Episode 104: America First - Part 4

WEBVTT

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the 1910s and 20s coincide. That is exactly when

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this proliferation of monuments are erected to

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southern Confederate generals and icons. Exactly

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in that time frame. Yeah, that is true. And again,

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we are going to see other groups that are going

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to come along. We're not going to get into a

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lot of this stuff during the civil rights era,

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just because that's going to go beyond, but we're

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going to see in the 30s other groups and other

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organizations that are going to represent a lot

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of the interest of the Klan and in opposition

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to Roosevelt dominantly. That's going to be a

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new element that we're going to see. So it sounds

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like the Klan has competition now. Yes. And so

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the other These other groups marketing was better

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than the clans was at this point. It's kind of

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like they got a bigger market share of the yes

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Yeah, okay. That's interesting. All right Welcome

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to the United States of amnesia you found us.

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Thank you We are the podcast that reminds us

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of what we have forgotten It is often said that

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history repeats itself Mark Twain allegedly said

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that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes

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Ecclesiastes probably said it best in chapter

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1 verse 9, quote, everything that has been will

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be again. Everything that has been done will

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be done again. There is nothing new under the

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sun, close quote. But over time many topics have

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become clouded by biases and oversimplifications

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or have become mythologized and now are misunderstood.

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Misunderstanding means learning the wrong lessons

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from history, perhaps, or even learning nothing

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at all. And that can leave us poorly prepared

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for history's next rhyme. Your hosts are Marshall

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Newman, Mike Mendenhall, and myself, Blake Henke.

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In this podcast, we will cover topics of history,

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politics, and religion, and how they interact,

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and also how they relate. to modern day events

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and themes. We will try to cut through the biases

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over simplifications and myths to learn better

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lessons from the past and to see what they can

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tell us about the present and maybe even the

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future. This episode four of our America first

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series is going to be a deep dive into the mid

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1930s So we do have a lot of doubling down though

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You know one sort of racial policies during this

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period we are seeing lynching happening across

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the United States and There is a long, extremely

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long timeframe that we see for attempts to pass

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a federal non -lynching bill. Now, I'm just going

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to say it is not to Roosevelt's credit that he

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did not get behind this anti -lynching movement.

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Eleanor most definitely did. There were very

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progressive congressmen and senators that were

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in favor of this. But this became a kind of doubling

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down that we saw on on a kind of racial politics

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during the 1930s. Roosevelt did not want to get

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into any dispute with the South. Now, the South

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has a tendency and we will get into this in a

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later broadcast or later episode how the South

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can affect progressive movements here. But. The

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South became kind of problematic with the with

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the New Deal, particularly when it meant the

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New Deal applied to a decreasing number of southern

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blacks as well as southern whites and with with

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matters of pay and and so so forth. You know,

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and this federal law banning lynching, I mean,

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we are talking extra judiciary methods here.

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We are talking people being executed without,

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you know, judicial process here which is kind

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of an element this kind of element that we see

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with Kind of America first that we can do things

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without necessarily involving, you know troubling

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the law about them extra judicial punishment

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yes, and Very easy and no burden of proof whatsoever

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none at all on the on the accusers here I mean

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you look like the guy that did it. Yeah, or you

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look like the kind of guy that would do it Yeah,

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which often had to do with Oh race and yeah,

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well like a big case that existed during the

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30s that i'm just going to mention was the scotsboro

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boys in which this group of african -american

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uh youths were accused of raping these two white

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women and this was a cause celeb amongst people

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who were part of the nascent civil rights movement

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in the north definitely in the north uh but The

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practice of lynching though was actually seen

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in some quarters as a positive good There was

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one Senator from my home state of Louisiana Who

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basically defended lynching by saying we shall

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at all costs preserve the white supremacy of

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America And that was how what lynching was regarded

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as being able to do here, you know but To move

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on here So the New Deal was able, and maybe we

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should talk about what the New Deal was able

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to accomplish before moving on to its critics

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here, which are going to suck up some of these

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anti -immigrant, anti -Semitic groups here. They

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had a number of approaches to problems. Now,

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Some are going to be more effective than others.

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I will, to my dying day, say the best thing that

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Roosevelt did was to reform banking and the stock

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market because this stabilized this very jittery

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component of the US economy. It does not get

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the credit that it deserves, in my opinion. But

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it's again, we don't see this happening where

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we have these periodic collapses. And if you

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want to know what I mean, 19 2008, that is an

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example of what happens when you when you when

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you get rid of these protections. We did not

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have anything like that. I mean, for for for

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the three of us, it's like. We did not witness

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anything like that. I mean, the closest that

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we come to something like that are the energy

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shocks of the 70s. That is the closest we get

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to something like this. Something like 2008,

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that was kind of scary for a while there, in

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which it looked like all the banks were going

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to melt down. And kind of like, this was the

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government not doing its job here because they

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felt like, oh, we need to impose some cost on

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unsavory business practices. This did not happen

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for, you know, I mean, we kind of had this in

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the 80s with savings and loan crisis, but we

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did not have a full scale meltdown until we start

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getting rid of these things that Roosevelt put

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in there. And the funny thing about that is,

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is a lot of the people who advocate getting rid

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of these things, right? They don't like restrictions

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on business. It's a restriction on freedom. If

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you just trust the wealthy and the titans of

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industry, they'll do the best thing for everybody

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and that'll create jobs, because they'll create

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jobs and whatever they say. Overseas. Well, then

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there's that. But I mean, the other thing about

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it is that you need to have a stable financial

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environment in which to do business. Yes. And

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everybody benefits from that. If I can't trust

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my bank and I'm gonna keep all my money under

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my mattress, it sits under my mattress. It doesn't

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get invested anywhere, right? It doesn't earn

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interest, so I don't make money off interest

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so I can spend more on things and buy them from

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others and whatever. And then companies, they

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have the same problems, right? They can't rely

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on whatever money they've got stashed away. It

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might disappear on them. And on and on and on.

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I mean, a stable business environment requires

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a stable financial environment. And so the idea

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that while you're less free and you're worse

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off, this doesn't make any sense to me. Well,

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having depositors insurance, which is also which

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also comes out during this period. It's like

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my great -grandparents ended up losing everything

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they had earned over 40 years of being in this

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country when their local bank in Kingsville,

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Texas went out of business. They kept their money

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in a box under his bed and they did not, they

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refused to take it down to the bank and they

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paid cash for everything, like for houses. They

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did not finance anything because they were too

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suspicious of what had happened before. And they

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had to go through and rebuild everything. Right.

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You see that in the bank run scene and it's a

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wonderful life. Yes. Right. Yes. That's what

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was happening in the country. Yes. And that and

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when that movie was made, that was that was within

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living memory. It was a very close memory. I

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mean, it was only 10 years earlier. Yeah. I mean,

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and if you talk to people from that period and

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they talked about banks failing, you would you

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would see a kind of panic. impaling, you know,

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just absolute fear going over them just to recall

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this where everything that you had can be wiped

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away. You know, then to talk about some other

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things that kind of, you know, were useful that

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didn't necessarily make things better for people

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who were opposed to the New Deal, Social Security,

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the big one, collective bargaining. This was

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the absolute horror. for most of business America.

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Having labor able to negotiate living wages when

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they were used to having all these lovely immigrants

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coming in and being able to like pit them against

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each other so they would fight over say like

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miserable wages where the whole family had to

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work just to keep body and soul alive. Rural

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electrification which changed things significantly.

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for people because at the time it was considered

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not economically viable for private companies

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to run power lines out to farms. So essentially

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people living with kerosene lamps and wood burning

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stoves up through the 30s where people in the

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cities could basically, they took these sorts

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of things for granted. So these things change

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things for the better. I'm going to say though,

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New Deal did nothing to preserve the family farm.

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I mean, and this is what's ironic. For the New

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Deal, they felt like the key to the economy was

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fixing rural America. If we can get the farms

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back up and profitable and farming becomes kind

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of something that people are doing, they felt

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like this was going to make the biggest difference.

