208: Tea, Drugs, and Jesus - Cash My Check

WEBVTT

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What we're going to look at today is we're going

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to look at the Chinese Civil War, which was kind

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of a cold war during World War II, but became

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kind of a hot war after the war was over. And

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so this episode is entitled Cash My Check, which

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is a nickname that Stilwell and Truman like to

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use as it related to Chiang Kai -shek's perpetual

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quest for us money and u .s resources so let's

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get into that now welcome to the united states

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of amnesia we are the podcast that reminds us

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of what we have forgotten it is often said that

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history repeats itself mark twain allegedly said

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that history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes.

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But over time, many topics have become clouded

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by biases and oversimplifications, or have become

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mythologized and now are misunderstood. Misunderstanding

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means learning the wrong lessons from history,

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perhaps, or even learning nothing at all. And

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that can leave us poorly prepared for history's

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next rhyme. In this episode, Mike walks us through

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the complex situation in China in the aftermath

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of World War II, with armed Japanese operating

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in the country, Soviet forces occupying Manchuria,

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and the nationalist and communist Chinese resuming

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their civil war with one another. The decisive

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phase of this civil war ensues, culminating in

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the communist takeover of mainland China and

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the nationalist retreat to Taiwan. Marshall then

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leads our discussion of the efforts of American

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leaders, including President Truman and Secretaries

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of State George C. Marshall and Dean Acheson,

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to determine a way forward in their China policy,

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while Madam Chang and General Claire Chenault

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lobby for continued support to the corrupt nationalist

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regime of Chiang Kai -shek, whose constant demands

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for more American aid earn him The derisive nickname,

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Cash My Check. We discussed at length the frustrating

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experience the United States had in China during

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World War II. The Chinese Civil War had been

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raging on and off since 1927. And we've talked

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about how both Chiang Kai -shek and the communists

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spent World War II saving up their resources

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for the resumption of their civil war after the

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Japanese eventually left China. Chung Kai -shek

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at one point said, the Japanese are a disease

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of the skin, the communists are a disease of

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the heart. And that made clear where his priorities

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lay. And in fact, Chung and the communists were

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right. The civil war in China resumed following

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Japan's defeat in 1945. So let's establish a

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baseline of what happened in that civil war between

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1945 and 1950. We can't establish that baseline

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without first discussing the Soviet Union and

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Japan. The Soviet Union and Japan fought in a

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few border incidents along the Manchurian border,

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the Manchurian border with the Soviet Union and

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with Mongolia in the late 1930s. Most notably,

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something called the Lake Kassan incident, which

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was along the Manchurian -Soviet border in 1938,

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and the Khalkhin -Gol incident, which was along

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the Manchurian border with Mongolia in 1939.

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The Soviets were involved because they had a

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mutual assistance pact with Mongolia. And during

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World War II, the Soviet Union and Japan were

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on opposite sides, of course. The Soviet Union

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was on the Allied side and Japan was on the Axis

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side. Although World War II began in 1939, the

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Soviet Union did not enter the war until June

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1941 when the Axis countries invaded. And Japan

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did not enter the war until the attack on Pearl

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Harbor in December 1941. Yet even though they

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were on opposite sides after Japan entered the

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war, The Soviets and Japanese maintained a fairly

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scrupulous neutrality toward one another until

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just before the very end of World War II. And

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this was something that we had insisted on as

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soon as the war ended against Germany, that the

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Soviet Union would declare war against Japan.

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And we're going to get into that. Why did they

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maintain this neutrality with one another? Well,

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first off, they had signed a neutrality pact

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with one another in April 1941, and they both

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mostly honored that neutrality pact. There was

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a little bit of cheating here and there, but

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not much. Second, they both were busy somewhere

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else. The Soviet Union had its hands full. It

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was fighting on the eastern front of the European

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theater against the Germans, the Romanians, the

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Finns, the Hungarians, the Italians came, the

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Spanish sent volunteers. They were busy with

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that. And Japan had enough to do. fighting the

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United States, the British, the Dutch, the Australians,

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the New Zealanders, the Chinese, and so forth,

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in the Pacific and the China -Burma -India theaters.

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So they had no real interest in expanding either

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of their wars to face another enemy, meaning

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each other. But as the war progressed, the Western

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allies began asking the Soviet Union to enter

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the war against Japan. In November of 1943, at

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the Tehran Conference, Stalin said the Soviets

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would enter the war against Japan, but not until

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after Germany surrendered. The Western allies

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understood this because they knew the Soviets

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really had their hands full with the Germans.

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In October 1944, Stalin added that the Soviet

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Union could not go to war with Japan until the

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United States provided it with more aid in the

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Far East. There were limits on how much the Trans

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-Siberian Railroad could carry out there, for

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example, how much shipping could get out there.

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And so the United States agreed to provide more

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support to the Soviets in the Far East. At the

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Yalta Conference in February 1945, Stalin promised

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to declare war on Japan no later than three months

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after Germany surrendered, whenever that turned

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out to be. That turned out to be on May 7th,

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1945, when Germany surrendered to the Western

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Allies, and on May 8th, when Germany surrendered

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to the Soviet Union became final. And May 8th

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is the key date here, because that was the date

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that the Soviets considered to be the end of

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the war in Europe. And in accordance with the

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agreement that Stalin made at Yalta, The Soviet

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Union declared war on Japan on August 8th, 1945,

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which was exactly three months after the German

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surrender. Now, what else was going on at the

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same time? Well, I'm surprised he kept his word

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for once. Well, it's in between when we're dropping

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atomic bombs on Japan. Yes. And I'm going to

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digress here off the immediate subject, I suppose,

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to just point out that to this day. Some people

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will say that the Soviet Union came into the

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war against Japan at the very end just as a cynical

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move because the Soviets wanted to wait until

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Japan was on its last legs two days after the

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atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and the

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day before the Nagasaki bomb. So the position

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is that the United States had to do all the fighting

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and the Soviets just wanted to take advantage

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of that in East Asia at the very end and it was

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all very... I don't know, corrupt and cynical

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on their part. I have to say, though, that no

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doubt the Soviets did want to take advantage

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of the situation in East Asia. And the Soviet

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Union was a cynical power that was prone to do

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things like that. But you have to remember, too,

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that it's only fair to note that when the Soviets

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and the Western allies agreed that the Soviet

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Union would enter the war no later than three

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months after Germany surrendered, no one could

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predict when the Germans would surrender. No

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one knew when the atomic bombs would be ready

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to use. No one knew when the bombs would be dropped.

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And no one knew when Japan would surrender. In

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fact, there were some estimates that Japan might

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not surrender until something like 1948. Yeah.

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So the Soviet Union fulfilled its commitment.

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And the timing of that was serendipitous because

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you can't assume that the Soviets were clairvoyant

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about all these various things that were going

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to happen in the future from the standpoint of

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when that agreement was made. So I think it's

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only fair to point that out. I think so, too.

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Anyway, the Soviets declared war on Japan on

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August 8th, 1945. And during August, they launched

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four major offensives. The offensives didn't

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all start at the same time. They didn't all end

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at the same time. But they all overlapped with

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each other during August. The Soviets conquered

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the Kuril Islands. Those are the islands that

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stretch north from Japan up to the southern tip

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of the Kamchatka Peninsula. They separate the

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Sea of Okhotsk from the Pacific Ocean. And those

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islands have been Soviet or Russian ever since.

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They conquered a place called Karafuto, which

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was a Japanese province or prefecture that made

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up the southern half of Sakhalin Island. Sakhalin

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Island lies off the Russian coast. It's just

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north of Japan. It's between the Sea of Okhotsk

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and the Sea of Japan. And all of Sakhalin Island

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has also been Soviet or Russian ever since. The

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Soviets also invaded Korea, which had been a

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Japanese colony called Chosin since 1910. And

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the Soviets agreed with the United States that

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they, the Soviets, would occupy the Korean peninsula

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north of the 38th parallel, which means 38 degrees

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north latitude, while the United States occupied

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the part below the 38th parallel. And that's

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why we have North and South Korea. And these

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are also, particularly for Sakhalin Island, these

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are things that, in some cases, the imperial

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Russian government had to give up at the end

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of the Russia -Japanese War. So in some cases,

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Stalin is going in and retaking territory that

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the Tsars had to give up. The Kuril Islands had

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been... ceded to the Japanese under an agreement

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with the Russian Empire in the 1870s. Now, the

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Russian Empire got something back for that. Karafuto,

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the southern half of Sakhalin Island, was something

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that the Russians had to give up because of the

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Russo -Japanese War. And Japan and Russia or

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the Soviet Union both had designs on Korea for...

