206: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - Vinegar Joe and the Generalissimo

WEBVTT

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When loyalty is the only qualification for appointing

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people to high office, one is only able to attract

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mediocrities at best. This is a quote from Barbara

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Tuckman and her book Still Well in the American

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Experience in China. During World War II, the

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United States, its politicians and its military

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leaders, had a lot of ideas about what should

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happen in China, and they spent a lot of time

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arguing about those ideas. But none of them really

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understood what they were dealing with in China,

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and their goals probably were doomed all along.

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Would you like to know more about it? Oh, yeah,

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absolutely. Then let's get into it on the United

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States of Amnesia. Welcome to the United States

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of Amnesia. We are the podcast that reminds us

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of what we have forgotten. It is often said that

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history repeats itself. Mark Twain allegedly

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said that history doesn't repeat itself. but

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it rhymes. But over time, many topics have become

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clouded by biases and oversimplifications, or

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have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. In this episode, Mike

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leads our discussion of the American experience

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in China during the first half of World War II.

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Chiang Kai -shek, Franklin Roosevelt, and General

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Vinegar Joe Stillwell are the central figures

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in this episode, which explores many aspects

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of the war's often overlooked China -Burma -India

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theater and introduces us to the Flying Tigers,

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the Burma Road, Merrill's Marauders, and the

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over -the -hump airlift from India to China.

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Roosevelt's post -war goals for China, differing

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advice FDR gets as to how to handle Chiang, and

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Stillwell's fraught relationship with Chiang

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drive our narrative as issues of military strategy,

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operations, logistics, and reform lead to disagreement

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between vinegar Joe and Chiang, the Generalissimo,

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and to their disdain for one another. First let's

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review the events that shaped the situation in

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China when World War two broke out in the Pacific

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Japan had been nibbling at Chinese territory

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since the first Sino -Japanese war back in 1894

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1895 when it conquered Formosa, which we now

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call Taiwan Formosa or Taiwan would remain part

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of the Japanese Empire for the next 50 years

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until 1945 In a couple of earlier episodes in

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this series We discussed how Japan was part of

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the eight nation alliance that fought in China

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during the Boxer rebellion in 1900 and Japan

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earned some concessions out of that as well.

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Japan defeated Russia in the Russo -Japanese

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War in 1904 -1905 and took over Russia's 25 -year

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lease in something called the Kwantung Leased

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Territory, which was in Manchuria. Manchuria

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is the northeastern part of China, north of Korea.

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Japan fought on the Allied side in World War

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I and played a key role in 1914 in capturing

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Tsingtao, now known as Jingdao, from the Germans.

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China had ceded Tsingtao to Germany in 1897.

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So Germany controlled it for about 17 years before

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the Allies kicked them out And by the way, the

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Tsingtao beer that you often order can order

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in a Chinese restaurant It's from a brewery that

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the Germans founded in Tsingtao. So you're actually

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drinking a German brew brewed in in China. We

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cover it all here at the United States of Amnesia.

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We cover beer history as well Yeah, we're a complete

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podcast Japan tried to bully China into accepting

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its 21 demands in 1915 and that would have forced

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the Americans and the Europeans out of China

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And pretty much turned China into a Japanese

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protectorate The Japanese wanted to control the

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police the finances all sorts of things probably

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they're trying to take advantage of World War

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one Well, yeah, the Allies are busy somewhere

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else and the Germans and the Germans are busy

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exactly Chinese and international pressure was

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so great against this idea that it forced Japan

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to tone it down significantly But Japan did emerge

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from World War one in 1918 with control of the

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Shandong Peninsula. That's the peninsula Tsingtao

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is on It sticks out of China toward Korea and

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it separates the Yellow Sea from the East China

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Sea Although the United States forced Japan to

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cede political control of the peninsula back

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to China in 1922 Japan remained the dominant

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economic power there conflicts continued For

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about a week in May 1928, the Japanese fought

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Junkai Shek's National Revolutionary Army in

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the Jinan Incident, which was a dispute in the

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city of Sinan, now called Jinan. But much bigger

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was the Mukden Incident in Manchuria in 1931.

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Mukden is a city in Manchuria. The Mukden Incident

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was a false flag operation in which the Japanese

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army dynamited a Japanese -owned railroad track

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in Manchuria. The explosion wasn't even big enough

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to damage the tracks enough to keep trains from

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using it. But, they blamed the explosion on China,

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and they used it as a pretext to conquer Manchuria.

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This is a major land grab. There's mining and

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lumber in Manchuria, there's a manufacturing

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base there, so this was an important loss for

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China. And in 1932, Japan actually set up a puppet

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state in Manchuria called Manchukuo, and installed

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as its regent Puyi, sometimes called Henry Puyi.

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He had been dethroned as China's last Emperor

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when he was six years old in 1912 The 1987 movie

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the last Emperor is about Puyi. Although like

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all movies, it's not entirely accurate historically

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however, the fact that it makes sense to put

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him in there because he was Manchu of the Manchurian

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Period so this was the native homeland for him.

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There was there was a reason to do this Although

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nobody recognized Manchukuo other than a few

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Axis countries. It wasn't a widely accepted legitimate

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country by any stretch. When the League of Nations

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told Japan to give Manchuria back, Japan solved

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that problem by simply quitting the League of

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Nations, and so like Formosa, Manchuria remained

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under Japanese control until 1945. More conflicts.

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After civil unrest broke out in Shanghai in January

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1932, the Republic of China, that's Chokai -shek's

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government, and Japan. Fought heavily in and

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around the city for about five weeks in what

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became known as the Shanghai incident And then

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there was another conflict in the first five

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months of 1933 which the Japanese called the

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defense of the Great Wall Wait, let me let me

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get this straight. The Chinese called it the

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defense of the Great Wall The Japanese called

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it operation NECA and e KK a I couldn't find

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a translation for that But maybe one of our listeners

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can tell us what it means And in that one the

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Japanese fought a Chinese warlord conquered the

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Chinese province of Rehe and incorporated it

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into their puppet state of Manchukuo. So suffice

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it to say that China and Japan had not been getting

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along well at all for a long time by the time

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of the Marco Polo Bridge incident which occurred

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in July 1937. What happened there was while conducting

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nighttime maneuvers Japanese forces crossed over

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the Manchukuo China border and a Japanese soldier

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went missing. The Japanese demanded access to

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the city of Wanping on the Chinese side to look

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for him. The Chinese said no, and shooting began.

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The Japanese soldier soon showed up safe and

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sound and claimed to have fallen ill, although

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some people think he may have been visiting a

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brothel. But fighting continued, and the Japanese

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used it as a pretext for a full -scale war with

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China, and the Second Sino -Japanese War began.

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That war lasted eight years, until 1945, and

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about 20 million Chinese, mostly civilians, died

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in that war. Some historians consider it to be

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a separate war throughout its throughout at the

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course of the war the entire eight years Other

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people will say that the war became part of World

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War two once World War two spread to the Pacific

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in December 1941 either way It was a very destructive

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war in China The war went poorly for the Chinese

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The Japanese conquered most of Northeastern and

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Eastern China by 1938 Chung Kai Shek's government

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had to flee its capital city, which was Nanking

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now called Nanjing in 1938 and moved to Chungking

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which now is known as Chongqing if I'm pronouncing

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it correctly Nanking suffered terribly at this

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time by the way Japanese aircraft terror bombed

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it and after occupying it the Japanese committed

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atrocities and massacres on a large scale there

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and that's now known as the rape of Nanking it

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was so bad that even the Nazi diplomatic corps

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Found this outrageous. They were they were you

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know, you got to think about these things in

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terms of scale, but One of the people that was

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instrumental in helping some of the Chinese civilians

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was actually a member of the Nazi government

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and he was Appalled by the Japanese lack of humanity

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That is saying a great deal if you ask me when

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you lose the Nazis. Yeah must be engaging in

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some real barbarity. Yes. Yes The Nazi German

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government actually was supportive of the nationalist

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government as well at this time. It's strange

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to think of that because they became allies with

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Japan later, but for a while they were actually

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supporting the Nationalists. Well, the Nationalists

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kind of subscribed. You know, when we get into

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talking about General Stilwell, Stilwell actually

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thought that the Nationalists had more in common

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with the Nazis than they did with the United

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States. In addition to losing Northeastern and

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Eastern China, The nationalist government also

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lost control of the coastal provinces to Japan.

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And the Japanese either captured or destroyed

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almost all of China's industrial capacity during

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this phase of the war. The war bogged down in

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a stalemate in 1939, when the nationalists finally

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were able to score a few victories against the

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Japanese. And the Japanese became too thinly

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spread out to continue the momentum of their

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offensive. And from that point until 1944, the

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line stayed more or less in place. But this left

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the nationalists only in control of the Chinese

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interior, mostly in southwestern China, and isolated

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from the world, except for a supply route via

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the Burma Road. What was that? The Burma Road

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was built in 1937 -1938 to supply China, and

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it ran from a town called Lashio in central Burma,

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which now is officially called Myanmar, to Chengking,

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which is Cheng Kaisheng's capital in China. And

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the way the supply line worked was ships brought

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supplies into the port of Rangoon, which is now

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called Yangon. Then those supplies were taken

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by rail to this town of Lashio. And from there

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to Chungking by truck on the Burma Road. So this

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was Chungkai Shack's lifeline. Elsewhere the

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Japanese took actions that further isolated China.