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There were things like price controls. There

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were attempts just kind of like notoriously go

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in and eliminate farm animals to raise the prices

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up. It did not stop the trend away from people

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moving to cities, moving to towns. It did not

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preserve this sort of idea of yeoman farming

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and you know as you and I can testify thank God

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our families left our respective members the

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family left rural America and went you know your

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grandfather my grandmother thank God thank you

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for leaving because it's not a very easy life

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and I don't know whether this was actually something

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that was worth preserving you know we we get

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into like economies of scale here when you start

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having these large organizations I mean if you

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look at at grapes of wrath These guys are considered

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to be the enemy, but this is all the people that

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are setting up these sort of highly mechanized

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farm structures and such. But I don't know that

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that's necessarily a bad thing. Maybe price supports

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might not be the best thing, but anyway. Farming

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was a bigger part of the national economy in

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the 1930s. Yes, it was. So it's not just dumb

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to say we have to get farmers back on their feet,

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because that was a more significant part of the

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economy then than it would be today. Yeah, I'm

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not I'm not done with the importance of feeding

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ourselves. Don't get me wrong on that But how

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big a contribution of the overall economy is

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that it was it was a bigger proportion in those

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days? Yes, I know I'm not sure what the proportion

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was but it was bigger and it made probably made

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more sense to try to get them back on their feet

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You know back then yes is all I'm saying. Yeah,

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it does make sense, but it's kind of like you're

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dealing with Kind of the forces of history. I

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would argue at this point where you're dealing

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with, first of all, the after effects of overproduction

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from World War I, overextension in terms of credit,

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and also the fact that you're not needing all

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of these small family farm organizations to grow

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sufficient food to feed America. You can still

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do so when you've got fewer farmers, more machinery

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to be able to kind of like limit the number of

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people you need. So just as a, I think the figure

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right now for people that are involved in that

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is 3%. I don't know what the figure was for 1930,

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but for 1920 it was 40 % of the population. Yes.

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Yeah. That was my point. Yeah. So a lot of people

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are relying on it. I'm just looking at some stats

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here real quick. 30 .4 million people lived and

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worked on farms. in 1930. And the country was

00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.539
probably about 150 million people then, or maybe

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even a little bit less at that point. So that's

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a big percentage of the population. There were

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6 .3 million farms in 1930. And the number of

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farms peaked at around 6 .8 million in the mid

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1930s. And then it's been declining gradually

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ever since then. I mean, one of the ideas that

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they had was, and I mean, this sounds nice. But

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the idea is that you're going to create kind

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of subsistence farming and you're going to support

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subsistence farming, in which case people will

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earn enough, will produce enough to be able just

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to support themselves on their farms and no more.

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Now, I have a problem with that because there

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are certain things that you cannot produce, you

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know, unless you're like really, really staffed

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to do so with equipment and such, like you're

00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:25.629
not going to be able to produce clothes. Unless

00:15:25.629 --> 00:15:28.070
you've got like looms and things like that, you're

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not going to be able to, you know, there's things

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like sugar that you're going to have, you know,

00:15:32.450 --> 00:15:34.269
unless you're in Louisiana, you're going to have

00:15:34.269 --> 00:15:38.169
to like buy at the store. I don't see that this

00:15:38.169 --> 00:15:40.769
actually benefits the people that are that are

00:15:40.769 --> 00:15:44.330
attempting it. But there is a and as you've talked

00:15:44.330 --> 00:15:47.240
about. Previously, you know the yeoman farmer

00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.559
idea right the United States has an emotional

00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:51.460
attachment to the idea It still does to this

00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:54.360
day. Yes all the small family farm. It's not

00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.139
an argument for economic efficiency It's not

00:15:57.139 --> 00:15:58.980
an argument for productivity and anything like

00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:01.820
that. It's it's an argument that there is that

00:16:01.820 --> 00:16:05.820
that family farms just have Value in and of themselves

00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:08.539
by their mere existence and the loss of family

00:16:08.539 --> 00:16:11.960
farms is a is a bad thing even if it's replaced

00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.120
by I think you're arguing, you know, more efficient,

00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:18.539
larger scale operations. They can feed people

00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:22.220
cheaper. Feed people cheaper. But what's always

00:16:22.220 --> 00:16:23.960
interested me about that argument is, and I'm

00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:26.399
not making a case against family farms when I

00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.539
say this, but I mean, it's very selective. I

00:16:28.539 --> 00:16:30.240
mean, there are other industries that have gone

00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.639
out of business or shrunk a lot as things change.

00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:35.480
You know, is there any big sentiment to bring

00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:38.809
back all the blacksmiths? There used to be or

00:16:38.809 --> 00:16:40.490
you know things like that right of the livery

00:16:40.490 --> 00:16:42.490
stables there used to be or you know, whatever

00:16:42.490 --> 00:16:44.590
No, because we don't use horses as much anymore

00:16:44.590 --> 00:16:47.090
as we once did right, but there's no blacksmith

00:16:47.090 --> 00:16:50.090
support act or something. No, there isn't I mean

00:16:50.090 --> 00:16:54.669
that doesn't exactly match up because You can

00:16:54.669 --> 00:16:56.690
make a very good argument that you know food

00:16:56.690 --> 00:16:58.450
security is important for a country You have

00:16:58.450 --> 00:17:00.129
to eat right and we don't want to just give away

00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:01.909
all of our food production to other countries

00:17:01.909 --> 00:17:03.169
something that we want we want to grow enough

00:17:03.169 --> 00:17:06.589
here to eat right, but but we do in fact we feed

00:17:06.589 --> 00:17:10.509
much a lot of the world yes we do American agricultural

00:17:10.509 --> 00:17:12.950
products so um you know the thing about it is

00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:15.670
here's something to consider if we're going to

00:17:15.670 --> 00:17:19.569
use your example blacksmith okay and I can cite

00:17:19.569 --> 00:17:23.589
a personal example for this if need be but say

00:17:23.589 --> 00:17:26.609
if you're a blacksmith there are other things

00:17:26.609 --> 00:17:30.029
you can do if you understand how to like forge

00:17:30.029 --> 00:17:35.240
metal and shape it into equipment or things like

00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:37.779
that. There are things you can do. You can go

00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:41.140
in and do something else. Forge other things.

00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.299
Forge other things other than horseshoes. If

00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:48.059
you run a livery stable, you run a garage then.

00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:51.779
In other industries that are, say, being replaced

00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:54.839
as technology grows, there are other things you

00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:58.450
can do. So there's not that need to support it.

00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:00.230
What do you do if you're a farmer? Well, you're

00:18:00.230 --> 00:18:02.789
an unskilled laborer, which is kind of a step

00:18:02.789 --> 00:18:08.289
down. If you own your farm, you migrate to the

00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:10.769
cities or you go, say like the Joad family does

00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:14.049
in Grapes of Wrath, you go and instead of grow

00:18:14.049 --> 00:18:18.710
things, you pick them out in California. So with

00:18:18.710 --> 00:18:23.400
the farmers, what's interesting is While this

00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.559
is not successful, while their approach is not

00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.160
successful, they're getting hit even harder because

00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.799
what they're doing is they're not only losing

00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.680
ground economically, they're kind of, the choices

00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:39.720
that they have are less viable, they're a step

00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:44.420
down for them than they would have had during

00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:46.099
the days when they owned their farm, even as

00:18:46.099 --> 00:19:01.900
miserable as those conditions were. Welcome back.