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That was part of the whole impetus for the Russia

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-Japanese War. So there were a lot of Russian

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national interests involved here that date back

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to before the Soviet times. One more interesting

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thing to note is that the Western world celebrates

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August 15th as Victory Over Japan Day or VJ Day,

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you'll hear it called. And it also recognizes

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the surrender documents aboard the battleship

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Missouri and Tokyo Bay on September 2nd as the

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end of World War II. Hostilities between the

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Western allies and Japan ended on August 15th

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and the actual surrender document was on September

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2nd. But the Soviets and Japanese had a different

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timetable here. They kept fighting after those

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dates. There was a significant amount of fighting

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in Manchuria, for example, even after hostilities

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with the Western allies ended. And the final

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Soviet offensive in the Kuril Islands didn't

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end until September 4th or 5th. So fighting went

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on after, quote unquote, the war ended in the

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Pacific. The Kirill still remains a big issue

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with the Japanese. There is, and it's a long,

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complicated thing. World War II between Japan

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and the Soviet Union, or now Russia, has never

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actually officially ended. No. There never was

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a peace treaty because... It's a very complicated

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thing, but basically Japan says that even though

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the Soviet Union, now Russia, occupied the four

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southernmost islands of the Kurils, those were

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never part of the same political deal that had

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been made in the 1870s or something. So it gets

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very detailed, very legalistic. But Japan has

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a claim on that, and because that has never been

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resolved, there's never been a peace treaty.

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So technically Japan and Russia are still at

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war from World War II. Okay, what's this all

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it's got to do with China, though? Let's bring

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it back to China. Those parts don't have that

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much to do with China, but the fourth major Soviet

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offensive has a great deal to do with China because

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that involved the Soviet conquest of Manchuria,

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which, by the way, brought to an end the Japanese

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puppet state of Manchukuo there, which we had

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discussed in an earlier episode. Sometimes you'll

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hear this operation called Operation August Storm

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in Western literature. But August Storm was just

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the title of an article by a U .S. Army historian,

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Lieutenant Colonel David Glantz. The article

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was published in 1983. And so since then, some

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Westerners have called it Operation August Storm.

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That has nothing to do with the actual name of

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the operation, which was the decidedly less poetic

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Manchurian strategic offensive operation, but

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very descriptive because that's what it was.

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The Japanese were really no match for the Soviets

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in Manchuria. The Soviets overran Manchuria in

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about three weeks. And when they did it, they

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captured a large number of Japanese troops and

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their weapons and ammunition and supplies. Now,

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when Japan surrendered in August 1945 to the

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Western allies, both the nationalists and the

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communists in China issued competing instructions

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ordering the Japanese forces in China to surrender

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to them and to them alone. To be clear, when

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we refer to the Nationalists, that's the Chiang

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Kai -shek government. That's the Republic of

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China, as opposed to the Communists. Anyway,

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the Japanese were receiving orders from both

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of them to only surrender to them and them alone,

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and then to make things more complicated, the

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Japanese surrender terms dictated by the Allies

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required the Japanese to surrender only to the

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Nationalists, which they recognized as the legitimate

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government of China. Now in Manchuria, again

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another complication, the Japanese surrendered

00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:23.049
to the Soviets, who had conquered. Although Chiang

00:13:23.049 --> 00:13:25.049
Kai -shek's nationalist government reminded the

00:13:25.049 --> 00:13:27.669
Japanese to hold in place until national forces

00:13:27.669 --> 00:13:30.850
could accept their surrender, the Chinese communists

00:13:30.850 --> 00:13:32.950
began accepting surrenders by Japanese forces

00:13:32.950 --> 00:13:35.289
and fighting those Japanese who did not surrender

00:13:35.289 --> 00:13:38.409
to the communists. The whole thing was a real

00:13:38.409 --> 00:13:41.549
mess, and it alarmed the American China -Burma

00:13:41.549 --> 00:13:44.169
-India theater commander, a U .S. Army general

00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:46.990
named Albert C. Wiedemeyer. He was the successor

00:13:46.990 --> 00:13:49.799
to... Joseph Stilwell, who we have discussed

00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:52.960
in a previous episode. Wiedemeyer was so alarmed

00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:55.080
that he asked that several U .S. Army divisions

00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.740
be sent to China to enforce the surrender terms.

00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:00.659
But the U .S. Army Chief of Staff, General George

00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:03.000
C. Marshall, that's the most senior uniformed

00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.940
position in the Army, replied that the occupation

00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:08.379
of Japan and Korea was the U .S. priority for

00:14:08.379 --> 00:14:11.899
the use of those divisions. So no U .S. divisions

00:14:11.899 --> 00:14:14.860
were sent to China. And what resulted from this

00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:19.129
was a very weird situation. in which the U .S.

00:14:19.149 --> 00:14:22.169
policy was to leave Japanese forces in place

00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:27.009
in China, still armed, to hold off the communists

00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:30.070
from seizing territory until Chung's nationalist

00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:33.210
forces could accept Japanese surrenders and occupy

00:14:33.210 --> 00:14:35.789
the territory themselves. And we saw this during

00:14:35.789 --> 00:14:39.809
the war as well, where the communists were so

00:14:39.809 --> 00:14:43.850
distrusted by Chiang that he preferred to leave

00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:47.750
the Japanese in place. And this is highly irregular.

00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:50.429
Usually at the end of the war, you disarm the

00:14:50.429 --> 00:14:52.990
enemy who you just defeated and you send them

00:14:52.990 --> 00:14:54.590
home from whatever countries they're occupying.

00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:56.309
We were actually leaving the Japanese in place

00:14:56.309 --> 00:14:59.809
and armed so they could keep fighting after the

00:14:59.809 --> 00:15:03.250
war was over. So very, very unusual. But President

00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:06.490
Truman, he had succeeded to the presidency when

00:15:06.490 --> 00:15:10.529
Roosevelt died in office in April of 1945. Truman

00:15:10.529 --> 00:15:12.610
feared that if the Japanese forces simply left

00:15:12.610 --> 00:15:14.690
China immediately, the communists would overrun

00:15:14.690 --> 00:15:17.659
China. So in a way, the Japanese forces were

00:15:17.659 --> 00:15:20.720
garrisoning China against communists for the

00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.559
United States. And presumably the nationalists,

00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:27.419
too. Well, yes, and the nationalists as well.

00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:30.799
A very unusual situation. Now, meanwhile, the

00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:34.240
Soviets up in Manchuria gave permission for the

00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.039
Chinese communists to move into Manchuria, where

00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.960
they were shielded by Soviet occupation forces.

00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:41.179
The nationalists couldn't do anything about the

00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:43.399
Soviets' military forces being there, and the

00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:44.980
United States wasn't going to do anything about

00:15:44.980 --> 00:15:47.279
it. So this is a pretty safe space for the Chinese

00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.399
communists. Now, the Soviets started a phase

00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.460
withdrawal from Manchuria late in 1945, but they

00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:56.480
remained in Manchuria until May of 1946. And

00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.259
what they did was they handed over a lot of captured

00:15:59.259 --> 00:16:01.539
Japanese equipment and weapons and ammunition

00:16:01.539 --> 00:16:05.980
and supplies to the Chinese communists. The Soviets

00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:08.120
dismantled industrial machinery and plants in

00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.940
Manchuria and shipped it back to the Soviet Union.

00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:11.600
They did very much the same thing in Eastern

00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:13.769
Germany. This is their way of rebuilding their

00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:15.470
industry after all the destruction during World

00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:18.169
War II. So before they left, they took a lot

00:16:18.169 --> 00:16:20.049
with them. But they did leave behind some of

00:16:20.049 --> 00:16:21.990
their own equipment and supplies for the communists

00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:24.870
to use. There's a little bit of controversy over

00:16:24.870 --> 00:16:26.610
that. There was some discussion about the Soviets

00:16:26.610 --> 00:16:29.389
actually straightforwardly supplying the communists.

00:16:29.889 --> 00:16:31.649
Others saying, well, no, they didn't do that.

00:16:32.669 --> 00:16:34.769
The truth appears to be that maybe they didn't

00:16:34.769 --> 00:16:38.269
directly supply the communists with a real pipeline,

00:16:38.470 --> 00:16:40.049
but they did leave behind equipment and supplies

00:16:40.049 --> 00:16:42.149
they didn't take back with them. The communists

00:16:42.149 --> 00:16:44.970
had access to those. At this stage, Stalin is

00:16:44.970 --> 00:16:48.070
still taking a wait -and -see attitude towards

00:16:48.070 --> 00:16:52.710
the Chinese communists. China is not in an economic

00:16:52.710 --> 00:16:56.470
position that would lend itself to. proletarian

00:16:56.470 --> 00:16:59.889
revolution. And this would be something that

00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:02.789
Mao would later ideologically turn on its head.

00:17:02.929 --> 00:17:05.190
It's not industrial workers. You can also have

00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:08.230
peasants forming a revolution, which was Mao's

00:17:08.230 --> 00:17:10.289
take on Marxism. Which is the opposite of the

00:17:10.289 --> 00:17:12.309
Russian approach. Which is the, well, the Russian,

00:17:12.349 --> 00:17:16.150
yeah. The proletariat. Or even classical Marxism.

