Episode 103: America First - Part 3

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I'm going to tempt this in a bad Swedish accent.

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It is impossible, according to the press, to

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be a true American unless you are pro -British.

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If you are America first, last, for all time,

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and solely for America, for the masses, then

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you are classified as pro -German. This is a

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quotation from the father of Charles Lindbergh,

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the aviator, who was a congressman during World

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War I and also an opponent of becoming involved

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in the war. Though we do not know this for certain,

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doubtless this sentiment informed Lindbergh's

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options and opinions in the lead up to World

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War II. And if anything, this is going to be

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probably closer to contemporary American notions

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of the term of what it is to not just be much

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of a case for America first, but for America

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alone. And you're right, Marshall. That was a

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terrible Swedish accent. Hopefully we can get

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into some of the depths of this, but it is important

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to kind of keep in mind that the sort of people

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in the Midwest are going to play a bigger role

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in this portion concerning the latest incarnation

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of America first. Welcome to the United States

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of Amnesia. You found us. Thank you. We are the

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podcast that reminds us of what we have forgotten.

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It is often said that history repeats itself.

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Mark Twain allegedly said that history doesn't

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repeat itself, but it rhymes. Ecclesiastes probably

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said it best in chapter one, verse nine, quote,

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everything that has been will be again everything

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that has been done will be done again there is

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nothing new under the sun close quote but over

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time many topics have become clouded by biases

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and oversimplifications or have become mythologized

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and now are misunderstood misunderstanding means

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learning the wrong lessons from history or even

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learning nothing at all And that can leave us

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poorly prepared for history's next rhyme. Your

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hosts for this podcast are Marshall Newman, Mike

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Mendenhall and myself, Blake Henke. In this podcast,

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we will cover topics of history, politics and

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religion, how they interact and how they relate

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to modern day events and themes. We will try

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to cut through biases, oversimplifications and

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myths to learn better lessons from the past.

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and to see what they can tell us about the present

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and maybe even the future. This third episode

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will cover America First ideology from 1927 to

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the mid 1930s. So to pick up where we left off

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in the previous episode, Lindbergh had flown

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the Atlantic from New York City to Paris and

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become, in the process, the most famous person

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on the planet. He will later become very influential

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in the America First movement in the lead up

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to World War II. Organizations like the Klan

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and even the pro - pro -Italian fascist organizations

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were on the ascension, including the occasion

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of one Fred Trump being arrested at a riot that

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broke out in Queens in support of these two movements.

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Although we take the concept of the melting pot

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for granted, there were significant pockets of

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resistance to this notion, particularly in the

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1920s. And this wasn't just limited to a region

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or state, but this was a phenomenon that was

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nationwide. This was demonstrated fully in 1928

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during the election that pitted Herbert Hoover

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against Al Smith. Even to name such a Smith,

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which you would think would be very American,

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there were large portions of the country that

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did not think he was American enough to be present.

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Smith was Catholic, which meant that he was unacceptable

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to large numbers of Protestant voters. around

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the country. He was also opposed to prohibition,

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which was supported by numerous nativists as

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a means of curtailing the unsavory habits of

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immigrants, many of whom used alcohol as a critical

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element in community socialization. Smith was

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also from New York City, the sink of corruption.

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Smith was a Catholic, which meant he was unacceptable

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to large numbers of Protestant voters around

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the country. He was also opposed to prohibition,

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which was also supported by numerous nativists

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as a means of curtailing the unsavory habits

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of immigrants, many of whom had alcohol as a

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critical element of community socialization.

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Smith was also from New York City, that sink

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of corruption, and a product of working -class

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immigrant culture who relied on Tammany Hall

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to survive. His remarks on the radio, as he pronounced

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it, further alienated him from voters in the

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South and the Midwest. Herbert Hoover, by contrast,

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portrayed himself as the only Christian running

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for president. In this tip of the hat to nativism,

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Hoover was being consistent with the Republican

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Party's anti -immigrant pro -enforcement of prohibition

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in America. America first stands as adapted by

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the Republican Party in the election of 1920.

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and also the Coolidge administration's attempts

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to limit the number of immigrants arriving from

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Asia and Europe, although not from other parts

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of the Western Hemisphere. So successful was

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Hoover that he managed to crack the Solid South,

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winning Virginia, Florida, North Carolina, Kentucky,

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and Texas in the 1928 election. It's worth noting,

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to put this into context, Then in 1928, there

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were people living in those states for whom the

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Civil War was part of living memories. It was

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little more than 60 years in the past, the same

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as Vietnam is today. The Republican Party was

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the party of Lincoln and Reconstruction, and

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these were not positive takes on the matter.

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When I was a child, I heard the people summoning

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younger relatives to the deathbed of Confederate

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veterans, and made to promise never to vote for

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a Republican as a result of long memories regarding

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the Civil War. For those states to vote Republican

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and against a Democrat speaks volumes about the

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prevailing attitudes regarding Catholics, immigrants,

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and prohibition. The prevailing nativism annulled

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any pretense of ancestral loyalty. Hoover's good

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times in the White House lasted a little more

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than eight months when the stock market crash

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of 1928 ended the Roaring Twenties. The Republican

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prosperity was not nationwide and it only deepened

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long -standing problems in rural America which

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have been largely ignored by most politicians

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in the decade. Hoover's problems deepened by

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a series of bank failures which were unaddressed

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as well. The effects of the Depression were compounded

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by the introduction of the Smoot -Hawley tariff

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bill, which ensured the effects of the Great

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Depression would persist in the United States

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longer than elsewhere in the world due to problems

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created in terms of exports. And it's interesting

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to consider Smoot -Hawley in the context of a

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lot of what we've been talking about regarding

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America First. We don't want to go down a big

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rabbit hole on tariffs and you know international

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economic history and things like that But there's

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there's a way of thinking in the world that The

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world is the world economy is a finite pie right

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and and you have to Get a bigger piece of the

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pie in order to become wealthier at someone else's

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expense in liberal economic theory that came

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up later The pies is expandable So you can grow

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the pie and by growing the pie, you can grow

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everybody's pie slice. You don't have to necessarily,

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you don't have to necessarily take something

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away at the expense of someone else. Um, so in

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that, in that context, here comes Smoot and Holly

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with, with their tariffs and that immediately

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deepens the depression. It was a, it turned out

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to be a terrible idea. It actually hurt the economy.

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The, uh, rural areas had, as we talked about

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previously, had, had been in a depression of

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their own since the twenties. You could make

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an argument that it made some sense to do something

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to help the farmers by maybe restricting imports

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of agricultural products, perhaps. But the way

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they did it was wrong because it actually made

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the farmers worse off. It made everybody worse

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off. Made everybody worse off, including the

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farmers. But it's interesting this quote by Smoot.