00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.700
All right. Now we're going to talk about some

00:19:03.700 --> 00:19:06.519
of the movements that sprang up in opposition

00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.599
to the New Deal. So while the New Deal did stabilize

00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:14.000
the economy, it did not completely eradicate

00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.160
dissent on the right or the left. So one movement

00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.559
that existed, that came into being, was the Communist

00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:26.349
Party. Now this Probably not as much as collective

00:19:26.349 --> 00:19:31.509
bargaining was something that inspired fear on

00:19:31.509 --> 00:19:34.569
the part of America's haves. It was never really

00:19:34.569 --> 00:19:38.029
a national organization. And like so many of

00:19:38.029 --> 00:19:39.970
these organizations, it's going to be prominent

00:19:39.970 --> 00:19:45.390
in many niches around the country. For the Communist

00:19:45.390 --> 00:19:50.579
Party, I don't know how this would work. in every

00:19:50.579 --> 00:19:53.200
case, but in some cases, according to at least

00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:55.799
one of my professors that told me this back in

00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:59.759
the 80s, he claimed that the party was somewhat

00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.940
ubiquitous in terms of student movements and

00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:06.460
universities back during the 30s. If you wanted

00:20:06.460 --> 00:20:08.880
to have one, you kind of had to involve the Communist

00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.500
Party in whatever activities you were trying

00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:15.000
to promote, like something like the chess club,

00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.890
something as innocuous as that. So, there's also,

00:20:21.150 --> 00:20:23.589
and again, this is filling that void that's left

00:20:23.589 --> 00:20:28.470
by the departure from the scene, at least temporarily,

00:20:28.650 --> 00:20:31.470
of the Ku Klux Klan, and these are pro -Nazi

00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:35.329
inspired organizations. And these are not necessarily

00:20:35.329 --> 00:20:38.829
pro -Nazi in the sense of pro -German Nazi, but

00:20:38.829 --> 00:20:44.390
kind of more fascist than anything else. They're

00:20:44.390 --> 00:20:47.970
not reliant on purely local avenues for funding,

00:20:48.369 --> 00:20:52.309
as we'll see for some of these factors. So another

00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:55.910
factor that came into play in the 1930s was the

00:20:55.910 --> 00:20:58.190
attitude towards the U .S. involvement in World

00:20:58.190 --> 00:21:01.289
War I. Following Hoover's attack on the World

00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:07.170
War I bonus marches in 1932, this kind of represented

00:21:07.170 --> 00:21:12.890
a coming to understanding about the U .S. role.

00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:16.599
And this action, this attack on the bonus march

00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:19.380
was probably cost in the election. So what were

00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:22.140
the attitudes towards World War I in the 1930s?

00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.119
Well, it was seen, you know, initially we had

00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.059
gone in there to defend democracy. We'd gone

00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:31.680
in there to make the world safe for democracy.

00:21:32.299 --> 00:21:34.980
I mean, even though all of the people who were

00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:38.240
fighting the war, at least at first, had democratic

00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.380
forms of government. We were basically trying

00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:45.859
to defend democracy for some reason. I don't

00:21:45.859 --> 00:21:49.420
think it really meant anything in reality. I

00:21:49.420 --> 00:21:53.240
think this was a case of us being lost in our

00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:59.099
propaganda. But the disappointments that came,

00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:03.160
the world was not a better place necessarily

00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:08.799
for everybody. In some cases, It was worse. These

00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:11.000
veterans came back and they couldn't even get

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.640
a beer. You know, the world was not a better

00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:18.480
place. And as hard times developed, the idea

00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.259
was that we had been deceived again by these

00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:26.599
cunning Europeans who are always after an attempt

00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:33.000
to to bamboozle the American population. I think

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.039
they you're talking about. making the world safer

00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.779
democracy and all that stuff, right? And did

00:22:38.779 --> 00:22:42.759
that really have any meaning? And it's a pretty

00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.940
aspirational, vague kind of concept, isn't it?

00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:51.579
But I think it actually has deep roots in the

00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:55.920
American psychology. And even though in recent

00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.799
decades, the United States has been viewed as

00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:00.019
this conservative power in the world that's opposing

00:23:00.019 --> 00:23:03.259
the radical left or whatever you want to hear.

00:23:04.129 --> 00:23:06.410
We actually have been a country which has always

00:23:06.410 --> 00:23:08.990
been revolutionary in the sense of our own revolution

00:23:08.990 --> 00:23:11.670
We've been trying to export our way of doing

00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:14.490
things around the world since 1776 and various

00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:17.329
fits or starts right either by taking it over

00:23:17.329 --> 00:23:19.970
or by you know influencing things It's been done

00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.329
in different ways in different eras But one reason

00:23:22.329 --> 00:23:23.930
we look down on the rest of the world so much

00:23:23.930 --> 00:23:25.349
of the time is that they don't do things the

00:23:25.349 --> 00:23:28.589
way we do it Right. Yes. So here we get dragged

00:23:28.589 --> 00:23:30.569
in by those nasty Europeans into one of their

00:23:30.569 --> 00:23:33.420
wars, right? And if we're gonna do that We're

00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:35.619
gonna we're gonna make Europe and the rest of

00:23:35.619 --> 00:23:37.359
the world be more like the United States We're

00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.680
gonna export a revolution, right? Yes Well, it

00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:42.160
didn't work because it turned out the Europeans

00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.220
acted like nasty Europeans again And that was

00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:46.039
part of the big disappointment of World War one

00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.579
And that's what made us isolationist up until

00:23:48.579 --> 00:23:50.000
World War two, which we're gonna get into I guess

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.519
as we go further But I think you can understand

00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:54.380
it in that context if you think about the United

00:23:54.380 --> 00:23:56.519
States trying to export its own way of thinking

00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.559
around the world it is but there there there

00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:01.740
is and there is but I think the disappointment

00:24:01.900 --> 00:24:06.059
in the aftermath of the war is gonna - No, that's

00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:08.519
what I'm saying. And that was part of the disappointment

00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:09.859
though, right? You went over there and didn't

00:24:09.859 --> 00:24:11.660
accomplish anything. They went right back to

00:24:11.660 --> 00:24:13.359
being nasty Europeans again. And then the other

00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:14.579
things you're talking about when they came home

00:24:14.579 --> 00:24:16.319
and what they experienced here. Yeah, they're

00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.819
not, and people are not necessarily finding,

00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.700
particularly in the 30s, things have not gone

00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:24.920
as according to planned. Things are not better.

00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:30.190
Things are worse. And again, I'm gonna argue

00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:33.430
that this is gonna be fueling this nostalgia

00:24:33.430 --> 00:24:38.210
for this America that never really existed. It's

00:24:38.210 --> 00:24:42.109
gonna make that stronger. The kind of idealized

00:24:42.109 --> 00:24:45.769
America, small town America, yeoman farmers,

00:24:45.910 --> 00:24:50.730
that kind of stuff. None of this ever really

00:24:50.730 --> 00:24:53.849
existed in a point where everybody is benefiting

00:24:53.849 --> 00:24:58.559
equally. from that kind of existence at the time

00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:01.539
here you know if anything people are going to

00:25:01.539 --> 00:25:05.500
be more likely to be benefiting more universally

00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:10.460
but again not everybody after world war two where

00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:12.220
things are going to there will be things that

00:25:12.220 --> 00:25:14.599
will be put into play that will make things a

00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.619
lot better for everybody but nothing was done

00:25:17.619 --> 00:25:20.359
it was just going to sort of spontaneously happen

00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:22.400
the world was going to be a better place and

00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:28.920
it wasn't so kind of as part of this resentment,

00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:34.019
a focus of U .S. diplomacy during its isolationist

00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:35.880
period, because even though we were isolationist,

00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:39.059
we still had relations with the world, and it

00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:42.440
was basically to get money that was owed to the

00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:46.019
United States to collect debts from World War

00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:49.740
I in countries that were facing economic hard

00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:52.720
times. You know, this was something Roosevelt

00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.000
was doing. This was something that Hoover was

00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:56.440
doing. This was something Coolidge was doing.

00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.900
This was a main focus of people's attitudes towards

00:26:02.900 --> 00:26:05.119
the Europeans. It's like, come on and pay up.

00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:09.039
You've had your time to do this. So this is going

00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:12.140
to, this is going to be, you know, kind of affecting

00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:16.039
our view towards the outside world here. We're

00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:18.579
dealing with not only sinister people, but sinister

00:26:18.579 --> 00:26:24.089
deadbeats. And the only nation, and this would

00:26:24.089 --> 00:26:27.329
affect our attitude towards it, was Finland that

00:26:27.329 --> 00:26:29.490
managed to pay off its deaths up until World

00:26:29.490 --> 00:26:33.650
War II. So we had a positive attitude towards

00:26:33.650 --> 00:26:38.250
Finland when the Russians invaded them. However,

00:26:38.509 --> 00:26:41.410
the thing that really, if we want to look at

00:26:41.410 --> 00:26:46.049
what really kind of shaped attitudes, and this

00:26:46.049 --> 00:26:48.779
is going to affect our participation and involvement

00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:52.420
in World War I immensely was the DICE committee.