00:17:16.210 --> 00:17:19.250
Well, classical Marxism, yeah. Yeah, sure. The

00:17:19.250 --> 00:17:21.130
Soviets left some equipment and supplies behind.

00:17:21.250 --> 00:17:23.710
They turned over the Japanese equipment and supplies

00:17:23.710 --> 00:17:26.230
and weapons to the communists. And they also

00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:30.410
essentially turned over northeastern China to

00:17:30.410 --> 00:17:33.289
the Chinese communists. The Chinese communists

00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:35.789
had firm control of the countryside. We talked

00:17:35.789 --> 00:17:38.529
about how Stilwell admired the communists. He

00:17:38.529 --> 00:17:40.789
thought they were democratically inclined agrarian

00:17:40.789 --> 00:17:42.589
reformers and thought they were better people

00:17:42.589 --> 00:17:45.509
than the nationalists. Well, they weren't democratically

00:17:45.509 --> 00:17:47.710
inclined. They did have land reform policies,

00:17:47.869 --> 00:17:51.309
though, that appealed to the peasants in China,

00:17:51.369 --> 00:17:54.329
many of whom were landless and starving. So this

00:17:54.329 --> 00:17:57.509
gave them a definite advantage over the nationalists

00:17:57.509 --> 00:17:59.430
out in the countryside. And the nationalists

00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:03.230
are still very urban in their appeal. Yes. By

00:18:03.230 --> 00:18:05.349
the time the Japanese surrendered in August and

00:18:05.349 --> 00:18:09.289
September 1945, the... to the Allies, the Communists

00:18:09.289 --> 00:18:11.430
could field an army of something like 3 .2 million

00:18:11.430 --> 00:18:13.509
regulars and militia. I think it was a million

00:18:13.509 --> 00:18:16.390
regulars and 2 .2 million militia. That's an

00:18:16.390 --> 00:18:19.190
astounding number to me. Yeah, that's a significant

00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:21.690
force. The United States airlifted nationalist

00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:24.529
forces into cities in northeastern China to accept

00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:26.430
the surrender of Japanese forces there and take

00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:28.980
control of that area. But when the nationalists

00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:31.079
arrived, they did things like seizing the banks

00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:33.500
and the factories and commercial properties because

00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:35.220
they said they had to to protect them from being

00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:37.299
seized by the communists. But the problem with

00:18:37.299 --> 00:18:39.079
doing that was that it alienated the people in

00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:42.779
the cities because you were. taking away their

00:18:42.779 --> 00:18:44.880
businesses and their property and their livelihoods.

00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:50.200
This is not being held in trust. This is because...

00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.799
It's being taken. It's being taken. It's being

00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.440
seized, yes. And one of the problems that you're

00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.500
getting with this sort of escalation of corruption

00:18:57.500 --> 00:19:01.500
under the Nationalists is that the economy, let's

00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:04.359
keep this in mind, the economy collapsed for

00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:09.130
China. like five years ago, in which there is

00:19:09.130 --> 00:19:11.930
no revenue coming in, and essentially what's

00:19:11.930 --> 00:19:14.930
running the economy is corruption. That is essentially

00:19:14.930 --> 00:19:17.609
the economy. Yeah, because China, the nationalist

00:19:17.609 --> 00:19:21.710
part of China, had hyperinflation. Yes. And there

00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:24.710
was no policy of increasing anyone's salaries

00:19:24.710 --> 00:19:27.430
or wages to match the inflation. So the only

00:19:27.430 --> 00:19:30.069
way you could really support yourself was through

00:19:30.069 --> 00:19:32.549
engaging in grafted corruption. Yes. So the whole

00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:34.869
system was designed around theft. So when the

00:19:34.869 --> 00:19:36.890
nationalists arrived in your city, graft and

00:19:36.890 --> 00:19:38.750
corruption and theft pretty much followed. And

00:19:38.750 --> 00:19:40.390
that's what happened in northeastern China. Which

00:19:40.390 --> 00:19:43.069
doesn't necessarily expand your base of support.

00:19:43.269 --> 00:19:45.009
No. So you've already lost the countryside and

00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:46.930
now you're losing the cities. Yes. So not much

00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:49.509
is left, right? The cities in the north. Yeah.

00:19:50.069 --> 00:19:53.369
So fighting broke out continually between the

00:19:53.369 --> 00:19:55.309
communists and the nationalists during late 1945

00:19:55.309 --> 00:19:58.369
and early 1946, even though there were efforts

00:19:58.369 --> 00:20:00.720
to hammer out an effective peace agreement. In

00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.000
fact, while the negotiations were going on, fighting

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.680
happened even then. And finally, the negotiations

00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:07.720
broke down, there was no peace agreement, and

00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:09.779
a full -scale civil war broke out in June of

00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:14.180
1946. So how did that go? The Nationalists attempted

00:20:14.180 --> 00:20:16.599
some broad offensives into northeastern China,

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.299
which was the power base for the Communists at

00:20:19.299 --> 00:20:22.099
the time. But the Communists fell back. And the

00:20:22.099 --> 00:20:24.819
offensives failed when they lost momentum. And

00:20:24.819 --> 00:20:28.759
this would be expected because the terrain up

00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.940
there actually favored the Chinese communists.

00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:33.680
Who had engaged in guerrilla warfare against

00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:35.660
the Japanese. And that was one of their main

00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:37.920
ways of engaging in warfare. So they were adept

00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.220
at this. They had a lot of practice. And the

00:20:39.220 --> 00:20:41.420
nationalists were trying to do a set -piece battle.

00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:44.450
Yeah. But not only did the offensives lose momentum,

00:20:44.609 --> 00:20:46.890
but also the Nationalists suffered a lot of heavy

00:20:46.890 --> 00:20:49.349
casualties in the fighting. The Communists suffered

00:20:49.349 --> 00:20:51.569
casualties too, but the Nationalists lost a lot.

00:20:52.210 --> 00:20:55.450
Particularly with equipment. Well, yeah, we're

00:20:55.450 --> 00:20:57.690
going to come to that. The Nationalists then

00:20:57.690 --> 00:20:59.730
tried more targeted offensives on narrower fronts,

00:20:59.890 --> 00:21:03.430
but those also failed. And this will sound familiar

00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:05.549
to our listeners. Some National generals were

00:21:05.549 --> 00:21:07.769
hesitant to have their forces under their personal

00:21:07.769 --> 00:21:10.670
command suffer losses. Because that would weaken

00:21:10.670 --> 00:21:12.730
their own personal status and power within the

00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:15.049
nationalist Chinese system. And this mentality

00:21:15.049 --> 00:21:19.910
persists. It persists until there's no more nationalist

00:21:19.910 --> 00:21:23.009
China left and everybody's gone to Taiwan. And

00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:24.769
it's an attitude that we've explored before,

00:21:24.930 --> 00:21:27.190
right? Because that attitude was visible during

00:21:27.190 --> 00:21:30.029
the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. It was visible in

00:21:30.029 --> 00:21:33.410
China all through World War II and the Sino -Japanese

00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:36.509
War and World War II. So there it is again. There's

00:21:36.509 --> 00:21:39.869
a through line there. Meanwhile. The communist

00:21:39.869 --> 00:21:42.210
forces had acquired tanks and heavy artillery,

00:21:42.410 --> 00:21:44.690
some from captured Japanese stocks, and some

00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:46.470
captured from the nationalists in these failed

00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:49.289
offensives. And so the communists were no longer

00:21:49.289 --> 00:21:52.910
just a peasant army of riflemen. The nationalists

00:21:52.910 --> 00:21:55.670
had some—the communists were no longer just a

00:21:55.670 --> 00:21:57.690
peasant army of riflemen. The nationalists had

00:21:57.690 --> 00:22:00.970
some successes in early 1947. But that summer,

00:22:01.009 --> 00:22:03.150
the communists went on the offensive, and the

00:22:03.150 --> 00:22:04.990
fighting began to focus on nationalist -held

00:22:04.990 --> 00:22:08.930
areas instead of communist -held ones. The communists

00:22:08.930 --> 00:22:11.609
advanced out of Manchuria and northeastern China,

00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:13.769
as well as from the Shandong Peninsula. I've

00:22:13.769 --> 00:22:15.509
mentioned that before. That's the peninsula that

00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:18.190
sticks out toward Korea between the Yellow Sea

00:22:18.190 --> 00:22:21.470
and the East China Sea. And in decisive fighting

00:22:21.470 --> 00:22:25.390
in 1948 and 1949, the communists secured those

00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:29.109
areas and pushed further south. After World War

00:22:29.109 --> 00:22:31.329
II ended, the nationalists had reestablished

00:22:31.329 --> 00:22:33.930
their capital at Nanking, now called Nanjing,

00:22:34.029 --> 00:22:37.720
in eastern China. which it had been before the

00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.960
Japanese occupied it. But as the communists advanced,

