to that. This is going

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:31.539
to be like a huge opportunity for them. So American

00:44:31.539 --> 00:44:34.840
managers were impressed by the work ethic of

00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:39.960
Chinese workers. And like you said, they were

00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:43.019
able to pay them Less than regular Europeans

00:44:43.019 --> 00:44:46.099
and this makes them very popular for the railroad

00:44:46.099 --> 00:44:49.420
They're actually more self -sufficient because

00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:52.780
the Chinese are basically They're not given the

00:44:52.780 --> 00:44:55.380
same level of support, but they're able to they're

00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:58.760
able to do a lot more work They have a higher

00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.820
like I said a higher work ethic, but what we

00:45:01.820 --> 00:45:04.860
end up with and I found the statistic remarkable

00:45:06.059 --> 00:45:08.639
90 % of the workers involved in the construction

00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.179
of the Transcontinental Railroad were Chinese.

00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:14.559
90%. I didn't realize it was that many. I didn't

00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.159
realize it was that many. I knew there were a

00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:18.900
lot of them. I knew there was a lot, and I felt

00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:23.239
like it might be concentrated for one of the

00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:25.760
railroads that were involved in the development

00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.780
of the Transcontinental Railroad. But I went

00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:31.360
to a number of different sources to research

00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:35.050
that, and I kept getting... The best I could

00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:37.989
do that wasn't 90 % was 80%, and that's still

00:45:37.989 --> 00:45:40.489
rather high when you think about it. Question

00:45:40.489 --> 00:45:43.210
about that. Yes. So the Trans -Sentinel Railroad

00:45:43.210 --> 00:45:45.250
came from both directions. Yes. Are we talking

00:45:45.250 --> 00:45:47.510
about the part built from the west towards the

00:45:47.510 --> 00:45:49.309
east? From the west, yes. From the east towards

00:45:49.309 --> 00:45:51.989
the west was not full of Chinese rivers there.

00:45:52.230 --> 00:45:54.530
No, no. Yeah, it was that part. It's Union Pacific,

00:45:54.989 --> 00:45:59.739
it's, yes. It's South Pacific. It's those lines

00:45:59.739 --> 00:46:02.239
that are actually employing them. And this is

00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:05.300
actually the most dangerous and challenging environment

00:46:05.300 --> 00:46:09.699
that you have to contend with, the most unforgiving

00:46:09.699 --> 00:46:14.789
environment to try to move. to lay track down.

00:46:15.210 --> 00:46:17.250
Mountains, blizzards. Mountains, blizzards, yes.

00:46:17.690 --> 00:46:19.269
Canyons, all sorts of things. Now, the Chinese

00:46:19.269 --> 00:46:22.789
did not emerge from this unscathed. There was

00:46:22.789 --> 00:46:27.590
a high casualty rate and people think that it

00:46:27.590 --> 00:46:31.110
might be as many as 20 ,000 people perished in

00:46:31.110 --> 00:46:33.150
the construction of the Transcontinental Railroad.

00:46:33.710 --> 00:46:36.829
Chinese people. Chinese people. Yes. Just Chinese

00:46:36.829 --> 00:46:41.139
people. Were these the miners that were employed

00:46:41.139 --> 00:46:43.000
not to work on railroads, or was this a different

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.199
group of Chinese people that came over? It's

00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.460
not clear to me. They did bring over people to

00:46:48.460 --> 00:46:51.960
work the railroads. But this was after, this

00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.900
was not something that they did, you know, like,

00:46:54.940 --> 00:46:57.079
oh, let's go get some Chinese people. There were

00:46:57.079 --> 00:46:59.440
Chinese people working the railroads, and then

00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:03.360
because of... good work ethic, low pay, they

00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.000
became more popular. And so the railroads are

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.820
bringing over workers. Well, also, if you're

00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:09.460
going to build a railroad, I think probably miners

00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:11.679
are a good source of skilled labor for that because,

00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:13.860
you know, you're going to dig tunnels, things

00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:15.679
like that, right? You need guys that know how

00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:18.599
to swing a sledgehammer and a pickaxe and these

00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:20.179
kinds of things, right? So, I mean, they're going

00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:24.340
to be good at tunneling and, you know, dynamiting,

00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:26.400
these kinds of things, right? So, I mean, they'd

00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.159
be a natural source of labor, I think, for a

00:47:29.340 --> 00:47:31.159
Railroad. Particularly if they've been there

00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:35.420
for a while. After the Transcontinental Railroad

00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:39.679
was completed in 1869, the sentiment towards

00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.420
the Chinese declined. Anti -Chinese sentiment

00:47:43.420 --> 00:47:48.260
increased throughout the 1870s. Now, this was

00:47:48.260 --> 00:47:51.940
initiated by other blue collar workers who resented

00:47:51.940 --> 00:47:54.139
the willingness of the Chinese to work for lower

00:47:54.139 --> 00:47:57.800
wages and with fewer benefits. who were kind

00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:00.300
of pricing them out of the market so to speak.

00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:04.300
This was at the time where, and this was by no

00:48:04.300 --> 00:48:07.579
means limited to the Chinese or even the West

00:48:07.579 --> 00:48:09.619
Coast, but this was a tactic that was widely

00:48:09.619 --> 00:48:12.519
practiced on the East Coast and the Midwest where

00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:14.699
various ethnic groups are played off each other

00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:17.159
to the benefit of the owners of factories and

00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:21.000
businesses. Some of what we see today within

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.539
the U .S. political system where certain groups

00:48:23.539 --> 00:48:26.340
are randomly demonized to achieve the same results.

00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:31.619
Resistance to them the negative view of them

00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:34.860
an economic one strictly a labor issue or was

00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:37.219
there a xenophobia? Well, there's a phobic aspect

00:48:37.219 --> 00:48:40.139
as well I'd say it's both because you're looking

00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:42.920
at the other you're looking at people who's you

00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:46.179
know It's one thing to have to have very different

00:48:46.179 --> 00:48:49.199
people culturally. Yes, very different They dress

00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:50.920
very different all sorts of things, right? Well,

00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:55.079
you would have this over in on the East Coast

00:48:55.309 --> 00:48:57.849
And i mean like the big big example of this is

00:48:57.849 --> 00:49:01.469
irish versus poles here. Irish are coming over

00:49:01.469 --> 00:49:03.989
and they're already over here after the potato

00:49:03.989 --> 00:49:06.889
famine they continue to come over throughout

00:49:06.889 --> 00:49:10.670
the 19th century doing menial jobs but then you're

00:49:10.670 --> 00:49:12.750
getting people brought in from eastern europe

00:49:12.750 --> 00:49:17.710
who do look strange to them who do even though

00:49:17.710 --> 00:49:20.389
they have the same religion they go to different.

00:49:20.489 --> 00:49:23.449
Catholic churches. They appear strange. They

00:49:23.449 --> 00:49:26.070
don't have the same language and so forth. But

00:49:26.070 --> 00:49:29.030
the Chinese are that on steroids. I was going

00:49:29.030 --> 00:49:30.989
to say, it's got to be next level. It's the next

00:49:30.989 --> 00:49:33.949
level. Yeah, right. Because there's just, they

00:49:33.949 --> 00:49:37.650
don't look like they do. They're very different.