00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:54.799
This was a congressional committee that became

00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:58.240
known as the Merchants of Death Hearings. And

00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.599
they looked at, they kind of concluded that US

00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:03.859
military involvement in World War I was due to

00:27:03.859 --> 00:27:07.099
the need to preserve the solvency of the Allies

00:27:07.099 --> 00:27:09.819
so that Eastern banking interest, and it's very

00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:13.299
important to remember we are talking just Eastern

00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:16.259
banking interest. And depending on your attitude,

00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.539
Eastern banking interests controlled by Jewish

00:27:19.539 --> 00:27:22.519
Americans. However, most of them are actually

00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:28.380
Protestants, primarily the House of Morgan, and

00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:33.619
U .S. arms dealers would get paid by these debtor

00:27:33.619 --> 00:27:36.319
nations, these out the allies of World War I.

00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:40.799
So no one seemed to recall the importance of

00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.160
the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare.

00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:47.240
or the Zimmerman Telegraphs, things that we talked

00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:50.680
about previously. The hearings produced a very

00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:54.339
long and sordid report of intrigues, bribery,

00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:58.559
collusion, and excessive profits, of war scares,

00:27:59.099 --> 00:28:03.480
artificially... fostered and disarmament conferences

00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.720
that were deliberately wrecked. This was kind

00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.960
of foreign affairs as one great long conspiracy

00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:15.660
to support a small group of Eastern financial

00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:20.660
interest. This led to the passage of the various

00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:22.680
neutrality acts and what the neutrality acts

00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:27.420
did was they they were continually updated. throughout

00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:31.599
the 1930s. But the idea was to restrict U .S.

00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.039
trade, particularly in the realm of armaments

00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.160
and anything that would support the making of

00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:44.200
war, the waging of war, in the 1930s. We were

00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:46.740
not able to really sell or offer any sort of

00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:50.180
support to anyone resisting fascism. It kind

00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:52.839
of took us off the board, but it also limited

00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.849
our influence to be able to counter you know

00:28:56.849 --> 00:28:59.710
these attempts by the Nazis by the Italians to

00:28:59.710 --> 00:29:05.250
be able to to shape the climate over in Europe

00:29:05.250 --> 00:29:10.930
and actually destabilized things Did the dice

00:29:10.930 --> 00:29:14.549
committee offer any evidence for its Reasoning

00:29:14.549 --> 00:29:16.769
behind the idea of this big conspiracy. They

00:29:16.769 --> 00:29:19.890
did they did have people that did talk about

00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:23.829
the importance of These loans and and things

00:29:23.829 --> 00:29:28.150
and they were a factor But they didn't really

00:29:28.150 --> 00:29:31.589
look, they came at this with a preconceived notion

00:29:31.589 --> 00:29:36.049
of what the outcome was going to be. This was

00:29:36.049 --> 00:29:40.029
again this sort of conspiracy theory of U .S.

00:29:40.349 --> 00:29:44.309
diplomacy. And they didn't look at the kind of

00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:48.390
real geopolitical factors that are actually,

00:29:48.569 --> 00:29:51.329
I mean, you know, I don't know that they necessarily

00:29:51.329 --> 00:29:54.829
had the benefit of looking at the actual papers.

00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:58.660
where this is being discussed at a higher level,

00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:04.460
but there's this notion that had persisted that

00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:06.299
there were excessive profits that were being

00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:09.980
made, there were war profiteers, and the war

00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:12.960
profiteer story was something that people made

00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.839
money off war, regardless of whether they were

00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.400
the central powers or the allies. There were

00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:22.319
people that were doing that because, hey, that's

00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.049
the big business in town. if these things are

00:30:26.049 --> 00:30:28.470
going to happen, this is going to be a concern

00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:30.690
for Roosevelt. When Roosevelt is coming in and

00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:33.569
trying to rearm America, he's basically coming

00:30:33.569 --> 00:30:36.109
out there and saying, I'm going to make sure

00:30:36.109 --> 00:30:38.670
that I'm going to raise taxes so there's not

00:30:38.670 --> 00:30:42.710
going to be excessive profits by war profiteers.

00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:47.589
This is going to kind of shape the environment,

00:30:47.630 --> 00:30:51.630
and also it's going to affect how we're going

00:30:51.630 --> 00:30:58.420
to be able to go about dealing with the road

00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:05.279
to war and how we basically prop up France and

00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.799
Britain when they go to war with Germany. So

00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.599
it's the typical conspiracy theory problem where

00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.099
the holders of the theory are unable to have

00:31:15.099 --> 00:31:17.759
more than one idea in mind as the cause of things

00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:23.539
at the same time. Yeah. So for all sorts of historical

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.440
political, ethnic, social, whatever reasons,

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.500
World War I breaks out. And it just so happens

00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:30.680
that when a war like that breaks out, a lot of

00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:34.299
people can make money and can provide loans and

00:31:34.299 --> 00:31:35.619
all these things that they're complaining about,

00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:39.140
right? It doesn't mean that the war happened

00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:41.539
in order to allow the loans and things. It simply

00:31:41.539 --> 00:31:44.299
is an observation that loans and profiteering

00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:46.200
or whatever happened because a war had started.

00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.779
Yes. But no, no, you have to find out that while

00:31:48.779 --> 00:31:51.380
the reason the war started was to result in those

00:31:51.549 --> 00:31:54.329
Those those things I mean loans and profiteering

00:31:54.329 --> 00:31:56.950
and whatever eastern banking interests, you know

00:31:56.950 --> 00:31:59.349
I mean You don't have to have the one that you

00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:01.049
know, you could have a war start and then people

00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:03.329
dive in and make money off it Yes, but you know

00:32:03.329 --> 00:32:05.170
conspiracy theories never work that way. It's

00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:07.150
always got to be that the result is because of

00:32:07.150 --> 00:32:10.990
some kind of cause beforehand I mean in in point

00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:15.470
of fact the government had The the elected government

00:32:15.470 --> 00:32:19.549
had considerable leverage over business during

00:32:19.549 --> 00:32:24.740
world war one And despite the fact that the Dice

00:32:24.740 --> 00:32:27.259
Committee is going to come up and say, well,

00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:29.299
industrialists are pulling the strings, I would

00:32:29.299 --> 00:32:33.400
argue quite the contrary that that is not happening.

00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:36.299
There are various anecdotes that illustrate,

00:32:37.099 --> 00:32:39.420
you know, there's a case where Roosevelt was

00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:43.940
having a dispute with a gentleman who owned a

00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:48.000
shipyard, one Joseph P. Kennedy. And Roosevelt

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.579
wanted these ships as Assistant Secretary of

00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:52.579
the Navy and he basically got the Marines to

00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:56.000
go on board and took the ships from the shipyard.

00:32:56.619 --> 00:33:00.099
You know, I mean, he is not concerned about the

00:33:00.099 --> 00:33:03.660
impact, and he never would be, of Joseph P. Kennedy

00:33:03.660 --> 00:33:08.599
on things that he could do. You know, if anything,

00:33:08.619 --> 00:33:11.259
Kennedy was somebody he would generally work

00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:32.910
around here. So while these events are occurring

00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:35.789
in the United States Why don't we turn our attentions

00:33:35.789 --> 00:33:37.789
to Charles Lindbergh because Lindbergh's gonna

00:33:37.789 --> 00:33:42.009
start playing a bigger and bigger role in things

00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:47.750
as As the 30s progresses here so Lindbergh is

00:33:47.750 --> 00:33:51.230
the most admired person in in in the world at

00:33:51.230 --> 00:33:55.349
this point and Sympathy is exerted towards him

00:33:55.349 --> 00:33:57.369
after the kidnapping and murder of his eldest

00:33:57.369 --> 00:34:05.670
son 1932? Yeah, 1932. This was probably, I mean,

00:34:05.849 --> 00:34:08.230
you know, if I were going to say what was a crime

00:34:08.230 --> 00:34:10.090
of the century, that would be the crime of the

00:34:10.090 --> 00:34:15.130
century, because it's basically you're dealing

00:34:15.130 --> 00:34:20.230
with a child, an infant, someone that was actually

00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:22.170
in a crib. In fact, Lindbergh was afraid that

00:34:22.170 --> 00:34:24.170
his son had climbed out of the crib when they

00:34:24.170 --> 00:34:27.050
couldn't find him. So we're talking about a very

00:34:27.050 --> 00:34:30.730
young child. a very attractive family, heroic

00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:34.769
family, very prominent in - International celebrity.