00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:44.119
they lost Nanking, and they had to move successively

00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:47.019
to Canton, which is now called Guangzhou in the

00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.640
south of China, then west to Chongqing, now called

00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.220
Chongqing, which is what they had used as their

00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:56.380
alternative capital during World War II. Then

00:22:56.380 --> 00:22:58.279
I think it was further west, if I got my geography

00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:03.359
right, to Chengdu. In October 1949, the communists

00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.700
proclaimed the People's Republic of China. which

00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:08.859
you'll often hear referred to as the PRC. Not

00:23:08.859 --> 00:23:10.359
to be confused with the Nationalist government,

00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:12.700
which was and still is called officially the

00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:17.359
Republic of China. In December 1949, the Nationalist

00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:20.519
capital moved to Taipei on Taiwan, which is where

00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.920
it still is today. Now, people tend to view that

00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.059
as the end of the Chinese Civil War, but it actually

00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:30.279
continued. Nationalist forces remained active

00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:32.259
in the south of China, and fighting continued

00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:35.430
there into 1950. which is when the communists

00:23:35.430 --> 00:23:38.170
conquered Hainan Island. That's the large island

00:23:38.170 --> 00:23:40.569
off China's southern coast in the South China

00:23:40.569 --> 00:23:43.509
Sea. And nationalist guerrilla warfare in the

00:23:43.509 --> 00:23:46.289
mainland continued into the 1950s, some of it

00:23:46.289 --> 00:23:47.970
even occurring along the China -Burma border,

00:23:48.069 --> 00:23:50.069
where some nationalists had fallen back to as

00:23:50.069 --> 00:23:52.990
they were being pushed out. And hundreds of thousands

00:23:52.990 --> 00:23:59.029
of people died in this fighting after the nationalists

00:23:59.029 --> 00:24:03.119
had moved to Taipei, Taiwan. There was major

00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:07.720
fighting that continued into the 1950s. The Nationalists

00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.900
maintained a presence in Tibet until 1951, but

00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:13.920
then the Communists annexed Tibet and threw the

00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:17.599
Nationals out. Fighting over islands off the

00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.200
Chinese coast between the two sides continued

00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.480
into the mid -1950s. It was actually an issue

00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.990
in the 1960 election, Kimoy and Matsu. Yes, yes.

00:24:27.069 --> 00:24:28.789
That was two of the islands just off the Chinese

00:24:28.789 --> 00:24:30.430
coast. They remained under nationalist control.

00:24:30.710 --> 00:24:33.369
And there was significant fighting, artillery

00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:35.410
fire, things like that happening even well into

00:24:35.410 --> 00:24:38.470
the 1950s. And it has to be noted that the Chinese

00:24:38.470 --> 00:24:41.430
Civil War has never ended. Both the People's

00:24:41.430 --> 00:24:43.730
Republic of China on the mainland and the Republic

00:24:43.730 --> 00:24:47.730
of China on Taiwan both say that Taiwan and the

00:24:47.730 --> 00:24:49.990
mainland are all one country. They're all China.

00:24:50.589 --> 00:24:52.670
Each officially claims to be the legitimate government

00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:54.799
of that country. And that's still the official

00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:59.339
status today. As this all played out, the United

00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:01.240
States took a stance that no doubt will surprise

00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.700
many of our listeners. U .S. support for the

00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:06.319
Nationalists was rather tepid as the United States

00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.359
focused on the occupation of Japan and Southern

00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.579
Korea. So it's important to consider that Harry

00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:15.680
Truman was not Franklin Roosevelt. They may have

00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.339
both been Democrats, but Truman had a different

00:25:18.339 --> 00:25:23.960
attitude towards China than... FDR did. FDR tended

00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.740
to be a little bit more forgiving and understanding

00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:31.279
of Chiang Kai -shek and his wife and their associates.

00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:35.779
Truman was a little bit more dogmatic about just

00:25:35.779 --> 00:25:39.740
how China was supposed to work and how effective

00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:43.160
things were supposed to be and what they were

00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:46.529
actually getting in terms of aid money. Truman

00:25:46.529 --> 00:25:49.349
was very much looking at what sort of performance

00:25:49.349 --> 00:25:54.210
he was seeing Chiang Kai -shek undertake and

00:25:54.210 --> 00:25:56.990
was concerned more than FDR was about the corruption.

00:25:57.230 --> 00:26:00.569
And he did not necessarily have the same allegiance

00:26:00.569 --> 00:26:03.609
to the nationalist government of the Chiangs.

00:26:03.750 --> 00:26:09.690
He did not. And in fact, Truman hoped that even

00:26:09.690 --> 00:26:11.609
if a communist government took over, which he

00:26:11.609 --> 00:26:14.490
thought that's the way things were headed. He

00:26:14.490 --> 00:26:16.170
was hoping that a communist government would

00:26:16.170 --> 00:26:18.690
split with the Soviets in the same way that Tito

00:26:18.690 --> 00:26:22.910
did in Yugoslavia. Or, and we'll get into this

00:26:22.910 --> 00:26:25.710
a little bit more in the second half, or that

00:26:25.710 --> 00:26:29.609
some other government, you know, like the preferred

00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:32.549
government we could call it, the ideal U .S.

00:26:32.549 --> 00:26:35.210
government for China. And a lot of this is built

00:26:35.210 --> 00:26:37.410
on the whole idea that China is becoming a democracy.

00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:39.569
Would emerge. Would emerge. So like a coalition

00:26:39.569 --> 00:26:41.829
government of communists and nationalists. He

00:26:41.829 --> 00:26:43.710
felt they would just get rid of the communists.

00:26:43.710 --> 00:26:45.609
The communists would come in. They would fail.

00:26:45.950 --> 00:26:50.869
Oh, okay. And then let's just say Plan C, neither

00:26:50.869 --> 00:26:52.789
the nationalists, who he didn't like because

00:26:52.789 --> 00:26:55.730
of corruption, neither the communists, which

00:26:55.730 --> 00:26:57.089
he didn't like because they were communists,

00:26:57.130 --> 00:27:00.289
but something else, kind of like these noble

00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:03.819
peasants of Pearl Buck's books. would actually

00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:07.339
come in and they would form a government. Okay.

00:27:08.180 --> 00:27:11.099
That's Truman's vision. So that was the hope

00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:14.039
on the U .S. side. But there are other hopes

00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:17.319
as well. My point that I want to make is it wasn't

00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:19.599
as anti -communist as people would think nowadays

00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.420
probably. We were actually comfortable with it

00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:24.500
turning communist if it really had to, and the

00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:26.559
hope was that that communist government even

00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:29.380
would be not pro -Soviet and it would be a split

00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:31.380
away from them. But you said this was a different

00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:34.490
flavor of communism. Yes, it's a different flavor

00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:38.410
of communism, and I will just – we'll save some

00:27:38.410 --> 00:27:40.470
of this for the second half of the show. Although

00:27:40.470 --> 00:27:43.549
I don't think that that's a factor here because

00:27:43.549 --> 00:27:46.750
this is 1949, 1950. We're still thinking in terms

00:27:46.750 --> 00:27:49.369
of monolithic world communism, right? Yes. Even

00:27:49.369 --> 00:27:50.970
with the Tito experience, we're still thinking

00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:54.890
in those terms. Yes. We are definitely thinking

00:27:54.890 --> 00:27:58.970
in those terms, and I would argue, as we'll see,

00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:03.089
that we're going to have – a very confused approach

00:28:03.089 --> 00:28:07.089
to China going communist on the part of U .S.

00:28:07.130 --> 00:28:14.210
policymakers in Washington. 1949 is not, some

00:28:14.210 --> 00:28:18.190
people might like to think of it as being a year

00:28:18.190 --> 00:28:21.450
in which we reach certain decisions. It was very

00:28:21.450 --> 00:28:23.630
confused as to what our approach was going to

00:28:23.630 --> 00:28:25.789
be. Suffice it to say for now, though, right,

00:28:25.910 --> 00:28:29.490
that we were lukewarm toward the nationalists.

00:28:30.619 --> 00:28:34.160
In the United States, if that. But for their

00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.859
part, the communist Chinese saw the United States

00:28:36.859 --> 00:28:39.400
as a neocolonial power that was hostile to the

00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:42.559
PRC. Because of their aid to the nationalists.

00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.200
Because we continue to recognize the Republic

00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:46.180
of China, the nationalists as a legitimate government,

00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.119
because we continue to give them aid and things

00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.460
like that. So there was a misunderstanding between

00:28:51.460 --> 00:28:53.500
the two sides of what the U .S. attitude toward

00:28:53.500 --> 00:28:57.000
communists in China actually was. So what was

00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:58.680
going on in the United States during all of this?