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After France surrendered to Germany and Italy

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in June 1940, the French Empire was in a weakened

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state. So Japan took advantage of that by bullying

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the colonial authorities in French Indochina

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into letting them occupy the colony and establish

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bases there. Where was French Indochina? That

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was in Southeast Asia and it was made up of what

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are now Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. And then

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on December 7th, 1941, which was December 8th

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on the other side of the international dateline

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in China, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. And World

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War II in the Pacific began. By the spring of

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1942, Japan had overrun the Philippines, which

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was at the time a US possession. Guam, also US.

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Hong Kong, which was a British colony. The Netherlands

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East Indies, which of course belonged to the

00:11:45.649 --> 00:11:48.669
Netherlands and is now Indonesia. Parts of New

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Guinea, which was split between the Dutch and

00:11:50.730 --> 00:11:53.629
the Australians. Singapore, which was a British

00:11:53.629 --> 00:11:57.070
possession at the time. Brunei, British. British

00:11:57.070 --> 00:11:59.769
Malaya on the Malayan Peninsula and Sarawak and

00:11:59.769 --> 00:12:02.269
Sabah on Borneo. Those make up the modern -day

00:12:02.269 --> 00:12:04.990
country of Malaysia. The Japanese also invaded

00:12:04.990 --> 00:12:08.049
Thailand, which after about five hours gave into

00:12:08.049 --> 00:12:10.169
the Japanese and then became an ally of Japan.

00:12:10.669 --> 00:12:12.210
That's kind of a forgotten footnote of history

00:12:12.210 --> 00:12:14.529
is that Thailand was actually an enemy country

00:12:14.529 --> 00:12:18.909
of the allies during World War II. All of this

00:12:18.909 --> 00:12:22.250
completely isolated China from the Pacific and

00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:24.289
allied communications with China and supplies

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would have to come in from the other direction,

00:12:26.610 --> 00:12:39.009
through India. After the United States entered

00:12:39.009 --> 00:12:41.009
World War II with the Pearl Harbor attack in

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December 1941, it divided the world into three

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military theaters of operations. There was the

00:12:46.909 --> 00:12:49.070
European theater, which I don't have to tell

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you was centered on Europe, but it also included

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North Africa and some parts of the Middle East.

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The Pacific Theater, and to be clear that extended

00:12:58.429 --> 00:13:00.129
through the entire Pacific Ocean all the way

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from the west coast of the Americas to Australia

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and the Philippines and Japan, but did not include

00:13:07.350 --> 00:13:11.009
China. And then the third and much less well

00:13:11.009 --> 00:13:13.470
-known theater was the China Burma India Theater,

00:13:13.710 --> 00:13:17.429
often called CBI for short. You can probably

00:13:17.429 --> 00:13:20.110
tell that it included China, Burma and India.

00:13:20.379 --> 00:13:23.799
but also more generally it included Southeast

00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:28.600
Asia as a whole. The CBI was definitely the little

00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.840
brother of the three. For Roosevelt, the main

00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.539
priority, he called it Germany first, was Europe.

00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:39.899
A secondary priority, but also important, was

00:13:39.899 --> 00:13:42.720
the Pacific. The CBI was way, way, way back in

00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.840
third place. Far more limited U .S. presence

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and a much lower priority for the United States.

00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.759
Roosevelt tended to prioritize things. There's

00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.299
a very interesting exchange that occurs as they're

00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:57.320
trying to set priorities between Roosevelt and

00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.779
his generals. The generals actually wanted to

00:14:00.779 --> 00:14:02.840
focus on the Pacific because of Pearl Harbor,

00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:06.159
but Roosevelt, in his kind of strategic view

00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:09.919
of things, viewed a greater threat to the U .S.

00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.259
homeland could come from Europe, and that is

00:14:12.259 --> 00:14:15.600
why Europe had to be prioritized. He didn't see

00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.240
anything strategically significant that the Japanese

00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:21.779
could do that would prevent the United States

00:14:21.779 --> 00:14:24.320
from keeping things under control in the Pacific.

00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:27.179
And that's why there was a lower priority for

00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:30.940
the Pacific. And for CBI, there's actually no

00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:34.299
threat to the US homeland at all coming from

00:14:34.299 --> 00:14:37.779
that particular theater. So that's why it's getting

00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:40.980
the resources that it gets. We talked about some

00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:44.690
of the reasoning behind the Germany First Priority

00:14:44.690 --> 00:14:47.470
I think in the America first series that we did

00:14:47.470 --> 00:14:49.809
where we talked about the strategic issues there

00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:53.250
to some extent So CBI was a low priority But

00:14:53.250 --> 00:14:56.269
despite that there were some quite famous American

00:14:56.269 --> 00:14:59.289
military operations and units that operated in

00:14:59.289 --> 00:15:02.769
CBI One was what we're called the over -the -hump

00:15:02.769 --> 00:15:06.330
cargo flights The hump was slang for the Himalayas

00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:09.429
and these flights took place between India and

00:15:09.429 --> 00:15:15.340
China from 1942 to 1945 At first the United States

00:15:15.340 --> 00:15:18.299
Army's 10th Air Force organized them, later the

00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:20.220
Air Transport Command, but whoever was running

00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.360
them, they achieved quite a bit. They brought

00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:27.840
a lot of supplies into Chiang Kai -shek and his

00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:31.840
army. And it was a heroic effort because remember

00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.080
that these are the aircraft of the early 1940s.

00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:35.840
They don't have the capabilities of aircraft

00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:38.600
today. They're operating over high mountains

00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.519
in bad weather very often. And on top of all

00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.169
that, They could face interception from Japanese

00:15:44.169 --> 00:15:47.970
fighters So the achievements that they had were

00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:50.149
quite important and are actually quite famous

00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:54.570
among military historians One thing though that

00:15:54.570 --> 00:16:00.190
we should maybe emphasize is that? Stuff's not

00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:03.889
being produced in India though the supply line

00:16:03.889 --> 00:16:08.529
that involves supporting Chang, which I don't

00:16:08.529 --> 00:16:11.389
think that The national government really recognized

00:16:11.389 --> 00:16:13.149
all because they were constantly bitching it

00:16:13.149 --> 00:16:17.090
still well during this period about how slow

00:16:17.090 --> 00:16:20.429
it is how long it's taking things have to be

00:16:20.429 --> 00:16:23.750
manufactured in america. And then they have to

00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:27.789
be shipped to india. And that is not the easiest

00:16:27.789 --> 00:16:30.169
thing to do during war especially with the german

00:16:30.169 --> 00:16:32.809
u -boats the submarine yeah you're gonna have

00:16:32.809 --> 00:16:36.669
to take a very lengthy cruise to get things over

00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:39.419
there. And then you're going to have to ship

00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:44.620
things once they get to India from India to Chungking

00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:49.740
there. And time and time again, Stillwell is

00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:52.879
getting all sorts of grief about, why aren't

00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.000
we getting all the equipment that's been promised

00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:58.480
to us? Well, it takes a while for this supply

00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:05.089
chain to occur. And Chinese just Don't seem to

00:17:05.089 --> 00:17:07.309
grasp that when they're when in their dealings

00:17:07.309 --> 00:17:09.490
with the Americans throughout the war Another

00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:12.089
aspect too is airlifts can do some amazing things,

00:17:12.109 --> 00:17:13.670
but they're not the same thing as bringing things

00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:15.690
in by ship or on the ground Yeah, there's only

00:17:15.690 --> 00:17:17.250
so much you can put on a plane and there's only

00:17:17.250 --> 00:17:19.529
so many planes and so on and so forth So there's

00:17:19.529 --> 00:17:22.369
only so many and and when you're the number three

00:17:22.369 --> 00:17:25.589
priority. Yeah that too, right? So so over the

00:17:25.589 --> 00:17:27.549
hump cargo flights were important. Another one

00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:30.250
was the operations in Burma of something called

00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:35.069
the US Army's 5307th composite unit parentheses

00:17:35.069 --> 00:17:40.170
provisional closed parentheses a not very Not

00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:42.569
very exciting name for a commando unit now We

00:17:42.569 --> 00:17:44.769
would say special forces which went by the nickname

00:17:44.769 --> 00:17:47.890
Merrill's marauders much catchier name After

00:17:47.890 --> 00:17:49.730
their commander Colonel Frank Merrill and their

00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:52.450
operations of Burma back in the day became another

00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:55.250
legendary achievement of US Armed Forces And

00:17:55.250 --> 00:17:57.809
then there were the Flying Tigers The Flying

00:17:57.809 --> 00:17:59.970
Tigers were American aviators flying in China

00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:01.869
to fight the Japanese. They're undoubtedly the

00:18:01.869 --> 00:18:05.670
most famous of all All three of the we're gonna

00:18:05.670 --> 00:18:09.170
talk about them some more But all three of these

00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:11.210
operations have something to do with our story

00:18:11.210 --> 00:18:14.789
What were the US goals in the China Burma India

00:18:14.789 --> 00:18:17.990
theater Roosevelt had a vision for the post -world

00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:19.890
war two world order in which the world would

00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:22.069
have four policemen that would lead collective

00:18:22.069 --> 00:18:24.529
security to prevent aggression and reduce the

00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:27.700
likelihood of major wars in the future And these

00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:29.900
four policemen were the United States, the United

00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:32.700
Kingdom, the Soviet Union, and the Republic of

00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.700
China, which is the Chiang Kai -shek government.