00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:40.090
International celebrity. And he's spirited away

00:34:40.090 --> 00:34:47.250
by this German guy. And this was kind of like

00:34:47.250 --> 00:34:51.030
a hugely celebrated crime and it took - a bit

00:34:51.030 --> 00:34:53.989
of time to basically track down Bruno Hauptman,

00:34:54.110 --> 00:34:57.429
the guy who was accused of kidnapping and convicted

00:34:57.429 --> 00:35:00.030
of kidnapping and murdering Lindbergh's child.

00:35:00.070 --> 00:35:03.489
So it's very easy to sympathize with the right

00:35:03.489 --> 00:35:05.630
people. There's very little ambiguity in this

00:35:05.630 --> 00:35:07.429
case as to who the good guys are and who the

00:35:07.429 --> 00:35:13.190
bad guys are. But Lindbergh is constantly being

00:35:13.190 --> 00:35:17.110
beset by the press. He had additional children

00:35:17.110 --> 00:35:20.809
and kind of the the straw that broke the camel's

00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:25.829
back, Lindbergh's child was being brought home

00:35:25.829 --> 00:35:29.150
from school, a group of reporters kind of like

00:35:29.150 --> 00:35:30.750
encircled him, almost like, this is almost like

00:35:30.750 --> 00:35:33.750
Princess Diana. If you want to think of a modern

00:35:33.750 --> 00:35:36.750
counterpart, Lindbergh's whole family was like

00:35:36.750 --> 00:35:39.269
Princess Diana because you had reporters that

00:35:39.269 --> 00:35:43.050
would routinely chase them to get pictures and

00:35:43.369 --> 00:35:46.670
And even the point of endangering everybody.

00:35:47.150 --> 00:35:49.730
Well after his Atlantic flight, he did make other

00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:52.409
less spectacular but nonetheless at the time

00:35:52.409 --> 00:35:55.190
pretty spectacular flights down into Mexico and

00:35:55.190 --> 00:35:56.869
South America and all sorts of things like that.

00:35:56.949 --> 00:35:59.650
Everywhere he went, in foreign countries as well,

00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:03.309
he drew gigantic crowds. Yes. And he built the

00:36:03.309 --> 00:36:07.070
aviation industry. He is one of the great pioneers.

00:36:07.570 --> 00:36:12.809
He develops routes. He develops ideas. About

00:36:12.809 --> 00:36:15.829
how one can use can grow commercial aviation.

00:36:15.969 --> 00:36:18.110
I mean like one thing that Lindbergh discovered

00:36:18.110 --> 00:36:22.510
Famously was that blue lights can be seen through

00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:26.829
fog He discovered this and he basically so you

00:36:26.829 --> 00:36:29.690
see this at airports today that they'll use them

00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:35.650
to sort of indicate landing areas that and This

00:36:35.650 --> 00:36:37.769
still this still is something that he's done

00:36:37.769 --> 00:36:44.750
today He's he's very influential and but he's

00:36:44.750 --> 00:36:47.949
finding life in the United States after particularly

00:36:47.949 --> 00:36:52.349
after kidnapping somewhat scary and so he decamps

00:36:52.349 --> 00:36:58.070
to Europe. He initially is over in Britain. He

00:36:58.070 --> 00:37:02.389
rents a house from his father -in -law Dwight

00:37:02.389 --> 00:37:06.250
Murrow's biographer a guy named Harold Nicholson

00:37:06.250 --> 00:37:12.409
and he also takes up with a guy named Dr. Carell.

00:37:12.869 --> 00:37:18.909
Dr. Carell was a proponent of eugenics and he

00:37:18.909 --> 00:37:23.469
thought Lindbergh was the ideal Nordic specimen.

00:37:23.969 --> 00:37:28.289
Lindbergh is of Swedish descent here and Carell

00:37:28.289 --> 00:37:31.570
thinks that he's just wonderful. I mean Carell

00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:33.510
is involved in other things other than eugenics

00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:36.030
but this is kind of the thing to kind of take

00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:40.099
on board here in terms of influence. I think

00:37:40.099 --> 00:37:43.260
that what happens with Lindberg, Lindberg is

00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:48.880
trying to avoid all this publicity and attention,

00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:53.079
but I cannot think for a moment that he does

00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:58.619
not become affected by it. He is constantly being

00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:02.000
deferred to. He is constantly, if Lindberg shows

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:05.260
up at a bank, you can bet that the president's

00:38:05.260 --> 00:38:07.659
going to invite him to have lunch with him and

00:38:07.659 --> 00:38:11.030
sit down and talk to him. And Lindbergh is going

00:38:11.030 --> 00:38:14.190
to be looked upon by foreign governments wherever

00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:20.050
he goes as an important person. And as a result,

00:38:20.309 --> 00:38:24.309
you know, I mean Lindbergh was certainly well

00:38:24.309 --> 00:38:27.710
connected. He got to observe events in Europe

00:38:27.710 --> 00:38:31.849
at first hand. He came to some interesting conclusions

00:38:31.849 --> 00:38:35.849
we'll get into later. Lindbergh's father, as

00:38:35.849 --> 00:38:38.650
we mentioned at the opening, was a congressman.

00:38:38.969 --> 00:38:40.869
And as a child he used to play in Capitol Hill.

00:38:40.929 --> 00:38:43.730
This is not the average American person here

00:38:43.730 --> 00:38:48.510
who's doing this. He marries Anne Morrow, whose

00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:50.750
father was a partner in the House of Morgan.

00:38:50.929 --> 00:38:52.969
Again, the House of Morgan. An ambassador to

00:38:52.969 --> 00:38:56.190
Mexico and also an intimate of President Calvin

00:38:56.190 --> 00:38:59.389
Coolidge. You can't get much better than this

00:38:59.389 --> 00:39:03.130
as far as being. socially prominent or politically

00:39:03.130 --> 00:39:06.210
prominent. He's a best -selling author. His book,

00:39:06.429 --> 00:39:10.349
We, which was his initial stab of, We referred

00:39:10.349 --> 00:39:15.929
to him in his aircraft, was a best -selling book.

00:39:17.250 --> 00:39:20.429
He was awarded the Medal of Honor and the Distinguished

00:39:20.429 --> 00:39:23.449
Flying Cross by his father -in -law's best friend,

00:39:23.650 --> 00:39:25.829
Calvin Coolidge. Lindbergh was always a welcome

00:39:25.829 --> 00:39:29.039
presence wherever he went. He was always interested

00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.500
in aviation developments when he was abroad here.

00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:36.340
While in Nazi Germany, this would come back to

00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:39.460
haunt him in a big way, he received the Order

00:39:39.460 --> 00:39:42.460
of the German Eagle from no less than Hermann

00:39:42.460 --> 00:39:46.420
Goring. And Lindbergh was not the sort of person

00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:48.420
who, you know, at this point when he's getting

00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:51.099
this in the 30s, Lindbergh has gotten so many

00:39:51.099 --> 00:39:54.000
freaking decorations, this is just like one more

00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.900
ornament on the Christmas tree as far as he's

00:39:55.900 --> 00:39:59.460
concerned. Other people would say that when Lindbergh

00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:02.960
became more of a pronounced isolationist, this

00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:05.460
decoration would haunt him in the sense that

00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:08.039
people would assume that he'd been bought by

00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.119
this decoration. Lindbergh put it in his pocket

00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:13.559
and didn't really think about it, and I'm not

00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:16.320
even sure he was aware of what it was, because

00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.000
this was just not the sort of thing he cared

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:21.500
about. Now, a new carburetor or a new engine

00:40:21.500 --> 00:40:23.559
on an aircraft, yeah, that would get his attention,

00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:28.440
but a new decoration that that was not his thing

00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:32.500
here. That was not what he was interested in

00:40:32.500 --> 00:40:36.559
doing here. But like I said, a lot of accusations

00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:39.059
would say this is how the Nazis brought Lindbergh

00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:41.300
into the tent. When did Göring give him the award?

00:40:41.619 --> 00:40:45.800
I want to say it would be like 36. He was on

00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.159
a tour of Germany and they were at some event

00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:53.579
and Göring actually gave him the award at the

00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:56.440
event. You know, and this was the order of the

00:40:56.440 --> 00:41:01.260
German Eagle. But again, Lindberg had, you know,

00:41:01.420 --> 00:41:05.199
a whole closet full of medals and awards and

00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:08.260
citations he'd gotten from other countries. Critics

00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:13.159
of Lindberg would say this medal made him the

00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:17.940
tool of Nazi Germany. Lindberg is not going to

00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:22.980
emerge from this. as a praiseworthy figure, very

00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:25.159
deeply flawed, but there are certain accusations,

00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:27.800
which I'm going to say were probably not fair

00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.800
at all in terms of how you characterized him.