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He died in 1941. But before he died, he wrote

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his memoirs. And he has a quote where he says

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that defending his tariff that he and Holly Impose

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right he said the world is paying for its ruthless

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destruction of life and property in the world

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war meaning world war one. And for its failure

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to adjust purchasing power to productive capacity

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during the industrial revolution of the decade

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following the war. So this fits in with what

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we talked about previously but america first

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you know if there's an idea in there that the

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european world europeans had. Done their dirty

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deeds as they always did and and had dragged

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us into a terrible war terribly destructive war

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That was their fault and we were somehow better

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than that right that they they had to pay for

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what they had done in During World War one because

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we over here in the new world were something

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better and superior to that this other thing

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to where he talks about The world had refused

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had failed to adjust its purchasing power to

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productive capacity Is gobbledygook I don't fully

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understand it sounds to me like he's saying that.

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You shouldn't export. You shouldn't manufacture

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more. Then you can. Import on your balance of

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payments in terms of value right if you're manufacturing

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too much and exporting too much you shouldn't

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do that you should. You should somehow balance

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how much you're paying other people with how

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much you're taking in right. I mean international

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economy doesn't really work that way. So what

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is he getting at and and and even mercantilism,

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you know, this is kind of like, you know with

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mercantilism This is the kind of approach that

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you take as well in terms of balance of payments

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and things like that It does sound like economic

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gobbledygook. Yeah, you're making you're making

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too much money compared to how much you produce

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It's kind of what that sounds like and I don't

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know what that means But anyway, I I could I

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could think that it might have something to do

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because this was an obsession that people had

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was over World War I debts that were owed to

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the United States. And this was like an obsession

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during the 30s. You know, this was this was kind

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of like that, you know, if you if you want to

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draw contemporary parallels, it's like Trump

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going after NATO member states and saying you're

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not paying your fair share. So this is this is

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kind of consistent with that. There is also as

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we touched on last time the notion that Protective

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tariffs were good for American industry and that

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this would kind of get us out of the depression

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The problem was if you look at this from kind

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of like almost a monetarist position You're not

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you're basically trying to to get more out of

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a shrinking pie And you're not really coming

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up with a way to grow the pie or to increase

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profits. And the things that help run your economy,

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such as banks and other financial institutions,

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those things are disappearing. So you're actually

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seeing a tightening of credit, which doesn't

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really get addressed by putting on higher levels

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of protection. And this was not necessarily in

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other countries Britain came out of the depression

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a lot faster than we did. France did as well

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because they weren't trying to basically play

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beggar my neighbor here with extreme tariffs.

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Tariffs went up on US goods in response to Smoot

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-Hawley and therefore we could not increase economically

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our abilities here. And this is always the thing

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with tariffs. I'm a huge proponent of free trade.

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Because you get the best results from this it

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may not always be be happy, but it's like you

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do get the best end results for the consumer

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and You do also have opportunities for To be

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able to export your goods overseas that you otherwise

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wouldn't have here and what I find interesting

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and again in the America first context is ironically

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this this impulse among America firsters to Look

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at the world in terms of income and outgo, you

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know dollars and cents in a very narrow narrow

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way Leads to negative effects, you know, it's

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it Because they're so focused on putting themselves

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first they stop to think of how Thinking about

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someone else's interest could also benefit you

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in the long run, right? You make money. I make

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money. We're both wealthier. We can buy things

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from each other, right? They're so focused on

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just saying we need to make more money than other

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people because we come first That they're missing

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that they're missing that broader issue there

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and it applies to other things outside of tariffs

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and economics and everything else it's part of

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the mentality of the sense of purity. That exists

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over here. It's kind of that approach, their

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view of America as this pure, unsullied place.

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We don't need nasty foreign goods here. We don't

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need nasty foreigners. We don't need to work

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with nasty foreigners who are just going to exercise

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their corrupting influence upon us. The thing

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is, tariffs really, in my mind, and I'd love

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to hear from our listeners about their opinions

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on this, They work well if you're starting up

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industry, if you're moving from an agricultural

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to an industrialized state, sure, it gives you,

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it buys you some time to kind of set up your

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own national industries to be able to be competitive.

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But at a certain point, you kind of got to take

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the training wheels off and function in the world

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economy. And this is kind of what mature economies,

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mature industrial economies do when this happens.

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And coming up with these kind of protectionist

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regimes, certainly something as broad as Smoot

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-Hawley, it does not help advance your economy.

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And again, you know, anybody who is complaining

00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:55.539
about how expensive the New Deal was, well, guess

00:15:55.539 --> 00:15:58.639
what, guys? You people who generally supported

00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:00.919
Smoot -Hawley, opposed the New Deal, you brought

00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.440
this on yourself because you deepened artificially

00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:21.879
the impact of the Great Depression. But you see,

00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.919
when you look at Smoot's quote there, right?

00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.460
The world is paying for its ruthless destruction.

00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:31.159
Yes. And when you think about that, American

00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:34.659
consumers and companies are paying, not the world.

00:16:34.779 --> 00:16:37.559
Yes. You know, your own people pay tariffs. The

00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:39.500
world doesn't pay tariffs. Yes. We're right back

00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:41.980
to that confusion now. Yeah, like who pays for

00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:43.399
the tariffs? Well, here we are back to, well,

00:16:43.419 --> 00:16:45.340
you know, foreigners are paying tariffs. Foreigners

00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:47.679
don't pay tariffs. Foreigners do not pay tariffs.

00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.740
The world was not paying for its ruthless destruction.

00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:54.080
Our consumers, our companies were paying for,

00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:55.620
I don't know, for Europe's ruthless destruction

00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:57.340
of the world or whatever. It doesn't make sense,

00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:00.440
right? And in turn. There's the mentality again.

00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.519
Higher prices. higher potentially higher prices

00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.140
because there's less competition at a time when

00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:11.359
credit and and money is the money supply is seizing

00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:16.380
up because banks are failing and people are skittish

00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:21.160
about the world economy so let's interject one

00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:25.039
quick thing the uh stock market crash 1929 yes

00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:29.220
October 20 you said 28 sorry just but just stitching

00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:32.470
two things together In the aftermath of that

00:17:32.470 --> 00:17:35.490
in the beginning of the Great Depression, as

00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:38.750
was similar to the panic of 1873, the government

00:17:38.750 --> 00:17:43.410
was not bailing any banks out. It wasn't, and

00:17:43.410 --> 00:17:46.349
there were no, nobody wanted to put any restrictions

00:17:46.349 --> 00:17:51.009
on the banks either, you know, which is, which

00:17:51.009 --> 00:17:55.450
is interesting because once we did pass Glass

00:17:55.450 --> 00:17:59.329
-Steagall under Roosevelt, We did not have we

00:17:59.329 --> 00:18:02.029
kind of broke this cycle this twenty year cycle

00:18:02.029 --> 00:18:05.809
that happened every twenty years. We would have

00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:07.990
an economic meltdown in this country beginning

00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:11.029
in nineteen thirty seven i mean it's not exactly

00:18:11.029 --> 00:18:13.670
twenty years but it kind of is around that twenty

00:18:13.670 --> 00:18:16.450
nineteen you know we could do we could we might

00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:21.869
do a program on this at some point. But. There

00:18:21.869 --> 00:18:24.029
was no effort made to do anything about this.