00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.240
Now, this was not at all realistic. The United

00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.059
Kingdom during the war was actually more interested

00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:42.039
in defending and then reestablishing the British

00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:44.519
Empire. And then after the war, maintaining that

00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.680
empire in the post -war world. And this was a

00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.519
source of conflict between us and the British,

00:18:51.579 --> 00:18:53.920
which kind of has gotten swept under the carpet

00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.799
in subsequent Histories about World War two,

00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.960
but this was an area that Roosevelt who was a

00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.880
vowed anti -imperialist and Churchill had issues

00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.579
with throughout the war Yeah in fact it really

00:19:07.579 --> 00:19:09.420
started to become more prominent towards the

00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:11.279
end of the war when the axis was obviously beaten

00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.900
and European powers are trying to reclaim their

00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:15.519
empires and they wanted the US to help them and

00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.079
we said no We're still fighting Japan. That's

00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:19.759
the priority. Well, we have to knock Japan out

00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:21.440
of the war I don't care whether you regain control

00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.450
of your empire, you know if we can be have You

00:19:24.450 --> 00:19:27.230
know, there is the sort of exception with the

00:19:27.230 --> 00:19:30.450
period around the Spanish -American War but if

00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:33.970
the US can be said to have had a foreign policy

00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:37.190
that Existed up until World War two. It was kind

00:19:37.190 --> 00:19:41.450
of anti -imperial anti -european imperialism

00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:44.329
Particularly the British but other forms as well.

00:19:44.509 --> 00:19:47.069
Yes. I Probably don't need to tell very many

00:19:47.069 --> 00:19:49.920
people that the Soviet Union Opposed the capitalist

00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.279
world ideal ideologically it had no interest

00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:55.660
in joining into the four policemen Idea and besides

00:19:55.660 --> 00:19:58.180
it pursued Russian national interests. It wasn't

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:00.859
looking for some kind of you know global order

00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:03.759
that favored everyone and of course we had a

00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.920
cold war with that for 45 years after the war

00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.539
and Then there was China and of course, we're

00:20:08.539 --> 00:20:12.660
gonna get into China Given FDRs vision for the

00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:15.759
post -war world After the United States entered

00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:17.619
World War Two, it became important to support

00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:19.779
China, specifically the Chiang Kai -shek government,

00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.059
in a couple of ways. One was in the immediate

00:20:23.059 --> 00:20:25.319
context of it being helpful in defeating Japan.

00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.619
If the Chinese could put pressure on Japan, force

00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:33.099
it to commit more forces to China, or at a minimum

00:20:33.099 --> 00:20:36.220
force it to tie down forces in China, those were

00:20:36.220 --> 00:20:38.500
fewer Japanese forces that could face the Allies

00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:41.289
anywhere else. And on top of that if they could

00:20:41.289 --> 00:20:43.109
actually drive the Japanese back out of China

00:20:43.109 --> 00:20:45.490
that would materially benefit the the war effort

00:20:45.490 --> 00:20:47.890
against Japan But there was another aspect of

00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:51.609
this to the broader context of FDR wanted China

00:20:51.609 --> 00:20:54.910
to have a leading role in defeating Japan To

00:20:54.910 --> 00:20:58.369
prepare it for its future policeman role By establishing

00:20:58.369 --> 00:21:01.210
China as a great power alongside the other three

00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:04.369
countries and he's kind of looking to use Them

00:21:04.369 --> 00:21:07.750
as a counterbalance to kind of the European Empire

00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:11.970
states and also the Russians as well Which the

00:21:11.970 --> 00:21:13.690
British understood because they didn't want to

00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:15.869
have trying to be very strong after the war So

00:21:15.869 --> 00:21:18.049
yeah, I mean all these politics are gonna play

00:21:18.049 --> 00:21:21.349
out later enabling all these anti I mean there

00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:24.589
are cracks that are going on during World War

00:21:24.589 --> 00:21:30.099
two in India specifically but elsewhere and Elevating

00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.960
China to that level was not in the British interest

00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.640
and the British had a more realistic assessment

00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.680
about China's actual military Capabilities than

00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.099
I think we did I think we discussed in an earlier

00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:43.640
episode that the British wanted a weak post -war

00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:46.000
China Because they viewed a strong post -war

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.660
China as a potential threat to the British Empire

00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:53.940
in India in Southeast Asia and in East Asia So

00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:55.940
who would run this effort for the United States

00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:58.690
in the China Bruma India theater? Well, the Allies

00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:01.950
set up a very ambiguous, convoluted, dysfunctional

00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:04.829
military command system in CBI that actually

00:22:04.829 --> 00:22:07.529
evolved over time. So first they created a China

00:22:07.529 --> 00:22:11.890
theater, which is recognized as incorporating

00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:15.650
all of China, and it had Chiang Kai -shek as

00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:17.910
its commander in chief. He was called the Generalissimo.

00:22:18.690 --> 00:22:22.950
He had command over all forces in China, and

00:22:22.950 --> 00:22:25.730
all forces intended to operate there in the future.

00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:29.619
So I guess you could be Troops in India on your

00:22:29.619 --> 00:22:31.380
way to China and he would actually technically

00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:33.940
have command over you Well, there's also there's

00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:36.200
also training facilities in India, too And it's

00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:37.759
training facilities and in fact there there were

00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:41.880
Chinese forces will mention that The British

00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.880
had the largest commitment of forces in India

00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:46.400
and Southeast Asia So the British general who

00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.359
commanded those forces became commander -in -chief

00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.450
of something called a Burma India theater And

00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:53.910
then in mid -1942, the Americans established

00:22:53.910 --> 00:22:56.269
the China Burma India Theater, but it was really

00:22:56.269 --> 00:22:58.730
more of an administrative concept than a true

00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:01.410
theater of war like the others. In Europe, you

00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:03.789
had a Supreme Allied Commander, one of being

00:23:03.789 --> 00:23:06.670
Eisenhower eventually. In the Pacific, you had

00:23:06.670 --> 00:23:08.430
a couple of Supreme Commanders because it's so

00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:10.529
big, you had Nimitz in the Central Pacific, you

00:23:10.529 --> 00:23:12.829
had MacArthur in the Southwest Pacific. But in

00:23:12.829 --> 00:23:14.769
the China Burma India Theater, we never really

00:23:14.769 --> 00:23:16.569
appointed someone like that, at least not early

00:23:16.569 --> 00:23:18.430
in the war, and gradually things evolved to the

00:23:18.430 --> 00:23:20.880
point where we had a an overall commander, but

00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.640
it really didn't play out the same way that it

00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.259
did in the other theaters. As a practical matter,

00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:28.380
Chung Kai -Shek was the one who commanded forces

00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:42.240
in China. What about U .S. leadership of this

00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.099
whole endeavor? Chung Kai -Shek asked that an

00:23:46.099 --> 00:23:48.140
American general be sent to serve as his chief

00:23:48.140 --> 00:23:52.170
of staff. To help him command train equip etc.

00:23:52.170 --> 00:23:55.809
The nationalist Chinese army United States agreed

00:23:55.809 --> 00:23:58.369
with the understanding that the US general would

00:23:58.369 --> 00:24:01.589
serve in three roles So first he was going to

00:24:01.589 --> 00:24:04.130
be Chung's chief of staff and military advisor

00:24:04.130 --> 00:24:06.190
So as chief of staff, you'd have a big say in

00:24:06.190 --> 00:24:09.529
what the Chinese military forces did Arguably

00:24:09.529 --> 00:24:11.329
you could consider him the second in command

00:24:11.329 --> 00:24:15.069
of the Chinese forces, I suppose A second job

00:24:15.069 --> 00:24:18.470
would be commander of all US forces in China

00:24:19.109 --> 00:24:22.369
And of any Chinese forces assigned to him So

00:24:22.369 --> 00:24:24.130
chunk I check might assign Chinese forces to

00:24:24.130 --> 00:24:26.730
this general to to to to operate on his behalf

00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:30.349
and he would command those there's kind of a

00:24:30.349 --> 00:24:32.430
Confusion there who commands the US forces in

00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:34.509
China. Is it chunk I check as commander -in -chief?

00:24:34.730 --> 00:24:37.269
Is it this US general because they're US forces

00:24:37.269 --> 00:24:39.970
Hmm hard to tell right based on this agreement

00:24:39.970 --> 00:24:42.410
same way with the Chinese forces because yeah,

00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:47.049
let's just say Chang would basically tell people

00:24:47.309 --> 00:24:50.109
one thing, and he'd tell other people something

00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:52.990
else that contradicts. And then the third job

00:24:52.990 --> 00:24:55.130
actually wound up being extremely important,

00:24:55.730 --> 00:24:57.990
and it's not hard to see why. His third job was

00:24:57.990 --> 00:25:00.190
he controlled the Burma Road, the US General

00:25:00.190 --> 00:25:03.430
did, and the distribution of US land lease aid

00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:08.430
to China. Now, if you are controlling the supplies

00:25:08.430 --> 00:25:11.029
China needs, and China wants to do something

00:25:11.029 --> 00:25:14.269
you don't want them to do, You can either refuse

00:25:14.269 --> 00:25:15.890
to send them the supplies or you can redirect

00:25:15.890 --> 00:25:19.269
the supplies. So this gives the US general Power

00:25:19.269 --> 00:25:22.430
over his nominal boss who is actually chun kai

00:25:22.430 --> 00:25:24.569
shek in the theater We might want to explain

00:25:24.569 --> 00:25:27.150
what lend lease is one more time. Just very briefly

00:25:27.150 --> 00:25:29.450
Sure Marshall you want to dive in on the lease?