00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:01.559
And how well the United States understand China

00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:16.200
during this time? Let's get into that next. Mike

00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:18.859
has kind of summarized for us what was happening

00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:23.039
in China. What I'd like to talk about now is...

00:29:23.390 --> 00:29:26.769
just how all of these events are impacting the

00:29:26.769 --> 00:29:29.869
U .S., both in terms of policy and approach to

00:29:29.869 --> 00:29:33.369
China and the Far East. As Mike has mentioned,

00:29:33.630 --> 00:29:36.890
Harry Truman is now the president, and he has

00:29:36.890 --> 00:29:39.769
a different post -war vision than Roosevelt did.

00:29:40.309 --> 00:29:46.670
The priority for Truman was not the world under

00:29:46.670 --> 00:29:48.970
the supervision of four policemen. The United

00:29:48.970 --> 00:29:52.789
States needed to contest. for influence with

00:29:52.789 --> 00:29:55.069
one of those policemen, the Soviet Union. And

00:29:55.069 --> 00:29:57.289
the four policemen, just to review, were going

00:29:57.289 --> 00:29:59.410
to be, in Roosevelt's vision, the United States,

00:29:59.589 --> 00:30:02.930
the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the

00:30:02.930 --> 00:30:07.009
Republic of China, or China. China, which was

00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:08.809
Chiang Kai -shek. Which at the time was recognized

00:30:08.809 --> 00:30:11.450
as Chiang Kai -shek. Yes. Okay, just so everybody

00:30:11.450 --> 00:30:15.369
knows. Yeah, and I mean, one thing, and this

00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:20.460
may seem like a nicety here, Chiang had a certain

00:30:20.460 --> 00:30:25.059
advantage, probably his only advantage, over

00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:27.779
the communists in that he actually had a government.

00:30:28.180 --> 00:30:31.619
And it is a big deal for the communists not to

00:30:31.619 --> 00:30:33.839
have a government, and they will not have a government

00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:38.359
until October 1949 when Mao establishes a government

00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:42.900
in Beijing. So the communists, as far as the

00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:44.960
international community is concerned during this

00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.890
period, they're a gang of people. who you may

00:30:48.890 --> 00:30:50.930
have certain feelings about one way or the other,

00:30:51.049 --> 00:30:53.650
but until you have a government declared, you

00:30:53.650 --> 00:30:56.690
cannot recognize that as the government. They're

00:30:56.690 --> 00:30:58.849
just an insurgency against the Republic of China.

00:30:58.970 --> 00:31:00.789
Yes. It's how they were viewed. Yeah, they're

00:31:00.789 --> 00:31:03.369
not necessarily, you don't have a foreign minister,

00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:06.990
you don't have someone to be accredited to with

00:31:06.990 --> 00:31:09.549
ambassadors and things like that. So this is

00:31:09.549 --> 00:31:12.829
why, this was one advantage that Chiang did have

00:31:12.829 --> 00:31:16.410
over them in having a government, a chaotic government.

00:31:17.549 --> 00:31:21.910
But still a government which functioned under

00:31:21.910 --> 00:31:25.029
the terms of, say, like how countries relate

00:31:25.029 --> 00:31:27.750
to each other. They did not declare the People's

00:31:27.750 --> 00:31:29.509
Republic of China, the communist government.

00:31:29.690 --> 00:31:32.049
They did not declare it until October of 1949.

00:31:32.170 --> 00:31:35.589
Yes. Why did they take so long to do it? Given

00:31:35.589 --> 00:31:37.950
what you're saying, do you know? I don't know.

00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:41.809
I don't know in terms of what – it's basically

00:31:41.809 --> 00:31:45.210
a decision that Mao made to put off doing this.

00:31:46.289 --> 00:31:48.190
until they had actually established themselves

00:31:48.190 --> 00:31:50.789
in Beijing. But I don't think that it's anything

00:31:50.789 --> 00:31:54.150
more than that. Dramatic flair. Yeah. We're in

00:31:54.150 --> 00:31:55.710
Beijing now. We've conquered a lot of the country.

00:31:55.769 --> 00:31:57.430
Now we're a government. Now we're a government,

00:31:57.769 --> 00:32:01.450
yes. I mean, you know, Mao was not. If you want

00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:03.150
to get taken seriously, you have to control territory.

00:32:03.509 --> 00:32:05.609
You have to have own significant things in the

00:32:05.609 --> 00:32:08.700
country. Maybe if he declared it too early. It

00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:10.920
wouldn't be taken very seriously. He wanted to

00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:12.480
be taken seriously from the beginning or something.

00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:14.460
I mean, I could see different ways of thinking

00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:18.240
about it. Mao is not one of these people who

00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:22.119
gets upset about niceties when they were actually

00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.920
declaring on October 1st. Mal just kind of took

00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.579
a very lackadaisical, you would think that here

00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:31.880
we are after all these years, and he's really

00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:34.200
kind of nonplussed by this. He's a little bit

00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.319
late showing up for the ceremony because he overslept.

00:32:37.579 --> 00:32:42.680
And so I think that that, too, is a factor that

00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:45.500
needs to be appreciated here. He didn't really

00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:48.940
care that much. No, he didn't. Okay. All right.

00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:52.680
In terms – and you've kind of alluded to this,

00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.359
Mike. In terms of where the priorities were,

00:32:55.660 --> 00:32:58.420
they were Europe. They were rebuilding Europe

00:32:58.420 --> 00:33:01.500
under the Marshall Plan and they were also rebuilding

00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:05.700
China – rebuilding Japan. And there was an emphasis

00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.829
on – Korea, what we now call South Korea. Now,

00:33:09.869 --> 00:33:12.390
South Korea, there were some other places that

00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:15.509
were emphasized as well. You know, Korea comes

00:33:15.509 --> 00:33:17.329
to the forefront because we're going to be fighting

00:33:17.329 --> 00:33:21.569
a war there in 1950. But there were other priorities

00:33:21.569 --> 00:33:24.710
other than China that were there. And people

00:33:24.710 --> 00:33:28.920
had a lot of... different opinions about what

00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.799
China's importance or lack of importance was.

00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:35.359
George Marshall, who had actually been sent to

00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:40.119
try to negotiate as secretary, as he had left

00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:43.099
his role as the army head and before he became

00:33:43.099 --> 00:33:46.380
secretary of state, he was actually over there

00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:49.839
trying to resolve the civil war and to work out

00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:52.119
some sort of deal. You know, we should be clear

00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:53.640
about something, too, though, which is that.

00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.680
the United States, even though we were interested

00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.720
in what happened in Southern Korea, we had no

00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.400
clue that there was going to be a war in Korea

00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.799
coming in the future. We were taken completely

00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:08.000
by surprise by that war, in fact. Well, and it

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:11.460
might have been, this is always one of these

00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:15.360
like maybes, Acheson, who was Marshall's successor,

00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:17.360
Secretary of State, basically. Dean Acheson?

00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:23.079
Dean Acheson, yes. And Dean Acheson... gave a

00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:26.980
presentation a couple of weeks before the Korean

00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:30.500
War, and he basically illustrated areas that

00:34:30.500 --> 00:34:33.519
were of importance to the United States in Asia.

00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.139
Guess who he forgot to include? South Korea.

00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:40.920
And so some people have said that maybe this

00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.320
was the thing that informed Stalin's opinion.

00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:45.980
Well, if they're not going to mention it, then

00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:49.920
it must not be important. So let's have a war

00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.309
over there. But we'll get into it. The point

00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:54.969
I'm just trying to make is that it's not as if

00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:57.670
we were prioritizing South Korea because we knew

00:34:57.670 --> 00:34:59.630
the war was coming and we were going to fight

00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:01.769
a war there. So that made it the priority. That's

00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:04.269
not why we prioritized Korea in our thinking,

00:35:04.349 --> 00:35:06.389
because we had no clue there was going to be

00:35:06.389 --> 00:35:08.030
a war there. We were taken totally by surprise.

00:35:08.130 --> 00:35:11.929
So our emphasis on Korea and Japan isn't because

00:35:11.929 --> 00:35:14.920
of a coming war in Korea. We did not have that

00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:17.579
concept. To be honest with you, I do not know

00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:19.719
why we prioritized Korea to such a great extent.

00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.860
I know why we did Japan because we had occupied

00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:26.380
Japan and such. We had occupation forces there

00:35:26.380 --> 00:35:30.079
too. Yeah, I know we did. But I'm just saying

00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:32.960
I don't actually know why that was such a big

00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.780
priority as compared to China. Well, let's think

00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:40.420
about China though. There's some pretty basic

00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:44.440
things that along with, you know, the communists

00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:47.300
not having a government and Chiang Kai -shek

00:35:47.300 --> 00:35:51.079
having a government, in the middle of a civil

00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.159
war, it's kind of hard to like, let's rebuild

00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:59.079
the economy. It doesn't lend itself to that at

00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:04.400
all. And there was no fighting in Korea. There's

00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.440
no fighting. Until the Korean War broke out.