00:41:31.739 --> 00:41:34.280
One thing that Lindbergh got away with, just

00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:37.440
because of his status, Lindbergh was assumed

00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:41.340
to have insight into military capabilities by

00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:44.179
leading figures around the world. Any time Lindbergh

00:41:44.179 --> 00:41:47.440
shows up somewhere, be it Capitol Hill, be it

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:52.389
at a bank, or any place else, they want to sit

00:41:52.389 --> 00:41:55.190
around and talk about military affairs and military

00:41:55.190 --> 00:41:58.750
strategy. And if you look at Lindbergh's diaries,

00:41:59.329 --> 00:42:01.969
Lindbergh just, he understands characteristics

00:42:01.969 --> 00:42:05.130
and performance of aircraft probably better than

00:42:05.130 --> 00:42:08.070
anybody else. He could basically look and they'd

00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:10.050
show him an engine and he would be able to deduce

00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:12.650
this is what this is going to enable to happen

00:42:12.650 --> 00:42:15.570
here. What he doesn't understand about the other,

00:42:15.670 --> 00:42:17.570
he doesn't really understand about anything once

00:42:17.570 --> 00:42:20.349
you get him beyond aviation. But he was given

00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:22.690
credit for having insight into these things.

00:42:22.909 --> 00:42:25.250
He doesn't really understand sea power if you

00:42:25.250 --> 00:42:26.769
look at some of the things that he's talking

00:42:26.769 --> 00:42:29.690
about in his diaries. He doesn't really understand

00:42:29.690 --> 00:42:35.829
land forces at all. He doesn't really seem capable

00:42:35.829 --> 00:42:38.929
of assessing change that could occur as a result

00:42:38.929 --> 00:42:43.050
of wartime. in terms of production. He's basically

00:42:43.050 --> 00:42:46.230
assuming, okay, what I'm observing here is gonna

00:42:46.230 --> 00:42:48.909
be a straight line. There's not gonna be any

00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:53.650
difference or alterations in what this particular

00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:56.449
country can accomplish in terms of aircraft production

00:42:56.449 --> 00:43:00.500
or even innovation in the future. I mean... Things

00:43:00.500 --> 00:43:03.579
that happened in aviation during World War II

00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:07.260
are nothing short of amazing. You start off with

00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:10.159
relatively primitive planes and you end up with

00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:13.880
jets. This is probably not something that Lindbergh

00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:16.699
could have envisioned here, but again he is given

00:43:16.699 --> 00:43:20.280
credit for having extraordinary insights into

00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:23.880
all aspects of war. Now Lindbergh's understanding

00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:28.340
of himself as this military authority is going

00:43:28.340 --> 00:43:32.599
to cloud his ideas for how and what would happen

00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:36.139
during World War II, as we will see. He's not

00:43:36.139 --> 00:43:40.639
really a strategy guy. He thought that the war

00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:43.360
would begin in the Eastern Mediterranean, not

00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:46.380
on the Western Front. He felt like that was where

00:43:46.380 --> 00:43:49.920
the initial stages would happen. I don't know

00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:53.260
why he would imagine that. Involving who? Britain,

00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:56.559
Germany, Italy, France, they'd all be fighting

00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:58.780
this out in the eastern Mediterranean. There

00:43:58.780 --> 00:44:02.559
were colonies there, but I'm just not clear as

00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:07.340
to why you would imagine this. World War I started

00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:09.219
in the Balkans, so maybe he's thinking history

00:44:09.219 --> 00:44:12.539
will repeat itself, rhyme in some way when it'll

00:44:12.539 --> 00:44:14.460
start in that same general area again, I don't

00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:16.960
know. I don't know either and I mean you know

00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:19.800
when I came across this I actually found some

00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:23.579
books on Lindbergh that I looked at and they

00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:26.340
cite his diaries and I found excerpts from the

00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.199
diaries and it's basically like this is where

00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.099
I'm getting my understanding of his beliefs.

00:44:31.179 --> 00:44:34.500
It's what he wrote down and what other biographers

00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:39.920
have seen fit to cite subsequently. We're going

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:44.440
to come back to Lindbergh later on but Let's

00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:46.820
go back to the United States and see what's happening

00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:50.960
politically over there. Back in the United States,

00:44:51.219 --> 00:44:54.179
by about 1934, particularly when the banks stopped

00:44:54.179 --> 00:44:57.340
failing, the economy is stabilized. It's not

00:44:57.340 --> 00:45:01.340
good. We still have one third of the nation ill

00:45:01.340 --> 00:45:03.360
-housed and ill -fed in the words of Franklin

00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:08.519
Roosevelt. But things had stopped going downward.

00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:12.059
The term America First is being embraced by a

00:45:12.059 --> 00:45:15.659
whole host of anti -New Deal organizations and

00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:20.639
foes. Now I'm just going to admit a bias towards

00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.559
Roosevelt and I'm going to say fortunately none

00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:27.789
of these critics Had the means of being able

00:45:27.789 --> 00:45:30.550
to channeling this content into a single organizational

00:45:30.550 --> 00:45:33.090
effort. We're going to see throughout thirties.

00:45:33.130 --> 00:45:36.150
One of the, you know, it's not so much to quote

00:45:36.150 --> 00:45:40.769
Gore Vidal, the guy whose essay, the United States

00:45:40.769 --> 00:45:43.389
of Amnesia gives this podcast its name. It is

00:45:43.389 --> 00:45:45.610
not so much for people to succeed, but others

00:45:45.610 --> 00:45:50.070
must fail. And in the case of FDRs foes, people

00:45:50.070 --> 00:45:54.849
failed spectacularly, at least through the early

00:45:54.849 --> 00:45:59.809
part of the 1930s. So this lack of a coherent

00:45:59.809 --> 00:46:04.610
opposition was really good for FDR and for promulgating

00:46:04.610 --> 00:46:10.230
the programs of the New Deal. But these forces

00:46:10.230 --> 00:46:12.789
would reconstitute themselves over and over again,

00:46:13.369 --> 00:46:15.630
and this would lead up to the, they would be

00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:18.730
kind of precursors to the America First Committee,

00:46:19.369 --> 00:46:21.170
which we're going to look at towards the end

00:46:21.170 --> 00:46:24.960
of of this particular podcast and kind of will

00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:28.440
be the focus of it. The ideas and what they represented

00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.659
might have lacked an organization to give them

00:46:31.659 --> 00:46:36.420
real structure, but these are kind of ideas that

00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:40.539
we saw in the 20s and would see perpetuated in

00:46:40.539 --> 00:46:43.579
the 30s by a host of different organizations

00:46:43.579 --> 00:47:07.710
and different focuses there. So the America First

00:47:07.710 --> 00:47:13.070
idea becomes opposed to the New Deal. It is opposed

00:47:13.070 --> 00:47:15.690
to the New Deal, and there's a lot of reasons

00:47:15.690 --> 00:47:17.309
that they're opposed to the New Deal. I mean,

00:47:17.650 --> 00:47:19.989
one of the things that's interesting, and I mean,

00:47:20.530 --> 00:47:21.969
I know we're not supposed to be talking about

00:47:21.969 --> 00:47:25.150
literature, but John O 'Hara has a great story

00:47:25.150 --> 00:47:30.449
about a guy who at Harvard was denied admission

00:47:30.449 --> 00:47:33.360
to one of the more exclusive clubs there. He

00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:35.360
is either Catholic or Jewish, it's not clear,

00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:41.239
but he has risen in substance in the New Deal,

00:47:41.980 --> 00:47:44.199
in the organization. Roosevelt is alluded to,

00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.820
he's referred to as the boss in the story. And

00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:50.900
he's having lunch with a friend who's kind of

00:47:50.900 --> 00:47:53.179
fallen on hard times, and he needs this job.