00:25:29.569 --> 00:25:34.509
Well, then lease was a program that FDR set up

00:25:34.509 --> 00:25:39.369
initially to help the British It was a way of

00:25:39.369 --> 00:25:44.849
providing loaning military equipment, which in

00:25:44.849 --> 00:25:49.710
theory the the country, Britain, Soviet Union,

00:25:50.029 --> 00:25:53.170
would return at the end of World War II. It was

00:25:53.170 --> 00:25:55.630
a way of getting around some restrictions on

00:25:55.630 --> 00:25:59.769
the sale of military goods, which were supposed

00:25:59.769 --> 00:26:03.930
to be presented on a cash and carry basis. This

00:26:03.930 --> 00:26:05.710
way when you've got lend -lease, well we're not

00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:08.880
really selling them. Equipment we're not really

00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.559
engaging with the merchants of death who were

00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.920
that was a term that had come out from world

00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:20.720
war one and and Kind of let it left it up to

00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:25.380
the to the defense Contractors to basically be

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:27.460
responsible in part because they were making

00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:30.519
money That made it more important for the u .s.

00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:32.319
To get involved world war one this way. We're

00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.519
totally avoiding this sort of political pressure

00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:40.039
and economic interest by making this simply a

00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:45.099
loner system that was set up during the war here

00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:48.220
now. Well, we were paying for the material. Oh,

00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:51.579
yes. It was and loaning it. We were loaning it.

00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.500
Now, it's kind of ridiculous to think that, you

00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:57.940
know, Roosevelt used this example that it would

00:26:57.940 --> 00:27:02.450
be like seeing a neighbor's house on fire. And

00:27:02.450 --> 00:27:06.210
him and and the neighbor being given a hose to

00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:08.670
put out the fire and then when the when the when

00:27:08.670 --> 00:27:11.769
the fire is out You just get the hose returned

00:27:11.769 --> 00:27:16.490
to you now. That's a good nice analogy That could

00:27:16.490 --> 00:27:19.190
that helps sell the program, but the idea that

00:27:19.190 --> 00:27:21.869
we were going to get back any of this equipment

00:27:21.869 --> 00:27:26.349
In in practicality is ridiculous because your

00:27:26.349 --> 00:27:28.589
neighbor's fire isn't going to destroy the hose

00:27:28.589 --> 00:27:33.150
you loaned him Some loaned equipment was destroyed

00:27:33.150 --> 00:27:35.890
during the war, and there was no provision under

00:27:35.890 --> 00:27:38.289
Lend -Lease for countries receiving it to replace

00:27:38.289 --> 00:27:40.509
it with equipment that they lost in the war.

00:27:41.069 --> 00:27:42.890
And frankly, the United States didn't even want

00:27:42.890 --> 00:27:45.529
a lot of the equipment back after the war. In

00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:47.309
a lot of cases, we were happy to let the recipients

00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:49.589
keep it for their own defense or the development

00:27:49.589 --> 00:27:52.289
of their own countries. or to at least avoid

00:27:52.289 --> 00:27:53.849
the expense of shipping it back to the United

00:27:53.849 --> 00:27:56.890
States. And there's also an expense, once you

00:27:56.890 --> 00:27:58.450
get it back to the United States, of storing

00:27:58.450 --> 00:28:01.329
it and maintaining it, which in the post -World

00:28:01.329 --> 00:28:03.970
War II environment we just simply didn't want

00:28:03.970 --> 00:28:07.970
to do. But Lend -Lease was like a huge, decisive

00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:12.509
program that helped the Allies win the war. The

00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:14.890
Russians will talk about how the Soviet Union

00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:17.109
single -handedly beat the Germans during World

00:28:17.109 --> 00:28:20.119
War II, and their sufferings were profound. But

00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:22.319
if you get them, to be honest with you, and maybe

00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.099
after a few drinks, they will tell you that the

00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:29.240
Soviets needed Lend -Lease trucks and supplies

00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:33.579
and even spam from the West for their war against

00:28:33.579 --> 00:28:35.819
the Germans. This is something you read about

00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:37.960
in Nikita Khrushchev's memoirs, for example.

00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:39.799
In other words, instead of saying Lend -Lease,

00:28:39.859 --> 00:28:41.559
I guess I could just say supplies, but technically

00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:43.440
it was the Lend -Lease. No, I think we should

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.859
call it what it was. Yeah, yeah. But I mean,

00:28:46.859 --> 00:28:48.200
it's good to make sure everybody understands

00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.740
what it is, so. But it's an important area of

00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:54.160
leverage. Well, yes. I mean, if you control the

00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:56.619
supplies, you get to dictate what happens, including

00:28:56.619 --> 00:28:58.200
to your boss, if he doesn't have a say in the

00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:00.319
supplies and you do. And that's the issue between

00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.660
Chiang Kai -shek and this general who we're about

00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:05.019
to identify. Okay. So that's a really, really

00:29:05.019 --> 00:29:06.599
critical thing to understand about that. It's

00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:09.900
probably more decisive to control Linlis in China

00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:13.660
in terms of trying to promote positive behavior

00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:18.289
than any other area. That we're talking about

00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:20.069
so we're gonna set we're gonna discuss that at

00:29:20.069 --> 00:29:23.170
great length. I think so Other countries receiving

00:29:23.170 --> 00:29:25.289
lend lease aid had their own industrial base

00:29:25.289 --> 00:29:27.130
and could support their war efforts with their

00:29:27.130 --> 00:29:30.190
own production But China had lost its industrial

00:29:30.190 --> 00:29:32.910
base to the Japanese and its economy had collapsed

00:29:32.910 --> 00:29:34.890
and it was far more reliant on land lease than

00:29:34.890 --> 00:29:39.190
other allied countries All right, so this general

00:29:39.190 --> 00:29:40.869
would have this US general have these three jobs

00:29:40.869 --> 00:29:43.900
who would this American general be? So in mid

00:29:43.900 --> 00:29:46.880
-January 1942, Secretary of War Henry Stimson

00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.960
made the choice. Now so everybody understands

00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:50.160
what we're talking about, let's take another

00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:53.519
terminology break very quickly. So until 1947,

00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:56.099
the U .S. military was overseen by two separate

00:29:56.099 --> 00:29:58.740
cabinet departments. The Department of the Navy

00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:00.640
for the Navy and Marine Corps, and the Department

00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.240
of War for the Army, which of course by the 20th

00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:05.220
century was also including a very substantial

00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:08.099
aviation element, which later became the Independent

00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:09.839
United States Air Force, but that's after World

00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.509
War II. We did not have a Department of Defense

00:30:12.509 --> 00:30:15.289
that was officially formed until 1949. So in

00:30:15.289 --> 00:30:17.349
World War II, it's Department of War, Department

00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:20.990
of the Navy. So Secretary of War Henry Stimson

00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:24.390
is the person responsible to civilian oversight

00:30:24.390 --> 00:30:29.150
of the Army. He picks U .S. Army General Joseph

00:30:29.150 --> 00:30:32.309
Stillwell. Stillwell had been in the Army since

00:30:32.309 --> 00:30:35.990
1904. He served in World War I and also in the

00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:38.109
Philippines, which was a U .S. possession at

00:30:38.109 --> 00:30:40.609
the time. And he also performed three tours of

00:30:40.609 --> 00:30:43.910
duty in China, including one as military attache.

00:30:44.569 --> 00:30:48.369
His experience in China began as early as 1911.

00:30:48.990 --> 00:30:51.309
So he was a witness to most of the great events

00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:54.829
of the first half of the 20th century in China.

00:30:56.650 --> 00:30:58.890
During his army career, still well established

00:30:58.890 --> 00:31:01.789
a reputation as an excellent trainer of troops

00:31:01.789 --> 00:31:03.910
and as someone who was able to get a lot done,

00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:06.559
even when given very little to work with. But

00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:08.740
he was also a notoriously difficult officer to

00:31:08.740 --> 00:31:11.380
deal with and he became known by the nickname

00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:13.980
vinegar Joe He knew that and he embraced that

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:16.500
title because his personality was often acerbic

00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:18.440
So it was said that if he thought you were an

00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.180
idiot or in his way He was not shy about telling

00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:23.720
you that and as far as it goes telling everybody

00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:25.619
else that he thought so too And he even intended

00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:28.559
to indulge in juvenile name -calling giving people

00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:30.619
he disliked insulting nicknames. So to give you

00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:34.619
an example He called FDR rubber legs because

00:31:34.619 --> 00:31:38.779
FDR was in a wheelchair. So yeah, Joseph Stillwell

00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:42.509
went there. And also he hated politicians and

00:31:42.509 --> 00:31:44.349
so this explains part of why he had such disdain

00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:47.009
for from every politician that he He encountered

00:31:47.009 --> 00:31:49.849
now. We should be clear. He is not going up to

00:31:49.849 --> 00:31:52.250
Roosevelt and calling him rubber leg This stuff's

00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:55.170
from his diary his stuff is in his he will indulge

00:31:55.170 --> 00:31:58.150
in this name -calling Primarily in the diaries

00:31:58.150 --> 00:32:00.970
or with intimates. This is not something he goes

00:32:00.970 --> 00:32:05.930
still well Was a cervic, but he also was never

00:32:05.930 --> 00:32:09.599
rude unintentionally He was rude intentionally,

00:32:09.980 --> 00:32:12.839
but. But still, the way you write in your diary

00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:14.420
kind of shows all your mind works and how you

00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:17.059
think. And so, you know, it's interesting that

00:32:17.059 --> 00:32:20.519
he actually went to links like that. So Stimson,

00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:23.140
Secretary of War Stimson pulled still well off

00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:25.180
of a prestigious job planning the Allied invasion

00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:27.019
of North Africa, which is going to be our first

00:32:27.019 --> 00:32:30.180
major offensive operation of World War II in

00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.380
our planning. And he talked him into serving

00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:35.259
in CBI in the job as Chung's chief of staff,

00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:38.140
as that U .S. general I described. So Stillwell

00:32:38.140 --> 00:32:40.240
lacked tact, he had no talent for diplomacy,

00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:43.019
so in those ways maybe he wasn't the best choice