00:49:37.909 --> 00:49:39.389
Very different cultural and historical background.

00:49:39.389 --> 00:49:41.010
They're not just different, they're very different,

00:49:41.110 --> 00:49:43.329
exactly. You've got some eugenics still in there

00:49:43.329 --> 00:49:47.639
too. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, you know, Even

00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:50.380
when in the early stages for the railroads the

00:49:50.380 --> 00:49:54.860
average height for Chinese worker was 411 Wow,

00:49:55.159 --> 00:50:00.639
yeah Yeah, and so they're looking at this The

00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:03.400
the owners and they're like thinking can this

00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:06.179
actually work? And I mean there was a there was

00:50:06.179 --> 00:50:08.300
a there was an exchange with one of the railroad

00:50:08.489 --> 00:50:11.610
between one of the railroad tycoons and a counterpart.

00:50:12.170 --> 00:50:13.690
And one of them said, well, you know, they built

00:50:13.690 --> 00:50:16.610
that wall over there, so maybe they can build

00:50:16.610 --> 00:50:18.730
a railroad, you know, referring to the great

00:50:18.730 --> 00:50:22.070
wall over in China, but physically they were

00:50:22.070 --> 00:50:24.190
very different from what you would find in the

00:50:24.190 --> 00:50:29.610
Europeans and even somewhat smaller compared

00:50:29.610 --> 00:50:33.150
to the average European settler, average American.

00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:36.420
which vary depending on ethnicity and a lot of

00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:42.199
other factors. So yes, xenophobia, eugenics,

00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:44.980
all of these factors are coming in. And eugenics,

00:50:45.139 --> 00:50:48.500
because we're seeing that emerge because of Darwin's

00:50:48.500 --> 00:50:52.119
origin of species, it's coming out in 1858. You

00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:55.539
may not believe in the fact that people are descended

00:50:55.539 --> 00:50:58.159
from animals, but you do take a kind of view

00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.579
about various peoples that people will take on

00:51:01.579 --> 00:51:04.179
even though they're going to reject. you know,

00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:06.119
natural selection and all these other things

00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:08.219
that are happening. Well, they're going to reject

00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:10.860
it for humans versus animals, but they're going

00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:13.059
to adopt it and embrace it for humans versus

00:51:13.059 --> 00:51:15.219
humans. Yeah. There's natural selection between

00:51:15.219 --> 00:51:17.440
different races and such, right? They're going

00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:19.840
to dive in on that because that suits their purposes.

00:51:20.139 --> 00:51:25.179
And races is a word that is used far more broadly.

00:51:26.099 --> 00:51:29.179
You know, you can speak of the Anglo -Saxon race.

00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:32.579
You can talk about the English race, the Irish

00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:35.840
race, the German race, the Italian race. Those

00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:37.519
are different races in the parlance of the day.

00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:39.579
And these were supposed to have innate qualities

00:51:39.579 --> 00:51:45.400
to them. So what had happened was that free and

00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:47.860
easy immigration was permitted under something

00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:52.920
that was called the Bowling Game Treaty that

00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:59.300
came out in the late 1860s. By 1870, There was

00:51:59.300 --> 00:52:03.099
a naturalization act that was passed that extended

00:52:03.099 --> 00:52:06.460
citizen rights, at least in theory, to African

00:52:06.460 --> 00:52:10.739
Americans. It banned Chinese naturalization.

00:52:11.860 --> 00:52:14.900
So just to see where they are in the hierarchy

00:52:14.900 --> 00:52:20.739
there, they are not given even the remotest possibility

00:52:20.739 --> 00:52:24.280
of becoming citizens then, because it's assumed

00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:26.940
that Asians could never be assimilated into U

00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:29.960
.S. society. and they banned Chinese from voting

00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:33.320
or even serving on juries. So you're not a citizen,

00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:35.619
you never will be, you will never have those

00:52:35.619 --> 00:52:42.179
rights of citizenship. And then in 1875, and

00:52:42.179 --> 00:52:45.019
there was a basis for this, there was a fear

00:52:45.019 --> 00:52:47.679
about trafficking, but immigration of Chinese

00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:50.500
women was forbidden. And it was widely thought

00:52:50.500 --> 00:52:52.380
that if women are coming over here, they're coming

00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:55.559
over to be prostitutes. Some of them were, but

00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:00.539
that kind of denied people the ability to form

00:53:00.539 --> 00:53:03.679
family units, to create family organizations

00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:06.840
and things like that. It was forbidden by the

00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:10.300
Page Act. The Page Act, yes. And then acquiring

00:53:10.300 --> 00:53:13.840
land, you know, a right which US people enjoyed

00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.760
in China. Was forbidden as well and certain not

00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:21.199
under federal law, but under local laws in various

00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:23.900
areas out West So you want to put down roots

00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:25.739
and raise a family in your Chinese? We want you

00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:28.860
to go back to China. No and not do it here. That's

00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:30.239
what we're basically Well, we want to exploit

00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:33.559
you well sure and and and that's the end of that

00:53:33.559 --> 00:53:35.940
and then when you're Done being exploited and

00:53:35.940 --> 00:53:38.559
go back home and set up your family in your will

00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:41.269
die Well, okay, but you know, I'm not talking

00:53:41.269 --> 00:53:42.469
about that. I'm talking about what the Page Act

00:53:42.469 --> 00:53:44.869
is essentially doing. The Page Act is essentially

00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:46.349
saying, if you're gonna do those kind of things

00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:48.130
that Americans are gonna do, you can't do them

00:53:48.130 --> 00:53:48.989
here. You can't do them here, go back to China

00:53:48.989 --> 00:53:51.530
and do those things. Yes. So, I mean, we're talking

00:53:51.530 --> 00:53:54.289
less than second class citizenship here. We're

00:53:54.289 --> 00:53:56.750
talking several notches below. And then just

00:53:56.750 --> 00:54:00.650
to sort of illustrate this further. Plessé versus

00:54:00.650 --> 00:54:04.550
Ferguson, which is a famous Supreme Court decision

00:54:04.550 --> 00:54:08.510
that established the notion of separate but equal.

00:54:09.090 --> 00:54:11.769
There was a dissent by a guy named John Marshall

00:54:11.769 --> 00:54:14.650
Harlan who was one of the justices who objected

00:54:14.650 --> 00:54:19.250
to this and spoke out in favor of like, you know,

00:54:19.429 --> 00:54:21.289
African Americans ought to be able to enjoy full

00:54:21.289 --> 00:54:24.309
rights to citizens. In this dissent that he put

00:54:24.309 --> 00:54:29.230
out, he really Came down hard on Chinese and

00:54:29.230 --> 00:54:33.110
saying Chinese can never be Americans There that

00:54:33.110 --> 00:54:35.369
that he would he would say African Americans.

00:54:35.369 --> 00:54:39.630
Yes, but you know Asians know they're just too

00:54:39.630 --> 00:54:42.730
Far removed from the experience and I mean this

00:54:42.730 --> 00:54:47.070
is where you get this notion that that people

00:54:47.070 --> 00:54:54.039
are kind of like pre -programmed or that your

00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:56.920
ethnicity determines your attitude and your ability

00:54:56.920 --> 00:55:00.440
to function within certain societal norms there.