00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:11.960
You kind of needed to have... space to be able

00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:16.960
to make this happen when you can actually provide

00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.300
aid. So that is one factor that we need to consider

00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:25.579
when looking at why China's not getting, say,

00:36:25.699 --> 00:36:27.820
Marshall Plan aid. I mean, there was a lot of

00:36:27.820 --> 00:36:31.360
criticism within the United States Congress from

00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:34.860
partisans, people that we're going to talk about,

00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:38.519
about why Why are we prioritizing Europe here?

00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.380
Well, it's easier to prioritize Europe because

00:36:41.380 --> 00:36:43.920
there's no fighting going on in Europe. You know,

00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:46.340
you can rebuild industry that way. Well, and

00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:48.579
at the time, Europe was by far the more important.

00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:51.119
I was going to say, that makes sense with our

00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:52.940
worldview coming from the United States. Well,

00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:55.360
politically, it was far more important in our

00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:58.079
mind, and arguably that was true at that time.

00:36:59.019 --> 00:37:01.280
Economically, it was far more important. The

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.320
rise of Asia as being economically as significant

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.320
as it is today was often the future at that point.

00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.460
There were a lot of reasons why Europe was more

00:37:08.460 --> 00:37:10.699
important then for good reasons than now. And

00:37:10.699 --> 00:37:15.139
Asia was also heavily colonized. You know, this

00:37:15.139 --> 00:37:17.980
was coming, these colonial empires would be coming

00:37:17.980 --> 00:37:21.500
apart. We forget that. Yes. That is lost, actually.

00:37:21.500 --> 00:37:26.139
You know, I mean, Indochina is France, Indonesia

00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:28.019
is the Dutch. See, I didn't know that until the

00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:31.860
documentary on Vietnam War. I did not know. Yeah.

00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:35.059
I mean, all of those places and kind of one of

00:37:35.059 --> 00:37:37.800
the things that we were trying to avoid getting

00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:42.929
sucked into. was to kind of support these empires,

00:37:43.110 --> 00:37:49.150
the restoration of empire in those areas. Britain

00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:53.150
had its own imperial requirements in the area,

00:37:53.190 --> 00:37:55.469
and those are going to play a part in how they

00:37:55.469 --> 00:37:57.869
approach China as opposed to how we approach

00:37:57.869 --> 00:38:01.929
China. But those are all factors in terms of

00:38:01.929 --> 00:38:04.269
looking at why we were choosing to prioritize

00:38:04.269 --> 00:38:09.829
Europe. This doesn't mean that people, There

00:38:09.829 --> 00:38:13.650
were people in America, people coming from the

00:38:13.650 --> 00:38:16.949
Chinese missionary community, which was, I would

00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:19.889
say, still very influential, followers of kind

00:38:19.889 --> 00:38:24.369
of the pro -nationalist line. People used to

00:38:24.369 --> 00:38:27.389
compare Chiang Kai -shek in those circles with

00:38:27.389 --> 00:38:31.710
Moses and Lincoln. Like Chiang Kai -shek is the

00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:34.750
most critical person in 2 ,000 years because

00:38:34.750 --> 00:38:37.809
what he's going to do to China without even thinking

00:38:37.809 --> 00:38:41.489
about how viable any of these so -called plans

00:38:41.489 --> 00:38:45.610
are. And so Truman and his Secretary of State

00:38:45.610 --> 00:38:49.710
at the time, George Marshall, they were penalized

00:38:49.710 --> 00:38:53.030
in those circles for... prioritizing Europe.

00:38:53.449 --> 00:38:56.610
Before he was Secretary of State, Truman sent

00:38:56.610 --> 00:39:00.510
Marshall in late 1945. Truman, incidentally,

00:39:00.530 --> 00:39:03.389
probably had more respect for Marshall than any

00:39:03.389 --> 00:39:06.309
human being on the planet. He always referred

00:39:06.309 --> 00:39:08.130
to him as General Marshall, even though he's

00:39:08.130 --> 00:39:11.550
his superior. Roosevelt would refer to Marshall

00:39:11.550 --> 00:39:14.510
as George. So there's a difference between the

00:39:14.510 --> 00:39:17.150
two in terms of respect. And it kind of irked

00:39:17.150 --> 00:39:20.090
Marshall, because I think only Mrs. Marshall

00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:23.199
called him George. Hardly anybody did. Yeah.

00:39:23.619 --> 00:39:26.000
Joseph Stilwell could call him George. Yes, they

00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:28.019
were friends. But General Patton, General Omar

00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:31.320
Bradley. No. They called him sir. Yes. Or general.

00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:33.619
Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. Hardly anybody got to call

00:39:33.619 --> 00:39:36.429
him George. Yes, but. But this was something

00:39:36.429 --> 00:39:39.809
that I think Roosevelt was aware of and he would

00:39:39.809 --> 00:39:43.610
do. He would actually elongate George, something

00:39:43.610 --> 00:39:45.670
like that. Well, Truman had also been an artillery

00:39:45.670 --> 00:39:47.929
officer back in World War I. So there's probably

00:39:47.929 --> 00:39:51.449
that residual military respect for a senior officer

00:39:51.449 --> 00:39:54.269
thing going on too. Marshall was someone who

00:39:54.269 --> 00:39:57.989
could walk into a room and be the center of attention

00:39:57.989 --> 00:40:00.349
even without saying anything. He had that kind

00:40:00.349 --> 00:40:03.760
of presence. And let's just say. Roosevelt did

00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:06.119
not respond to that, and Truman definitely did.

00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:10.079
But sending him in late 1945 to try and effect

00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:12.639
some sort of compromise between Chiang Kai -shek's

00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.239
nationalist and Mao's communist, that kind of

00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.579
showed a certain degree of importance that he's

00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:34.880
putting to the case here. Thank you. Predictably,

00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:39.000
when Marshall tried to make these kind of compromises

00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.820
to kind of resolve the Civil War, Chang sabotaged

00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:45.000
them, and the communists were kind of just playing

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.119
him. They said, yeah, yeah, yeah, we like the

00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:50.579
idea of peace in our time and everything like

00:40:50.579 --> 00:40:52.599
that, but, you know, as soon as you leave, we'll

00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:56.800
take care of Chang. Sincerity in these discussions,

00:40:57.019 --> 00:40:59.820
even though people did participate on both sides,

00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:02.599
just... It wasn't there. Neither side had any

00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.139
interest in the Chinese Civil War in forming

00:41:05.139 --> 00:41:08.340
this coalition government we hoped for or whatever.

00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:12.139
And you can't make a compromise when people aren't

00:41:12.139 --> 00:41:14.619
willing to do so. No. They wanted to fight it

00:41:14.619 --> 00:41:17.780
out and take over China. When Marshall came back,

00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:22.000
he became Secretary of State. And this is when

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:25.579
he institutes the famous plan to feed and rebuild

00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:30.219
Europe. The Marshall Plan. We need to say that.

00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:33.159
That is the Marshall Plan. And this is when?

00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:37.059
47 to 49 is when he's Secretary of State. I mean,

00:41:37.099 --> 00:41:39.579
he is definitely, Truman is definitely working

00:41:39.579 --> 00:41:43.519
him pretty hard. chief of the army during World

00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:47.139
War II. And then immediately thereafter, he goes

00:41:47.139 --> 00:41:50.000
off on this mission to China, which is ultimately

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.340
unsuccessful, but probably very frustrating.

00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:56.460
And then he becomes secretary of state as the

00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:00.659
basic architecture of the Cold War era is being

00:42:00.659 --> 00:42:03.519
set up. And he's very much part of that. You

00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:04.980
know, when you think about the events that took

00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:10.760
place in 47 to 49, he leaves right after Truman's

00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:14.159
inauguration. Just to show that he's not resigning

00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.639
over a fit of pique or anything like that. He's

00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:19.159
always the good soldier here. This is Truman's

00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:21.519
inauguration after he was elected. In 48. In

00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:25.780
48. So January 49 was that inauguration as well

00:42:25.780 --> 00:42:28.480
you're talking about. So he gets succeeded by

00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:34.119
Dean Acheson. And Truman and Marshall had kind

00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:38.599
of like – Marshall seriously – questioned any

00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:40.659
sort of strategic interests that the United States

00:42:40.659 --> 00:42:44.239
had with regard to China. He didn't really see

00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.539
it as being that important to our overall scheme

00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:49.820
of things. And you know, it's interesting, Marshall,

00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.480
because I was saying I didn't really know why

00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.980
we would prioritize Korea so much over, as opposed

00:42:54.980 --> 00:42:57.880
to China. Yeah. I went ahead and asked the internet

00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.559
to tell me. And so take that for what it's worth.