00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:46.079
for this position. But he had spent significant

00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:48.680
time in China, he spoke and wrote fluently in

00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.519
Chinese. He was thought to be one of the US military's

00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:54.619
foremost experts on China of that time. He was

00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:57.220
genuinely fond of China, and he viewed Chinese

00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:59.079
soldiers as potentially among the best in the

00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:02.559
world. If, and this is a big if, they were properly

00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:06.319
led, trained and equipped. From a military officer's

00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:08.880
standpoint, the job with Chiang Kai -shek seemed

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.539
like a dead end job. But for the Roosevelt administration,

00:33:12.740 --> 00:33:14.279
it was a job that would help create the post

00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.819
-war world order. And so Stimson said to Stilwell,

00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.880
the finger of destiny is pointing at you. And

00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:33.349
so Stilwell dutifully took the job. Now what

00:33:33.349 --> 00:33:35.650
was going on in Southeast Asia, because this

00:33:35.650 --> 00:33:39.049
matters a lot too. From their bases in French

00:33:39.049 --> 00:33:41.509
Indochina and Thailand, the Japanese began bombing

00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:44.390
Burma, which was then a British possession, in

00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:48.069
December 1941. And they invaded Burma later in

00:33:48.069 --> 00:33:51.569
December. The British put up a fight and hoped

00:33:51.569 --> 00:33:53.289
to establish a defensive line that would hold

00:33:53.289 --> 00:33:55.210
somewhere in Burma, but they were not very interested

00:33:55.210 --> 00:33:56.990
in losing too many of their forces in defending

00:33:56.990 --> 00:34:00.059
Burma, because India was their priority. So they

00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:02.180
conducted a fighting retreat to delay the Japanese

00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:04.460
as they fell back toward defensive lines in northeastern

00:34:04.460 --> 00:34:07.500
India. They figured that they would retake Burma

00:34:07.500 --> 00:34:10.159
eventually and reestablish their empire later.

00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.400
As long as India was safe, they were satisfied.

00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:17.320
Stillwell gets into the CBI and he immediately

00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.519
goes into Burma where he commands a force of

00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:23.480
Chinese troops. There are no US troops. A force

00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:25.840
of Chinese troops, among them the 200th Division

00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.130
of the National Revolutionary Army. which Chiang

00:34:28.130 --> 00:34:29.610
Kai -shek viewed as one of his best divisions,

00:34:29.710 --> 00:34:32.289
and in fact it was, it had a very good combat

00:34:32.289 --> 00:34:36.469
record. Chung asked Stilwell to preserve his

00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:39.010
best divisions, but Stilwell ignored Chiang Kai

00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:42.250
-shek. When defeat in Burma became inevitable,

00:34:42.489 --> 00:34:45.389
the Japanese were on a roll. Stilwell in a small

00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:48.909
entourage, you know, I think it's like 115, 125

00:34:48.909 --> 00:34:51.170
people, something like that. Let's nail that

00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:54.840
down, it was 114 people to be exact. They made

00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:58.679
what became a legendary 16 -day, 150 -mile walk

00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:02.179
out of Burma to safety in India. It became legendary

00:35:02.179 --> 00:35:06.300
because there was a U .S. reporter embedded with

00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:09.900
him who wrote glowing accounts of Stilwell's

00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:12.480
leadership during this walk out of Burma. And

00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.179
it seemed very exotic, you know, going through

00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.320
jungles and heavy terrain to get away from the

00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.519
Japanese. Stilwell was very stoical. Very stoical

00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:23.480
guy. With this, but he's also, and I think...

00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:26.659
this is a moment that kind of defines him and

00:35:26.659 --> 00:35:30.420
can kind of explain him. He puts everybody on

00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:34.039
half rations and he kind of, you know, he says,

00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:38.250
I'm like an elderly gentleman and if I can do

00:35:38.250 --> 00:35:42.969
this so it was also in very good shape and He's

00:35:42.969 --> 00:35:45.670
like insisting that the wounded and everybody

00:35:45.670 --> 00:35:48.030
else should be able to keep up with him He was

00:35:48.030 --> 00:35:49.889
in his 50s when this happened. I think maybe

00:35:49.889 --> 00:35:52.469
even his late 50s right late 50s Yeah, you know,

00:35:52.510 --> 00:35:57.250
and so he is he's he you know his mind the way

00:35:57.250 --> 00:36:00.800
it is is that You know, we have a duty to kind

00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.159
of survive here and that is what is propelling

00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:06.679
him through the jungle here. Now, other people

00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:10.039
are not necessarily regarding this as being a

00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:12.579
wonderful experience, but it is certainly a way

00:36:12.579 --> 00:36:15.780
you can see how Stillwell is always willing to

00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:19.940
take the hard way out in some ways rather than

00:36:19.940 --> 00:36:23.820
the path of least resistance. Yeah, and it kind

00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:25.739
of shows you his reputation too for getting the

00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:27.840
most The most he can out of very little yes,

00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:29.880
you know half rations or whatever. He could really

00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:33.380
drive his troops Be very hard on them actually

00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:35.219
because of that kind of mentality and it wasn't

00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:37.880
just troops. He had nurses He had he had some

00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.019
Burmese nurses with him on this as they were

00:36:40.019 --> 00:36:42.440
they were kind of instrumental There's a dr.

00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.800
Seagrave in there and these were his his Burmese

00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:48.679
nurses and the Burmese nurses supposedly were

00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:52.000
singing hymns and Marching songs. Yeah, it's

00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.559
morale up during this So still old had a mystique

00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:58.480
then after that a popular mystique in the United

00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.460
States But the thing was is still well as critics

00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:04.679
point out that he Abandoned the Chinese forces

00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:07.099
that he was supposed to be commanding He just

00:37:07.099 --> 00:37:09.000
smashed his radio So the Japanese wouldn't wouldn't

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:11.219
be able to capture it and walked out and left

00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:13.480
the Chinese behind without any guidance or direction

00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:17.659
The Chinese units some of them got into India

00:37:17.659 --> 00:37:21.420
some of got some got back into China But Chung

00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:23.780
Kai -Shek never forgave Stillwell for abandoning

00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:26.920
the Chinese forces in Burma in 1942. And he also

00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:28.780
didn't forgive him for getting his best divisions,

00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:31.119
like the 200th Division, chewed up during the

00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:33.980
fighting in Burma. So this was already they were

00:37:33.980 --> 00:37:36.019
off to a bad start from the very beginning of

00:37:36.019 --> 00:37:38.920
Stillwell's time in in CBI. And the relationship

00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:42.480
got worse from there. So Stillwell arrived in

00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:45.969
Chungking, Chung Kai -Shek's capital. June of

00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:49.050
1942 and he and showing chunk I check immediately

00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:52.230
began to debate what to do next Still well was

00:37:52.230 --> 00:37:54.710
brash and arrogant and did not show Chung any

00:37:54.710 --> 00:37:58.730
respect And this is partly due to just still

00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:00.929
else personality he was tactless and difficult

00:38:00.929 --> 00:38:03.769
and demanding But it also was because he viewed

00:38:03.769 --> 00:38:06.230
Chung's government, which the United States had

00:38:06.230 --> 00:38:07.949
recognized as the legitimate government of China

00:38:07.949 --> 00:38:11.820
only in 1928 One year after he took power one

00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:14.039
year after he took power, but still not that

00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:17.019
long ago Yeah, right only like 13 14 years before

00:38:17.019 --> 00:38:20.599
He viewed that as only one faction among the

00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:22.320
various political movements trying to gain control

00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.860
of China And it was not the one that he had much

00:38:24.860 --> 00:38:29.320
respect for He correctly viewed it as corrupt

00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:31.559
and he demanded an end to that corruption, but

00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:34.360
without any real success Here's what's interesting

00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:37.320
though to his dying day. He died in October 1946

00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.199
about a year after the war of stomach cancer

00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.059
Still well actually preferred the Chinese communists

00:38:43.059 --> 00:38:46.460
to the nationalists He was no communist, but

00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:48.599
he viewed the Chinese communists as what he called

00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:52.280
communists in name only Who were in reality?

00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:56.380
democratically inclined agrarian reformers Who

00:38:56.380 --> 00:38:58.239
he also thought did most of the fighting against

00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.550
the Japanese? these ideas were reinforced by

00:39:01.550 --> 00:39:03.730
reports he got from US embassy personnel who

00:39:03.730 --> 00:39:06.050
were shuttling back and forth between him and

00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:07.969
The Chinese communists which were who were up

00:39:07.969 --> 00:39:10.590
in yinan province, which is kind of north central

00:39:10.590 --> 00:39:14.769
China was their stronghold two of the embassy

00:39:14.769 --> 00:39:17.989
personnel in my research to play a big role in

00:39:17.989 --> 00:39:22.440
this were John Patton Davies jr. Yes John s service.

00:39:22.579 --> 00:39:25.500
Yes, we will encounter them subsequently. They're

00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:27.320
gonna become the among the China hands that you're

00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:29.320
gonna talk about in a future episode Yes, right

00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:31.840
So keep that in mind in a future episode about

00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:33.940
the kind of information they were giving to to

00:39:33.940 --> 00:39:36.260
still well at this time Well, and also one thing

00:39:36.260 --> 00:39:39.219
to bear in mind here when you're dealing with

00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:42.280
foreigners And this would apply to still well

00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:44.559
that might apply to other professions as well

00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.599
When you're hearing what you want to hear that's

00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.000
probably when the little voice inside you should

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.329
be saying Is this really on the up and up here?