00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:25.970
Hoover created something called the Reconstruction

00:18:25.970 --> 00:18:28.369
Finance Company, which was supposed to provide

00:18:28.369 --> 00:18:31.650
loans to businesses as a way of dealing with

00:18:31.650 --> 00:18:34.450
a credit crunch, but it wasn't nearly enough

00:18:34.450 --> 00:18:36.809
because you've still got people whose businesses

00:18:36.809 --> 00:18:40.589
have ceased to exist. What do you do about them?

00:18:41.289 --> 00:18:44.309
You know, if you're veterans, if they're veterans,

00:18:44.589 --> 00:18:49.869
They get shot by Douglas MacArthur and his troops.

00:18:51.490 --> 00:18:56.789
There is no approach to actually address the

00:18:56.789 --> 00:18:59.710
consequences of the Great Depression, the consequences

00:18:59.710 --> 00:19:05.849
of this financial meltdown that occur. You described

00:19:05.849 --> 00:19:10.990
it in the first episode after the panic of 1873

00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:13.609
as a laissez -faire government approach, which

00:19:13.609 --> 00:19:17.190
it was again. Yes. Well, and I think, again,

00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:19.789
the context here is important, right? Since the

00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:22.529
New Deal, Americans have taken for granted, until

00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:25.789
recently, that the government does a lot of things

00:19:25.789 --> 00:19:28.109
to manage the economy, to look out for the welfare

00:19:28.109 --> 00:19:29.789
of people, et cetera, et cetera, all those kind

00:19:29.789 --> 00:19:31.910
of things that we've gotten used to the government

00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:36.039
doing. But before FDR came into office, That

00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:38.980
was not considered in the United States. It was

00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:41.259
not considered the role of the government to

00:19:41.259 --> 00:19:44.140
help you to look out for you Until the New Deal

00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:47.640
you could starve to death in the street Taking

00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.680
care of you is up to your family your church,

00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:51.819
you know charities there was no government program

00:19:51.819 --> 00:19:54.799
to look after you at all and Marshall alluded

00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.880
to the bonus army or coming to Washington which

00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:58.539
yeah I don't know if we're gonna get into later

00:19:58.539 --> 00:20:01.839
or not. But you know that we did, you know Famously

00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:03.940
after World War II, right, we had the GI Bill

00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:05.839
and everything. You get taken care of for education

00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:07.759
and things like that, right, for having served

00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.359
your country. We did nothing for World War I

00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:15.259
veterans. They were due a bonus in 1948, because

00:20:15.259 --> 00:20:16.960
it was like 30 years after the war. Yes, 30 years

00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:19.000
after. When the Depression came along, they said,

00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:20.420
well, you know, we kind of need the money now.

00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.119
We can't wait till 1948. They went and they camped

00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:25.319
out in Washington and Douglas MacArthur led the

00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.180
army in there and shot at them and burned down

00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:29.539
their little village. Used tanks. They used tanks.

00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:33.279
Because the government's job was not to look

00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.099
out for you. That was your problem in this in

00:20:36.099 --> 00:20:40.400
this country right at at that time And all you

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.259
know all through US history up until that time.

00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:46.460
Well like this Bismarck and you know Famously

00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:49.000
right in Germany and like the 1880s had something

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.500
equivalent to a Social Security system We did

00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:55.339
not for another 50 years. Yeah. Yeah, Bismarck

00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:58.920
1880s, and then there were similar social welfare

00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:04.559
systems that the British and the French had provided.

00:21:05.539 --> 00:21:09.000
We did not, I mean... And Bismarck was no socialist.

00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:13.380
No. For those who don't know, he was a conservative

00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:16.539
European, you know, Central European... Nationalists

00:21:16.539 --> 00:21:20.279
and all that. A Junker. A Junker. Old German

00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.339
nobility, but Bismarck basically viewed this

00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:27.059
as stealing the thunder from the Socialists,

00:21:27.460 --> 00:21:29.420
who were an important party in Germany at the

00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:34.140
time. We may want to return to this theme as

00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:39.819
we move on, but the way poverty and the way illness

00:21:39.819 --> 00:21:45.059
even And this is within our lifetimes. The way

00:21:45.059 --> 00:21:48.279
poverty was viewed was that people were not leading

00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.579
the right sort of life. You were poor because

00:21:51.579 --> 00:21:54.259
you deserved it. It was not because there were

00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:58.440
factors beyond your control, which, you know,

00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:00.619
this may be the case that if we're going back

00:22:00.619 --> 00:22:04.000
to the whole yeoman farmer aspect of things.

00:22:05.569 --> 00:22:08.690
Yes, if you're not growing corn or whatever,

00:22:08.769 --> 00:22:11.109
tobacco, and you're not doing a good job, that

00:22:11.109 --> 00:22:13.490
might be because of your own lack of initiative.

00:22:13.970 --> 00:22:16.029
But when you're dealing with an industrial economy

00:22:16.029 --> 00:22:18.769
where you don't know your employer and you're

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:21.789
working for organizations that number in the

00:22:21.789 --> 00:22:23.589
thousands and then all of a sudden the gates

00:22:23.589 --> 00:22:25.470
are shuttered and you don't have work anymore,

00:22:25.849 --> 00:22:29.250
that's not really your fault. If you're doing

00:22:29.250 --> 00:22:32.470
your job, it's not like you took too many sick

00:22:32.470 --> 00:22:35.299
days and therefore the company collapsed. You

00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:37.779
know, the same is true of illness. I mean, illness

00:22:37.779 --> 00:22:40.759
was seen like that was a sign of your character

00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:44.599
and your lack of character. And that was the

00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.460
mentality that persisted up until the New Deal.

00:22:49.539 --> 00:22:52.660
We might want to move on here. So by the time,

00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:58.200
by 1932, the Republicans had so bungled addressing

00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.119
the economic problems of the Great Depression,

00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:04.269
they would lose their national dominance. a position

00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:08.210
they had had since McKinley's election in 1894

00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:12.869
until 1980. The Democrats would, one way or the

00:23:12.869 --> 00:23:18.690
other, either politically or ideologically dominate

00:23:18.690 --> 00:23:25.349
things up until Reagan's election. So what we

00:23:25.349 --> 00:23:30.960
get with Roosevelt is we get an approach to dealing

00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.220
with these problems that are being addressed

00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:36.420
here. There is a lot of emphasis on planning

00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:43.880
that's going to be not only employed, but also

00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:49.599
trumpeted by proponents of the New Deal. And

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.880
just to think about this, why is this change

00:23:53.880 --> 00:24:00.130
of heart happening? Well, there is a lot of political

00:24:00.130 --> 00:24:02.789
and economic stress that's coming about, particularly

00:24:02.789 --> 00:24:05.190
in the year 1932, which is the worst year of

00:24:05.190 --> 00:24:09.470
the Great Depression, and there is very much

00:24:09.470 --> 00:24:13.190
a fear that there is going to be a revolution.

00:24:14.549 --> 00:24:17.890
And I'm going to argue that the United States,

00:24:18.269 --> 00:24:21.309
people might wish to disagree on this. The United

00:24:21.309 --> 00:24:25.269
States historically is not a compassionate society.