00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:02.199
I mean, it really treats different ethnicities

00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:04.340
as if they're different breeds of dogs. Yeah.

00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:06.340
It really does. I mean, that's an analogy to

00:55:06.340 --> 00:55:08.239
use. It totally dehumanizes them. Yeah, and it's

00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:10.199
like, you know, this breed of human behaves this

00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:12.059
way, and that breed behaves that way. It's not

00:55:12.059 --> 00:55:13.559
so much, you know, that's pretty much what you're

00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:17.949
saying. Yes. And this is... Again, this is your

00:55:17.949 --> 00:55:20.550
reward for building this transcontinental railroad.

00:55:21.090 --> 00:55:24.570
You know, you have worked, you've given lives,

00:55:24.650 --> 00:55:27.769
and we're going to treat you less than former

00:55:27.769 --> 00:55:30.050
slaves. Former enslaved people are going to be

00:55:30.050 --> 00:55:34.010
living life better, and that's pretty bad. Nobody

00:55:34.010 --> 00:55:38.750
wants to be living in the South. But we're gonna

00:55:38.750 --> 00:55:41.889
actually take active measures to prevent you

00:55:41.889 --> 00:55:45.670
at the federal level From enjoying any sort of

00:55:45.670 --> 00:55:49.530
benefit of living here Yeah, plus he was decided

00:55:49.530 --> 00:55:54.449
by the way in May of 1896. Yeah So this is this

00:55:54.449 --> 00:55:56.949
is this is the sentiment that goes on throughout.

00:55:57.170 --> 00:56:01.230
There's this sense of yellow peril as it was

00:56:01.230 --> 00:56:04.449
called that somehow the other Asians are gonna

00:56:04.449 --> 00:56:09.389
come in and totally change society, totally alter

00:56:09.389 --> 00:56:12.090
things. This sounds familiar, doesn't it? It

00:56:12.090 --> 00:56:13.949
sounds like stuff we're hearing now. This has

00:56:13.949 --> 00:56:16.989
come up before and came up since. Yes, it comes

00:56:16.989 --> 00:56:22.829
up. And yeah, maybe it does, but it's still,

00:56:23.670 --> 00:56:26.110
it doesn't undermine things to the degree that

00:56:26.110 --> 00:56:30.219
people think that they are. going to be undermined.

00:56:30.699 --> 00:56:33.300
Like, we got this in the New York mayoral campaign

00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:36.519
where, oh, New York City's gonna come under Sharia

00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:40.800
law, and meanwhile, Mondami is campaigning in

00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:43.900
gay bars, you know, so yeah, Sharia law. It's

00:56:43.900 --> 00:56:46.380
the same sort of thing, though. There are those

00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:51.019
who believe that this arrival of culturally and

00:56:51.019 --> 00:56:53.920
ethically different people is intrinsically weakening

00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:56.760
to society. Yeah. There are others who say it's

00:56:56.760 --> 00:57:00.019
intrinsically strengthening to society and then

00:57:00.019 --> 00:57:01.400
there's probably some who say it's kind of neutral

00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:03.820
depends on the person Right, but that's the debate

00:57:03.820 --> 00:57:06.800
that goes on between these two different ways

00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:09.820
of thinking about Other ethnicities coming into

00:57:09.820 --> 00:57:12.599
your little world you live in when you look at

00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:14.780
when you look at immigration That's going on

00:57:14.780 --> 00:57:17.719
with these other groups You might find people

00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:19.960
that are coming over trying to preserve as much

00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:22.300
of the old country as possible depending regardless

00:57:22.300 --> 00:57:24.860
of what continent we're talking about but then

00:57:24.860 --> 00:57:28.699
the second generation tends to want to assimilate

00:57:28.699 --> 00:57:34.860
more and become in tune with the society more

00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:37.780
than say the initial group that's in there it's

00:57:37.780 --> 00:57:41.079
not a hard and fast rule there is a certain sense

00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:45.139
that you get back then about people being part

00:57:45.139 --> 00:57:47.480
of a community of immigrants? Well, stereotypically,

00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:49.760
what tends to happen is the first generation

00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:51.639
comes in, they're from the old country, and of

00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:53.119
course, they're from there, so they retain the

00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:56.320
old ways. They may not learn, in the United States,

00:57:56.420 --> 00:57:58.219
they may not learn English or not be very good

00:57:58.219 --> 00:58:02.400
at English. The next generation is the first

00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:05.079
one born in, in our case, the United States.

00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:07.400
That generation grew up with the people from

00:58:07.400 --> 00:58:09.440
the old country, so they tend to be bilingual.

00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:12.219
But they tend to also be more immersed in the

00:58:12.219 --> 00:58:14.559
society in which they grew up and then their

00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:16.519
children the grandchildren the original immigrants

00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:20.480
become far more American they may lose their

00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:22.679
You know, they're the old country's language.

00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:24.400
They may not identify with the old country very

00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:26.719
much at all anymore Right. I mean this is how

00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:28.980
this kind of assimilation works. This is how

00:58:28.980 --> 00:58:31.780
this this would be the case that I have seen

00:58:31.780 --> 00:58:34.840
In my own family and it happens with all sorts

00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:36.320
of ethnic groups coming into the country over

00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:38.840
and over again. It's it's not Tied any particular

00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:41.300
ethnic group, you know having that experience.

00:58:41.300 --> 00:58:44.480
Yes, the American way It's the American way and

00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:47.579
then those people will get assimilated and then

00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:50.800
they'll try to Say that the new immigrants that

00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:53.059
are coming here can never become part of America

00:58:53.059 --> 00:58:55.579
because the American tradition also is no one

00:58:55.579 --> 00:58:57.940
after me No one after me. That's right. I should

00:58:57.940 --> 00:59:00.400
be the last time I should be the last one. Yeah

00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:16.300
The the problem with China coming to America

00:59:16.300 --> 00:59:19.320
all these Chinese people coming to America resulted

00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.860
in the first limitation on immigration and that

00:59:22.860 --> 00:59:25.679
was in 1882 and this was the Chinese Exclusion

00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.960
Act and This was passed in response to complaints

00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:33.820
by European American workers and it expressly

00:59:33.820 --> 00:59:36.780
prohibited The further immigration of Chinese

00:59:36.780 --> 00:59:39.239
workers. This wasn't a quota. No one could come

00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:42.710
and do this And it left them outside the protection

00:59:42.710 --> 00:59:44.690
that was provided by law to any of the other

00:59:44.690 --> 00:59:48.130
groups that existed in the united states It kind

00:59:48.130 --> 00:59:52.730
of so so if you were here Already, yeah You had

00:59:52.730 --> 00:59:55.269
less protection under the law than other. Yes

00:59:55.269 --> 00:59:59.690
people here. Yes, okay That was that was the

00:59:59.690 --> 01:00:02.530
that was the original intent for this and what

01:00:02.530 --> 01:00:04.329
does that mean? What what what what what does

01:00:04.329 --> 01:00:06.989
it mean in terms of less protection? Well, you

01:00:06.989 --> 01:00:11.079
could be singled out You know, I mean, at the

01:00:11.079 --> 01:00:13.840
time when we're talking 1882, you do have the

01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.400
14th amendment that's in existence. And there

01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:20.019
is, of course, the equal protection clause. What

01:00:20.019 --> 01:00:22.960
we're going to find is the Chinese are going

01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:27.380
to respond to this by forming professional groups,

01:00:27.559 --> 01:00:31.219
societies, et cetera. And they would litigate

01:00:31.219 --> 01:00:34.400
this. And the first time that equal protection,

01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:38.250
and this goes up before the Supreme Court, the

01:00:38.250 --> 01:00:41.329
first time that equal protection becomes evoked

01:00:41.329 --> 01:00:45.329
as doctrine is in one of these cases involving

01:00:45.329 --> 01:00:49.090
limitations that the city of San Francisco had

01:00:49.090 --> 01:00:53.829
placed on the operation of Chinese laundries.