00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:57.300
He's one of the old elites, the old order that,

00:47:57.300 --> 00:48:01.760
you know, had been kind of displaced. by the

00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.780
high taxes that Roosevelt is imposing in order

00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:07.659
to pay for the New Deal. He needs a government

00:48:07.659 --> 00:48:12.900
job. He basically is coming to the sky on bended

00:48:12.900 --> 00:48:17.360
knee and then at a certain point in the story

00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:20.320
he reverts to type and basically tells him that

00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.300
he would never have been able, he never belonged

00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:27.119
really at a place like Harvard or in this particular

00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:31.239
club. And thereby, guess what? He doesn't get

00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:34.199
the job that he desperately needs. And what O

00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:37.280
'Hara is saying is that these people who are

00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.059
assisting on these class distinctions are doing

00:48:39.059 --> 00:48:44.000
so to their detriment. But let's look at America

00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:46.880
First organizations themselves. There is one

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:49.019
called America First, and this is distinct from

00:48:49.019 --> 00:48:52.460
the anti -involvement in World War II organization,

00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:56.900
and this is by a guy named James True. And his

00:48:56.900 --> 00:49:01.010
goal was to expose the propaganda and subversion

00:49:01.010 --> 00:49:04.030
that was being conducted by FDR and the New Deal.

00:49:05.449 --> 00:49:08.789
He believed that this was a way of getting us

00:49:08.789 --> 00:49:11.929
to socialism and communism through the back door

00:49:11.929 --> 00:49:19.000
here. So we also have a leading New Deal critic,

00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:22.800
Father Coughlin, the radio priest. Now initially

00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:27.039
Coughlin is a supporter of Roosevelt in 1932,

00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:33.280
but because New Deal policies had undermined

00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:37.599
his economic portfolio, Father Coughlin became

00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:44.500
absolutely rabid as opposed to the New Deal.

00:49:44.699 --> 00:49:48.219
Then, as now, we have members of the clergy who

00:49:48.219 --> 00:49:51.579
seek to serve both Caesar and God, and Father

00:49:51.579 --> 00:49:53.960
Coughlin was one of them. Coughlin was kind of

00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:58.760
like the Tucker Carlson of the day, without urging

00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.159
followers to tan their testicles. Coughlin's

00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:04.559
obsession was a fight against what he called

00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:09.230
the Judeal, or his term for FDR's New Deal. And

00:50:09.230 --> 00:50:11.110
he had a huge listenership, didn't he? Yes, he

00:50:11.110 --> 00:50:15.030
did. And he didn't. And he initially was on CBS,

00:50:15.289 --> 00:50:19.110
and he was kicked off CBS because he became increasingly

00:50:19.110 --> 00:50:23.489
controversial. And they felt uncomfortable with

00:50:23.489 --> 00:50:26.150
this. And he was able to cobble together, because

00:50:26.150 --> 00:50:32.590
of his own popularity, a sort of like ersatz

00:50:32.590 --> 00:50:38.559
network, kind of a syndication effort. that allowed

00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:42.619
him to maintain a national presence until eventually

00:50:42.619 --> 00:50:45.880
his superiors just said enough is enough, you're

00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.579
a priest, you're not supposed to be going on

00:50:47.579 --> 00:50:51.039
there and discussing politics here. This is not

00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:55.019
part of your pastoral mission. But he had been

00:50:55.019 --> 00:50:58.739
very successful. He had kind of managed to raise

00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:02.079
a lot of money for his church up in Detroit.

00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:06.809
He was Canadian. which kind of limited his ability

00:51:06.809 --> 00:51:10.650
to be able to participate in U .S. politics.

00:51:11.349 --> 00:51:13.570
So he could not, you know, there was a lot of

00:51:13.570 --> 00:51:16.329
talk about trying to come up with somebody to

00:51:16.329 --> 00:51:21.860
oppose FDR. One person in the 1936 election That

00:51:21.860 --> 00:51:23.900
person was not going to be Father Coughlin because

00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:25.800
he was Canadian, he was foreign born, and he

00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:28.099
couldn't run. That would have been kind of interesting

00:51:28.099 --> 00:51:31.019
to see a priest run for president, but this was

00:51:31.019 --> 00:51:34.380
something people did entertain as an idea until

00:51:34.380 --> 00:51:36.920
they realized this was impossible constitutionally.

00:51:38.219 --> 00:51:41.039
So the the New Deal he called? The Jew Deal.

00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:43.699
The Jew Deal. And so here we are again. Yes.

00:51:44.059 --> 00:51:47.260
Where that's, you know, Jews are somehow foreign,

00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:49.820
not really American. Yep. Now we're combining

00:51:49.820 --> 00:51:51.500
that with this whole thing about, you know, I

00:51:51.500 --> 00:51:53.579
guess I suppose the old trope, they control the

00:51:53.579 --> 00:51:55.719
money. Yeah, whatever. Well, now they control

00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:59.219
the government. And and apparently FDR is a secret

00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:01.000
Jew controlling the government, right, as we

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.920
talked about earlier and all this stuff. Right.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:07.639
So it's yeah. More things change the more they

00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:10.380
say the same. Well, you see, you see what we're

00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:13.320
seeing here, I mean, if we're looking at kind

00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:19.389
of a focus for like hostility towards, say, immigrants

00:52:19.389 --> 00:52:23.389
or people who are not Americans of long standing

00:52:23.389 --> 00:52:27.469
here. It's kind of kind of spoken like today.

00:52:28.389 --> 00:52:32.170
It's people from Latin America. Back in the 30s,

00:52:32.829 --> 00:52:34.849
nobody even thought about this as a problem.

00:52:34.989 --> 00:52:37.690
Nobody thought that, okay, we're having people

00:52:37.690 --> 00:52:42.440
from Central and South America. Coming here so

00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.159
that's gonna be a problem as we talked about

00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.179
before the immigration acts didn't restrict.

00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:50.380
No, it didn't it's it and it you know, it didn't

00:52:50.380 --> 00:52:54.000
you know and There was there wasn't an issue

00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:58.360
with that back then what the issue was was Europe,

00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:02.659
you know people who now would be regarded somewhat

00:53:02.659 --> 00:53:05.699
innocuously were seen to be the threat that were

00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:07.860
undermining the American way, American culture,

00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:12.559
etc. If anything, if anything, just given prominent

00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:15.820
people who were Jewish at the time, someone like

00:53:15.820 --> 00:53:18.400
Irving Berlin, who's Jewish, he writes, God bless

00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:23.039
America. So How more patriotic can you be with

00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:25.460
a song entitled God Bless America? Yet these

00:53:25.460 --> 00:53:27.380
people are insisting that people that are Jewish

00:53:27.380 --> 00:53:30.880
are somehow not as good and not as loyal. But

00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:33.360
you have this, you know, as an example. It doesn't

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:35.699
matter how much evidence there is to the contrary.

00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:36.840
They're just going to believe what they're going

00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.800
to believe, aren't they? Yes. So in addition

00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:43.619
to Father Coughlin, we have Louisiana Senator

00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:48.940
and also Governor Huey Long. who was a more literate

00:53:48.940 --> 00:53:53.019
version of Donald Trump. To Huey Long's credit,

00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:58.119
he was able to get a law degree in under a year

00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:02.780
by basically just self -education. He was a great

00:54:02.780 --> 00:54:06.340
talker, great promiser, a real son of a bitch

00:54:06.340 --> 00:54:12.360
too. He also was not above using using all sorts

00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:15.239
of tropes to like scare people and to urge a

00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:19.800
kind of fascist approach to to to government.

00:54:20.539 --> 00:54:23.900
He relied on the support of a grieved, ignorant

00:54:23.900 --> 00:54:27.440
rural America to win him support and he was well

00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:30.800
on his way to establishing a national organization,

00:54:30.980 --> 00:54:32.699
the share our wealth organization, which was

00:54:32.699 --> 00:54:35.380
kind of socialist because he was going to go

00:54:35.380 --> 00:54:38.420
in and liquidate private fortunes. Anybody who

00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:40.519
had more than five million dollars was out of

00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:44.460
luck. Kind of a contrast to Trump there. But

00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:47.920
everybody was going to have a house, a car, and

00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:51.599
a radio. They were going to be insured that as

00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.159
a sort of minimum amount of property that this

00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:57.000
liquidation of great fortunes was going to bring

00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:02.119
about. His goal was to split the Democratic Party

00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:05.679
between himself and Roosevelt to ensure the election

00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:09.760
of a Republican in 1936. Long felt that if you

00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:11.360
brought in a Republican he was just going to

00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:15.500
screw up the Depression further and then by 1940,

00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:19.380
if not before, people would be ready for a change

00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:22.840
and by before that meant that you could have

00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:27.340
him leading a somewhat violent revolution. Long

00:55:27.340 --> 00:55:30.119
famously said that if that he fully expected

00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:32.199
the cap US Capitol this is when he's senator

00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:35.699
that was going to be attacked by you know angry

00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:39.739
mobs and his big problem was whether he was going

00:55:39.739 --> 00:55:44.079
to stay in the Senate or go out and join them.