00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.299
It is because people are afraid that they're

00:24:29.299 --> 00:24:32.480
gonna get their neck slit in in their houses

00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.480
by angry unemployed people That we start seeing

00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.400
attempts to mitigate things there's fear by the

00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.160
haves against an increasing number of have -nots

00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.819
who are starving to death and it's it was not

00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:52.220
much of a thought experiment to imagine say the

00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:54.660
consequences of say the French Revolution happening

00:24:54.660 --> 00:24:58.900
in the United States and generally this was communism

00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:01.460
spreading. I was going to say, or the Russian

00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:04.819
Revolution. Or the Russian Revolution. Or immediately

00:25:04.819 --> 00:25:08.319
at that time. Yes, because not the Communist

00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.460
Party had a lot of influence, but it's like there's

00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:12.579
a lot of spontaneous events that are happening,

00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:19.619
particularly over in the rural side, where people

00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:22.819
are trying to take over farms that have been

00:25:22.819 --> 00:25:25.809
repossessed by the banks. Well, and you add on

00:25:25.809 --> 00:25:28.089
top of that the Dust Bowl. Yes, the Dust Bowl,

00:25:28.289 --> 00:25:33.049
too. 1930 to 1937. The Joe Wamley. Yeah. Going.

00:25:33.049 --> 00:25:35.789
That was very real. And those people had no help

00:25:35.789 --> 00:25:38.450
from anywhere. You know, if they couldn't grow

00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:40.769
it, they starved. Yeah. It was that simple. You

00:25:40.769 --> 00:25:43.309
had to go out to California, put grandma on the

00:25:43.309 --> 00:25:46.630
truck, etc. You know, it's kind of interesting

00:25:46.630 --> 00:25:49.849
just from where we sit now that The Grapes of

00:25:49.849 --> 00:25:52.289
Wrath, which is the book about the Dust Bowl,

00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:56.289
it's still being banned. Because people find

00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:58.829
the kind of message about dealing with people

00:25:58.829 --> 00:26:01.730
who are facing these kinds of odds Disturbing

00:26:01.730 --> 00:26:05.869
to their worldview And and you know as as the

00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:10.269
as the novel shows you The yogis showing up in

00:26:10.269 --> 00:26:13.049
California were very much looked down upon. Yeah,

00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:16.130
they were very much considered the wrong element

00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:19.970
Yes to have here right for no other reason other

00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:21.769
than they were on heart. They were facing hard

00:26:21.769 --> 00:26:23.490
times They were poor. Yeah, we don't want those

00:26:23.490 --> 00:26:25.240
people around here We certainly don't want to

00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:27.279
help them. Yeah was the thinking of the time

00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:30.839
and they spoke funny Well, yeah, and then they

00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:32.140
sound different those are the kind of things

00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:34.920
that kick in right? So yeah, it's it's it's an

00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.960
interesting point to consider again in the context

00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.140
of today You know here we are again, but here

00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:44.880
we are again. Yes moving on so what we what we

00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.960
see happening as a consequence of Roosevelt and

00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.460
his his administration coming in and actually

00:26:53.500 --> 00:26:56.160
Attempting to solve the problems of the depression

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.680
in an active sort of way Meant the emergence

00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.779
of what later became known as the Roosevelt coalition

00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:09.039
now this put them in a dominant position politically

00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:12.640
But it did not mean you know, just because there

00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:17.359
are liberal elements within this that the sorts

00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.440
of anti -immigrant isolationist and racist political

00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.259
rhetoric was eliminated. In many cases these

00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:30.839
became sharper around the country as people were

00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.900
becoming concerned about the direction society

00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:39.740
was moving. One good example of this, and so

00:27:39.740 --> 00:27:43.730
back when Obama was president we had Trump going

00:27:43.730 --> 00:27:46.730
around and talking about Obama not being a citizen

00:27:46.730 --> 00:27:49.009
of the country and therefore not entitled to

00:27:49.009 --> 00:27:53.329
be president Okay, so Obama's mother came her

00:27:53.329 --> 00:27:55.710
family came over in the Mayflower Obama's family

00:27:55.710 --> 00:27:57.769
has actually been in this country much longer

00:27:57.769 --> 00:28:00.750
than Trump If anybody is not entitled to be considered

00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:02.950
a citizen, it would be Trump whose mother came

00:28:02.950 --> 00:28:09.319
over illegally from Scotland Okay so We had something

00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:12.059
comparable to this during Roosevelt's presidency

00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:16.700
now Roosevelt also Mayflower descendant Mayflower

00:28:16.700 --> 00:28:21.460
ancestry coming over So not unlike the so -called

00:28:21.460 --> 00:28:24.400
birther movement fostered by Trump during Obama's

00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:30.900
presidency A similar talking point that was advanced

00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:34.640
throughout FDR's presidency was that FDR was

00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.839
a secret Jew What the hell does that mean? Well,

00:28:39.740 --> 00:28:43.779
at the time, this makes no sense. But at the

00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:47.119
time, the way people regarded, the way people

00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.339
justified anti -Semitism, is that Jewish people

00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:54.019
could not be Americans. They were part of a tribe.

00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.759
And this tribe had its own rules, its own regulations.

00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:02.460
For example, when Felix Frankfurter, who was

00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:06.019
appointed to the Supreme Court, was going through

00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:09.119
his confirmation process. Frankfurter was Jewish,

00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:14.059
he was from Austria, and he was asked, can you

00:29:14.059 --> 00:29:18.240
be an American even though you're a Jew? And

00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.720
I mean, just imagine that this is considered,

00:29:21.099 --> 00:29:23.660
this is being asked by a member of the Senate,

00:29:24.259 --> 00:29:28.119
and this is considered to be an appropriate question

00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:34.000
to be asking. So in the case of both Obama and

00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:38.299
Roosevelt. Both charges are ridiculous. First

00:29:38.299 --> 00:29:41.359
of all, Obama's family on his mother's side goes

00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:45.559
back to Plymouth Rock. So you're about as American

00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:47.980
as you can get and Obama's family has been in

00:29:47.980 --> 00:29:51.740
this country longer than Trump's has and Obama's

00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:54.200
mother is not an illegal immigrant unlike Trump's

00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:56.380
mother. So we're going to start striking people

00:29:56.380 --> 00:29:58.799
from the citizenship ranks. We know where we

00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:04.349
can start here. Roosevelt's family is a mixture

00:30:04.349 --> 00:30:07.950
of old Dutch, meaning that they were part of

00:30:07.950 --> 00:30:12.089
New York before New York was part of the colonies,

00:30:12.150 --> 00:30:15.049
not just the United States. And then on his mother's

00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:20.269
side, the Delano family, they go back to Plymouth

00:30:20.269 --> 00:30:23.009
Rock. There are also French chuganoes who came

00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:27.450
over here in the 17th century. And Roosevelt

00:30:27.450 --> 00:30:31.549
supposedly is related to A large number of us

00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:34.650
presidents to include people like john and john

00:30:34.650 --> 00:30:39.069
quincy adams Through various intermarriages at

00:30:39.069 --> 00:30:42.269
the time bear in mind If you're respectable,

00:30:42.309 --> 00:30:44.210
there's only so many respectable people that

00:30:44.210 --> 00:30:46.730
you could marry and just so some of those people

00:30:46.730 --> 00:30:49.210
happen to be presidential a presidential timber

00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:51.730
What were he and teddy roosevelt to each other?