01:00:54.519 --> 01:00:57.139
and they were intended to keep Chinese people

01:00:57.139 --> 01:01:01.059
from being able to work in the laundry business

01:01:01.059 --> 01:01:05.780
by putting up statutes and things, health restrictions

01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:10.679
and so forth. And they formed an association,

01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:12.900
the people affected by this, Chinese people affected

01:01:12.900 --> 01:01:15.300
by this, and they litigated it and basically

01:01:15.300 --> 01:01:19.300
they disputed this on the basis of the Equal

01:01:19.300 --> 01:01:21.789
Protection Clause under the 14th Amendment. The

01:01:21.789 --> 01:01:24.250
suit that drew on the Equal Protection Clause

01:01:24.250 --> 01:01:28.849
in the 14th Amendment was the 1886 Yick Vue versus

01:01:28.849 --> 01:01:33.070
Hopkins Suit that was heard at the Supreme Court

01:01:33.070 --> 01:01:36.130
level So we passed a law saying that you didn't

01:01:36.130 --> 01:01:38.530
have equal protection if you were Chinese Yes

01:01:38.530 --> 01:01:40.309
in violation of the Equal Protection Clause of

01:01:40.309 --> 01:01:43.769
the 14th Exactly amendment. So how'd they do

01:01:43.769 --> 01:01:47.510
in court? They won. Yeah, okay I mean, basically,

01:01:47.730 --> 01:01:50.369
it did not overturn the Chinese Exclusion Act,

01:01:50.429 --> 01:01:54.710
but it overturned this local restriction in San

01:01:54.710 --> 01:01:57.829
Francisco that limited their ability to be able

01:01:57.829 --> 01:01:59.550
to set up laundries and operate them. Because

01:01:59.550 --> 01:02:01.469
you're allowed to regulate who comes into the

01:02:01.469 --> 01:02:03.829
country. Yes. You are allowed to do that. Yes.

01:02:03.829 --> 01:02:06.650
And you can do it by nationality. Yes. That's

01:02:06.650 --> 01:02:08.739
not covered by... the constitution say you have

01:02:08.739 --> 01:02:10.739
to let everybody in regardless of yes now there

01:02:10.739 --> 01:02:13.840
there is but once you're here you're supposed

01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:16.059
to have equal protection under the law once you're

01:02:16.059 --> 01:02:18.940
here yeah which again if we're talking about

01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:21.739
current events this is something that we see

01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:27.000
people questioning but going back to the time

01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:30.780
in which these protections were put in as constitutional

01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:34.239
amendments and it's not that much different then

01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:39.519
and now i mean it's it's it's still People want

01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:43.079
to question this and want to somehow make it

01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:46.659
less available, make freedoms, laws, restrictions

01:02:46.659 --> 01:02:50.300
of government less available to people. Meanwhile,

01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:53.519
back in China, US missionaries continued to increase

01:02:53.519 --> 01:02:56.820
their presence throughout the 19th century. Although

01:02:56.820 --> 01:02:58.900
many Americans regarded the Chinese people as

01:02:58.900 --> 01:03:01.320
undesirable in the United States, this sentiment

01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:06.309
did not exclude armies of missionaries. dispatched

01:03:06.309 --> 01:03:10.010
to preach the gospel, operate hospitals and schools,

01:03:10.469 --> 01:03:13.269
and send some of the more promising students

01:03:13.269 --> 01:03:16.489
of these schools to America for further instruction.

01:03:16.929 --> 01:03:21.469
This is one avenue of access to America that

01:03:21.469 --> 01:03:24.250
was not expressly forbidden by the Chinese Exclusion

01:03:24.250 --> 01:03:27.130
Act. And this would be kind of an avenue that

01:03:27.130 --> 01:03:31.489
people in China, which was, as it developed,

01:03:31.769 --> 01:03:35.679
its own kind of Western -oriented elite, would

01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:40.420
use as a means of gaining an impression of the

01:03:40.420 --> 01:03:45.179
world through United States eyes. However, even

01:03:45.179 --> 01:03:50.619
with this approach to try and better the lives

01:03:50.619 --> 01:03:54.000
of people in China, Western missionaries were

01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.239
still regarded with suspicion by a large percentage

01:03:56.239 --> 01:04:02.639
of the population. In 1899 to 1901, the Boxer

01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:05.500
Rebellion specifically targeted missionaries

01:04:05.500 --> 01:04:08.639
during the uprising. We will discuss the Boxer

01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:11.280
Rebellion in a later episode in much more detail,

01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:14.199
but for now, let's summarize it briefly. For

01:04:14.199 --> 01:04:17.920
listeners who don't know, there was an uprising

01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:21.480
in China against foreign influence from 1899

01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:26.730
to 1901 called the Boxer Rebellion. It was an

01:04:26.730 --> 01:04:28.929
uprising by a group called the Society of Righteous

01:04:28.929 --> 01:04:33.909
and Harmonious Fists. And they did Chinese martial

01:04:33.909 --> 01:04:35.769
arts to practice. They thought that by practicing

01:04:35.769 --> 01:04:38.369
those martial arts, they would make them immune

01:04:38.369 --> 01:04:41.590
from Western bullets and artillery ammunition,

01:04:41.829 --> 01:04:45.389
which it did not do to their displeasure when

01:04:45.389 --> 01:04:47.250
they wound up fighting with the West. Anyway,

01:04:47.429 --> 01:04:49.730
when they did these movements, the Westerners

01:04:49.730 --> 01:04:51.610
called that in English, they called it Chinese

01:04:51.610 --> 01:04:54.730
boxing. And so they became known as the boxers.

01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:57.139
And the Boxers were quite a violent movement.

01:04:58.519 --> 01:05:03.199
They murdered European diplomats in Chinese cities.

01:05:03.780 --> 01:05:09.039
They engaged in terrible attacks on these missionaries

01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:10.460
that they were so upset with because they thought

01:05:10.460 --> 01:05:12.000
they were undermining and destroying Chinese

01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:16.000
society. They would hold mass executions where

01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:18.820
they would take missionaries and behead parents

01:05:18.820 --> 01:05:20.559
in front of their children and then the children

01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:22.719
as well and all sorts of awful things happened.