00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:03.880
But according to the AI answer that I just got

00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:07.380
here, we were focused on the competition, the

00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:09.760
Cold War competition, the growing Cold War competition

00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:13.099
with the Soviet Union. So we were looking for

00:43:13.099 --> 00:43:16.800
direct territorial threats and political threats

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:20.159
that the Soviet Union itself posed. So in Korea,

00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:22.300
you had the Soviet Union occupying north of the

00:43:22.300 --> 00:43:25.019
38th parallel, like we discussed, and us south

00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:28.559
of the 38th parallel. That's a direct... Territorial

00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:31.239
threat. Territorial threat confrontation. And

00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:35.500
also, as has been the case for hundreds of years,

00:43:35.780 --> 00:43:42.639
Korea is seen as a strategic necessity for Japan

00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:44.960
to control. The Japanese always thought so, because

00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:48.039
if a hostile power controlled Korea... they're

00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:49.980
very close to japan then it's easy to hop across

00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:52.340
and invade japan there have been historic events

00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:55.179
where that has been the launching point and so

00:43:55.179 --> 00:43:57.000
japan was always very interested in it well anyway

00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:58.880
you know after we defeated japan in world war

00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:02.539
ii we actually had the same concerns on japan's

00:44:02.539 --> 00:44:05.019
behalf yes and so because of that we wanted to

00:44:05.019 --> 00:44:07.739
make sure that south korea was a bulwark against

00:44:07.739 --> 00:44:12.800
soviet communist aggression or whatever expansion

00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:17.880
expansion but partly not just for korea's in

00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:19.980
the defense of Japan from any kind of communist

00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:23.420
influence. So it's kind of interesting. Our focus,

00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:25.440
I guess what I'm trying to get to here is it

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:28.480
sounds like our focus was on Japan and Korea

00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.619
because we controlled Japan at that point. It

00:44:31.619 --> 00:44:34.019
was under our occupation until 1952 by the United

00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:37.139
States. And we wanted Korea to be safe, not only

00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:38.940
just to confront the Soviets, but to protect

00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:41.400
Japan because it was all about us bilaterally

00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:44.579
versus the Soviets. China was a different animal,

00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:47.599
it looks like, because... The Soviet influence

00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:51.360
there was, what's the right word, limited, not

00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:53.920
obvious. I'm not sure what word I should use.

00:44:54.139 --> 00:44:57.019
Well, I'm not, I don't say that it, I would say

00:44:57.019 --> 00:44:59.360
that it's probably not as profound as it is elsewhere.

00:44:59.500 --> 00:45:01.800
Less direct in a way. It's less direct and you're

00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:03.659
not dealing with the same situation as you are

00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:05.900
in Eastern Europe at the same time. Right, absolutely

00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:09.019
different in that regard. I mean, it's sort of

00:45:09.019 --> 00:45:11.320
curious to me, though, because we were, like

00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:13.190
we talked about. a few minutes ago, right? We

00:45:13.190 --> 00:45:15.250
were locked in this idea of, you know, monolithic

00:45:15.250 --> 00:45:19.550
communism had to be opposed everywhere it rose,

00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:21.670
right? See, that's what I grew up thinking. Right?

00:45:21.750 --> 00:45:23.550
That's what I was taught. It was all one thing.

00:45:23.710 --> 00:45:26.610
Yeah. Which it wasn't, but we thought so at the

00:45:26.610 --> 00:45:28.570
time, and that's what drove our thinking. But

00:45:28.570 --> 00:45:32.559
we knew about Tito in Yugoslavia. He had broken

00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:35.000
away from the Soviets right after World War II.

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.619
He was very public about this, too. Very public

00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:40.019
about it. And then, you know, Truman had hopes

00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:42.260
that China would go the same way. So both of

00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:44.519
those things kind of militated against this idea

00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:48.679
of monolithic communism. That being said, we

00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:51.500
were nonetheless focused on kind of a monolithic

00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:54.780
communism under Soviet control, at least. So

00:45:54.780 --> 00:45:56.340
wherever there was Soviet control of things,

00:45:56.619 --> 00:46:00.219
that was our emphasis. And that wasn't the case.

00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:04.400
in China. Even though we thought in terms of

00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.400
monolithic communism, we also did not think that

00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:09.400
was the case in China. Not yet. Not yet. Not

00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:11.500
yet. All right. This is going to change. Now,

00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:16.139
just as Tito has an incentive, and we'll get

00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:21.440
into this, to break away from Stalin, Mao actually

00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:25.400
has an incentive to stick with Stalin. Close

00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:28.659
the up to him. Yeah. He does not like Stalin,

00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:33.480
as we'll see. You know, Mao believes that, you

00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:38.179
know, he is accomplished as much, but he needs

00:46:38.179 --> 00:46:41.780
to defer to Stalin. Stalin is, you know, the

00:46:41.780 --> 00:46:45.000
Uncle Joe of the communist world here. He is

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:48.820
the Red Emperor. The Grand Patriarch of communism,

00:46:49.139 --> 00:46:51.460
yeah. You know, he was there with Lenin, you

00:46:51.460 --> 00:46:56.039
know, and part of the beginnings of European

00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:59.440
Marxism and world Marxism. So he's going to have

00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:02.989
to. stick with Stalin, even though it's not necessarily

00:47:02.989 --> 00:47:05.769
always the best situation. And Stalin also killed

00:47:05.769 --> 00:47:08.949
all his rivals. So that helps Stalin too, I guess,

00:47:09.070 --> 00:47:12.090
in terms of being in charge. Yes. Okay. As far

00:47:12.090 --> 00:47:15.010
as, let's turn our attentions to, we know that

00:47:15.010 --> 00:47:17.969
Truman didn't like Stalin. He also did not like

00:47:17.969 --> 00:47:20.190
Chiang Kai -shek all that much because this was

00:47:20.190 --> 00:47:24.489
just, he was well and truly, he had his full.

00:47:25.019 --> 00:47:27.920
a spill of them. He got sick and tired of the

00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:31.739
constant, unrelenting pleas for aid and equipment,

00:47:31.940 --> 00:47:35.460
which persisted on even after whenever they gave

00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:38.340
them something, odds were they would lose it

00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:41.780
to the communists. And where that money went

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:44.719
to, God only knew. I mean, Chiang himself was

00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:48.760
not personally corrupt. His in -laws most definitely

00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:51.460
were. and we'll see what they did with some of

00:47:51.460 --> 00:47:54.480
this money later on. And the communists were

00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.079
heavily equipped by U .S. aid that they captured

00:47:58.079 --> 00:47:59.800
from the nationalists. Yes. That was a significant

00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.579
part of their victory, actually. And so it's

00:48:01.579 --> 00:48:04.400
sort of like, why are we giving you this aid

00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:06.219
when it's just going to— You're just going to

00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:10.159
lose it to the communists. And so in terms of

00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:14.800
Truman's looking at how effective the nationalists

00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:18.960
were, this was a mark in their disfavor. as far

00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:36.440
as he was concerned. Chang had acquired a nickname,

00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:40.019
and this was Cash My Check. Chung Kai Shek, Cash

00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:43.960
My Check. Yes. I get it. And Madam Chang Kai

00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:46.880
Shek was Madam Cash My Check. Yes. And then,

00:48:47.789 --> 00:48:50.989
I actually thought that this was a quote from

00:48:50.989 --> 00:48:53.050
Truman, but it actually was from Stilwell, but

00:48:53.050 --> 00:48:55.210
I think it's consistent with what Truman would

00:48:55.210 --> 00:48:58.469
have believed. General Stilwell said that Chiang

00:48:58.469 --> 00:49:00.210
Kai -shek couldn't find his way out of a Hong

00:49:00.210 --> 00:49:03.860
Kong whorehouse. It sounds like Vinegar Joe would

00:49:03.860 --> 00:49:05.199
say that. It sounds like Truman. I don't know

00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:06.579
that he did. It sounds like Truman would say

00:49:06.579 --> 00:49:08.179
that too. Yeah, it sounds like Truman would say.

00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.260
Could have been either one. I seem to think that

00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:13.920
they actually lifted that and gave it to Truman

00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:17.760
in the play Give Him Hell, Harry, which I saw

00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:23.199
in like 1970s. Let me ask you, Marshall, if I

00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:27.840
can interject here. We talked about previous

00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.500
episodes here. We talked about Stilwell. having

00:49:30.500 --> 00:49:32.360
an acrimonious relationship, to say the least,

00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:35.139
with Chiang Kai -shek. We also talked about Claire

00:49:35.139 --> 00:49:38.320
Chennault having a very warm relationship with

00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:41.559
Chiang Kai -shek. Stillwell died in October of

00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:44.019
46, so he wasn't around for most of this, but

00:49:44.019 --> 00:49:48.239
Chennault lived well on after that. Did Chennault

00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:49.940
play a role in this discussion with Chiang Kai

00:49:49.940 --> 00:49:52.079
-shek, or was he sidelined after he left the

00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.340
14th Air Force in China? As things are falling

00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:57.659
apart, Because he and Chiang Kai -shek had very

00:49:57.659 --> 00:50:01.179
warm relations and he was a big – I mean is it

00:50:01.179 --> 00:50:03.199
fair to say he was a big advocate of Chung? Yes.