00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:55.940
I forget. Um They were fifth cousins. Fifth or

00:30:55.940 --> 00:30:58.480
fourth cousins because Eleanor was his fifth

00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:02.160
cousin, okay? And she was the daughter of Teddy's

00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:06.380
brother, Elliot. So, they were related to each

00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:11.380
other, but in the manner of the time, people

00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:14.059
that were related that far apart still stayed

00:31:14.059 --> 00:31:15.799
in touch with each other because nobody went

00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:19.019
anywhere. And there was a lot of intermarriage

00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:22.640
that happened too. As a result, but like European

00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:25.539
royalty. Yeah, and that is that was the model

00:31:25.539 --> 00:31:29.319
that they conducted themselves as You know these

00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:42.500
old families who lived along the Hudson But getting

00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.740
back to this stupid, you know secret jew thing

00:31:45.740 --> 00:31:47.859
that that they were saying so I mean the idea

00:31:47.859 --> 00:31:50.569
is going back to what we've talked about, right?

00:31:51.829 --> 00:31:56.910
The idea here is that to try to do things to

00:31:56.910 --> 00:31:59.970
take care of your fellow citizens is somehow

00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:03.269
communistic and socialistic, therefore somehow

00:32:03.269 --> 00:32:06.509
foreign. And anti -Christian. Anti -Christian,

00:32:07.670 --> 00:32:10.539
un -American. Yeah. Then you get, and I've never

00:32:10.539 --> 00:32:13.819
understood this, people can educate me on why

00:32:13.819 --> 00:32:16.420
it exists, but this association of Judaism with

00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:19.319
communism that keeps coming up in these kind

00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:21.279
of circles. I've never understood that, but I

00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.759
mean, there that is too. So you're taking a whole

00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:27.240
bunch of boogeymen and putting them together,

00:32:27.740 --> 00:32:34.559
xenophobic things, to then make FDR seem un -American

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:39.650
and doing strange foreign things That we don't

00:32:39.650 --> 00:32:41.089
want in this country, right? Yes, that's what

00:32:41.089 --> 00:32:43.349
this all comes down to Yes, it's got nothing

00:32:43.349 --> 00:32:44.890
to do with who he was actually related to or

00:32:44.890 --> 00:32:47.029
what his actual family history is No, it doesn't

00:32:47.029 --> 00:32:49.250
matter as long as you can call him a name that

00:32:49.250 --> 00:32:52.130
that raises these these boogeyman fears in people

00:32:52.130 --> 00:32:56.569
Yes, it's it's basically like using tropes Which

00:32:56.569 --> 00:32:59.769
again, you know, we're seeing some of these tropes

00:32:59.769 --> 00:33:04.420
reemerge and people who are unaware of the history

00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:06.920
to get get to get onto the mission of the podcast

00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:09.519
we're talking about let's look at what people

00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:13.000
have forgotten about you know if you if you know

00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.400
the history some of the things that you see in

00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:18.440
terms of opposition talking points these things

00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:21.900
are old as Methuselah you know and so you keep

00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:23.720
seeing these things getting recycled they wait

00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:26.039
for people to forget about them and then they

00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.460
get reused again and repurposed in different

00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:34.450
guises but but but also You you you see that

00:33:34.450 --> 00:33:37.509
The cartoon version the bumper sticker version

00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:38.970
of American history that kind of looks at well

00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:40.650
Roosevelt came along and he did things to fix

00:33:40.650 --> 00:33:43.470
the Great Depression. Yeah, right There's issues

00:33:43.470 --> 00:33:44.990
with that because a lot of things he did during

00:33:44.990 --> 00:33:46.670
the depression made it worse And then finally

00:33:46.670 --> 00:33:47.890
he figured out to make it better and that kind

00:33:47.890 --> 00:33:49.690
of thing, right? Well, we didn't know economics

00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:51.710
like right so I'm not trying to blame him. I'm

00:33:51.710 --> 00:33:54.069
just saying that right he Not not everything

00:33:54.069 --> 00:33:56.109
he did was perfect. But but the other point is

00:33:56.109 --> 00:33:59.240
that The things he did were not necessarily popular

00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.180
in a lot of circles, but there was a lot of resentment

00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:06.980
that lasted until until Trump until until today

00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:08.860
until today like you're saying you were talking

00:34:08.860 --> 00:34:10.579
in the 50s, right? Certainly in the 50s It was

00:34:10.579 --> 00:34:13.139
very in very close memory like 20 years ago Roosevelt

00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:14.539
had done these things and it was by no means

00:34:14.539 --> 00:34:17.420
accepted in many circles in the 50s Certainly

00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.340
the government is the enemy. I mean starting

00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:22.800
with Eisenhower when the opponents of the Great

00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.039
Depression thought he was gonna dismantle everything

00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.420
I don't know what your grandparents did but my

00:34:28.420 --> 00:34:31.980
grandparents were auntie roosevelt They I I heard

00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:35.239
all sorts of like nasty stories about this Of

00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.219
course now what this did was make me want to

00:34:37.219 --> 00:34:40.199
read up on roosevelt and I came to Totally opposite

00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:43.980
conclusion as a result of all of this Uh, but

00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:47.000
this is like in the late 60s early 70s that i'm

00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:50.440
still hearing this And we're talking about someone

00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:55.519
who died in 1945. So there is a lasting sense,

00:34:55.579 --> 00:34:58.460
not only of positive things, but also of real

00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:02.360
visceral hatred concerning certain programs that

00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:04.840
were adapted there. And I think we're going to

00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:07.320
get into some of the programs that actually work

00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:11.019
and some of them that didn't. But to move on,

00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:15.719
to talk about the depression. So There were two

00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:20.579
things that kind of bit the dust that were associated

00:35:20.579 --> 00:35:23.519
with America First in the 1920s at this point.

00:35:24.019 --> 00:35:26.719
The first of these was prohibition. Now, let's

00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:29.440
think about this. Here we have an industry and

00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:34.000
a market that is there, and there's nothing you

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.800
can do to eliminate it. No matter how many laws

00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.679
you pass, it's still going to be there, this

00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:44.010
demand for alcohol. We are having the economy

00:35:44.010 --> 00:35:47.769
seize up. So what makes sense? Should we suppress

00:35:47.769 --> 00:35:49.849
an industry that people are willing to spend

00:35:49.849 --> 00:35:54.889
money on and and and promote or Do we allow it

00:35:54.889 --> 00:35:58.570
to flourish well? Under Roosevelt and this was

00:35:58.570 --> 00:36:01.809
actually a talking point at the 1932 convention

00:36:01.809 --> 00:36:04.190
Roosevelt basically said that we were going to

00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:06.949
get rid of Prohibition once and for all. Now,

00:36:06.949 --> 00:36:10.010
this was a strong talking point for people who

00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:12.630
were proponents of America first, the great experiment,

00:36:13.409 --> 00:36:16.110
which failed miserably in this country. We went

00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:19.289
from saloons that were populated by men to speakeasies

00:36:19.289 --> 00:36:22.929
that were populated by both sexes. So if anything,

00:36:23.269 --> 00:36:26.489
alcohol consumption increased as a result of

00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:28.909
banning it. So you're bringing up the moral.