01:05:23.579 --> 01:05:27.019
During this the attack started in 1899 and by

01:05:27.019 --> 01:05:30.699
1900 they had besieged the foreign legations

01:05:30.699 --> 01:05:34.679
in Peking which is now known as Beijing of course

01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:38.679
There was something like 900 European civilian

01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:42.480
European and Japanese and American civilians

01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:46.460
Soldiers Marines sailors various military personnel

01:05:46.460 --> 01:05:50.489
in Peking And also about 2 ,800 Chinese Christians,

01:05:50.570 --> 01:05:52.309
because the Boxers were also slaughtering all

01:05:52.309 --> 01:05:53.690
the Chinese Christians they could get their hands

01:05:53.690 --> 01:05:55.710
on, because they didn't like the Christian influence

01:05:55.710 --> 01:05:59.610
in China. And it's an epic story, The Defense

01:05:59.610 --> 01:06:01.929
of the Legations, as they were called there.

01:06:02.309 --> 01:06:04.989
There's a movie, 1963 movie, Charlton Heston,

01:06:05.329 --> 01:06:07.769
I think David Niven's in it. Ava Gardner. Ava

01:06:07.769 --> 01:06:10.610
Gardner, 55 Days at Peking, which is a fun movie

01:06:10.610 --> 01:06:15.389
if you've never seen it. They held out for 55

01:06:15.389 --> 01:06:17.929
days, that's where the title comes from. Against

01:06:17.929 --> 01:06:19.889
overwhelming numbers of Chinese is actually one

01:06:19.889 --> 01:06:22.489
of the most amazing stories and in Western and

01:06:22.489 --> 01:06:25.769
Japanese and American military history Eventually

01:06:25.769 --> 01:06:28.730
what happened is the eight nations alliance formed

01:06:28.730 --> 01:06:32.909
The eight nations were the United States Japan

01:06:32.909 --> 01:06:35.949
and six European countries So that was Austria

01:06:35.949 --> 01:06:39.150
-Hungary Italy France the United Kingdom Russia

01:06:39.150 --> 01:06:42.289
and Germany All of whom sent troops and they

01:06:42.289 --> 01:06:43.929
launched a couple of expeditions from the Chinese

01:06:43.929 --> 01:06:46.989
coast up to Peking to relieve the legations the

01:06:46.989 --> 01:06:48.690
siege of the legations The first one was defeated

01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:50.969
on the way. The second one was much bigger. It

01:06:50.969 --> 01:06:55.250
made it it lifted the siege of the legations

01:06:55.250 --> 01:06:57.800
at Peking and that eventually the the occupation

01:06:57.800 --> 01:06:59.840
of Peking eventually led to the collapse of the

01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:03.760
Boxer Rebellion and actually Westerners and the

01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:06.219
Japanese gained even more influence over China

01:07:06.219 --> 01:07:08.300
than they had before. So in that sense the Boxer

01:07:08.300 --> 01:07:10.539
Rebellion completely backfired. A lot of the

01:07:10.539 --> 01:07:12.880
Boxers at Western insistence and Japanese insistence

01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:14.900
were executed for what they had done, you know

01:07:14.900 --> 01:07:16.559
killing missionaries and things and things like

01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:19.019
that. But it was it was quite a bloody affair,

01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:21.760
quite a dramatic affair, quite a interesting

01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:25.719
part of Chinese history and of Western and Japanese

01:07:25.719 --> 01:07:29.679
and American military history. So in the Japanese,

01:07:30.059 --> 01:07:33.059
they had kind of acquitted themselves well within

01:07:33.059 --> 01:07:37.559
the Sino -Japanese War, which had occurred two

01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:42.320
or three years before. 1894, 1895 was the first

01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:45.980
Sino -Japanese War, as it was called. Yes, and

01:07:45.980 --> 01:07:49.559
to the extent that people in the West were actually

01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:54.059
thinking, again applying eugenics, that the Japanese

01:07:54.059 --> 01:07:57.260
could become white people as a result of taking

01:07:57.260 --> 01:07:59.639
on all these Western values. There's a very good

01:07:59.639 --> 01:08:01.900
book that I recommend for anyone who's interested

01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:04.360
called The Siege at Peking by, if I have the

01:08:04.360 --> 01:08:05.920
author's name right, Peter Fleming, I think his

01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:07.599
name is. Yeah. I forget when the book was written,

01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:10.980
but it's quite a good book on the siege. And

01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:13.300
one thing he remarks about is how the Japanese,

01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.760
who the Europeans and Americans had looked down

01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:20.789
upon as being, you know, an inferior race. for

01:08:20.789 --> 01:08:23.069
the first time were alongside fighting alongside

01:08:23.069 --> 01:08:25.229
the europeans and the americans against the common

01:08:25.229 --> 01:08:27.210
enemy and they were extremely impressed with

01:08:27.210 --> 01:08:32.689
the japanese uh... professionalism military professionalism

01:08:32.689 --> 01:08:35.489
and uh... tactical abilities these kinds of things

01:08:35.489 --> 01:08:38.569
and japanese emerged from from the the the box

01:08:38.569 --> 01:08:40.529
rebellion and the defense of the legations of

01:08:40.529 --> 01:08:43.449
p king with a very enhanced reputation among

01:08:43.449 --> 01:08:45.109
the uh... the other great powers they really

01:08:45.109 --> 01:08:48.060
came on the scene as as a Great power in their

01:08:48.060 --> 01:08:51.359
own right. Yes at around that time and this is

01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:55.100
only 20 years after the meiji revolution more

01:08:55.100 --> 01:08:59.100
or less That was 1868 was the restoration. So

01:08:59.100 --> 01:09:02.300
you're talking about 32 years later, I guess

01:09:02.300 --> 01:09:05.239
Right. Yeah, 32 32 years is when the boxer rebellion

01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:08.000
was at its peak in 1900. So around that. Yeah

01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:12.920
Yeah, so 30 years But that's kind of remarkable

01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:15.920
to become a great power in that period of time.

01:09:16.140 --> 01:09:19.500
Before that you were basically dealing with a

01:09:19.500 --> 01:09:22.359
country that was afraid to know what to do about

01:09:22.359 --> 01:09:24.720
Matthew Perry landing. Yeah, the emergence of

01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:27.420
Japan on the scene as a great power is an amazing

01:09:27.420 --> 01:09:29.340
story on its own, right? We don't have time for

01:09:29.340 --> 01:09:32.539
that here, so we'll press on, but it is a fascinating

01:09:32.539 --> 01:09:35.000
story. It will come to play a greater role in

01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:39.199
our story later on as we get into World War II.

01:09:39.369 --> 01:09:41.569
World War II era. So Boxer Blank gets put down,

01:09:41.750 --> 01:09:48.449
1901, and then? Meanwhile, Christianity is becoming

01:09:48.449 --> 01:09:52.250
far more influential among certain groups within

01:09:52.250 --> 01:09:56.789
China, and one of the people that we might want

01:09:56.789 --> 01:10:01.750
to focus in at this point is Charlie Tsung, or

01:10:01.750 --> 01:10:05.829
Charlie Tsung, who is a remarkable figure in

01:10:05.829 --> 01:10:10.239
so many ways, and one who's whose own role in

01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:14.520
the U .S. and China story is going to be remarkable,

01:10:14.539 --> 01:10:18.100
and his family even remarkable still. In some

01:10:18.100 --> 01:10:22.460
respects, the Song dynasty is going to take the

01:10:22.460 --> 01:10:27.319
place of the Manchus in many ways here. So he

01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:30.539
was like a lot of people that we've looked at.