00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:06.000
And air power. Well, and also air power. Yeah,

00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:10.599
yeah. He comes into the discussion as one of

00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:16.139
the pro -Chiang Kai -shek. Even after he had

00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:18.000
left China? Even after he had left China. Even

00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:21.460
during the Civil War? Yes. Okay. So what happens

00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:25.460
as things are falling apart in China, Madam Chiang

00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:28.900
Kai -shek, who comes here, she speaks English

00:50:28.900 --> 00:50:31.840
with a southern accent because she learned English

00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:38.010
at Wesley University down in Georgia. And she

00:50:38.010 --> 00:50:39.989
would often – she'd often play up this whole

00:50:39.989 --> 00:50:43.590
southern thing even though she was about as southern

00:50:43.590 --> 00:50:48.590
as Kung Pao chicken. But she would come in and

00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:52.449
she had her whole coterie of people. She installed

00:50:52.449 --> 00:50:59.909
herself over at her brother -in -law's house

00:50:59.909 --> 00:51:03.489
in Riverdale, New York. Who was her brother -in

00:51:03.489 --> 00:51:07.369
-law? Her brother -in -law was the – president

00:51:07.369 --> 00:51:11.630
of the Bank of China, which had offices in China

00:51:11.630 --> 00:51:14.989
and in New York. And one wonders where that money

00:51:14.989 --> 00:51:19.250
to capitalize that bank came from. Probably we

00:51:19.250 --> 00:51:21.489
were getting some of this money back in the form

00:51:21.489 --> 00:51:25.449
of whatever loans or financial endeavors the

00:51:25.449 --> 00:51:28.269
Bank of China, based in New York City, was engaged

00:51:28.269 --> 00:51:34.469
in. So she basically set up a kind of court in

00:51:34.469 --> 00:51:39.139
exile there. to try and build support, one of

00:51:39.139 --> 00:51:42.519
the people that she brought in was Claire Chenault.

00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:46.699
And they got along famously and very good. You

00:51:46.699 --> 00:51:49.400
know, he had a lot of respect for her and vice

00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:52.360
versa. Although he still continued to propose

00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:56.820
highly impractical solutions to the Chinese Civil

00:51:56.820 --> 00:52:00.420
War. He was planning on getting a few planes

00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:03.840
together and basically using that to utterly

00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:07.889
destroy the ground forces of the communists,

00:52:07.889 --> 00:52:11.449
and not really thinking about things like logistics.

00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:14.559
It's just we have these planes. They're there.

00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:16.860
They're able to self -support somehow or the

00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:19.059
other. And all I've got to do is get my guys

00:52:19.059 --> 00:52:21.099
up in the air and we can go and cream the Chinese

00:52:21.099 --> 00:52:24.420
communist. The other thing is airplanes can't

00:52:24.420 --> 00:52:28.000
occupy territory. No, they can't. Airplanes are

00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:29.659
very powerful things and they're good to have

00:52:29.659 --> 00:52:31.480
on your side, but they can't do it all on their

00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:33.340
own. And that's been true over and over and over

00:52:33.340 --> 00:52:36.760
again in history. And look, that's exactly what

00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:39.289
Chenault said in... During the World War II,

00:52:39.309 --> 00:52:40.550
we talked about this during the World War II

00:52:40.550 --> 00:52:43.869
episodes. You know, he said that give him a few

00:52:43.869 --> 00:52:45.829
planes and he'll beat the Japanese and you don't

00:52:45.829 --> 00:52:49.110
need anything else. It wasn't true, but he's

00:52:49.110 --> 00:52:50.590
still saying this about fighting the communists

00:52:50.590 --> 00:52:52.730
in China. Well, you see, this is very short -sighted,

00:52:52.730 --> 00:52:54.710
and I would say this is something that we see

00:52:54.710 --> 00:52:59.190
in this instance and also in other instances

00:52:59.190 --> 00:53:03.130
of U .S. foreign policy, which I put forth that

00:53:03.130 --> 00:53:05.530
this whole experience with China provides us

00:53:05.530 --> 00:53:08.440
with. A lot of places you don't want to go when

00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:10.900
you're considering foreign policy and military

00:53:10.900 --> 00:53:13.960
policy operations overseas. Chennault wasn't

00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:15.659
thinking in terms of nuclear warfare against

00:53:15.659 --> 00:53:17.480
China, was he? That doesn't come in. Doesn't

00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:19.719
come in, right. Actually, you know what? You

00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:21.139
know who was thinking about nuclear warfare?

00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:23.960
Stalin was. Stalin was basically telling Mao,

00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:26.900
hey. what's going to happen is the U .S. is going

00:53:26.900 --> 00:53:28.900
to come in and they're going to take you out

00:53:28.900 --> 00:53:31.780
with nuclear weapons. That was not a plan at

00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:34.860
all, but it was a way of kind of Stalin telling

00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:37.659
Mao that, you know, you've only got one friend

00:53:37.659 --> 00:53:40.719
in the world and that's me. And if you wait for

00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:42.179
the Americans, they're going to come in and they're

00:53:42.179 --> 00:53:44.300
just going to nuke you. Now, I'm just going to

00:53:44.300 --> 00:53:47.340
say, if the United States wanted to nuke the

00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:51.199
Chinese, they could have done that very easily.

00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:56.380
It wasn't a priority. That's the thing. The Russians,

00:53:56.519 --> 00:53:58.840
I don't think, believed it was a priority, but

00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:00.679
they felt it was a useful bit of propaganda.

00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:03.219
And, of course, Mao's going to think the whole

00:54:03.219 --> 00:54:05.079
world revolves around China because that's that

00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:08.079
Middle Kingdom mentality that you can never get

00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:10.960
away from when you're dealing with the Chinese

00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:13.119
themselves. At the time, we had the monopoly

00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.239
in the world on nuclear weapons. For a little

00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:17.139
bit. For a little bit. The Soviet bomb didn't

00:54:17.139 --> 00:54:21.219
go off until September. what year 1949 right

00:54:21.219 --> 00:54:24.780
yeah so there was a window where no one could

00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:26.820
retaliate against us if we used if we use nuclear

00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:28.619
weapons but there's always the question of to

00:54:28.619 --> 00:54:30.380
what point you know you nuke a bunch of stuff

00:54:30.380 --> 00:54:32.480
and then what you know did you win well you see

00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:35.039
even if you go in and you you know let's go back

00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:37.400
to Claire Chenault here yeah you go in and you

00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.519
do this okay so say I've eliminated some military

00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:44.679
forces What then? How do you control China? How

00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:47.400
do you control China? I mean, you need things

00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:50.280
like land reform and you need things like a government

00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:53.019
that's in there that's going to be able to be

00:54:53.019 --> 00:54:54.880
appealing to the people who live there within

00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:58.239
the territory. You cannot air power your way

00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:01.699
to doing this. That's just never going to happen

00:55:01.699 --> 00:55:05.460
here. Well, we made our point on that. But I

00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:06.960
mean, so what was Chenault's influence then over

00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:10.739
what happened? Well, he had these plans. They

00:55:10.739 --> 00:55:13.940
never actually came off the ground, but he was

00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:19.199
certainly involved with Madame Chiang Kai -shek.

00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:22.659
Was he able – I guess what I'm trying to get

00:55:22.659 --> 00:55:26.920
at is were he and then he and his – through his

00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:30.400
alliance with Madame Chung, were they able to

00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:32.800
steer us in a certain direction? They tried to.

00:55:32.860 --> 00:55:35.760
They tried to. But they didn't. How successful

00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:40.329
were they? They were totally unsuccessful. That's

00:55:40.329 --> 00:55:43.309
it for this episode of the United States of Amnesia.

00:55:43.570 --> 00:55:46.010
Thank you for listening. We hope you learned

00:55:46.010 --> 00:55:48.230
something and we hope you discovered new ways

00:55:48.230 --> 00:55:50.710
of looking at things you had already heard or

00:55:50.710 --> 00:55:53.389
thought about or perhaps hadn't heard about.

00:55:53.710 --> 00:55:56.449
If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we made you

00:55:56.449 --> 00:56:00.090
mad, that's okay too. Either way, email us at

00:56:00.090 --> 00:56:04.170
usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know what

00:56:04.170 --> 00:56:06.769
you think. Also, let us know about anything you

00:56:06.769 --> 00:56:09.039
think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to know

00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:12.300
about that too. And of course, please like and

00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:14.219
subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:17.639
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:24.480
.usofamnesia .com for Marshall, Mike, and myself.

00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:26.039
Till next time.