00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:32.030
The moral side of prohibition bringing up the

00:36:32.030 --> 00:36:35.269
economic issue. Yeah. How did crime obviously

00:36:35.269 --> 00:36:37.130
there was crime because of prohibition. How did

00:36:37.130 --> 00:36:40.889
the crime situation factor into all this debate.

00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:43.389
Well the crime because the only people that were

00:36:43.389 --> 00:36:46.449
really willing to I mean and this is just this

00:36:46.449 --> 00:36:50.150
is just a logical conundrum. The only people

00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:52.610
who are supplying liquor at the time are criminals,

00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:55.769
because you're violating the law. And organized

00:36:55.769 --> 00:36:59.510
crime is the group that's most well -equipped

00:36:59.510 --> 00:37:02.929
to be able to supply this forbidden fruit to

00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:04.869
people. Understood. But what I'm asking, though,

00:37:05.050 --> 00:37:07.389
is like, so in this debate, though, this political

00:37:07.389 --> 00:37:11.750
debate, circa 1932, economic, moral, but also

00:37:11.750 --> 00:37:13.869
the crime issue was in there, too, is what I'm

00:37:13.869 --> 00:37:16.289
saying, right? What did they say about that on

00:37:16.289 --> 00:37:18.849
the two sides? Well, I think they both agree

00:37:18.849 --> 00:37:22.010
that the crime was bad. Well, people had come

00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:26.269
to this. I think the economic, you know, anything

00:37:26.269 --> 00:37:29.210
to get the economy started, anything to stimulate

00:37:29.210 --> 00:37:32.050
the economy was considered good. Just considering

00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:35.230
the fact just how bad things were. You know,

00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:39.320
you're talking about, you know. the economy decreasing

00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:44.420
by about a third roughly by 1932. And so anything

00:37:44.420 --> 00:37:47.340
that would help with that, there was still strong

00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:50.800
moral grounds for people arguing against it.

00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:55.039
But the fact that we had seen all these cases

00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:00.719
of wealthy bootleggers and crime actually becoming

00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:05.739
more prominent. As result of prohibition it kind

00:38:05.739 --> 00:38:09.099
of trumped that it kind of like eliminated that.

00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:12.659
So what the moral eliminate kind of undermine

00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:15.340
the moral argument i was drinking but now you're

00:38:15.340 --> 00:38:17.619
but now you're rewarding organized crime yes

00:38:17.619 --> 00:38:19.500
you're not getting ahead morally and you're not

00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:23.059
really keeping people you know i mean if anything.

00:38:23.860 --> 00:38:25.880
You know as you and i have remarked previously

00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:30.559
mike by making liquor illegal you kind of lost

00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:33.329
control over it. You had no way, you know, if

00:38:33.329 --> 00:38:35.369
it's illegal and it becomes part of this sort

00:38:35.369 --> 00:38:39.150
of underground economy, then people will drink,

00:38:39.349 --> 00:38:42.269
and you can have like 11 -year -olds go down

00:38:42.269 --> 00:38:45.070
and buy like a bottle of vodka. You can't license

00:38:45.070 --> 00:38:47.750
it, you can't tax it, you can't regulate it.

00:38:47.750 --> 00:38:51.170
You have no regulation. By definition. You don't

00:38:51.170 --> 00:38:52.730
have any official presence in it because it's

00:38:52.730 --> 00:38:55.590
illegal. It's illegal. And so the the market

00:38:55.590 --> 00:38:58.989
that's basically serving this You know that the

00:38:58.989 --> 00:39:01.309
the best thing you can do if you have if you

00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:04.070
have something that's a societal problem like

00:39:04.070 --> 00:39:07.010
alcohol is to regulate it not to make it illegal

00:39:07.010 --> 00:39:11.650
because then you lose all sorts of in any ability

00:39:11.650 --> 00:39:15.570
to kind of control it as a result, but I think

00:39:15.570 --> 00:39:17.389
I said this earlier like even the top Phil talked

00:39:17.389 --> 00:39:20.829
about how we were A really drunk country by European

00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:23.070
standards and he was writing in the early 1800s

00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:25.309
about what he found here. Drunk all day, everybody

00:39:25.309 --> 00:39:29.989
was drunk all day and such. So there was that.

00:39:31.269 --> 00:39:33.170
I'm not trying to defend prohibitionists but

00:39:33.170 --> 00:39:36.610
they did have a reason beyond just morals and

00:39:36.610 --> 00:39:39.170
like that. Actually socially it was terrible

00:39:39.170 --> 00:39:41.409
because there was so many... There was family

00:39:41.409 --> 00:39:43.469
violence, there was fathers abandoning families,

00:39:43.630 --> 00:39:45.449
there were drunks laying in the gut. It was happening

00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:47.250
all the time in the United States. So we were

00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:49.840
very drunk. Yeah, Prohibition then failed to

00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:53.300
really do anything about it. Yeah, really it

00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:55.719
did nothing successful, but you're not you're

00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:58.679
not really You know if you're gonna talk about

00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.739
that You're not really treating the problem by

00:40:01.739 --> 00:40:05.079
making it harder to get Your you have to treat

00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:08.099
the individual right, you know But and in fact

00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:09.960
and this is this is prohibition is not our main

00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:12.440
topic But one of the weird things about prohibition

00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:14.719
is that it was not actually illegal to possess

00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:18.059
alcohol. No It was illegal to make it. It was

00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:19.860
illegal to ship it. It was illegal to sell it.

00:40:19.940 --> 00:40:22.739
But if you possessed it, that was legal. Yeah.

00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:25.340
So whatever you had in your house, when prohibition

00:40:25.340 --> 00:40:27.059
started, they couldn't come take it from you

00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:28.980
because nothing wrong with having that. Some

00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:32.039
of the senior men's clubs in New York. like the

00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:35.820
union club stocked up, stocked up big and basically

00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:38.340
managed to get through all the prohibition with

00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:43.199
large supplies of liquor and wine intact. So

00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:46.000
if you were if you were upper class, you go to

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:48.920
the union club and get yourself a Manhattan and.