01:10:30.699 --> 01:10:34.380
He was from the southern part of China, and like

01:10:34.380 --> 01:10:37.159
the members of the Taiping rebellion, he was

01:10:37.159 --> 01:10:43.359
a Hakka Han. By 1894, he was a successful businessman

01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:47.920
in Shanghai, a city that was more or less founded

01:10:47.920 --> 01:10:53.000
on backs of foreign trade. He was also a member

01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:57.899
of a revolutionary organization. He got his start

01:10:57.899 --> 01:11:00.739
coming to America. He kind of stowed away on

01:11:00.739 --> 01:11:03.619
a ship after working in his uncle's shop in Boston,

01:11:04.159 --> 01:11:07.199
went there to North Carolina. worked in a printing

01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:11.180
office, and then from there, he was picked up

01:11:11.180 --> 01:11:14.300
by Methodists, who saw him as someone who could

01:11:14.300 --> 01:11:19.020
become a missionary and a minister. And so he

01:11:19.020 --> 01:11:22.199
got a crash course at what later became Duke

01:11:22.199 --> 01:11:25.100
University, and then subsequently he went to

01:11:25.100 --> 01:11:27.939
train for the ministry at Vanderbilt. When he

01:11:27.939 --> 01:11:31.399
returned to China, like I said, he did not really

01:11:31.399 --> 01:11:35.510
find missionary work all that fulfilling. and

01:11:35.510 --> 01:11:39.810
gradually drifted into, he still stayed in touch

01:11:39.810 --> 01:11:43.609
with missionaries, but he found it more profitable

01:11:43.609 --> 01:11:46.869
to print English language bibles and American

01:11:46.869 --> 01:11:50.869
technical manuals and instruction books at cut

01:11:50.869 --> 01:11:55.029
rate prices, because he knew certain ways that

01:11:55.029 --> 01:12:00.270
he could do this at a lower cut rate cost than

01:12:00.270 --> 01:12:04.039
many of his competitors within there. With this,

01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:06.560
he joins a revolutionary group called the Red

01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:10.899
Gang, and this organization had its roots and

01:12:10.899 --> 01:12:14.720
movements to reinstate the Ming dynasty. Again,

01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:17.779
we're getting into this Chinese Han hostility

01:12:17.779 --> 01:12:21.960
towards the Manchus here. But now it emerged

01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:27.399
in part due to Western influence as a Republican

01:12:27.399 --> 01:12:32.390
revolutionary force. So 1894 was a big year for

01:12:32.390 --> 01:12:34.689
Charlie Seung, because he made the most important

01:12:34.689 --> 01:12:37.489
connection in his life, and this is when he met

01:12:37.489 --> 01:12:40.350
Sun Yat -sen at a Sunday service in a Methodist

01:12:40.350 --> 01:12:43.750
church in Shanghai. Two men are kindred spirits,

01:12:44.170 --> 01:12:47.670
they both share Western education, Hakka ancestry,

01:12:48.670 --> 01:12:51.789
and the Christian faith, and a burning ambition

01:12:51.789 --> 01:12:55.409
and craving for change in China. Perhaps most

01:12:55.409 --> 01:12:59.289
importantly, they were both members of anti -Qing

01:12:59.289 --> 01:13:02.710
triads, and they became good friends and Charlie

01:13:02.710 --> 01:13:05.930
started funding Sun's revolutionary campaigns.

01:13:06.949 --> 01:13:10.829
The first of these failed in 1895, in which Sun

01:13:10.829 --> 01:13:14.899
initially flees to Hawaii Which was then not

01:13:14.899 --> 01:13:16.760
part of the United States and not subject to

01:13:16.760 --> 01:13:20.380
the Chinese Exclusion Act Sun actually had a

01:13:20.380 --> 01:13:23.439
great deal of fondness for Hawaii He referred

01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:26.460
to as his spiritual home on numerous occasions

01:13:26.460 --> 01:13:29.859
and he was educated at the Iolani school and

01:13:29.859 --> 01:13:34.420
what later became the Punahou School, which whose

01:13:34.420 --> 01:13:40.500
most famous alumnus is Barack Obama so Sun actually

01:13:40.500 --> 01:13:46.250
first arrived in Hawaii when he was 10 years

01:13:46.250 --> 01:13:50.510
old, when he began his education there, he attended

01:13:50.510 --> 01:13:55.869
secondary school. He attended Iolani, as you

01:13:55.869 --> 01:13:57.810
mentioned, and the reason I'm bringing this up

01:13:57.810 --> 01:13:59.750
is it just shows, again, there is another missionary

01:13:59.750 --> 01:14:01.649
connection, you know, it's outside of China,

01:14:02.550 --> 01:14:05.430
where Iolani was actually founded as the principal

01:14:05.430 --> 01:14:08.409
school of the Anglican Church of Hawaii, which

01:14:08.409 --> 01:14:10.050
would later become part of the Episcopal Church

01:14:10.050 --> 01:14:11.369
of the United States when Hawaii became part

01:14:11.369 --> 01:14:15.189
of the United States. That was the official church

01:14:15.189 --> 01:14:18.529
of the Kingdom of Hawaii at the time. So there's

01:14:18.529 --> 01:14:21.149
that angle. He graduated from Eilani, and then

01:14:21.149 --> 01:14:23.470
he went to what at the time was known as Oahu

01:14:23.470 --> 01:14:26.050
College. It later was renamed Punahou School.

01:14:26.789 --> 01:14:29.630
He attended that for a semester. Now, Punahou

01:14:29.630 --> 01:14:32.369
was founded by New England missionaries, Congregationalists.

01:14:33.869 --> 01:14:38.850
Back in 1841 so again you had Christian missionary

01:14:38.850 --> 01:14:41.649
influence directly or indirectly on him during

01:14:41.649 --> 01:14:45.329
his years of secondary education certainly and

01:14:45.329 --> 01:14:49.909
By 1883 he had become so interested Sun had become

01:14:49.909 --> 01:14:51.550
so interested in Christianity that his brother

01:14:51.550 --> 01:14:54.430
who he was living with in Hawaii Sent him back

01:14:54.430 --> 01:14:56.949
to China to try to stop him from from becoming

01:14:56.949 --> 01:14:59.390
Christian his brother didn't want him to do that

01:14:59.390 --> 01:15:02.810
But it took and and he became soon became Christian

01:15:02.890 --> 01:15:04.670
And then that leads on to what you were talking

01:15:04.670 --> 01:15:09.729
about there in the 1890s. Yes. So, after the

01:15:09.729 --> 01:15:15.449
first failure to overthrow the Manchus... Sun

01:15:15.449 --> 01:15:18.590
spent a lot of time in exile, going back and

01:15:18.590 --> 01:15:21.869
forth, North America, Hawaii, Japan, Europe,

01:15:22.430 --> 01:15:25.869
other parts of Asia, seeking funds from the Chinese

01:15:25.869 --> 01:15:30.670
diaspora, in many cases, and trying to overthrow

01:15:30.670 --> 01:15:33.170
the Manchus in order to replace them with Republic.