00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:56.449
And I think that with Stillwell's personality,

00:39:57.090 --> 00:40:00.369
the sort of asceticism that the Chinese communists

00:40:00.369 --> 00:40:04.269
were turning into a virtue after their retreat

00:40:04.269 --> 00:40:07.130
to the Long March and everything was very appealing

00:40:07.130 --> 00:40:11.510
to him. He found this much more appealing than

00:40:11.510 --> 00:40:16.150
the sort of high life that he's encountering

00:40:16.150 --> 00:40:22.409
with Chiang Kai -shek and and Chiang Kai -shek's

00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:24.710
various relatives and in -laws here who are living

00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:29.929
high off the hog and not necessarily living a

00:40:29.929 --> 00:40:33.230
life of asceticism. So there's a certain appeal

00:40:33.230 --> 00:40:38.070
with his personality. They came across as stoic

00:40:38.070 --> 00:40:40.309
patriots trying to make China better, I guess,

00:40:40.309 --> 00:40:43.630
because he was stoic. Yes, and he also felt like

00:40:43.630 --> 00:40:47.730
there was always a higher calling to be patriotic

00:40:47.730 --> 00:40:50.619
and to defend the nation. Whatever nation we're

00:40:50.619 --> 00:40:52.639
talking about here and this was something he

00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:54.539
had gotten from his new england heritage and

00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:56.900
also from his time as west point He said he would

00:40:56.900 --> 00:40:59.139
rather shoulder a rifle with the communists than

00:40:59.139 --> 00:41:01.460
deal with chung kai shek and the nationalists

00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:03.960
And still i'll often press chung kai shek to

00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:06.119
welcome the communists into a coalition government

00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:08.280
Which actually was an idea that was on the table

00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:10.719
back then So that the communists could better

00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:12.699
contribute to defeating the japanese But of course

00:41:12.699 --> 00:41:14.420
that was anathema to chung kai shek who had no

00:41:14.420 --> 00:41:16.280
intention of sharing power with the uh with the

00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:21.199
communists Well, he also had He had, before 1927,

00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:23.940
he had made common cause with them. Yeah, so

00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:26.039
there's a lot of things like that that had happened,

00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:28.800
right? So it's not a crazy idea, but it wasn't

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.619
what Chung really wanted. No, he basically broke

00:41:31.619 --> 00:41:34.760
with the communists in 1927 and massacred them

00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:36.900
in Shanghai, and there's all sorts of bad blood

00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:38.940
as well. A lot of nasty things had happened since

00:41:38.940 --> 00:41:42.500
1927. Marshall mentioned the Long March. For

00:41:42.500 --> 00:41:44.639
listeners not familiar with that, it was an epic

00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:48.219
event in Chinese communist history. in 1934 and

00:41:48.219 --> 00:41:51.420
1935 in which the communists made a successful

00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:55.000
6200 mile year -long retreat from southeastern

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.900
China to northern China to avoid destruction

00:41:57.900 --> 00:42:01.599
by the Chinese nationalists. Casualty costs were

00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:05.159
high, but the fact that the party was able to

00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.920
survive Chinese destruction was probably the

00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:12.679
most significant part of this. In Chinese national

00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:16.929
mythology, this is Valley Forge. This is the

00:42:16.929 --> 00:42:19.929
great crucible by which the Chinese Communist

00:42:19.929 --> 00:42:24.750
Party survived outside adversaries. Okay, so

00:42:24.750 --> 00:42:26.769
Chiang Kai -shek and his ambassador in Washington,

00:42:27.030 --> 00:42:30.550
T .V. Sung. No, he is a brother -in -law. He

00:42:30.550 --> 00:42:32.670
is brother -in -law of Chiang Kai -shek. Yes

00:42:32.670 --> 00:42:35.949
They maintained that the Chinese Army's poor

00:42:35.949 --> 00:42:39.150
performance against Japan in China since 1937

00:42:39.150 --> 00:42:43.730
and in Burma in 1942 resulted merely from poor

00:42:43.730 --> 00:42:46.550
equipment. Give them the equipment they requested,

00:42:46.909 --> 00:42:50.630
and the army would improve. For his part, Stillwell

00:42:50.630 --> 00:42:52.530
maintained that the Chinese troops he had commanded

00:42:52.530 --> 00:42:55.889
in Burma were badly led, poorly equipped, poorly

00:42:55.889 --> 00:42:58.650
trained, suffering from poor health, and that

00:42:58.650 --> 00:43:01.309
the Chinese officer corps was corrupt, had displayed

00:43:01.309 --> 00:43:04.030
incompetence, stupidity, a lack of aggressiveness.

00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:06.769
So Stillwell's view was that the Chinese army

00:43:06.769 --> 00:43:09.690
needed deep reform. Including the sacking of

00:43:09.690 --> 00:43:12.110
incompetent and unaggressive officers and he

00:43:12.110 --> 00:43:15.489
wanted to reorganize Chinese Army divisions along

00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:18.469
the lines of US Army divisions and train and

00:43:18.469 --> 00:43:21.070
equip and supply them like US Army divisions

00:43:21.070 --> 00:43:23.989
but for chunk I shack still well his ideas were

00:43:23.989 --> 00:43:26.869
a threat and understanding why it requires us

00:43:26.869 --> 00:43:30.409
to understand some key aspects of Chung's National

00:43:30.409 --> 00:43:34.590
Revolutionary Army and also the way the powers

00:43:34.590 --> 00:43:39.110
worked within the army yes it consisted the army

00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:42.210
consisted of 300 divisions but it was by no means

00:43:42.210 --> 00:43:46.150
a monolithic national force of those divisions

00:43:46.150 --> 00:43:49.190
only about 30 were directly loyal to chunk i

00:43:49.190 --> 00:43:52.250
check the other 270 or so owed their loyalty

00:43:52.250 --> 00:43:54.670
to a warlord or provincial governor who happened

00:43:54.670 --> 00:43:57.230
to be allied with chunk i check so in a way it

00:43:57.230 --> 00:43:59.389
was more like a feudal army in medieval europe

00:43:59.389 --> 00:44:01.619
if you know your european history Were you owed

00:44:01.619 --> 00:44:03.800
your fealty to a you know your liege lord or

00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:05.699
something rather than a true modern national

00:44:05.699 --> 00:44:08.699
army like? Like the Americans assumed that that

00:44:08.699 --> 00:44:12.960
it was In an earlier episode we discussed how

00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.440
in the Chinese military culture of 1900 during

00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.360
the Boxer Rebellion Senior officers in the Chinese

00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.219
military viewed the equipment and ammunition

00:44:21.219 --> 00:44:23.820
and supplies assigned to them as their personal

00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:26.079
property and something that gave them a power

00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.659
base in Chinese politics and status and status

00:44:29.659 --> 00:44:33.760
this remained true in 1942. China's generals

00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.920
were not inclined to give up their power by surrendering

00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:38.940
any of their property if you want to call it

00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:42.199
that to any kind of reform effort nor were they

00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:44.179
inclined to get their divisions chewed up in

00:44:44.179 --> 00:44:46.659
combat because that too would reduce their power

00:44:46.659 --> 00:44:49.139
and this applied to Chiang Kai -shek himself

00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:52.059
because he was more the senior member of a coalition

00:44:52.059 --> 00:44:54.780
of generals than he was the commander of a national

00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:57.929
army in the western sense. And so he had to maintain

00:44:57.929 --> 00:45:00.690
his divisions, like any other member of his coalition,

00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:04.710
to maintain his power and status. In fact, Chung's

00:45:04.710 --> 00:45:06.849
army did not even have a supply system in the

00:45:06.849 --> 00:45:08.969
Western sense that could fuel and feed and supply

00:45:08.969 --> 00:45:12.110
its troops when its units moved. So Chung Kai

00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:14.369
-Shek also had to keep his various generals happy

00:45:14.369 --> 00:45:16.929
by apportioning the supplies and equipment to

00:45:16.929 --> 00:45:19.869
them that he received in a way that kept them

00:45:19.869 --> 00:45:22.809
satisfied with their political and military power

00:45:22.809 --> 00:45:25.860
relative to one another. And then there was a

00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:27.780
third consideration, and this is the one that

00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:29.260
tends to get the most attention from American

00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:32.940
historians, which is that, Chiang Kai -shek had

00:45:32.940 --> 00:45:35.900
been fighting an on -off civil war with the communists

00:45:35.900 --> 00:45:38.940
since 1927, and he had to worry about the resumption

00:45:38.940 --> 00:45:40.900
of that civil war with the Chinese communists

00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:43.880
once the Japanese had left. So he wanted to preserve

00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:48.639
his forces for that war. To reorganize the Chinese

00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:51.179
army, like Stillwell wanted to do, would require

00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:54.559
sacking generals loyal to him, and reapportioning

00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:56.739
equipment and supplies in what for Chiang Kai

00:45:56.739 --> 00:45:58.960
-shek were politically unfavorable ways. He could

00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:03.300
end up creating rivals if he starts putting competent

00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:07.300
people in positions of authority in this newly

00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:09.739
reformed national army. And that is one of his

00:46:09.739 --> 00:46:12.420
big concerns. And rivals who are better equipped

00:46:12.420 --> 00:46:14.739
than they used to be. And better equipped and

00:46:14.739 --> 00:46:17.860
maybe better generals than he is. And maybe that

00:46:17.860 --> 00:46:21.519
too, yes. So these are all issues that were playing

00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:25.579
a big role in Chiang's mind. So by by focusing

00:46:25.579 --> 00:46:28.059
on getting more and better equipment and that

00:46:28.059 --> 00:46:30.960
alone He could gain political capital with his

00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.500
generals and be prepared for the resumption of

00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:35.260
the war with the communists after the Japanese

00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:38.219
left and If you relied on the Allies to defeat

00:46:38.219 --> 00:46:41.380
Japan through operations outside of China he

00:46:41.380 --> 00:46:43.679
could keep his own losses to a minimum wait for

00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:45.619
Japan to lose the war elsewhere and then leave

00:46:45.619 --> 00:46:48.239
China and Then fight the communists with his

00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:50.320
better equipped forces and they're better equipped

00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.019
because of all the aid he got during World War

00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:56.260
two And there's also a tradition in Chinese military

00:46:56.260 --> 00:46:59.780
doctrine that it is better to defeat the enemy

00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:03.960
by not actually fighting him directly. Sun Tzu,

00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:05.980
Sun Tzu, win without fighting, that kind of thing.