00:40:49.019 --> 00:40:51.059
Nobody was going to come in there and raid the

00:40:51.059 --> 00:40:52.800
place. You know, there's the movie trope of,

00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.800
you know, the revenuers come in, right? And they're

00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:56.300
busting the speakeas, you know, something every

00:40:56.300 --> 00:40:57.739
morning out jumping out the windows and things,

00:40:57.840 --> 00:40:59.980
right, to get away. But my understanding was

00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:02.340
that actually that the patrons were not the patrons

00:41:02.340 --> 00:41:04.780
were not in trouble. It was the owners. They

00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:06.320
were merely possessing alcohol and you could

00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:09.079
do that. It was the bartenders. It was the waitresses,

00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.460
the waiters. It was the owner. It was, you know,

00:41:11.619 --> 00:41:13.900
whoever brought sold them. Yeah, they were all

00:41:13.900 --> 00:41:15.500
in trouble. Not the people sitting there with

00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:29.570
the Timmy Tass. We digress. It's interesting

00:41:29.570 --> 00:41:32.210
to consider how, you know, if America first has

00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:36.309
this concept of morality about it, there's a

00:41:36.309 --> 00:41:38.510
better and more moral time. For immigrants. Well,

00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:41.130
but in this case for everybody. Yeah. um it's

00:41:41.130 --> 00:41:42.530
interesting to consider how much of a failure

00:41:42.530 --> 00:41:45.769
prohibition was in that sense well and also the

00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:48.210
fact that it was portrayed as like an immigrant

00:41:48.210 --> 00:41:51.489
a problem that was being sponsored by immigrants

00:41:51.489 --> 00:41:56.369
like the irish going to the saloon or the italian

00:41:56.369 --> 00:41:59.829
gangs and well are having wine and stuff but

00:41:59.829 --> 00:42:03.789
but just the act of these ethnic groups, Italians,

00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:05.949
I mean, Germans with the beer halls and everything,

00:42:06.650 --> 00:42:10.130
which was quite a huge part of socialization

00:42:10.130 --> 00:42:13.769
for the ethnic German community. It's like these

00:42:13.769 --> 00:42:17.150
things were seen as a way of white Anglo -Saxon

00:42:17.150 --> 00:42:20.070
Protestantism kind of controlling these guys.

00:42:20.289 --> 00:42:26.219
But it was a problem for Native, like white Anglo

00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:28.179
-Saxon Protestants, it wasn't like they weren't

00:42:28.179 --> 00:42:30.739
drinking. They were drinking, too, because you

00:42:30.739 --> 00:42:33.179
have the case with de Tocqueville before you

00:42:33.179 --> 00:42:35.699
had these big waves of immigration, of alcoholism

00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:38.360
being rampant in the United States. And it also

00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:42.659
wasn't just foreign people or not true Americans

00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:45.599
engaging in this, right? Yes. You famously had

00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.940
Italian organized crime. You had Jewish gangsters.

00:42:49.420 --> 00:42:52.539
But you also had German gangsters were much more

00:42:52.539 --> 00:42:55.860
accepted by this time In American polity people

00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:58.260
of German ancestry, right? And of course, there

00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:00.519
were Irish gangsters another ethnic group closer

00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:03.719
to the mainstream by the 1920s You had plenty

00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:04.960
of people that had nothing to do with any of

00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:06.739
those ethnic groups who were drinking involved

00:43:06.739 --> 00:43:09.719
in it somehow, right? I mean, yeah, it's another

00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:12.920
silly I mean they're rearing to blame anything

00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:15.000
on some kind of foreign influence There are people

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.079
in the Midwest and the bootlakers are all like,

00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:21.199
you know White Anglo -Saxon Protestants that

00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:23.480
are running. Yeah, you know, but it's not Phil

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.760
was talking about the cities He wasn't visiting

00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:29.079
the yeoman farmers who were in their back -breaking

00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.699
work Day -to -day in the 1820s, right? But in

00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:34.840
the 1820s, you couldn't drink the water. Yeah

00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.900
get sick What was safe? No, seriously, what was

00:43:37.900 --> 00:43:40.579
safe to drink beer was was safety. Yeah beer

00:43:40.579 --> 00:43:44.000
I mean John Adams would get up every morning

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.739
and he would have hard cider as a as a as a bracer

00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:51.320
and it's like... It's great for the digestion.

00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.440
It's great for the digestion. He swore by it

00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.460
and he lived to be in his 90s. But the reason

00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:00.960
he's drinking cider is not because he's a booze

00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.460
hound, it's because the water's not fit to drink

00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:05.659
and they don't quite understand this whole bacteria

00:44:05.659 --> 00:44:09.300
thing and how you basically make water fit to

00:44:09.300 --> 00:44:15.440
drink at this point, you know. So this was this,

00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:20.019
you know, alcohol Was ever present but it was

00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:22.760
like you said there was a reason for this The

00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:24.340
interesting thing about it the American first

00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:26.880
perspective then is is that what you were saying

00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.239
about they're blaming somehow Our problems with

00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:33.619
alcohol on a foreign influence. Yes, and it isn't

00:44:33.619 --> 00:44:35.199
it isn't sure foreigners came here and drank

00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:37.800
We all did too. Yeah, that's what different people

00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:41.820
drink right Germans drank beer. We drank whiskey

00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:44.920
whiskey that was you know, I mean, you know That

00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:48.199
was actually the easiest way for people living

00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:53.280
in the interior to bring in crops was to distill

00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:59.980
it. Whiskey is lighter than, say, like bushels

00:44:59.980 --> 00:45:04.460
of grain here. We can refer to the Whiskey Rebellion,

00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:07.699
for example. So it's not something new here.

00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:11.619
But let's move on here and talk about The second

00:45:11.619 --> 00:45:15.019
element of America First, and this is kind of

00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:20.739
fun in my mind, interesting. So the Klan gets

00:45:20.739 --> 00:45:25.579
a huge blow economically because of the Great

00:45:25.579 --> 00:45:29.880
Depression. The Klan had like a $10 annual membership

00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:32.900
fee. Because of the Great Depression, people

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:36.980
weren't able to afford it. Too bad, as far as

00:45:36.980 --> 00:45:41.179
I'm concerned. they they this this kind of led

00:45:41.179 --> 00:45:46.260
them to to kind of become economically bankrupt

00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:48.260
because they weren't getting in these membership

00:45:48.260 --> 00:45:50.340
fees that had kind of sustained them throughout

00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:53.639
the 1920s allowed for this big march that we

00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:56.760
talked about in the previous episode about being

00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:58.940
able to march down Washington DC that is being

00:45:58.940 --> 00:46:06.219
funneled and fueled by all manner of annual membership

00:46:06.219 --> 00:46:10.260
fees. People in rural America who are, again,

00:46:10.699 --> 00:46:12.599
having economic problems that are being made

00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:14.519
worse by the Great Depression, they cannot afford

00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.860
$10 to chip in to keep the clan in business.

00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:19.900
And $10 isn't selling much today, but that was

00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:35.199
some money back then. It was. So, Mike, Do you

00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.659
have any idea what $10 a year would be equivalent

00:46:38.659 --> 00:46:43.880
in purchasing power in 2025 money? The internet

00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:49.239
tells me that $10 in 1932 is equivalent in purchasing

00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:57.119
power in 2025 of about $234 .65. So we're talking

00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:02.219
23 times plus as much. 23, 24 times as much.

00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:05.260
And if you don't have any money, To begin with,

00:47:05.260 --> 00:47:08.300
when you're basically having to make soup out

00:47:08.300 --> 00:47:12.300
of thistles, which is, that is what people are

00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:15.019
doing. People are making... I wasn't expecting

00:47:15.019 --> 00:47:18.460
that. It's true. I believe you. I believe you.