01:15:33.649 --> 01:15:38.850
Now, this Republic is not... maybe be called

01:15:38.850 --> 01:15:42.449
something not unlike what we call ourselves,

01:15:42.449 --> 01:15:46.069
but he was not necessarily intending to replicate

01:15:46.069 --> 01:15:49.729
the United States, at least not at first. Sun

01:15:49.729 --> 01:15:54.149
basically thought that the Chinese were not prepared

01:15:54.149 --> 01:16:00.350
for self government. He insisted on a period

01:16:00.350 --> 01:16:03.409
in which there would be sort of control at the

01:16:03.409 --> 01:16:06.859
top. Revolution would be handled at the top.

01:16:06.979 --> 01:16:08.920
The development of democratic traditions would

01:16:08.920 --> 01:16:15.159
come from the top. He did favor a similar governmental

01:16:15.159 --> 01:16:18.500
organization. There would be a executive, there

01:16:18.500 --> 01:16:21.000
would be a legislative, and there would be a

01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:24.439
judicial branch, but he also saw something as

01:16:25.499 --> 01:16:28.279
Two other branches one that would be in charge

01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:31.899
of purification Kind of getting rid of vice suppressing

01:16:31.899 --> 01:16:35.100
vice and the other one into promoting needed

01:16:35.100 --> 01:16:37.840
reforms now how this would all work together

01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:41.060
I'm not sure how that would work together given

01:16:41.060 --> 01:16:44.920
our own understanding of how the three -part

01:16:44.920 --> 01:16:47.439
system of government will work But these were

01:16:47.439 --> 01:16:50.829
supposed to be co -equal to the other ones So,

01:16:50.989 --> 01:16:52.529
well he, I mean, and remember too, it's fair

01:16:52.529 --> 01:16:55.189
to say that he was dealing with a very corrupt

01:16:55.189 --> 01:16:57.510
government in China that he was seeing around

01:16:57.510 --> 01:17:01.050
him. The Qing dynasty was riddled with corruption

01:17:01.050 --> 01:17:04.430
and incompetence and all of that, right? So you

01:17:04.430 --> 01:17:06.189
can see why he would think that that was a major

01:17:06.189 --> 01:17:08.069
thing that his new government would have to address.

01:17:08.270 --> 01:17:10.130
Yes. Because that was a root and branch problem

01:17:10.130 --> 01:17:12.250
in Chinese society at the time and he saw it.

01:17:12.289 --> 01:17:16.550
Still is. Well, yeah. So, yeah, it makes sense

01:17:16.550 --> 01:17:17.850
that he'd want to do something like that. It

01:17:17.850 --> 01:17:19.310
would be different from trying to found the United

01:17:19.310 --> 01:17:22.199
States, certainly. He would also frequently cite

01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:24.220
American historical figures such as Washington,

01:17:24.460 --> 01:17:26.859
Jackson, and Lincoln when discussing his revolutionary

01:17:26.859 --> 01:17:31.399
goals. And eventually, I mean, the dates on this

01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:36.720
are, it's either 1911 or 1912, when we can date

01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:39.079
the Manchus as being overthrown, but they were,

01:17:39.220 --> 01:17:42.260
and Sund was proclaimed as president of the Provincial

01:17:42.260 --> 01:17:44.859
Republic. He proclaimed the new government at

01:17:44.859 --> 01:17:47.640
the end of 1911, I think is where the difference

01:17:47.640 --> 01:17:52.529
comes in. the last emperor of China, right, he

01:17:52.529 --> 01:17:55.229
finally abdicated in February 1912. So the dynasty

01:17:55.229 --> 01:17:57.369
ended in 1912, but actually they were, for all

01:17:57.369 --> 01:17:59.590
practical purposes, already overthrown by 1911.

01:17:59.609 --> 01:18:01.810
It's only about a less than two month difference,

01:18:02.329 --> 01:18:04.970
but that's where the confusion comes in. And

01:18:04.970 --> 01:18:07.069
given where the emperors were, most of them were

01:18:07.069 --> 01:18:11.210
like infants or children or minors at any event

01:18:11.210 --> 01:18:15.890
in the last three or four. The Dowager emperors

01:18:15.890 --> 01:18:21.770
ran China at the time. because the Emperor was

01:18:21.770 --> 01:18:24.949
in his infancy. Yes. And she kind of liked that.

01:18:25.270 --> 01:18:28.890
She liked the fact that she had someone who really

01:18:28.890 --> 01:18:30.970
had no opinions and could be kind of distracted

01:18:30.970 --> 01:18:33.770
by the court culture. The movie The Last Emperor

01:18:33.770 --> 01:18:36.409
is about him, right? Yes. Puyi was the last.

01:18:36.430 --> 01:18:40.069
Puyi, yes. Who had a very interesting career

01:18:40.069 --> 01:18:43.829
of his own there. That's for another time. That

01:18:43.829 --> 01:19:00.090
is for another time. Sun Yat -sen, Sung, are

01:19:00.090 --> 01:19:04.789
coming out of, are influenced by U .S. Christian

01:19:04.789 --> 01:19:06.949
missionaries. We've established that, right?

01:19:07.550 --> 01:19:10.489
They go to China. They want to clean China up.

01:19:10.609 --> 01:19:12.550
They want to get rid of the corrupt Manchu government.

01:19:12.930 --> 01:19:15.529
They want to create a republic of some kind,

01:19:15.670 --> 01:19:22.350
right? So to what extent is that a Christian

01:19:22.350 --> 01:19:26.800
effort? To what extent is it a Chinese patriotic

01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:28.979
nationalist effort in their part? I assume they

01:19:28.979 --> 01:19:31.239
those two overlap somehow they do and you can

01:19:31.239 --> 01:19:33.039
explain this to me now, right? That's what I'm

01:19:33.039 --> 01:19:35.380
getting at here, right? So what what's the relationship

01:19:35.380 --> 01:19:38.159
between those two? In other words, if the US

01:19:38.159 --> 01:19:39.859
missionaries are coming because they want to

01:19:39.859 --> 01:19:42.560
evangelize everybody I don't know that they care

01:19:42.560 --> 01:19:44.399
that much whether it's a Manchu dynasty or a

01:19:44.399 --> 01:19:46.000
new Republic of China while they're doing that

01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:48.020
as long as everybody gets evangelized, right

01:19:48.020 --> 01:19:52.199
if and then if if sung and sung and son Come

01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:54.100
and and they want to then create a new governmental

01:19:54.100 --> 01:19:57.319
system there, right? That's two different things

01:19:57.319 --> 01:20:00.819
So equate kind of equate those two how you're

01:20:00.819 --> 01:20:03.260
saying the us missionary influence had something

01:20:03.260 --> 01:20:08.140
to do with Creating this new china Just just

01:20:08.140 --> 01:20:09.640
lay that out. I mean I can think of things, but

01:20:09.640 --> 01:20:11.500
I don't know what you're thinking. Well, my thinking

01:20:11.500 --> 01:20:16.180
is that There's a another element that we always

01:20:16.180 --> 01:20:19.279
have to consider when dealing with both of them

01:20:19.279 --> 01:20:23.439
and that is the Manchus are regarded as an alien

01:20:23.439 --> 01:20:28.560
invading force that's ruling over Han China and

01:20:28.560 --> 01:20:32.000
their Manchurian and that is a distinction which

01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:34.220
both men would have appreciated particularly