00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:09.460
Win without fighting, yes. And so... Jiu Jitsu,

00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:11.900
the military version of Jiu Jitsu, yes. But this

00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:15.980
is something that Western generals and Western

00:47:15.980 --> 00:47:18.840
military officials at the time... I don't think

00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.980
had a sufficient appreciation for and just this

00:47:21.980 --> 00:47:25.840
is the desired outcome. You fight by not fighting

00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:29.920
and you maintain your status and prestige by

00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:32.559
having lots of equipment and lots of men who

00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:35.699
are loyal to you. And then what about corruption,

00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:39.639
right? Another big factor. It's true that Chiang

00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:41.400
Kai -shek tended to look the other way when his

00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.019
cronies engaged in theft and bribery and embezzlement.

00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:46.659
But there are sources out there more sympathetic

00:47:46.659 --> 00:47:48.789
to Chiang. that point out that China suffered

00:47:48.789 --> 00:47:51.889
from hyperinflation, Chinese military officers'

00:47:51.909 --> 00:47:54.190
salaries remained fixed and were not indexed

00:47:54.190 --> 00:47:56.610
in any way to that inflation. So as the purchasing

00:47:56.610 --> 00:47:58.769
power of their paychecks declined, they had to

00:47:58.769 --> 00:48:01.369
steal just to feed their families. Now that may

00:48:01.369 --> 00:48:05.590
be more exaggerated than the truth was. A lot

00:48:05.590 --> 00:48:07.210
of it may have had to do with greed as well.

00:48:07.590 --> 00:48:09.889
But it's still a factor to consider that to make

00:48:09.889 --> 00:48:11.909
a living, you had to steal in China or engage

00:48:11.909 --> 00:48:13.309
in corruption. It was part of the system. It

00:48:13.309 --> 00:48:15.269
was part of the system. It was part of the system

00:48:15.269 --> 00:48:18.610
and bear in mind here that in the period that

00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:21.489
we're talking about, the economy has essentially

00:48:21.489 --> 00:48:25.800
collapsed. I mean, in terms of, you know, All

00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:27.579
of the industrial production, as you pointed

00:48:27.579 --> 00:48:32.079
out, which is along the coast there, that's gone.

00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:35.900
You don't have any industrial capacity. You're

00:48:35.900 --> 00:48:38.739
dealing with the other sources of revenue are

00:48:38.739 --> 00:48:42.679
basically from the peasants and from agriculture,

00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:46.400
and that's being disrupted by the fighting. And

00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:51.280
the currency is essentially worthless. commodities,

00:48:51.699 --> 00:48:55.539
the hyperinflation aspect of it. So really, the

00:48:55.539 --> 00:48:57.820
currency that you have is more things than it

00:48:57.820 --> 00:49:00.139
is money. More of a barter economy. More of a

00:49:00.139 --> 00:49:03.300
barter economy. And so this fuels the whole corruption.

00:49:03.659 --> 00:49:05.539
Now, one of the things that we should mention

00:49:05.539 --> 00:49:09.119
is it's not just Chiang Kai -shek's associates.

00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:15.039
It's his family because another brother -in -law

00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:20.400
is finance minister. the the kung family and

00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:23.780
and this is the guy who the guy who is who who

00:49:23.780 --> 00:49:28.280
is the finance minister is essentially uh the

00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:33.159
richest person in china and money and things

00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:37.860
like that have a tendency to disappear which

00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:50.269
we'll get into i'm sure Another dispute between

00:49:50.269 --> 00:49:52.090
Stillwell and Chiang Kai -shek was over where

00:49:52.090 --> 00:49:54.829
to fight. So you got both an argument over how

00:49:54.829 --> 00:49:56.610
to apportion supplies and what to do with them

00:49:56.610 --> 00:49:59.030
and another one about where to fight. Both of

00:49:59.030 --> 00:50:00.630
them agreed that getting the Burma Road back

00:50:00.630 --> 00:50:03.210
open was important, that the Japanese had cut

00:50:03.210 --> 00:50:05.349
it when they conquered Burma and that cut off

00:50:05.349 --> 00:50:07.849
the supply line, Chiang Kai -shek's only supply

00:50:07.849 --> 00:50:10.389
line, other than the over -the -hump airlift.

00:50:11.670 --> 00:50:13.969
So what Chiang Kai -shek wanted was a major allied

00:50:13.969 --> 00:50:16.369
effort to retake all of Burma from the Japanese.

00:50:16.670 --> 00:50:19.070
that would reopen the port of Rangoon reopen

00:50:19.070 --> 00:50:21.730
the railroad from Rangoon to Lashio and reopen

00:50:21.730 --> 00:50:24.949
the Burma Road from Lashio to Chungking and He

00:50:24.949 --> 00:50:26.829
felt that this was the only way to get all the

00:50:26.829 --> 00:50:29.989
equipment and supplies he wanted into China Because

00:50:29.989 --> 00:50:31.769
you can bring a lot marine by ship and rail and

00:50:31.769 --> 00:50:35.070
you can't by flying things over the hump But

00:50:35.070 --> 00:50:37.969
still all viewed this as a waste of scarce resources

00:50:37.969 --> 00:50:40.250
Still well wanted to fight a more limited campaign

00:50:40.250 --> 00:50:43.150
to retake only northern Burma Where the Allies

00:50:43.150 --> 00:50:45.429
plan to build a new road called the Lido Road?

00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:47.239
and that was going to run from a town called

00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:49.940
Lido in India through northern Burma to the part

00:50:49.940 --> 00:50:52.699
of the Burma road still under Allied control.

00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:54.860
Stillwell thought anything beyond that was a

00:50:54.860 --> 00:50:56.820
dissipation of scarce resources that they could

00:50:56.820 --> 00:50:58.699
not afford in the China -Burma -India theater,

00:50:59.179 --> 00:51:01.380
and also a diversion of resources away from his

00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:03.940
plan to reform the Chinese army. And I mean,

00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.539
he's more of a realist in that he has a sense

00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:10.619
of this is a world war. You know, of the two...

00:51:10.829 --> 00:51:14.349
Still well seems more plugged into what's happening

00:51:14.349 --> 00:51:16.750
elsewhere because there's various times in which

00:51:16.750 --> 00:51:19.849
which Chiang Kai -shek will be like Insisting

00:51:19.849 --> 00:51:21.909
why don't I have my planes? Why don't I have

00:51:21.909 --> 00:51:26.030
my artillery pieces and meanwhile? The the the

00:51:26.030 --> 00:51:28.769
British are having to deal with Rommel over the

00:51:28.769 --> 00:51:33.329
desert and so resources are being Diverted right

00:51:33.329 --> 00:51:36.690
to to to preventing the Middle East from falling

00:51:36.690 --> 00:51:39.230
into Hitler's hands right to that point the British

00:51:39.230 --> 00:51:41.699
were busy in Europe Right and they would have

00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:43.519
had to supply a lot of the forces for this campaign

00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:47.139
that that trunk ishek wanted And they were busy

00:51:47.139 --> 00:51:49.159
there So they were disinclined to put a lot of

00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:50.920
resources into a place like Burma which they

00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:52.639
figured that they'd retake eventually anyway

00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:55.579
also worried about security in India because

00:51:55.579 --> 00:52:01.239
there is a sort of strong quit Quit India movement

00:52:01.239 --> 00:52:04.480
that Gandhi's leading to try to kick the British

00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:07.780
out of India once and for all right, so Stillwell

00:52:07.780 --> 00:52:10.239
viewed this idea as completely unrealistic and

00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:12.659
he and the US Army, Chung's idea I should say,

00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.460
is completely unrealistic. So he and US Army

00:52:15.460 --> 00:52:18.239
supply planners thought that the over -the -hump

00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.219
cargo flights from India, whatever successes

00:52:20.219 --> 00:52:22.340
they achieved, could never provide what Stillwell

00:52:22.340 --> 00:52:25.199
needed in China. And they also projected that

00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:27.599
the Lido Road by itself could allow trucks to

00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.440
bring in all the supplies and equipment Stillwell

00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:32.400
needed to reform the Chinese Army. And Stillwell

00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:34.659
wanted Chung Ka -Shek to commit his best divisions

00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:38.500
to a campaign in Burma to reconquer Northern

00:52:38.500 --> 00:52:42.159
Burma. The Lido Road's construction began in

00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:44.900
December 1942, but Chiang Kai -shek was hesitant

00:52:44.900 --> 00:52:47.340
to support Stilwell's idea because he thought

00:52:47.340 --> 00:52:49.119
that taking Northern Burma would not be worth

00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.000
the cost to Chinese forces because it would not

00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.219
result in enough supplies coming into China.