00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:19.960
You know, I mean, you know, if you look at, if

00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:22.400
you look at like social histories of like, you

00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:24.739
know, like Studs Terkel book, which talks about

00:47:24.739 --> 00:47:28.550
the great depression. It's like things are pretty

00:47:28.550 --> 00:47:32.210
grim and you know, this is a luxury a huge luxury

00:47:32.210 --> 00:47:33.849
We've read the stories of what people who would

00:47:33.849 --> 00:47:35.889
go into a restaurant order a bowl of hot water

00:47:35.889 --> 00:47:37.389
pour ketchup in it And that was their tomato

00:47:37.389 --> 00:47:39.550
soup. Yeah, there were stories like that. Yeah

00:47:39.550 --> 00:47:41.489
from the depression Yeah, there's all there's

00:47:41.489 --> 00:47:44.210
all sorts of things where you know, you you use

00:47:44.210 --> 00:47:47.650
corn flakes to make You know casseroles and stuff

00:47:47.650 --> 00:47:49.789
like that things that things that are that are

00:47:49.789 --> 00:47:52.849
gonna be minimal costing Ingredients they'll

00:47:52.849 --> 00:47:57.929
use to try to stretch So the ability to be able

00:47:57.929 --> 00:47:59.570
to feed the family. So the country is much wealthier

00:47:59.570 --> 00:48:04.070
today than it was in the 1930s. Yeah. Even today,

00:48:04.150 --> 00:48:05.230
there are a lot of people who couldn't scrape

00:48:05.230 --> 00:48:08.869
together $235 for an annual fee for something.

00:48:08.949 --> 00:48:11.610
Yeah. Even today, right? Yeah. And there's a

00:48:11.610 --> 00:48:13.869
lot of money in those folks. So anyway. Yeah.

00:48:13.929 --> 00:48:16.210
So that hurt the Klan. That hurt the Klan. The

00:48:16.210 --> 00:48:18.150
Depression hurt the Klan. And really, we're not

00:48:18.150 --> 00:48:20.530
going to see the Klan come back on the scene

00:48:20.530 --> 00:48:24.940
as a force until civil rights comes along. In

00:48:24.940 --> 00:48:28.400
the 50s. Now it's the same, remember I made the

00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.019
point in the previous episode about how the clan

00:48:31.019 --> 00:48:34.199
of the 1860s, 1870s was destroyed. The new clan

00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:37.639
arose in the World War I, 1920s era. This is

00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:39.800
the same, that second clan still existing, but

00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:42.699
it's at a much subdued level. It's not another

00:48:42.699 --> 00:48:45.800
new third clan that's been created. It's that

00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:48.519
same one, and it's managed to keep itself alive

00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:50.159
long enough and then to come back to prominence

00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:53.590
later. Yes, but... There are significant differences

00:48:53.590 --> 00:48:56.269
between this. I think we could call it the new

00:48:56.269 --> 00:48:58.849
clan here. In effect, it's a new movement. It

00:48:58.849 --> 00:49:01.849
doesn't have the presence north of the Mason

00:49:01.849 --> 00:49:04.889
-Dixon line that the old one did. It's not like

00:49:04.889 --> 00:49:07.329
it doesn't exist. It has an organizational lineage,

00:49:07.389 --> 00:49:10.289
but it's a new movement within that. And it's

00:49:10.289 --> 00:49:13.570
limited to the south, because we're talking about

00:49:13.570 --> 00:49:17.929
civil rights here. And this is where the civil

00:49:17.929 --> 00:49:21.449
rights movement is actually operating. So it

00:49:21.449 --> 00:49:24.010
lost its national prominence. Yes. The situation

00:49:24.010 --> 00:49:30.309
of the 20s where it was accepted and even honored

00:49:30.309 --> 00:49:32.769
throughout the country. That goes away because

00:49:32.769 --> 00:49:37.050
of its decline in the 30s. Yes. And I would argue

00:49:37.050 --> 00:49:40.070
this is kind of what makes it a pariah organization,

00:49:40.590 --> 00:49:43.050
where you do not have elements throughout the

00:49:43.050 --> 00:49:45.949
country supporting it. And it's limited to this

00:49:45.949 --> 00:49:54.159
regional area and so forth. That you most of

00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:56.460
the country is going to find it distasteful.

00:49:56.900 --> 00:50:01.460
OK, OK, it's fine to say that. But but then why?

00:50:01.820 --> 00:50:05.360
So in other words, if it was fairly popular in

00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.539
the Midwest and the North in the 20s, then it

00:50:08.539 --> 00:50:13.019
goes broke. What makes that those two don't have

00:50:13.019 --> 00:50:14.420
anything to do with each other, right? You could

00:50:14.420 --> 00:50:16.500
remain popular and be broke You could be less

00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:19.239
popular and remain a wealthy organization. What

00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:21.260
what is it then made them also less possible

00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:26.380
and less Popular in addition to being more broke.

00:50:26.420 --> 00:50:29.539
Well other organizations come along which we're

00:50:29.539 --> 00:50:31.440
going to get into we're gonna get into that we're

00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.400
gonna get into that somewhat you really away.

00:50:33.500 --> 00:50:38.789
Yes, so would it be fair to say that the This

00:50:38.789 --> 00:50:41.690
second iteration of the Klan kind of reached

00:50:41.690 --> 00:50:46.190
its zenith at At its March on Washington. Yeah,

00:50:46.190 --> 00:50:50.809
1925 ish. Yeah Maybe because the 1926 March that

00:50:50.809 --> 00:50:53.050
happened was only half the size. Yeah, and I

00:50:53.050 --> 00:50:57.369
would also just add as a side note that the 1910s

00:50:57.369 --> 00:51:01.969
and 20s coincide that is exactly when this proliferation

00:51:01.969 --> 00:51:06.670
of Monuments are erected to a southern Confederate

00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:11.440
generals and icons exactly in that timeframe.

00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:17.739
That's it for this episode of the United States

00:51:17.739 --> 00:51:21.980
of Amnesia. Thank you for listening. We hope

00:51:21.980 --> 00:51:24.079
you learned something and we hope you discovered

00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:26.340
new ways of looking at things you had already

00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:29.480
heard or thought about or perhaps hadn't heard

00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:33.539
about. If you enjoyed it, that's great. If we

00:51:33.539 --> 00:51:37.110
made you mad, that's okay too. Either way. email

00:51:37.110 --> 00:51:41.429
us at usa .amnesia at gmail .com and let us know

00:51:41.429 --> 00:51:44.690
what you think. Also, let us know about anything

00:51:44.690 --> 00:51:47.010
you think we missed or got wrong. We'd like to

00:51:47.010 --> 00:51:50.730
know about that too. And of course, please like

00:51:50.730 --> 00:51:52.750
and subscribe and let your friends and neighbors

00:51:52.750 --> 00:51:57.170
know about us. We also have a website. It's www

00:51:57.170 --> 00:52:04.550
.usofamnesia .com. For Marshall, Mike, and myself,

00:52:05.110 --> 00:52:06.010
till next time.