01:20:34.220 --> 01:20:36.760
if they're Hakkas which means that they were

01:20:36.760 --> 01:20:39.279
like kicked out of the north forced to relocate

01:20:39.279 --> 01:20:41.720
to the south not unlike say the Akkadians in

01:20:41.720 --> 01:20:45.100
Louisiana and that they the the name actually

01:20:45.100 --> 01:20:47.340
means visitor they were meant to go back but

01:20:47.340 --> 01:20:52.140
they never did. So there's an ethnic aspect to

01:20:52.140 --> 01:20:56.220
this. The missionaries are providing a sort of

01:20:56.220 --> 01:20:59.199
religious dimension to them, but this dimension

01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:02.579
is also providing them with an alternative. The

01:21:02.579 --> 01:21:05.979
only alternative that's handy, I would say, to

01:21:05.979 --> 01:21:10.920
what is an alternative to Manchu rule here. So

01:21:11.829 --> 01:21:15.449
That it's a republic, that's probably also Western

01:21:15.449 --> 01:21:18.430
influence because a republic had never been something

01:21:18.430 --> 01:21:20.649
that had existed in China before that. It had

01:21:20.649 --> 01:21:24.569
always been rulers or warlords or something of

01:21:24.569 --> 01:21:28.109
that ilk. So the missionaries are kind of giving

01:21:28.109 --> 01:21:31.289
them that space to think about that form of government

01:21:31.289 --> 01:21:34.229
and implementing that form of government on China.

01:21:34.529 --> 01:21:36.850
But that's not an intrinsically Christian issue.

01:21:37.870 --> 01:21:40.050
Is what I'm trying to get at. Well, they saw

01:21:40.050 --> 01:21:43.109
it. They saw the two as overlapping They the

01:21:43.109 --> 01:21:45.829
missionaries didn't know son and son. Okay. So

01:21:45.829 --> 01:21:48.729
if you're gonna if you're going to Take example

01:21:48.729 --> 01:21:51.409
from the Americans about how to run a government.

01:21:51.649 --> 01:21:53.470
Yes You're also going to take example for them

01:21:53.470 --> 01:21:56.130
on what religion to have exactly religiously.

01:21:56.229 --> 01:21:59.430
Yes, therefore to them. It's inextricably Connected.

01:21:59.729 --> 01:22:01.850
Yes Americanization or whatever you want to call

01:22:01.850 --> 01:22:03.569
it or at least some kind of an American inspired

01:22:03.569 --> 01:22:05.810
new form of government is intrinsically linked

01:22:05.810 --> 01:22:09.500
to also Christianity Christian principles and

01:22:09.500 --> 01:22:11.720
these kinds of things and and this is going to

01:22:11.720 --> 01:22:15.159
be something that as we'll see in in in the next

01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:19.079
episode that this idea of Christianizing China

01:22:19.079 --> 01:22:23.600
is becomes linked to Not so much Sun Yat -sen,

01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:26.600
but definitely to Chiang Kai -shek and his wife

01:22:26.600 --> 01:22:30.500
Mei Ling. And does the Christian example influence

01:22:30.500 --> 01:22:32.479
them in terms of their idea of cleaning society

01:22:32.479 --> 01:22:35.380
up and, you know, the corruption and all of that?

01:22:35.579 --> 01:22:38.699
Is that part of it? It is part of it, but they

01:22:38.699 --> 01:22:42.380
were to prove themselves just as corrupt. Sure,

01:22:42.640 --> 01:22:44.680
once they once they achieve power. We're not

01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:46.500
there yet, though We're not there yet, but they're

01:22:46.500 --> 01:22:48.260
thinking at this time They're thinking at this

01:22:48.260 --> 01:22:50.140
time is that they're gonna clean things up and

01:22:50.140 --> 01:22:52.520
that society is going to be on a more equitable

01:22:52.520 --> 01:22:54.140
basis And there's a Christian influence in there.

01:22:54.140 --> 01:22:55.760
There's a Christian influence in there. All right,

01:22:56.039 --> 01:22:59.460
okay in terms of say social justice and and things

01:22:59.460 --> 01:23:03.100
of that ilk, okay Charlie song and Sun Yat -sen

01:23:03.100 --> 01:23:06.840
are products of this missionary culture this

01:23:06.840 --> 01:23:10.489
US sponsored missionary culture which succeeded

01:23:10.489 --> 01:23:13.850
in overthrowing the 2000 year old imperial system.

01:23:14.770 --> 01:23:17.189
Subsequently, and we'll look at this in the next

01:23:17.189 --> 01:23:20.649
episode, Song's children, who are products of

01:23:20.649 --> 01:23:24.630
this missionary educational system, this US missionary

01:23:24.630 --> 01:23:28.750
educational system, who would be educated both

01:23:28.750 --> 01:23:31.630
in China and the United States, would use their

01:23:31.630 --> 01:23:34.470
connections that the missionary culture provided

01:23:34.470 --> 01:23:38.079
to sustain themselves in China with American

01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:42.479
political, military, and media support. The Manchu

01:23:42.479 --> 01:23:45.119
dynasty had fallen, but I think we can say that

01:23:45.119 --> 01:23:48.739
the Song dynasty would dominate Chinese foreign

01:23:48.739 --> 01:23:52.220
and domestic relations with the United States

01:23:52.220 --> 01:23:56.779
and the world for the next 60 years. So in the

01:23:56.779 --> 01:23:58.960
next episode, the Song family, particularly the

01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:02.380
Daughters, will take the lead in directing Chinese

01:24:02.380 --> 01:24:06.199
policy. These women educated in America at Methodist

01:24:06.199 --> 01:24:09.300
schools and understanding how to approach the

01:24:09.300 --> 01:24:13.300
Protestant population will prove very adept in

01:24:13.300 --> 01:24:17.060
shaping US perceptions and policies, not just

01:24:17.060 --> 01:24:19.300
towards China, but ultimately towards all of

01:24:19.300 --> 01:24:23.180
Asia and not to the benefit of US interests.

01:24:30.290 --> 01:24:32.930
That's it for this episode of the United States

01:24:32.930 --> 01:24:36.170
of Amnesia. Thank you for listening. We hope

01:24:36.170 --> 01:24:38.289
you learned something, and we hope you discovered

01:24:38.289 --> 01:24:40.550
new ways of looking at things you had already

01:24:40.550 --> 01:24:43.689
heard or thought about, or perhaps hadn't heard

01:24:43.689 --> 01:24:47.750
about. If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we

01:24:47.750 --> 01:24:51.289
made you mad, that's okay, too. Either way, email

01:24:51.289 --> 01:24:55.630
us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know

01:24:55.630 --> 01:24:58.899
what you think. Also, let us know about anything

01:24:58.899 --> 01:25:01.220
you think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to

01:25:01.220 --> 01:25:04.899
know about that too. And of course, please like

01:25:04.899 --> 01:25:06.960
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01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:10.779
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01:25:10.779 --> 01:25:17.760
.usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself,

01:25:18.380 --> 01:25:19.119
until next time.