00:52:54.860 --> 00:52:56.980
So the focus is on getting as many supplies as

00:52:56.980 --> 00:52:59.619
possible. Yes. That's always a focus of Chiang

00:52:59.619 --> 00:53:03.420
Kai -shek. The dispute between the two over strategy

00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:05.159
and plans was never -ending and they developed

00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:07.400
a real disdain for one another now one thing

00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:11.400
about this Just to throw this in there Still

00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:14.920
well thought that it was his duty Again, this

00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:18.099
word duty that pops up with still a lot to speak

00:53:18.099 --> 00:53:21.199
truth to power to Chiang Kai -shek. Now, Chiang

00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:23.699
Kai -shek has taken a different cultural approach

00:53:23.699 --> 00:53:26.739
to this. The messenger who brings bad tidings

00:53:26.739 --> 00:53:29.340
is responsible for them, which is almost like

00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:33.840
a Chinese imperial take on things here. So, Chiang

00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:36.039
was used to getting all sorts of smoke blown

00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.960
up his ass here and he kind of enjoyed it. Still

00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:41.940
well thought look I'm gonna tell you the truth

00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:44.980
whether it hurts or not and we can we can proceed

00:53:44.980 --> 00:53:48.420
from there This was not Chang's way at all It

00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:50.440
got so acrimonious that still well soon began

00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:52.320
to call a chunk I check by the nickname peanut

00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.019
after a member of still well staff said that

00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:57.659
Chung was like a peanut perched on top of a dung

00:53:57.659 --> 00:54:01.199
pile For his part Chung viewed still well as

00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.699
brash and arrogant and he started asking Washington

00:54:03.699 --> 00:54:06.150
to replace still well Early as the summer of

00:54:06.150 --> 00:54:09.809
1942. Well, if not for all of his offices the

00:54:09.809 --> 00:54:13.269
Lynn lease Position was one. I was it was relieved

00:54:13.269 --> 00:54:15.610
still well it well I want I want him out of here

00:54:15.610 --> 00:54:17.570
was there was always a position it wasn't I want

00:54:17.570 --> 00:54:20.329
to give him a different job No, but there was

00:54:20.329 --> 00:54:22.750
there was relief still well, but there's also

00:54:22.750 --> 00:54:26.159
like Let's give somebody else in this position

00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:28.599
who wants to give me the supplies Yeah, lynn

00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:31.139
lease, you know and and still well viewed his

00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:33.119
position is lynn lease as being the leverage

00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:35.320
that he had over China, which it was I was talking

00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:36.940
about that earlier that that's exactly what it

00:54:36.940 --> 00:54:40.480
gave him, you know, and this was what was recognized

00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:44.280
by by people like stemson and people like Marshall

00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:46.099
back in washington, which we're going to get

00:54:46.099 --> 00:54:48.460
into yes, which brings us to the situation in

00:54:48.460 --> 00:54:50.820
washington Roosevelt, President Roosevelt, preferred

00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:52.760
what has been called a competitive management

00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:54.699
style, in which his subordinates essentially

00:54:54.699 --> 00:54:56.900
formed different interest groups that championed

00:54:56.900 --> 00:54:59.300
different ideas to him, allowing him to choose

00:54:59.300 --> 00:55:02.519
between those ideas. When it came to China, he

00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:04.320
needed to figure out how to get Chiang Kai -shek

00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:06.340
to fulfill his vision for China as one of the

00:55:06.340 --> 00:55:08.679
four policemen. And he was presented with two

00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:11.920
schools of thought. So still well, as Secretary

00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:14.960
of War Stimson, General George C. Marshall, he

00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:16.619
was chief of staff of the army, which is the

00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:20.519
most senior position in the uniformed army Still

00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:22.380
what was a protege of Marshall's and a personal

00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:24.599
friend of his he was the only person who called

00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:26.320
him George by the only personal George every

00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:28.360
else had to call him general or sir Yes, even

00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:29.719
president Roosevelt had to call him general.

00:55:29.900 --> 00:55:33.340
Yes. Anyway, so still well Simpson and Marshall

00:55:34.449 --> 00:55:37.269
urged FDR to give Chunkai Shek lend -lease aid

00:55:37.269 --> 00:55:40.730
on a quid pro quo basis. So if Chunkai Shek met

00:55:40.730 --> 00:55:43.050
U .S. demands for reform and offensive action

00:55:43.050 --> 00:55:45.349
against the Japanese, he would get more of the

00:55:45.349 --> 00:55:47.809
aid he wanted. But if he did not, he would be

00:55:47.809 --> 00:55:50.190
penalized by having the aid withheld. But Roosevelt

00:55:50.190 --> 00:55:53.230
heard a competing idea from Lachlan Curry, who

00:55:53.230 --> 00:55:55.010
was a White House assistant responsible for lend

00:55:55.010 --> 00:55:57.090
-lease aid. He was an economist, I believe, Michael,

00:55:57.090 --> 00:55:59.630
right? Yes, he was an economist and he had done...

00:55:59.579 --> 00:56:02.820
a lot of work in some of the domestic economic

00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:05.639
reforms of the New Deal. But he didn't have a

00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:07.260
lot of international experience. He did not have

00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:09.420
a lot of international experience, and he was

00:56:09.420 --> 00:56:12.820
somewhat naive when it came to these things.

00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:19.039
He did not really have much experience with China

00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:24.440
as well, and at one point when he was meeting

00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:26.659
with Marshall to talk about getting still well

00:56:26.659 --> 00:56:29.840
-relieved, Marshall just looked at him and Marshall

00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:33.079
had a great deal of presence and he just looked

00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:35.619
at him He says how long have you ever have have

00:56:35.619 --> 00:56:38.460
you been in China for? with all these proposals

00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:40.940
and and he said I've been China for three weeks

00:56:40.940 --> 00:56:45.420
and Marshall looked at him says three weeks and

00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:48.119
There was silence and curry knew he needed to

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:51.619
get out of Marshall's office So one thing though

00:56:51.619 --> 00:56:56.079
about curry is that in a way? even though he

00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:58.119
was naive about everything, there was a little

00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:00.739
bit more realism in terms of what Curry was recommending

00:57:00.739 --> 00:57:02.940
in terms of understanding Chiang Kai -shek in

00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:06.119
a way. And what I mean by that is Curry said

00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:08.579
that you had to understand Chung's requirements

00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:11.570
to manage his own political situation. You know,

00:57:11.570 --> 00:57:13.989
he was the the leader of a coalition of generals.

00:57:13.989 --> 00:57:16.090
He had to apportion things He had to put up with

00:57:16.090 --> 00:57:19.170
some corruption all these types of things So

00:57:19.170 --> 00:57:21.710
that the quid pro quo approach could alienate

00:57:21.710 --> 00:57:24.070
Chung and perhaps even prompt him to cease cooperating

00:57:24.070 --> 00:57:26.449
entirely and maybe even make a separate piece

00:57:26.449 --> 00:57:29.570
with Japan That's not an entirely unreasonable

00:57:29.570 --> 00:57:33.309
position today I know but the position that folks

00:57:33.309 --> 00:57:37.230
in Washington took was for a number of reasons

00:57:37.230 --> 00:57:41.369
Chang could not afford to give in to Japan Japan

00:57:41.369 --> 00:57:46.409
is invading China. And so whatever Chang would

00:57:46.409 --> 00:57:48.929
try to play the option of a separate piece with

00:57:48.929 --> 00:57:53.250
Japan card, even though it sounded bad and the

00:57:53.250 --> 00:57:55.170
United States had to do something to take care

00:57:55.170 --> 00:57:58.070
of him and satisfy his commands, Washington policymakers

00:57:58.070 --> 00:58:00.829
did not view a separate piece as a realistic

00:58:00.829 --> 00:58:03.590
option for Chang, because what the hell was he

00:58:03.590 --> 00:58:06.980
going to do? If he did this, He would lose face.

00:58:06.980 --> 00:58:09.380
He would lose status with his own people. And

00:58:09.380 --> 00:58:11.199
he certainly wasn't going to be getting anything

00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:13.940
more from us. And the Japanese were disinclined

00:58:13.940 --> 00:58:16.480
to make a separate piece anyway. You know, give

00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.960
up land, give up, give up this, give up that,

00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:22.099
you know. So, uh, evaluating both sides, quid

00:58:22.099 --> 00:58:25.219
quo pro quo versus Curry's view, Roosevelt chose

00:58:25.219 --> 00:58:28.139
Curry's view. This brings our story of vinegar

00:58:28.139 --> 00:58:31.739
Joe and the Generalissimo to late 1942 and early

00:58:31.739 --> 00:58:35.280
1943. with Franklin Roosevelt making the important

00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:38.079
decision to indulge Chiang Kai -shek and his

00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:40.900
demands and to take a softer approach towards

00:58:40.900 --> 00:58:44.679
him than General Stillwell had recommended. But

00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:47.440
our narrative of America's experience in China

00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:50.300
in World War II is far from over and is going

00:58:50.300 --> 00:58:53.000
to become even more complex when another American

00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:56.420
in China, General Claire Chennault, old leather

00:58:56.420 --> 00:58:59.059
face, the commander of the legendary Flying Tigers,

00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:02.380
enters our story. We'll begin with him in our

00:59:02.380 --> 00:59:30.099
next episode. email us at usa .amnesia at gmail

00:59:30.099 --> 00:59:33.159
.com and let us know what you think. Also, let

00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:35.099
us know about anything you think we missed or

00:59:35.099 --> 00:59:37.420
got wrong. We'd like to know about that too.

00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:40.679
And of course, please like and subscribe and

00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:42.579
let your friends and neighbors know about us.

00:59:43.099 --> 00:59:48.960
We also have a website. It's www .usofamnesia

00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:53.199
.com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself, Blake Hanke.

00:59:53.619 --> 00:59:54.420
Till next time.