00:55:45.029 --> 00:55:47.289
So again, we have a lot of Trumpian elements

00:55:47.289 --> 00:55:51.679
in Huey Long here. Huey Long was killed by his

00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:54.739
bodyguards during an assassination attempt. They

00:55:54.739 --> 00:55:56.719
were not attempting to assassinate him. They

00:55:56.719 --> 00:55:58.960
were literally the gang that couldn't shoot straight,

00:55:58.980 --> 00:56:01.079
and they ended up shooting Huey Long instead

00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:05.599
of his assassin. He got killed, too. When I was

00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:07.739
a child, when we go to state capital, I still

00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:10.300
had the bullet holes in the marble walls of Louisiana

00:56:10.300 --> 00:56:13.619
state capital, and you can go over and look at

00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:19.469
them. They didn't bother to take them out. His

00:56:19.469 --> 00:56:23.809
passing kind of left a huge gap in the opposition

00:56:23.809 --> 00:56:28.829
to Roosevelt It's interesting to me to hear you

00:56:28.829 --> 00:56:32.150
talk about Huey Long and what he wanted to do

00:56:32.150 --> 00:56:34.710
For people supposedly right? Yeah, what was it

00:56:34.710 --> 00:56:38.250
a radio and what else radio a house? I was car

00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:40.230
on a car. Everybody gets one. Everybody gets

00:56:40.230 --> 00:56:43.829
one. What's kind of interesting there is In these

00:56:43.829 --> 00:56:45.730
right -wing movements. Yeah, you see it over

00:56:45.730 --> 00:56:48.639
and over again even though they're so Opposed

00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:52.079
to socialism. There nonetheless is a socialistic

00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.500
aspect to it, right? They're gonna give everybody

00:56:54.500 --> 00:56:56.199
things. Yeah. Now, I'm sure they're only gonna

00:56:56.199 --> 00:56:58.119
give it to people they approve of. Yeah. Not

00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:00.739
really everybody, right? But they're gonna give

00:57:00.739 --> 00:57:04.019
people things, I guess, for free. Yeah. You know,

00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:07.139
in this case, which, you know, it's this incoherent

00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:11.420
mindset, right? I'm gonna get a car. Yeah, well,

00:57:11.500 --> 00:57:12.780
I'm gonna get but I mean I'm gonna give you one

00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:14.639
even though I'm against socialism Yeah, right.

00:57:14.820 --> 00:57:17.860
Well, he wasn't necessarily against socialism,

00:57:17.860 --> 00:57:19.980
but he called it something else This is getting

00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.679
to my point though, right? You often hear right

00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:23.400
-wingers talk about they're against socialism,

00:57:23.559 --> 00:57:24.940
right? And we've talked we've talked a lot about

00:57:24.940 --> 00:57:29.559
in this pot here about how This you know socialism

00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:31.719
was this strange European thing that was gonna

00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:33.820
undermine America and everything, right? And

00:57:33.820 --> 00:57:35.280
yet there are certain aspects of it that they

00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:37.699
keep embracing over and over again with populist

00:57:37.699 --> 00:57:40.500
movements with populist movements and You know

00:57:40.500 --> 00:57:42.340
people get tired of people comparing to Nazis

00:57:42.340 --> 00:57:44.659
and things and I'm not saying Huey Long was a

00:57:44.659 --> 00:57:46.400
Nazi But it's interesting when you think about

00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:49.179
that that the Nazis party's name is National

00:57:49.179 --> 00:57:52.940
Socialist German Workers Party, right? NSDAP

00:57:52.940 --> 00:57:55.460
was there they you got socialist in there. You

00:57:55.460 --> 00:57:58.320
got workers in there, right? Yeah, that's not

00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:00.340
socialism in the leftist sense, but it's a kind

00:58:00.340 --> 00:58:02.619
of socialism where it's like we're for the workers

00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:07.659
and we're gonna give them things, but on a nationalist

00:58:07.659 --> 00:58:10.320
basis, in their case, right? Nationalists, which

00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:12.340
means that we're gonna do these things, but for

00:58:12.340 --> 00:58:15.280
a certain group of people in our country. The

00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.639
good, right -living people. The good, right -living

00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:20.639
people who, well, look like us and think we approve

00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:22.579
of. We're gonna do these socialistic things,

00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:25.900
but only for them, and that makes it okay. Yes.

00:58:26.500 --> 00:58:30.800
Well, my favorite historian, who a lot of...

00:58:30.829 --> 00:58:33.530
A lot of left -wing historians don't like him,

00:58:33.849 --> 00:58:37.650
but I have become a born -again fan of Richard

00:58:37.650 --> 00:58:41.469
Hofstadter, who looked at various movements.

00:58:41.570 --> 00:58:43.929
I mean, there are things that Hofstadter kind

00:58:43.929 --> 00:58:46.989
of talks about, like what we're talking about

00:58:46.989 --> 00:58:51.030
today, not anything directly. But Hofstadter

00:58:51.030 --> 00:58:55.289
really hates populist movements. And for him,

00:58:55.530 --> 00:58:59.840
populist movements are things like the Nazis.

00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:03.840
That is kind of his template. And he's also looking

00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:08.039
at proponents of the Red Scare, also populist.

00:59:08.619 --> 00:59:11.219
Where Hofstadter gets into a lot of trouble with

00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:14.960
left -wing historians is that there is the sort

00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:20.139
of populist movement that happened in the 1890s,

00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:24.300
which starts out well and good and an intent

00:59:24.300 --> 00:59:29.440
on helping everybody. but then it becomes increasingly

00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:34.820
anti -semitic and racist, and his conclusion

00:59:34.820 --> 00:59:37.260
is that this is where these movements eventually

00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:40.460
end up. They end up going in this direction,

00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:44.679
and he makes a big distinction between movements

00:59:44.679 --> 00:59:51.300
like that and progressive movements, which are

00:59:51.300 --> 00:59:54.860
about institutions, which are about, you know,

00:59:55.179 --> 01:00:00.820
maintaining and reforming civilization or society.

01:00:01.420 --> 01:00:08.159
And so he would have a problem, say, with these

01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:12.960
populist movements and populism. He had no problem

01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:14.820
with progressivism. He had no problem with the

01:00:14.820 --> 01:00:20.849
New Deal. He saw this as like on a sound legal

01:00:20.849 --> 01:00:25.150
basis and it doesn't necessarily depend upon

01:00:25.150 --> 01:00:29.010
emotional reactions from people to further its

01:00:29.010 --> 01:00:32.590
goals there. And I think these are things to

01:00:32.590 --> 01:00:36.050
keep in mind as big distinctions when you're

01:00:36.050 --> 01:00:39.309
looking at how certain movements operate and

01:00:39.309 --> 01:00:45.150
what they are about here. That's it for this

01:00:45.150 --> 01:00:48.210
episode of the United States of Amnesia. Thank

01:00:48.210 --> 01:00:50.829
you for listening. We hope you learned something,

01:00:51.030 --> 01:00:52.949
and we hope you discovered new ways of looking

01:00:52.949 --> 01:00:55.829
at things you had already heard or thought about,

01:00:56.230 --> 01:00:59.530
or perhaps hadn't heard about. If you enjoyed

01:00:59.530 --> 01:01:02.510
it, that's great. If we made you mad, that's

01:01:02.510 --> 01:01:07.349
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01:01:07.349 --> 01:01:10.030
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01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:13.300
Also, let us know about anything you think we

01:01:13.300 --> 01:01:15.460
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01:01:15.460 --> 01:01:19.400
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01:01:28.059 --> 01:01:32.639
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01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:32.900
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